Quality work. I have great appreciation for any craftsperson who take pride in their work. It shows. Great tips. I taper and router the edge just ever so slightly to soften that edge. Time consuming, yet makes for such a much more walkable surface.
@@mikecrepeau2956 I love that. Great way to do it!! Definitely more than one way to do it... But the end result is what matters. I'm seeing a lot of fly-by-night installs lately.... It's disappointing. Nice to know there's still fellow artists out there 😎
Nice work! We like to round over the edges of the field boards with a router and touch up the edges with color match paint which allowed us to keep the caps consistent. I do like the tight look too
Thank you for sharing your tips and tricks. Looks great. I am picture framing my composite deck and this info greatly benifits my personal project. Thank you very much.
How do you ensure such small tolerances like 3/64 don't move over time, especially with pressure treated framing? I've recently framed my deck, planed everything to near level perfection. One month in the sun and the joists were again out of whack. Not much, but definitely more than a 64th tolerance. I love the precision and the look, I just want to get some advice before I go and shim things to such tolerances. We have 10F to 100F temp variation through the year. Thank you.
First of all, excellent point about raising the breaker board 3/64”. Not only is it more comfortable to not catch a fingernail or toe on, but in the northern latitudes, we often run a snow shovel on decks/porches, and guess where the edge of the shovel catches, thus damaging the square-edged board?!? Ugh! I have expensive Trex Transcends, too… Anyway, wish mine had been done this way. I wanted to ask you… Do you have any kind of issues with expansion and contraction when making those picture-frame butt joints so tight? The installation guides for the composite deck manufacturers recommend various spacing, depending upon whether you’re butting end-to-end, end-to-side, or end/side to fixed structure (i.e., house, etc.), so thought I’d see if you’ve had issues with buckling or anything. Along those same lines, I know others out there discourage miter joints w/ composites because you can spend forever making them look great at install, but then the gap in the first few days due to expansion/contraction. Tips there?!? Some pay attention and adjust things based on install temp even. Yikes!
Addressed this question a dozen times.... Scroll through comments to get more details 😉 Short version is yes, adjust gap for temp. This was installed in July around 100 degrees. About as got as it gets here. I'm very hesitant to install decks in winter for that reason. It is possible, but never ideal. Tight miter in the summer will have a gap in the winter. Sloppy miter in the summer will have a bigger gap in the winter. Big enough to lose a toy poodle I imagine
PS I never Butt end to end except for splices on cap rail. I have a separate tutorial video on that. I never get the "cheap" jobs. I explain to my customers why that center breaker is worth the extra hundred bucks. If they really want to save money and do Butt joints in the field, I won't be the guy installing it.
Us fellow perfectionist appreciate you sharing your tips! One question: what do you do for the outside boards for the picture frame. They run parallel with the decking so, you don't need them to be shimmed for comfort... but I see you shimmed under them at the miter to make sure that joint is nice and clean (which makes sense). Do you place shims down the rim joist for that outside board? Or do skip the shims and just screw the board down b/c the height difference isn't very noticeable.
Good question! Don't really "need" to shim outside picture frame, as you noted. I plane down rim joist and joists during framing process just to make sure everything is flush. So theoretically that outside board would be the same elevation as the next course in. Butttttt....since I picked up the perpendicular side of picture frame, I do match that height underneath the miter on both sides. Usually just 12" away is fine... you don't need to shim the whole length of rim joist in my opinion. The only challenge there is getting fascia tight to the underside of outside picture frame (because it has a very slight dip in it now).... composite fascia is malleable enough to clamp tight
Your work is absolutely killer. I'm a contractor but not one who does decks, so I'm building one in my backyard with a very challenging grade etc and really taking my time. I'm in Toronto, 80 degree heat right now, and I've done entire picture frame first and decided to piece boards in after. Do I need a gap at ends or not? And what would your method be make sure boards have a nice clean cut line all the way up the picture frame. Seeing as the picture frame is in I can't do the "hang them off slightly and then track saw them all at once" method. Also don't want to measuring fifty times and going back to the mitre saw for a million trips per board. Thanks for any input and congrats on your brilliant work.
Hey Cameron, thanks for checking it out and I appreciate the compliment! #1 - end gaps..... Depends on your material as well as highest temperature during the year. There's a few other comments on here to that effect - you can read those replies too... But in a nutshell.... Redwood/ cedar decking expand and contract with humidity, not so much temperature. Composite decking reacts to temperature, not so much humidity. Some brands react more than others..... I've noticed that timbertech vintage is pretty stable compared to cheaper brands. If it doesn't get much hotter than 80, you'll be OK keeping it tight. I'm not sure if there's an official calculation for it, but my rule of thumb is 1/16" per 10 degrees. So if your max temp is around 100 but you're installing in 80 degrees... Leave 1/8" gap. #2 - process.... Now you see why I do picture frame last 😉 track saw method saves a lot of trips to the miter saw like you said. But you might run into an even bigger challenge than that..... If the picture frame isn't PERFECTLY square you're going to need a miter on each end of the field boards. Very tedious but also introduces a lot of room for error. Let's say you have a 10×16 deck and picture frame is 1/16 out of square.... You'll need a 0.34 degree miter on every end. Doesn't seem like much, but a 90 degree cut would leave a noticeable triangular gap. Track saw method eliminates that issue. Even if frame is slightly out of square, you're making a single cut down each side that keeps decking parallel to frame..... Then you only have to mess with that 0.34 degree cut once on your outside miters. Rework sucks but that's honestly my recommendation. Remove the legs at least (you could probably keep the outside piece of frame) Hope that helps and good luck!
@@majorwoodcraft9736 Man, I can't thank you enough for your insightful advice. I waffled back and forth about ten times re picture frame before or after or halfway. I might just take up the one side of picture frame and pivot to other method. Its not that tough really. Back plugs out and unfasten. Thanks again, really appreciate taking the time out of your day.
@cameronhurst9432 I think that's wise. Not a huge setback like you said.... easier to fix now. Shoot me some pictures when it's done. I'd love to see the finished result. Cheers man
Correct. Composite expands in the heat and contracts in the cold. Weather was 95+ degrees that week, so I made joints as tight as possible. It rarely gets hotter than 105 in my region, so that material is already expanded as much as ever will. Winter installation does require a small gap. Tight joints installed cold can ""blister"" in the heat as they expand. Good question Brandon
Hope it helps! I like 2-3° on that bevel. Leaves a very small gap on the bottom of material, but gets that top very tight. It depends on the material you're using though. I like timbertech - last several jobs were vintage series.
how many degrees did you bevel the main deck boards and where did you get your shims? thank you, good tips! im right at the blocking design for my picture framing.
Shims were ripped on a table saw from scrap decking. Little more control over the thickness that way. You could use any kind of thin plastic honestly. Wouldn't recommend wood though - something that thin would deteriorate quickly so you'd get some sinking. 2 degree bevel on the perpendicular decking
You could spend a little more time on your frame ensuring it’s square and make sure your first boards at the house are chalk lined square in relation to your outer deck frame, then check the fields of decking from that chalk line as your laying them down every 5 or 6 boards (making sure your pulling the same measurement from the last board you laid back to the chalk line) so they don’t walk 64th by 64th and push your picture frame out of square so you don’t have to adjust the angles of your miters off of a perfect 45, also when you finish your picture frame/zipper blocking check it with a level or square for flatness. Take a power planer and knock down any knots or high spots that will end up pushing then ends of deck boards above your zipper/picture frame. Saves a lot of time to front load that kind of work at the foundation/frame rather than tinker after the fact.
Sheesh. You chalk line runs for 64ths? Weird. What's the point in having a perfectly square frame in that case 🙃 My frame was 1/8 out on a 70 foot diagonal. Your house isn't even close to that
I spent about 3 days on chalk lines and layout for upper level. FYI. Cantilever beam and cantilever joists. So there's a few variables there. Honestly getting sick of replying to stupid comments. I started this channel to help people learn. Seems I have nothing to teach. Let's see yours buddy. The last one you built by yourself. And I literally mean.... By yourself.
@@majorwoodcraft9736 as your laying each board down they can compound by a 64th.. after 5 or six it adds up and pushes your corners out of square or pooches in the middle
those tight miters on the corners will fail due to expansion/ contraction... when the boards get hot and expand they will push laterally at the 45 and shear the screws off at framing
It was installed in 105 degree weather. Doesn't get much hotter here. In the winter I leave a gap. Appreciate the input but next time you might ask for missing information FIRST 😊
Quality work. I have great appreciation for any craftsperson who take pride in their work. It shows. Great tips. I taper and router the edge just ever so slightly to soften that edge. Time consuming, yet makes for such a much more walkable surface.
@@mikecrepeau2956 I love that. Great way to do it!! Definitely more than one way to do it... But the end result is what matters. I'm seeing a lot of fly-by-night installs lately.... It's disappointing. Nice to know there's still fellow artists out there 😎
Nice work! We like to round over the edges of the field boards with a router and touch up the edges with color match paint which allowed us to keep the caps consistent. I do like the tight look too
Nice! Not a bad way to do it!
Thank you for sharing your tips and tricks. Looks great. I am picture framing my composite deck and this info greatly benifits my personal project. Thank you very much.
Glad to hear it! Love watching people get the project possible. Thanks Mark!
Looks nice thanks for the tip. It always helps to learn better ways to do picture frame layouts. Much applause 👏.
Thanks michael!
Thanks for the video, finally a video that actually shows exactly what is needed. Great work
Thanks MG! hope it helps you on the next project 👍
What brand and series of deck material is this? I’ve been looking at the mineral based decking from dekorators.
The devil is in the details. Great tips! Thanks for sharing.
How do you ensure such small tolerances like 3/64 don't move over time, especially with pressure treated framing? I've recently framed my deck, planed everything to near level perfection. One month in the sun and the joists were again out of whack. Not much, but definitely more than a 64th tolerance. I love the precision and the look, I just want to get some advice before I go and shim things to such tolerances. We have 10F to 100F temp variation through the year. Thank you.
First of all, excellent point about raising the breaker board 3/64”. Not only is it more comfortable to not catch a fingernail or toe on, but in the northern latitudes, we often run a snow shovel on decks/porches, and guess where the edge of the shovel catches, thus damaging the square-edged board?!? Ugh! I have expensive Trex Transcends, too… Anyway, wish mine had been done this way. I wanted to ask you… Do you have any kind of issues with expansion and contraction when making those picture-frame butt joints so tight? The installation guides for the composite deck manufacturers recommend various spacing, depending upon whether you’re butting end-to-end, end-to-side, or end/side to fixed structure (i.e., house, etc.), so thought I’d see if you’ve had issues with buckling or anything. Along those same lines, I know others out there discourage miter joints w/ composites because you can spend forever making them look great at install, but then the gap in the first few days due to expansion/contraction. Tips there?!? Some pay attention and adjust things based on install temp even. Yikes!
Addressed this question a dozen times.... Scroll through comments to get more details 😉
Short version is yes, adjust gap for temp. This was installed in July around 100 degrees. About as got as it gets here.
I'm very hesitant to install decks in winter for that reason. It is possible, but never ideal.
Tight miter in the summer will have a gap in the winter. Sloppy miter in the summer will have a bigger gap in the winter. Big enough to lose a toy poodle I imagine
PS I never Butt end to end except for splices on cap rail. I have a separate tutorial video on that.
I never get the "cheap" jobs. I explain to my customers why that center breaker is worth the extra hundred bucks. If they really want to save money and do Butt joints in the field, I won't be the guy installing it.
Thanks for this great video. What do you use for shims ?
Shims are ripped on table saw to desired thickness
Us fellow perfectionist appreciate you sharing your tips! One question: what do you do for the outside boards for the picture frame. They run parallel with the decking so, you don't need them to be shimmed for comfort... but I see you shimmed under them at the miter to make sure that joint is nice and clean (which makes sense). Do you place shims down the rim joist for that outside board? Or do skip the shims and just screw the board down b/c the height difference isn't very noticeable.
Good question!
Don't really "need" to shim outside picture frame, as you noted. I plane down rim joist and joists during framing process just to make sure everything is flush. So theoretically that outside board would be the same elevation as the next course in.
Butttttt....since I picked up the perpendicular side of picture frame, I do match that height underneath the miter on both sides. Usually just 12" away is fine... you don't need to shim the whole length of rim joist in my opinion.
The only challenge there is getting fascia tight to the underside of outside picture frame (because it has a very slight dip in it now).... composite fascia is malleable enough to clamp tight
PS....add a 1° bevel to those miters to compensate for the dip. Keeps the top of that joint super tight
Your work is absolutely killer. I'm a contractor but not one who does decks, so I'm building one in my backyard with a very challenging grade etc and really taking my time. I'm in Toronto, 80 degree heat right now, and I've done entire picture frame first and decided to piece boards in after. Do I need a gap at ends or not? And what would your method be make sure boards have a nice clean cut line all the way up the picture frame. Seeing as the picture frame is in I can't do the "hang them off slightly and then track saw them all at once" method. Also don't want to measuring fifty times and going back to the mitre saw for a million trips per board. Thanks for any input and congrats on your brilliant work.
Hey Cameron, thanks for checking it out and I appreciate the compliment!
#1 - end gaps..... Depends on your material as well as highest temperature during the year. There's a few other comments on here to that effect - you can read those replies too... But in a nutshell.... Redwood/ cedar decking expand and contract with humidity, not so much temperature. Composite decking reacts to temperature, not so much humidity. Some brands react more than others..... I've noticed that timbertech vintage is pretty stable compared to cheaper brands.
If it doesn't get much hotter than 80, you'll be OK keeping it tight. I'm not sure if there's an official calculation for it, but my rule of thumb is 1/16" per 10 degrees. So if your max temp is around 100 but you're installing in 80 degrees... Leave 1/8" gap.
#2 - process.... Now you see why I do picture frame last 😉 track saw method saves a lot of trips to the miter saw like you said. But you might run into an even bigger challenge than that..... If the picture frame isn't PERFECTLY square you're going to need a miter on each end of the field boards. Very tedious but also introduces a lot of room for error. Let's say you have a 10×16 deck and picture frame is 1/16 out of square.... You'll need a 0.34 degree miter on every end. Doesn't seem like much, but a 90 degree cut would leave a noticeable triangular gap.
Track saw method eliminates that issue. Even if frame is slightly out of square, you're making a single cut down each side that keeps decking parallel to frame..... Then you only have to mess with that 0.34 degree cut once on your outside miters.
Rework sucks but that's honestly my recommendation. Remove the legs at least (you could probably keep the outside piece of frame)
Hope that helps and good luck!
@@majorwoodcraft9736 Man, I can't thank you enough for your insightful advice. I waffled back and forth about ten times re picture frame before or after or halfway. I might just take up the one side of picture frame and pivot to other method. Its not that tough really. Back plugs out and unfasten. Thanks again, really appreciate taking the time out of your day.
@cameronhurst9432 I think that's wise. Not a huge setback like you said.... easier to fix now. Shoot me some pictures when it's done. I'd love to see the finished result.
Cheers man
@@majorwoodcraft9736 Will do for sure! But you must go easy. :)
I read to leave gaps in your joints depending on the temperature
Like the 45
If it were colder would
You leave a gap relevant to temp. ?
Correct. Composite expands in the heat and contracts in the cold. Weather was 95+ degrees that week, so I made joints as tight as possible. It rarely gets hotter than 105 in my region, so that material is already expanded as much as ever will.
Winter installation does require a small gap. Tight joints installed cold can ""blister"" in the heat as they expand.
Good question Brandon
What angle was your bevel cut? Thanks for the tips!
Hope it helps! I like 2-3° on that bevel. Leaves a very small gap on the bottom of material, but gets that top very tight.
It depends on the material you're using though. I like timbertech - last several jobs were vintage series.
how many degrees did you bevel the main deck boards and where did you get your shims? thank you, good tips! im right at the blocking design for my picture framing.
Shims were ripped on a table saw from scrap decking. Little more control over the thickness that way. You could use any kind of thin plastic honestly. Wouldn't recommend wood though - something that thin would deteriorate quickly so you'd get some sinking.
2 degree bevel on the perpendicular decking
@@majorwoodcraft9736 thanks, I really like the bevel idea!!
Cheers, glad it helped!
Arent you supposed to leave gaps even on the miter 45 for expansion?
Replied to that question at least 20 times now.
You could spend a little more time on your frame ensuring it’s square and make sure your first boards at the house are chalk lined square in relation to your outer deck frame, then check the fields of decking from that chalk line as your laying them down every 5 or 6 boards (making sure your pulling the same measurement from the last board you laid back to the chalk line) so they don’t walk 64th by 64th and push your picture frame out of square so you don’t have to adjust the angles of your miters off of a perfect 45, also when you finish your picture frame/zipper blocking check it with a level or square for flatness. Take a power planer and knock down any knots or high spots that will end up pushing then ends of deck boards above your zipper/picture frame. Saves a lot of time to front load that kind of work at the foundation/frame rather than tinker after the fact.
Sheesh. You chalk line runs for 64ths?
Weird. What's the point in having a perfectly square frame in that case 🙃
My frame was 1/8 out on a 70 foot diagonal. Your house isn't even close to that
I spent about 3 days on chalk lines and layout for upper level. FYI. Cantilever beam and cantilever joists. So there's a few variables there.
Honestly getting sick of replying to stupid comments. I started this channel to help people learn. Seems I have nothing to teach.
Let's see yours buddy. The last one you built by yourself. And I literally mean.... By yourself.
@@majorwoodcraft9736 as your laying each board down they can compound by a 64th.. after 5 or six it adds up and pushes your corners out of square or pooches in the middle
where do you get your 3/64 shim material?
Ripped on a table saw from scrap decking. You can set the thickness to whatever you want obviously. I just like using composite material versus wood
@@majorwoodcraft9736 I'm with you ... thx ...
@@user-kc4tg2jn9d yes sir!
You need to start being more careful with your fingers like you do your composite decking good man
You sound like my wife haha. Cheers man
Layout?
What is the question? Like how I planned framing? Or the picture frame design as a whole?
those tight miters on the corners will fail due to expansion/ contraction... when the boards get hot and expand they will push laterally at the 45 and shear the screws off at framing
It was installed in 105 degree weather. Doesn't get much hotter here. In the winter I leave a gap.
Appreciate the input but next time you might ask for missing information FIRST 😊
@@majorwoodcraft9736 of course
Want to show you my deck but can't for the life me figure out how to attach photos in these comments.
Shoot me an email brother. Excited to see results.
Nmajorwoodcraft@gmail.com
Finger nails anyone?
Its not a manicure tutorial 😉
Waste of time and energy ...