Why You Should Use Proxies | The MTG Proxy Controversy
Vložit
- čas přidán 28. 03. 2021
- The MTG community often stigmatizes and rejects proxies and proxy users, but most of their reasoning for doing so is flawed. There are tons of benefits to proxying cards in Magic the Gathering and no real downsides! This is why you should use proxies.
Subscribe: czcams.com/users/StrataGames?...
_________
Follow us on Social Media!
Discord: / discord
Twitter: @StrataGames
Instagram: @Strata_Games
Facebook: / stratagamesvideos
Twitch: twitch.tv/stratagames
#mtg #magicthegathering #commander - Hry
I think the big reason that people tend to be against proxying cards comes down that it makes people question why they bought a legitimate copy in the first place. "If I could have just played this game with proxies, why did I spend $50 on a cardboard rectangle with a monkey on it?"
For me I don't buy single cards if they are over 10$ basically. Then I will proxy it. I play casually with a group of friends and nobody minds. WotC can suck a fat dick if they think I will spend 1000$ PER DECK just to play magic casually with a group of friends.
exactly. just hypocrisy as always
Someone else put it in way that perfectly fit my view of proxies: "If someone forbid playing proxies against them, they don't want to fight your skill, they want to fight your bank account."
That's the truth.
I love this....
Magic is a strategic game, but also luck is involved. In commander it depends really what kind of playgroup or table you are. Sometimes it's a bit like Rock, Paper, Scissors. Also some commanders are just to powerful even in non-cedh.
That's some real Setto Kiaba shit. Very wise
I want to have fun times paying and hope you support the LGS so that others can also.
I was under the "I am ok with running the proxy if you own the card" camp, since I have like...14 commander decks. After watching your video, I kind of see why there are flaws in that argument. I do say if one is proxying, I want the proxy to at least look nice vs just words scribbled on the card IF no emergency thing. Art really draws me into the game, and seeing a card with just the name scribbled kind of annoys me and takes me out of it.
i dont even like black and white inkjet proxies. i feel like you can do better that that hahah
This helped inspire me for the concept of "Alt-art proxies", which are just proxies that are HQ images with alternate custom artwork (maybe different names like Battle Royale), but they are sleeved in with the original card so nobody should be complaining. Hopefully.
@@nkromancerN unlike this idea! Though...since I wrote this I am totally out of the game....Dominaria United literally gave me depression.
#saveajani
@@duckhuntdynasty6562 "unlike" or "i like"?
@@nkromancerN it is almost midnight...I am tired, I like the idea. X3
I like how you mentioned pretty much every example of people's issues with proxies. This is probably the best video on youtube discussing the subject.
Not at all. The #1 reason that proxies are garbage is because they look like garbage (unless they’re counterfeits). I played Star Wars CCG with Virtual Cards (format-supported cut out slips that fit over “real” cards) for years. It didn’t feel good at all. It was like printing out your whole deck at home.
MTG is a visual game. Some people seem to forget this. There’s a reason why people care about foils, sleeves, print versions, etc.
Think of it in the reverse. Would you want to play against decks 100% composed of proxies? If you do, why are you buying cards at all?
So your #1 reason why other people shouldn’t be allowed to use proxies is because you think they look ugly sitting across the table from you? For one they make some damn good looking proxies now a days. And two how is the aesthetic appeal of a player’s cards any reason to play or not play someone? What if you think Their card sleeves are ugly? Or their playmat? Or their shirt?
@@toddjohnson1728 how old are you?that's one of the weakest reason why you should be a gatekeeper and not welcome those who proxy lol.troll!
@@toddjohnson1728 there wasn't a single argument in your comment
@@toddjohnson1728 considering how one major reason why people make proxies is to have better looking, alternate art cards this comment makes literally no sense at all.
I'm definitely in the pro-proxy group. The secondary market has inflated the prices to the point where Ill never be able to build my decks the way I want them. I never play in tournaments, just EDH with friends so I'm not going to dump thousands of dollars just to have fun. MPC is the way to go
If a card is legal in a format, I don't care if my opponent uses a proxy as long as I can read the effects of the card. :) Everyone should have access to all game pieces.
I agree 100%
Even WOTC doesn't support LGS's anymore, all of my local ones have closed or stopped buying MTG as Amazon is just too competitive with prices. So my friends are forced to play at home, and you're damn right they allow proxies now as finding anyone who wants to trade, an LGS that still sells cards, or finding a cheap seller online, is out of the question now.
I play proxies exclusively. I spent thousands of dollars on cards as a teenager. I am an adult with real life responsibilities and mouths to feed. I could afford to sink my fun money into those cards but I only play for fun with friends randomly. I'm not interested in the market or what people think is strong. I play what I like in the themes I like and see no reason why I can't put together whatever combinations of cards I want to make those strategies happen. I have a proxy volo deck that's like 3k and I've lost to a human precon that has some light upgrades. Probably 45ish added value
Similar situation I want to get back into it and looking for some proxy groups to play with.
Thanks for making this video. I’ve been putting off the urge to make some proxies for a few staples and some jank decks I want to try.
I’m never going to spent more than $10 on a card. I just don’t make enough money. The most basic, necessary cards in a deck cost more than that and everyone is playing them. So I either handicap myself because I’m poor-which is objectively less fair and fun, or I make a couple fakes to just enjoy the game I love to play.
WotC and LGS have already made more money from me than any other game I’ve ever played-by far. I’m not a collector and I shouldn’t have to be rich to play a game made of fucking paper. I’m here to support the designers, artists and printers, but I’m not buying into purposeful scarcity so some execs can get a bigger bank account (because you know that extra money isn’t going to the designers, artists, or printers).
If they start reprinting staples in a way that makes them affordable for the poors (e.g. not reprinting them in Secret Lairs or legal unsets that end up costing more than the original versions) then I’ll buy those cards.
THIS ^^^^.... This is real talk!
Watch Commander's Quarters. You can make a powerful fun non-jank deck on a budget. All you gotta do is be willing to play something outside of the meta.
@@AngelusNielson or he can print proxies
@@AngelusNielsonalternative he played the deck he designed with proxies
@@nerderogoty Not the point. The point is you can play a fun game of commander without spending a fortune and without proxies.
It's just a game and if people can just relate to the fact its about PLAYING the game and not Bullying people out of playing because they don't have 10k to dump on cardstock now. when we all could have the chance to get those cards if revised was still 5$ a pack nd played with the same cards , dnt blame the person who wants to play game blame the market that was created to make a investment. People should be happy that the games still being played.
The fault is on Wizards that cards are to exspensive. The could print more cards like Growing Rites of Itlimoc. It is Sometimes better than the cradle, for example after a boardwipe. It will also flip at the end of turn, in the right Deck or played in the right moment. Also non Reserved List cards are just to exspensive. So I can understand Why people want to play with proxies.
Yeah, but how would they do that with reserve list cards?
@@AngelusNielson they cna just make functional copies with diffrent names.
@@Dr_Robin_Zoro No, they can't. They said that the point of the reserve list was to never make those cards in any from again.
There are several reserved list cards that are worse than cards currently out
The reserved list should have never been a thing in the first place it was just made so 40 year olds wouldn't cry when their pieces of card board got reprinted and lose value... I wish this would just go back to being a game and collectors and investors would just go away lol... I hope someone buys WoTC out and just reprints everything to the ground the real players will stay and the ones who only really just cared about having a retirement plan would leave.
It makes the game so exclusive to new players too. The idea that your willingness to spend thousands of dollars on cardboard to give you a huge advantage in the game shows that you are insecure as a player and do not want other competition. It should be inclusive to all people who want to be competitive. It should be about skill and not your bank account.
Pauper exists for a reason, after all. And drafts and the like.
@@AngelusNielson Your finances shouldn't determine your format.
@@Viper-yb6pt IF you don't have disposable income magic isn't a game for you at all.
@@AngelusNielson I would challenge you to be considerate of people from impoverished countries. 1 USD is ~59 Philippine pesos. Sure, you might say to yourself "Fury is only $32, I can afford this." To them, it's "Well, I only have 1000 peso for non-necessities this month, I wonder if I should pay 1947 peso for a single piece of cardboard, and then gatekeep this hobby from other people who can't do the same". It sounds almost hilariously stupid of a position to take when I put it like this, and yet this is the reality for many players. I would also tell you that we are bordering on an economic recession, so if you want to play with yourself then I think you have the right mindset. However, if your goal is NOT to just play with yourself (there's cheaper ways to do that, you know) then I would tell you to be more intellectually honest with yourself.
@@Kakerate2 Magic is a hobby, not a necessity. I mean, I'm well below the poverty line myself and I will never have more than a precon EDH deck and the decks I have on Arena and the boosters I bought.
I know what it's like to be poor. And I realize that "Poor" In the US does mean something quite different than "Poor" In the Philippines. But the truth of the matter is that you should not prioritize Magic.
And that's not even gatekeeping. Gatekeeping would be "You can't play MTG if you can't afford a 2K USD dollar deck."
Play magic. Proxy the entire deck if it's OK with the people you're playing with. I don't mind. But the facts remain, Magic is not a game that you can play "Legitimately" on the cheap.
I was against proxies until this last week. Now, everyone at the shop freely uses proxies. The 30th anniversary opened the floodgates; thanks wotc!
I only consider getting a proxy if the card I'm looking for costs more than $10.
I understand that competitive cards with limited printings cost a lot of money, especially since a lot of people are collectors. But if I want to play Sliver EDH, I don't have the money for a single $300 copy of Sliver Queen. That's more than a month's worth of food for me!
So yeah, buy cards if you can afford them, proxy if you can't. The point of a game is to have fun.
Great video! As someone looking into creating proxies, this is reassuring. I will say you missed one other reason for having proxies, which is to have fun custom art on your cards!
Great point!
My country has almost no LGC's (and they're definitely not "local") and some people still aren't willing to play with proxies!
Well hopefully this video convinces them!
Dang that's a clever way to say some people are idiots and shouldn't be in charge of finances
A strange thing I’ve seen is that competitive players have more kindness to proxies, especially more recent players as they see that you can’t be putting a mana crypt in ever cedh deck
Obviously? Competitive players play for the game mechanics not for the collection.
Every other competitive esport and chess would be outraged at magics business model.
Imagine if I’m chess you could buy alternative pieces that give you more options. Or if there was a hero in league and Dota that cost 200 dollars more than the rest. Magic is literal pay to win for competitive players.
When all things are equal(skill, meta knowledge) the player with access to superior options will win.
@@acksawblackamazingly put i agree 100%... I play mostly modern have 5 top tier decks (only say top tier cause those r most of the time consider the "expensive decks") 3 r fully foiled and 2 legacy decks and i welcome proxies with open sleeves... I play magic for the competitiveness and fun not for a retirement plan... If i bust out my foiled dimir shadow deck and someone sits down across with a 4c control deck fully proxied i don't even care because i kno im gonna get the same fun and competitiveness as i would if they had "real" pieces of cardboard... This is a game first for me and these game pieces r out of control priced smh. I still love buying them tho lol and playing.
In my experience, anti-proxy players tend to actually own the cards in question. They're just salty. And in the worse case, they're just mad that they can't wipe the floor with you.
yea , mad cuz bad. also if you have a really expensive deck its not smart to be walking around with it or playing it tbh because one mis shuffle could devalue your deck by 1000$. idk about you but im not handing jimmy my 4000$ deck for a cut....
@@jeffsanders5444 I would never own a 4k deck and if I did it'd be all used cards and/or proxies most likely. If I had that kind of spare cash for fun money I'd be buying a high-end computer and probably investing the other half.
@@jeffsanders5444they're just pieces of card board lol... Somebody cutting ur deck isn't gonna hurt it smh just double sleeve/triple sleeve it problem solved.
Here's one I heard recently: It's ok to use a proxy if you're going to a friend's house to play, but not if you're going to casually play those same friends at the LGS. What???
Makes SO much sense!
I'm about to do a $100 order for 600 proxy cards.
Going to print them double sided, can just flip the cards in the sleeve, so basically I'm getting 6-12 commander decks for $100.
Big brain proxying there. Did you go through MPC? I have a cube coming from them tomorrow.
@@TiredTimelord Yep, MPC. Custom/favorite art on all of them.
What took the longest time was actually setting up the order onto the website after I had the autofill images.
This is a fantastic idea that I hadn't even considered. Thanks for to suggestion!
I also swap to basic lands in different play groups, instead of shocks/duals/fetches to 'power down'
Same with some other mana rocks and spells.
My deck can still retain the game plan/flavor/idea but I play slower due to this and can get mana/color screwed like other players would in cheaper decks.
how is that legal?
Well done. Im a new player and is now looking to make proxy deck to try to find out what i like to play.
I'm quite okay with proxies. I would just hope that the proxy is a print of the actual card and not the white rectangle one. At least that way you can tell what the card is when you look at your opponent's board.
Proxies are super important in vintage games, because a solid vintage deck in real MTG cards can cost you at the cheapest, $17,000+ add any of the power 9 in there and it's easily the price of a new sports car.
In any vintage game I highly expect most cards being proxies because it's the only format that allows a full range of theorycrafting
I've discovered that most people that give you shit about proxies are not people you'll want to play with again lmao
My group has a dumb rule of "proxies are fine, but if it's too powerful we'll say you can't run it, but if you bought the real card you can"
I'm totally ok with proxies, as long as it's just not a mountain with the name of the card written on it. I'm a visual person and I don't want to pull up what each card does every time they play something
I say for tournaments probably shouldn’t proxy but for anything else no one should argue you shouldn’t proxy especially if you get some people who want to try a format like vintage but you don’t have a down payment on a house.
For tournaments you 100% shouldn't proxy as it is against the rules.
Unsanctioned tournaments are the solution to this problem. This way you can support your LGS while still getting to play competitive magic. If the only requirement for play was to have access to a printer (or a marker) then you make this game way more accessible. Making it more accessible is how you develop a stronger gaming community.
@@taylorbates4742 implying they can even care
I just ordered 6 full commander decks in the 612 card package on MPC, super excited to finally be able to use dual lands
How does it feel to be part of the problem?
@@AngelusNielson I dont play them against decks in normal budgets, never have. Me and a friend play the broken decks i got on MPC against each other, fun to play 9 and 10 powerlevel against an equally powerful deck.
@@MrAskmannen You're still driving demand for more powerful cards, therefore more expensive on the secondary market cards. It's a cycle that will only stop when the demand for a card or cards drops.
@@AngelusNielson u mad cuz bad . its ok lil bro 💀, just say you suck at the game and only win cuz of your wallet.
@@AngelusNielson u mad cuz bad . its ok lil bro 💀, just say you suck at the game and only win cuz of your wallet.
what are some websites for proxies.. im trying to build a scarecrow deck and some cards are on the expensive side
I have a super compelling point about how proxies actually make all sellers involved a TON of money where they would have made peanuts had the proxier just bought cards that they could afford. MTG is set up perfectly for the 'lite' format of product. U can play proxies casually but u must have a deck with all legitimate cards to enter a tournament.
If u proxy, u will be using cards in higher price ranges to test what u like in a deck and while not everyone wishes to enter tournaments, alot of people do and if u proxy a $50 card and realise just how important it is to ur deck, u will always opt to save up for it and buy it eventually. This is the same for every card within a "reasonable" price range for each player, netting sellers and wizards hundreds or thousands of ur dollars over time.
If u go budget, u will always be looking for alternative cheaper cards to fit slots that more expensive cards take up. Ur end deck will likely cost less than 300 if that and that will be ur final figure spent for that deck.
U have affectively lost wizards and resellers the potential money that u would have saved and spent had u gone the proxy route.
It's a 'lite' scheme and I think they may be aware of this fact as when a program or product includes a sampler with some limitations, the potential for the seller to make bank on the full purchase goes through the roof compared to if they had not included it because when u give access to a taste of something, the user then finds reasons they need to spend that money to obtain the full experience.
PROXY 4EVR
Really like the video, you explain as a hole the problem with proxy and I'm 100% on accord with you. I'm the type of player that prefer to put card I own in a proxy deck, because my LGS does not allow proxy for league or tournament or commander night. One argument I came across when I was playing with people who did not like proxy is it kill the creativity of the deckbuilding part because you can use all the same card in every deck. My point of view was that I agreed some people use the same card over and over for the same usage like the cyclonic rift because now we got thing like edhrec and so many deckbuilding site and some card are just better (demonic tutor is stronger then diabolic tutor), but depending of the power of my deck and what I want to do with it I'm not going to use such powerfull card. Also proxying make me search for different card I don't own to test them to find the best 99 with a commander and the theme I want to build. I wonder what you think of this point of view. Does Proxy really kill creativity ? I don't think so, but it take a more mature player to use proxy in the right way.
The really only debate about proxy, in my opinion is the power lv discussion (rule zero), because some card on it own make it that deck are more powerfull than they should be, like OG dual land in an adnaus deck or fast mana in a ''casual'' environment card like gaea's cradle, mana crypt, etc.
Thx you for the great video I will share it with my LGS to convince them more to allow proxy xD
Do you have a video detailing where/how you got your card stock proxies?
Not at the moment.
Are there any places online that sell good proxies? if preferable global shipping available (Since I live in the Australia)
Pretty late to this video, but I think it comes down to what I've seen others say as well: "I'd rather play against your ability, not your wallet."
Me and my buds got together and built a vintage cube out of 100% proxies. Best thing ever
i always proxy a new deck untill i worked out the kinks then i will buy any $5 or less cards but still proxy anything above the 20$ range until i can buy them all. My LGS is cool about it too only requiring proxies be represented by the dual sided tokens while playing any buy in tournament game. Usually by the time im playing a deck in a semi competitive setting there is maybe 5 proxies max in the whole deck and they will likely be 30$+ cards.
The thing is that on spite the fact i can proxy am entire deck, but magic hasn't been worth playing for a long time, so why bother
Aww you guys don't wanna play my proxy Amulet deck :(
Wanna play my real $1400 UW Control deck instead ;)
The REAL cyclonic rift is the one in the brain of the person to whom you're asking this question: "If you're okay with me proxying a card that I already own, does that mean you're okay with me proxying a card that my friend already owns, but he would have let me borrow if he wasn't using it at that time?" The swirling mental gymnastics in their poor brains as they undoubtedly melt and say, "Wait, what?" Haha, that's my favorite part of this video!! lol
The real mental gymnastics are done by those who won't accept proxies. :)
My interest in this game comes and goes and the main reason why it (always) goes is because cards are too expensive. Wizards and their anticonsumer practices ensured that I will not purchase their products or their (expensive) cards. Instead I will purchase proxies going forward.
Thanks for the video. I enjoyed all your points.
Most of WOTC pricing on precon decks are based off of secondary market ,if they really do not do this practice(not dictating the price on secondary market as they claim) and release products that are based off the top 5 meta decks people use for a price of a pioneer prebuild decks then it will stop the necessity to proxy.Their print quality has gone done the drain too as ali express mtg cards are like almost identical and would pass even some basic tests.
So... Any tips on how to make or where to get proxies?
If you want cardstock proxies, you can find them online pretty easily. I won't mention the one I used for the cards I mentioned in the video, as I did not have a good experience and would not recommend them. But if you want to be even cheaper, you can just use a colored printer and regular paper, and if you don't own one, local libraries will often have a printer, or you can go to a Staples-like business. You can even swap out regular paper for adhesive labels, cut them out, and stick them to old MTG cards for a permanent, nice-looking, and cheap option.
As for how to make them, depending on the route you go, you'll either need to send card images to the business or align them in a way they'll print at a proper size (2.5 inches by 3.5 inches) on a sheet of paper (9 cards can fit on a single sheet, 3 by 3).
There's a few videos online on how to make them. I learned from of them to go to ms paint. Hold control and e and set the parameters to 2016 by 2808. Then go to scryfall and copy the image of the cards you want and paste them into paint. You then move them so that they are just right, fitting 3 cards a row with 3 rows. You then can email those images to printandgo@fedex.com. from there you go to your local fed ex office and use their self serve machines to print them out. You have to carefully cut them out with their papercutter. At first it can be a time consuming process to figure out the technique and you will most likely mess a few cards up. Then you take some scissors and cut the tips to make them rounded like a magic card. After all is said and done you can slide them in front of your preexisting cards in sleeves without glue because glue is another hard process and sometimes takes away the quality.
If you ask to print out at the front desk I've had them be slightly larger than a traditional magic card but has slightly better quality, wouldnt recommend that.
The youtube video is by Edwin the Magic engineer.
@@seanflanagan9675 Thank you very much.
@@DanielAbeleira Google "MPC Autofill" and follow the instructions on their guide. It's a website/program that can help you set up an order with makeplayingcards.com, they're a playing card printing press out of China and can make nearly perfect proxies for 20-30 cents a card printed on actually cardstock. You can also use any art (just be careful about copyright) you want, and the internet is oozing with amazing custom arts for you to choose from.
As someone whos used tons of proxies in my modern decks because of the insane climbing price of cards, ive still spent thousands of dollars at my local game store over the years
As someone that dose proxy i own most of them real copys but I rather play the skills not the budget. Just rule zero talk to people my one thing i ask is make sure everything is on it information and mana cost and what not. I like that proxys let that newer player try new cards deffently if you build it and not end up liking it. Another point i like is i rather spend 20 to 30 on some nice proxys and have money for bills and snacks.
I proxy for commander, just so I have decks at different levels. Plus I proxy cards I already have so I don't have to swap cards out of already built decks.
Hey just saw your video and let me just add another reason why proxies are good.
They are less of a finacial risk. A lot of people treat these cards as an investment and it is easy to get swept up in it. So when something happens to an expensive card it can be heart breaking. But with a proxy the risk is minimal and there is a serious reduction in stress.
If ur stressing over pieces of cardboard u need help 😂.
great overview of this debate.
Excellent video!
I'm fine with proxying as long as one doesn't try to trade/sell the card as if it were a real card.
I’ve played on spell table and the first thing some ppl ask is if there are any proxies, and if 1 or 3 of us say yes that person tends to leave saying they refuse to play against proxies, it’s honestly just a childish thing if you really think about it
Very good video. Thank you very much!
I always ask the group if they're ok. My 1st reason would be I dont play at tournaments anymore. 2nd since I dont play at official games I wont add to the demand of those who do and affect the increase of price or scarcity of much needed cards. 3rd Trading and Stocks, Im bad at it. 4rth Im casual player, im here for the jank synergies, big creatures, questionable choices; Not those 2 card autowin combos
My collection was sold off years back and I’m just getting back into MTG. Flat out, without proxies, I wouldn’t be able to play the way I want, and therefore, wouldn’t play at all, and my FLGS and WOTC would receive $0 instead of a slow stream of $.
Check out Villa Zheng proxies. They’re the best!
I have money for jeska's will, but i can't justify spending 30 on a card that's basically unbalanced on purpose as an incentive for consumers to buy an entire deck of cards where the card is... I'm just... good and will still want to try the card without looking at that little piece of paper.
in commander, I have a rule where if I already own an expensive card, that instantly get's the proxy treatment so that I can have that card in the decks I need without having to pay an arm and a leg (and I make sure it looks like a legit magic card so that way it's easier to use). If I don't own the real card, I proxy cards that are at least $50.
I play alpha40 and I can tell you the barrier to entry is pretty high to the point of it being hard or impossible to find games locally if my choice is leave my alpha40 at home or go hang out with a group of guys playing mostly proxies I'm going proxies all the way at least I get to have a fun afternoon and enjoy my alpha cards
If i owned LG'S i for sure let people play with proxies cEDH and legacy why simple the 2 formats are expensive, would eliminate theft problems and people would be able to play there old cards and not damage them, wear on any kind of cards is a problem.
There is a group that wants to play legacy sure i would run a non sanctioned tournament for them
also not just for MTG old games like VS system, duel masters, legend of the five rings and so many others
pretty much this. My local LGs hosts legacy and vintage with full proxied decks allowed, because nobody would show up with real decks. Vintage had like 1 or 2 players with actual decks. And guess what, a ton of people showed up and had a fucking blast, especially the people who owned the real decks, because they had the opportunity again to play in their favorite format. let's be real, to 99.9 % of players that don't already own all the cards, legacy and vintage will never be an option if no proxies are allowed
where can I have card proxys made?
I have a group that only allows proxies if they are lands that including true duals or $$$ ones like gaesas cradle. Or cards under $50
i am still in the camp of using proxies if you have the at least 1 copy. reason being, I love the game and am 100% about playing against strategies and not bank accounts. but if proxies are okay, what is now stopping me from selling my entire collection and just buying a cheap version of the game? There are many reasons to proxy. and I even like the idea of proxying to test out a card in a casual format. but in general for me, I need to own the actual card first because I worked hard for what I have now and take pride in the collection. If I just start making proxies of everything, all my work is worthless. just my take.
Garrett I'm sorry but if you are dumb enough to spend rent car note and a month worth of food on colorful cardboard I can't feel sorry for your quote on quote...hard work. Hard work is cutting the grass building something looking online to spend money isn't hard work you are just gullible and spend hard earned cash on colorful cardboard that most likely you can't even sell for the price you bought it at
The greatest argument I suppose, is that you're buying into a game. When someone invests in the game they like, they feel cheated to find that someone else gets access to the same game for pennies on the dollar. Sort of like boosting in video games, or free to play private servers. In this way, proxies undermine the enjoyment of curating rare or sought after cards.
That being said, I don't particularly enjoy that argument, because gatekeeping is a feelsbad 100% of the time. And in the long run, we ALL BENEFIT from having more players to enjoy the game we love to play. So while I do understand those who naysay proxies, I find that the opportunity for more people to play the (same high level of) game is fundamentally more important.
I have a high tier edh deck with 4 proxies in it. I found them online and they are pretty damn hard to tell apart from the real cards. So the next argument becomes go ahead and play proxies with no issue if your play group has no idea they are even proxies 🤷
I'm a big 40K fan and picked up the Necron precon to try Magic
I'd like to keep the Necron theming while upgrading my deck, so unless a Secret Lair comes along with exactly what I need, I have to proxy
I'm not a fan of the slip of paper with name proxy, as I don't have every card in Magic memorised
But the pictures of cards/cardstock proxies are cool, especially if they have better/more thematic art, as I do
I'm also OK with proxy models in 40k along similar conditions: If they're close enough to the model being proxied
Want to make your Redemptor a Contemptor, or decide your Bolt-Rifle Intercessors are actually ABRs? Cool!
Want to sub in a historical model like a Tiger for a Dorn or Sherman for a Russ? Awesome, I love that
Got a cool kitbash you want to run? Only if you tell me how you made it, so I can have my own
But bring a coke can and say it's an Armiger? Come on, man
There are a lot of great proxy artists out there, so it's possible some have made 40K styled cards. Definitely something to look into
I would really like to have some stormseekers in My deck, I'm starting playing paper Magic but I'm starting to notice how you just can't simply find some cards, at least here Mexico or maybe it's my city don't know. So maybe I'll use proxys until I find some.
It really just depends on who you are playing with. Proxies are used entirely within casual settings and formats, and as such whether or not a table or player is comfortable with someone using them is something that can be easily resolved through discussion or simply going to another table.
Casual games are leniant and varied by nature.
I play the game not just because its fun with friends, but I just like the art, themes, and stories really. So with that, the proxies have to look nice and no power 9 type cards
i own 1 copy of alot of staples, but i have like 10 decks. I dont wanna keep moving them around
The lads I play with are fine with a proxy Savannah, Wheel of Fortune, even Gaea's Cradle as one is just mana-fixing, one can help everyone at the table (barring Nekusar) and the last is powerful, but just enables whatever broken thing one was going to do anyway.
What they do NOT like is proxy Nether Void, Humility, Invoke Prejudice, cards that gum up the game state or really wreck several people's game plans all at once. That line of thinking is also why we don't play mass land destruction, except for the dick that runs Jhoira once in awhile, but the other lads usually come at me for it.
Yugioh managed to somehow have affordable reprints yet retain value in practically the same card but an older printing. Magic and WOTC has been getting worse and worse so I'm going the proxy route now.
I just got back into magic and bought two proxy decks . One that would of costed $600 and one that would of costed $2000
The sole reason being so that I can keep up at my LGS during causal play with people who have decks they use competitively
My main thought is why would my opponent care in causal play if I’m using proxies? They care that much if I am $600 poorer but have the same cards? I certainly couldn’t ever afford these decks
I used to be in the mindset of you can play a proxy if you own the card, but with the constant rise in price of cards I'm definitely coming around to them.
I never waited someone to say thats its ok to do this hahaha. When i was young my father had a printer and i used to ask my friends what cards they wanted me to print in order to test matchup decks. We were actually 2 doing that, another friends father had a little society with a big print machine. When we knew that we had a standard tournament we would print every top deck in order to play our favorite deck AND play the other deck to change our viewpoint and play better against them. That was very fun and infinitely cheaper
It was 15 years ago tho during the Mirrodin block, dragons orage and first Kamigawa sets if i remember correctly, not that clear in my memories. Now you can do this on arena, stil cheaper to print proxies and play with friends on paper
The only times I don't approve of proxies are:
1) It's just a name and info on a bit of paper. I'm not gonna play against someone that won't bother at least making visual copies of cards...unless I trust that the individual presents honest information and want me to help out.
2) The proxy has been edited such as increased attack, health or other information. Obviously.
3) If it's an official tournament but I'm sure it's against their rules too.
Neither 1) and 2) are proxies if the information is being presented incorrectly. That's just cheating
the reason why me and my friends are playing MTG again is because of proxies.
Proxies are 100% good for the game as long as they aren't allowed in official tournaments obviously.
Even though I've heard every excuse you've mentioned about being for or against proxies, and you will always find someone that's highly against them, I don't feel like people in general care and will allow others to play with them. There are quite a few that use them at my LCS. Now I think where the real issue lies is where you are playing in a competitive event where you are using tournament rules that state proxies are not allowed, or even if that's wasn't the case, let's just say everyone put out money twords prize support for the event and it was made to where everyone walked out with something. And then here comes this person walking in with a mostly proxied deck tuned to win the event. I believe that's completely unfair to everyone else who worked hard on making there deck for that event. Because just like you said a cheap deck doesn't mean bad deck. So even though I believe proxies are cool in most situations, they don't belong in events or tournaments where money or prize support is on the line.
My LGS has had unsanctioned prize supported Legacy events where you can bring in X amount of a proxies but then the other cards are real. Usually it’s like 8 or 12 proxies are allowed. So like four original duels, four Forces, and then four something else. In their experience, it’s brought more people in, had greater deck diversity, and some folks still used no proxies because that’s how they preferred to play. My local university’s Magic club has done the same thing with some modern events. Both of these events had prize support and it’s only helped support those communities rather than hurting them.
@@msbeccafae yes, this would definitely be they way to do it when it comes to proxies. Putting everyone on the same playing field. Everyone being allowed 8 to 12 is pretty good allowing them to use good cards that are expensive or hard to get ahold of. I hope I didn't come off like I was completely against proxies. My point was mainly for sanctioned events or prize events where you put yourself at a clear advantage by have mainly a proxied deck purposely tuned to win said event. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that if people at my local LGS new this that they probably wouldn't have a deck or two that would beat said proxy deck, but let me throw an example of a scenario at you. So let's say we are doing a commander THG event with a box of commander Legends collectors edition up for first prize and you have other packs or stuff up for grabs for 2nd 3rd and so on. If you have 8 to 12 players, you looking at 50$ to 70$ or more for buy in. That's a lot of money. And everyone has agreed to using decks they have. Then here comes a person with a 100% proxied, let's say, tergrid deck. This person has but themselves in a position where he has an advantage on others especially the ones who have worked hard to just have a lv 5 or 6 deck. And here this person is with one of the top decks in commander both for it's play and how annoying it to play against. THG is about working with your teammate and building decks that work together. This would make things unbalanced and throw the fun out the window.
@@toxichulk1124 Why do you have an advantage using proxies in a tournament? Or rather, what advantage can you get by proxying, that you can't get by just being rich?
A tournament should be a contest based on how good you are, not a contest about being able to buy the best deck. Proxies allow everyone to test their skills at both playing magic and metagaming wihtout having to shell out for completely new decks every week, as the meta shifts.
A proxied deck only has an advantage against non-proxied deck, if the non-proxied deck is built with a budget constraint and not the best version of the deck possible. But this is the same problem as someone being able to spend more than others on magic. The fair solution is to level the playing field by letting everyone have the best deck possible, not by letting some people just straight up pay to win.
@@Taeerom If you would read my entire comment and not just focused on my one example, you would of seen where i myself dont care if you use proxies or not. I use them all the time especially when I want to preserve a expensive card or cant afford to make 2, 3, 6 copies said card. so if you are someone who plays with proxies and the group you in doesnt mind then go ahead play with them. but when it comes to the argument of tournaments, there are rules against them for a reason. No matter what competitive field you talk about, card games, video games, sports you are never just given the win, you earn it. and in some circumstances the equipment you use is just as important as the skill of the player. The whole point is to buy packs trade cards and build the decks. ya does it suck sometimes the someone thats rich can do that way more often, ya sure. but thats just how the world works and you cant be upset that there are people richer than you out there. Im poor, have bills, a child. but i still have fun. plus having a expensive deck doesnt mean you have a good deck. all and all if you play with proxies go ahead. but just remember if you didnt have the technology to make proxies what would you do then. spending money on what you like supports the company that makes it. so no matter your opinion on big companies or corporations, spending money keeps magic around.
@@Taeerom There needs to be a balance. I completely agree that the cost of some cards (and the cost of making a competitive deck in general) is bordering on the absurd, but if WoTC doesn't make money, then they stop making the game we love. From a philosophical standpoint, I completely agree but from a pragmatic perspective, if we go too hard into proxies as a community, we could be the death of MtG.
I still use one or two for completely unreasonable costs, but I try to keep it to a minimum.
I’m for proxies mostly but it does remove the trading card aspect of a collectible trading card game. I enjoy hunting down a specific card or finding a gem in a booster pack. Making your own cards completely takes away that thrill for me but I understand all the reasons why ppl do it.
pff i proxied my whole vintage cube fuck buying black lotus and power 9 i even proxied cards i already have just so everything is the same :P
Im still in the camp of if your testing out a card proxies are fine, and if you own the card proxies are fine. Or if your waiting for a card to come in the mail proxies are fine.
And yes not all expensive cards are good but (almost)no one is going to be playing a bad "expensive" card in their deck.
There are plenty of budget deck options out there where you dont need to spend hundreds/thousands of dollars on a deck. No deck NEEDS og duel lands or mana crypts/vaults.
If there is an expensive card you want for your deck then ether save money towards that one card or try to trade for the card.
slave mindset
Or just use a proxy ahahah.
God consumerism has ruined the minds of many. Magic cards are artificially scarce.
@@acksawblack you said it b. imagine spending money on cardboard over a car and a nice warm meal
Im one of those folks who wants to have a real version of the card before using a proxy, save some few exceptions (things like shadowborn apostle, relentless rats, dragons approach, commons that are 5$ a pop for no real reason) and its ENTIRELY a pride thing. Its about keeping my decks at the same level as my pod, its about feeling good in owning a real version of those cards. Its about being happy to have the real thing, and celebrating the pulls, or the buy with fancier artwork proxies. Its emotional, rather than a moral issue, if you wanna proxy a whole deck, id like to look at it to see if its the kind of deck Id like to play against, but honestly I dont care.
I wanted to rebuild my enchant/lockout deck again.. a little more revised and it’s been 10+ years since I’ve played MTG/EDH. I recently came across a legends Enchantment “moat”
The average cost of this card is roughly $1k… back when I was living paycheck to paycheck, I would eek my way through hundreds of dollars worth of cards. Scowling at proxy builds/cards. I’m sorry for anyone who disagrees but it’s absolutely ridiculous the cost of certain cards now. Even all of these reprints of older cards. I can’t afford Gaea’s cradle, avacyn AOH, or even a divining top. I love the game, but why are the cards so expensive? Take today for example, I went to my LGS and purchased an Umezawa’s Jitte FTV. Not from betrayers. I honestly felt like I purchased a “legal” proxy when I’m very stern on cards being from their original pressings/block. since “ TECHNICALLY” it’s not from kami, I was already telling myself I’m buying recycled cards. Not the real version… Gilded Lotus is another example, why are there 8+ versions?!? TO ME, it doesn’t count if they’re not from the original set/block. But enough of my diatribe, I just want people to play MTG and be happy with whatever they bring to the table.
I've always had the problem of getting proxies -- or even painting my own, cause painting is another hobby of mine -- and a lot of people I show them to are just like "You know you can't use those in a tourny right?"
And I'm just like, yeah, of course! I'm proxying the card because I don't have the time or money to buy the real card, what makes you think I have the time or money to go to a tournament???
Where did you get proxies $0.50 a piece? The best I found was $1
"Finding alternatives until you can afford the best in slot card, basically meaning the journey is more important than the destination" is a really funny argument, since we know at least 50% of the player base uses EDHREC on the daily and rarely plays with intentionally worse cards nowadays
I just proxy like 5 to 6 CEDH deck just to play in my group it fun or I just proxy like $100 deck and slowly building it
I'm a huge proponent of proxies; magic shouldn't be about whoever can pay the most to win their games. Proxies allow players to compete whether or not they have thousands to spend on meta decks. The only stipulation I have for proxies is that they need to be clearly identifiable for what the card is/does. I prefer to own real copies of my cards when I can afford to, but having multiple decks for the variety for myself or to lend to other players really helps with game variety and with some cards costing hundreds of dollars it'd be unfair for some players to just not have access to certain tools or strategies because they can't afford them.
Love your take and arguments!
Also if your cards get stolen you don’t go broke
well I understand one thing.
If I was a player who's spent a lot of time and money for his deck, it feels kinda whack if somebody else just walks in with a deck out of his printer, playing all the expensive cards as if it was nothing. Thats kinda unfair and frustrating. So I see why people can have issues with that topic even I though I think it's a good way to test your deck before buying it.
But it's not unfair, because the player who spent time and money also has the ability to use proxies. It's unfair if certain players have access to cards just because they have more disposable income
Finally, somebody saying that me buying card for 100$ on CardMarket is in no way supporting my LGS where I would still go and play, even with 1$ proxy and sepnt same cash there on some drinksand fancy sleeves.
When i heard Timmy i remembered rudy alpha investments
I use mostly proxies that are actually pretty (like, printed on a good printer and with a nice paper) to play, not only cause I do not make that much money but I live in a third world country as well, when 50 dollars for a jace may be expensive, imagine if that is 1/5 of the minimum wage in your country. lol
Well this aged well
I don't play Magic at my LGS in Paris because decks are too expensive though I play MTGA because of lower entry cost. I probably build a deck if I could get balanced deck for 50 bucks.
Sui Black
I've spent soooo much on cards in the past. Even now I must dropped almost $1k to build my standard and edh deck. Some of which were proxies now. I wish I had asked and known the MTG community was so relaxed after 9 years of being Qlaway
I play by the rule that if I own a card, I can make a high quality copy of the card and use it in as many decks as I want. Not everyone feels that way and that’s fine. I do mind if other people make high quality copies of any card they want. I don’t like playing against basic lands with the card name scrawled in pen. Same with foreign language cards. It ruins the flavour for me.
Only at my modern fnm proxies are banned. I would like to play that format but cannot afford it...😢
I'm 100% in the pro-proxy group with one exemption: I don't like counterfeits, or ones that are attempting to look like genuine cards. It must be obvious - alternate artwork or styling, or completely different backing is good enough for me!
So often I'd like to try a deck or some janky bizarre wincon deck and it'd be far too expensive to build and try every single one. So I just print the cards, throw them infront of some basic lands and sleeve up!
Often, they're good fun once, but then I've got it out of my system instead of wondering: "What if...?"
the only issue i have with proxies isnt even an issue with the proxies themselves. i trust my friends and most random LGS people to only proxy in sensible cards (overpriced dual lands etc.) and limit the amount of proxies in a deck to a reasonable amount.
the thing i worry about is running into a "that guy" and getting stuck in games where im playing against someone whos deck is 60% inkjet proxies of cards that WoTC intentionally dont reprint because theyre format ruining.
it goes fine 90% of the time, but as with everything, theres always that one socially stunted person that will ruin it for everyone.
> WoTC intentionally dont reprint because theyre format ruining.
The proper response is banning a card.
@@TehKorwinMikke commander doesnt have much of a ban list
I personally think it's a dick move to rule out proxies. Contest their bank account instead of their skills. I'm against pay-to-win in EVERY aspect. But I also hate the sweaty nerd "counter-points" you pointed out. "Heh snort heh. But WHAT IF I buy the card from a friend for a dollar and then blahblahblahmydicksobigblahblah". You and me and everyone else knows EXACTLY what the "if you own a copy" rule means. Anyone who argues is arguing a shitty rule with equally shitty logic.
Hi, I did not see the most important (for me) argument against proxies - the proxies are often (more often than not at my LGS) poorly done, and it's much harder to play when you have to ask what card that is all the time
I use proxy and still buys from my local store, already spent some money on singles, I am proxing some lands but still buying MTG products from my local store...