Your Least Favorite Place in Gaming
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- čas přidán 14. 01. 2022
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There are a lot of… places in gaming. A lot of spaces. But the one space that I think is so often thought about but rarely talked about is the space between the respawn point and the boss or even where you are currently stuck at. Today on Psych of Play, let’s dive into that gap and talk about how our minds handle when that space is small and when it is vast.
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▶Games Shown
Red Dead Redemption 2 (2018) - Rockstar Games
Hollow Knight (2017) - Team Cherry
Metroid Dread (2021) - Mercury Steam
NieR:Automata (2017) - PlatinumGames
Undertale (2015) - Toby Fox
Dark Souls (2011) - FromSoftware
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (2017) - Nintendo
Ghost of Tsushima (2020) - Sucker Punch Productions
Final Fantasy VII Remake (2020) - Square Enix
Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl (2021) - ILCA
Control (2019) - Remedy Entertainment
Persona 5 (2016) - Atlus, P Studio
BioShock (2007) - 2K Games
Firewatch (2016) - Campo Santo
Florence (2018) - Florence
Mario Golf: Super Rush (2021) - Nintendo
Marvel's Guardians of the Galaxy (2021) - Eidos-Montréal
Deltarune Chapter 2 (2021) - Toby Fox
Metroid Prime (2002) - Nintendo
OMORI (2020) - OMOCAT, LLC
Pokemon Ruby (2001) - Game Freak
Gris (2018) - Nomada Studio
Horizon Zero Dawn (2017) - Guerilla Games
Magic: The Gathering Arena (2018) - Wizards of the Coast, Digital Games Studio
Resident Evil Village (2021) - Capcom
Control (2019) - Remedy Entertainment
Astral Chain (2019) - Platinum Games
Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity (2020) - Omega Force
Celeste (2018) - Matt Makes Games
Super Mario Bros (1985) - Nintendo
Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (2019) - FromSoftware
Cyber Shadow (2020) - Aarne Hunziker
Elden Ring (2022) - FromSoftware Inc.
Dead Cells (2017) - Motion Twin
Hades (2020) - Supergiant Games
Monster Hunter Rise (2021) - Capcom
Gears of War: Ultimate Edition (2015) - The Coalition
The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker HD (2017) - Nintendo
Returnal (2021) - Housemarque
Dandara (2018) - Long Hat House
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006) - Nintendo
Super Mario Galaxy (2007) - Nintendo
Eastward (2021) - Pixpil
Ghostrunner (2020) - One More Level, 3D Realms, Slipgate Ironworks
Axiom Verge (2015) - Thomas Happ Games LLC
Shin Megami Tensei V (2021) - Atlus
Final Fantasy XIII (2009) - Square Enix
The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword (2011) - Nintendo
Super Metroid (1994) - Nintendo
Demon's Souls (2020) - FromSoftware
Undertale (2015) - Toby Fox
Super Meat Boy (2010) - Team Meat, Edmund McMillen
Dead Space (2008) - Visceral Games
Dark Souls 3 (2016) - FromSoftware
▶Other Media/Clips/Considerations:
• Playlist
▶Music Sources:
Shops - Persona PSP OST
08 - Your Vibe - R4 / Ridge Racer Type 4 / Direct Audio
Elegant Summer - Melty Blood Actress Again OST
Coasting - Transistor OST
Darkmoon Caverns - Diddy Kong Racing OST
Through The Trees - Shantae: Risky's Revenge OST
The Street Corner at Sunset - Wild ARMS 5 OST
Clock Tower - Dead Cells OST
Starjump - Celeste OST
Silence Before the Storm - Final Fantasy X OST
Birdman - Pilotwings 64 OST
A Rusted Scar - Wild ARMS 5 OST
Tension - Persona PSP OST
▶Research Articles Cited
(1) Brief diversions vastly improve focus, researchers find
www.sciencedaily.com/releases...
(2) How Do Work Breaks Help Your Brain? 5 Surprising Answers
www.psychologytoday.com/us/bl...
(3)On the need for attention-aware systems: Measuring effects of interruption on task performance, error rate, and affective state (106% MORE ANNOYED STUDY)
www.sciencedirect.com/science...
(4) Recently published OHIO study reveals humans are impatient, even down to seconds
www.ohio.edu/news/2020/07/rec...
psycnet.apa.org/record/2020-3...
discovery.dundee.ac.uk/ws/por...
#PsychofPlay - Hry
Okay. Enough time has passed. I feel like I need to clarify the checkout line thing from 2:44 lmao.
It seems I am the only one that's like this, but for whatever reason it has weirdly irked me for years when people do this to me. It's always felt like a passive aggressive "um you forgot to put the divider down asshole" which I realize is 100% my problem. I guess I just all at once feel embarrassed for forgetting to put it down and also feel like people are cleaning up my mess which makes me upset at *me*. I suppose in the past, I deflected those feelings and interpreted them as someone else being passive aggressive.
But you should know that I have since gotten over this, and nowadays I both use the divider in every line AND have absolutely no problem with other people using them if I forget. Thank you for reading and understanding. This is by far the strangest thing I've ever had to explain on the internet. 🤣
Redemption arc
lmao
I just had to delete a comment about the divider thing after seeing this comment. Hilarious.
No, no. You don’t need to feel embarrassed. You were 100% correct.
I did the same thing
As a bard once wrote, "The space between the tears we cry is the laughter that keeps us coming back for more."
Dave Matthews
That’s incredibly wholesome
For which? More laughter despite the tears, or more tears, ultimately, because of the laughter?
@@thegreenmage6956 A surprisingly philosophical question.
Honestly proud to know that's Dave Matthew's Band
I always wondered as to why after repeating certain points over and over again I started getting worse at the parts I've been doing for a long time so it was really interesting hearing that the reason why this might be is because your mind starts treating it like something unimportant like us walking or what we wear.
Honestly same, until researching this video I had no idea that could be it. By far my favorite thing I learned from making this.
Yeah I always have this issue with rogue likes where I do my best run on my first try and gradually get worse, super interesting
It’s really something that I feel our society subconsciously tries to silence. The best take I hear all the time is “work hard, party hard,” but that’s not as useful as “working hard? take breaks.” When it comes to gaming, it’s not different: after 20-30 fruitless attempts, you’re working.
Same. Ive noticed the effect before but this is the first time ive heard any explanation for it. Was pretty cool to learn about
Same thing with plateformers for me. I barely loose the first time I try, I can see the victory at hand, and then I proceed to become worse and worse at every following try.
I guess my ablity to focus just keeps getting lower and lower until my muscular memory takes over and I can beat the obsctacle without even thinking about it.
EDIT : oh he just talks about that at the end of the video lol
For me personally, I've found there's a sweet spot. That usually comes in the form of a decently lengthy loading screen, plus a brief walk. I know, that sounds odd, but this sort of setup is always where I do my best improvement. The loading screen is the "take a breath and think" moment, while the walk back keeps you working at the controls in a lower stakes environment. Don't like a bunch of enemies in the way, though. Not for me.
I’d be happy as a pig in shit if it were a “retry” button with less than a second between retries if I so chose. Or I could choose 5 seconds, 5 minutes, or 5 days.
It takes a lot of faith in your boss design to do this though.
I feel like the best walk back in Hollow Knight, at least to me, is the one before the Broken Vessel. It gives us time to reflect, lets us do a Crystal Dash (which is always fun), and has two small enemies to recharge soul.
I'd agree... except for that stupid spike pit leading to the mawlurk section. You can nail pogo back up, yes, but it's a bit awkward to do. I wish they made that bit less easy to fall into, or more easy to get back out. Cause most players won't fall in, but for those who do, they're probably in for a rough time. Otherwise though, I definitely agree. Also, I love that the game doesn't force you to watch cutscenes or read dialogue every time. Could you imagine if you needed to watch the lightseed intro every time attempting broken vessel?... Yikes.
@@JacobPDeIiNoNi Fair enough! I've never fallen into that pit, but I could very much see where you're coming from there. And yes, skipping cutscenes is a great feature, and while there can definitely be a time and place for redoing relatively long stretches of gameplay, there is no excuse for a game forcing me to rewatch a cutscene or reread dialog after a failed attempt.
ya im only 15 hours in the game but I think hollow knight handles the gap the best from what I've played
I tend to get frustrated with gaps, and with having my momentum broken in general, even just making several typing errors in a row when I'm touch typing. One gap I really disliked is the one before the second Hornet fight.
I charge crystal dash which as you said is fun because well it's cryst-
I hit a wall.
And then I jump up and then I
charge
crystal
dash
again and it's fully charged and I'm speeding thr-
I hit a wall.
And then I jump up and I
charge
crystal
dash
and this is every time you die to a boss that requires you be in a calm state of mind.
The problem is with the geography. The fastest way through is repeatedly crystal dashing and getting interrupted. The gap before the first Hornet fight is much less frustrating, despite being roughly the same length, because you're just walking without being stopped. If the second gap had more walls so that crystal dashing was inefficient, it'd be much better.
My favorite walk-back is the one that forced me to spend a lot of time on it, weirdly enough. It's the walk-back to the Soul Master boss in City of Tears. It's nice because it made me appreciate the castle on my trips back to the boss.
Finally someone else to share the pain of having read a love triangle romance manga and getting over invested in it just for it to hurt you by having a terrible ending. I never read ichigo but I very much relate to the thought "not a day goes by where I don't regret reading that manga." Good vid btw keep it up.
What's her name? Nisekoi? Bokuben?
@@Kastor774 I actually read Nisekoi. Wasn't too hurt by it, personally.
The one I actually relate this to more is Katekyo Hitman Reborn! Mainly because there's 300+ chapters of trying to make Tsuna actually be a confident person, and then the final chapter is almost literally re-hashing the first without any sort of payoff of whether or not he actually gets his girl.
@@Kastor774 Hey, at least BokuBen gave us the multiple endings! I think they were all pretty satisfying. The only Harem manga I don't regret finishing.
Worse than a terrible ending is when it drags on forever by pulling out improbable plot contrivances when it should have ended chapters ago.
Looking at you, DomeKano... ( è_é)
@@Biouke ik how it feels
i witnessed it go downhill every week when it was running
It's important to note that the gap can be a core part of the game or it can be completely divorced from the main gameplay. The time before a boss in a roguelike can be just as important if not more important than the boss itself. In Hades I finally managed to defeat the titular boss himself not because I mastered his patterns, but because I mastered everything before him. I had enough skill to play the early game well, get lots of resources, and pick the right boons for a powerful build.
On the opposite side of the spectrum is Dark Souls elevators. All they do is make the player wait. It's essentially just a loading screen; there's no gameplay to be had. It's just Ornstein and Smough putting you in the timeout chair for being bad at the game. The rest of the run back to the boss is fine; it's a test of how many resources you can save for the boss fight. Mastering the area before the boss can mean the difference between going into the fight with 10 flasks and going into the fight with a quarter health and zero flasks. If you're a mage, how many spell slots/FP can you save for the boss?
The Celeste example you mentioned is a great example of why gaps can be good. I experienced the same issue where I just got worse and worse each attempt until I finally gave up. Without anything to break up the space between attempts you just keep getting more and more tense and never take a breath.
Maybe in the end this is just a question of pacing in a game. Too much of the same type of gameplay for a long stretch of time can be bad regardless of its intentions. Ideally we want to give the player some control over the pacing; let them put their nose to the grindstone if they want. If they're having fun trying to learn the boss why punish them? If they need a break give them some alternative activities to do; let them go shopping, do a sidequest, take in a scenic view, or listen to some of the game's music.
Gaps are just another tool in the game designer's toolbox. It's up to the designer to decide when and where they're needed.
In the end it's just one more thing to improve a game, or one more thing to mess it up.
This is what I can’t put into words. Thank you, this is exactly what I think
That elevator in Anor Londo just before the archery club oh my god, nearly made me uninstall the game.
Yes, THIS.
And this is making me think about how I don't actually like games where 'git gud' is entirely about being able to very quickly react to a whole bunch of stimulus right now all in a row and okay now you're done. (I am not a big fan of platformers.) I like strategizing! I like being able to think about certain decisions, whether it's 'what complicated many-step build should I plan to assemble from this skill tree?', or just 'is it worth my time/HP to take out that minor enemy right now or not?' , alongside also getting to react in fights themselves. I like getting better at making those decisions. That's as much a part of skillbuilding and getting good, for me, as just learning which buttons to mash how fast and when, and honestly often a much more fun one.
A game with a big boss fight that kills me over and over because I can't dodge-roll-counter fast enough is going to lose me real fast. A game with a big boss fight that keeps killing me because I can't figure out how to shepherd enough hp or mp to muscle my way through is going to get me re-running it again and again. (Witness my Hades playcount.)
I know that's not how everybody likes to play games, which means that places where gaps work for me don't necessarily work for everybody else and vice versa. If I lose a boss fight once I'm not likely to even try it again if I can help it unless I've done some grinding/practicing/prepping elsewhere. I think the thing you said about choices is spot-on; different games are made for different kind of players, but a really great game can accommodate people who want very different playing experiences, gaps included.
The Hades example you gave really highlights the core issue. It really is just a matter of meaning. Most downtime is either completely meaningless, or meaningful only in a very asymmetrical, negative sense. You're punished for playing badly, but not rewarded for playing well. Not in ways that are relevant to your current goal of beating the boss anyway. Even Estus flasks/spells in Souls are basically you attempting to preserve your default state (something players will feel entitled to) rather than trying your best to earn an advantage.
Silly example, but if the games looked at how cleanly & quickly you made it back to the boss and gave you a damage & defense boost proportional to your performance, that would make the relationship more symmetrical.
For me the best example is time trial in racing games. It's difficult to make early turns feel like filler because any gains you get will give you a head start when doing later turns/positively impact your times.
You also have some more primitive mechanics that capture this idea. Many games had extra lives that let you attempt the boss several times before restarting the level, Castlevania and other games have weapon energy, some games like Ghouls N Ghosts have power ups that let you melt bosses, etc.
I think this route is a lot more interesting to explore for designers than trying to find the average player's boredom threshold.
I love Dark Souls 1 to 3, but what you said actually annoyed me about the aspects of those games, which were basically mitigating health and flask loss BEFORE a major boss.
It's why I genuinely love Sekiro, the game knows you instantly need to come back to a major boss and they give you a clear, short path to it.
This is why I like Elden Ring. I literally got to practice combat using one of the giants roaming in the open world. That prepared me for one of the boss fights. The open world let’s practice combat until you’re confident enough to take on harder enemies. I haven’t encountered any pre-boss gauntlets that caused grief yet.
What parts gave you trouble?
@@vodago dident ask but he dident answer, on my first playthrough mogh was my first reeeeeaaaal challenge, like days.. but I beat that pedos ass
I bet you'll love Dark Souls 2
Elden Ring has the most fair respawn points in the SoulsBorne games tbh (same with Sekiro). Very rarely, if ever, did I find the run back to a boss laborious or a time-waster. The run-backs in some of the older games however made me want to pull my fingernails out
@@lonelyshpee7873 unlime majority, Dark Souls 2 is my favorite.
The biggest time saving tip I can give for Dark Souls is to always send the elevator back up/down after you use it when you know you're going for a boss fight. It quite literally cuts the wait time in half because now you only need to wait for one trip rather than wait for the elevator to come to you and then wait again for it to go back. Just step on big button on the floor and leave before it starts moving again.
Bug Fables is one of the games that best manage this "gap" by making you choice whether you want to start the battle all over again or go back to your last checkpoint. And you can even change your loadout and then try again right away too, if you so feel inclined. So it's the player's choice if they want to jump right back into the action or take a few steps back to reflect on things before trying again. The catch is that this only happens during important fights, so if you die to a random encounter then it's back to the last save point, so it's not really coddling you, either. It's just quality of life.
YES! I have such a struggle with RPGs because there's an inevitable save point before the two minutes of dialogue before the boss fight. It's not an experiential walk back, it's not reflection time, it's just me mashing through menus. More RPGs need to do that Bug Fables thing and just give the option.
Heyyyyy someone else mentioned bug fables!
Almost sounds like Elden Ring with the Sites of Grace and the Stakes of Marika. Not quite but it has almost the same effect of giving you the choice to jump right back in or wait a bit to breathe and think.
@@xantishayde-walker4593 people hate Malenia but the fact her boss door is RIGHT next to the stake for me made me rage much less. The time I spent fighting her VASTLY outnumbered the time I spent getting to her.
This made me not feel too frustrated with each death knowing I could be back at it in a bit.
And I choose when I hit that "I need a break" moment not the game. I know when I need to quit the game doesn't
I've always wondered about this ever since starting making games. Checkpoints have always been a struggle because of that.
because it depends so much on the person. But it seems like ultimately as long as it's not too taxing a treck back isn't so bad?
I personally adored how it worked in Ori and the Blind Forest where you set your OWN save spots which were checpoints. Used up some magic but that was the price for having a checkpoint where you liked, and forgetting to do so forced the long trek on yourself.
YES. I hope more games implement Ori's way of doing checkpoints/saving!
I do feel that Ori's saving system needs some tweaking, even though I really liked it as it created some tense situations where you're out of magic and desperately need to save or you'll lose a bunch of progress, however on some occasions it made the game way to easy with being able to save practically anywhere and respawn immediately, while on other occasions it became really frustrating when after not saving for a while I'd run into some unexpected trap and lose a ton of progress. I have yet to play will of the wisps so maybe it's been handled better there but I also feel like magic wasn't really useful for anything other than saving so the choice to save rarely felt like an important one and I just ended up saving the game whenever I had some spare magic and was missing a bit of health, as there was literally no reason for me not to do so.
The mana is so abundant that it was never really a tough decision to make
@@tmsmeister7603 in will of the wisps it's removed entirely. It's just auto checkpoints and set save points.
The problem here is that now you're asking the player to do something. You've made saving a game mechanic, which means the player will assume that he should abuse it as much as possible. You'll endup with players spending a lot of time thinking about where the optimal place for the spawn point is, and some players might just not care, and then endup suffering as a consequence, while other players will over-optimize the hell out of it and make the game rediculously boring by somehow completely defeating the purpose of death. A perma-death game for example provides the player with a clear message: dying is bad. A game where death essentially doesn't matter means that dying matters not.
You'll have to engineer this mechanic in order for it to be worth anything at all, such as forcing the player to do a certain set of actions in order for him to get another spawn point. This could take 30 seconds, 60 seconds, 90 seconds... do you see how you're just back to the space inbetween? You've re-engineered spawn points as being a subtask, but now the player still needs to waste time with the subtask and so it's essentially equivalent in terms of time wasted. This is without talking about the developement time for the feature. It's pretty obvious why the spawn points are done in such a way that every map designer can choose how far away the spawnpoint is from the gameplay, because this allows the map designer to choose how the map feels to the player, whether respawning is painful or not. If you want to have a game mechanic that allows the player and game dev to choose, then you've effectively complicated things further, on top of having to teach said mechanic to the player, you'll have to teach your game designer how to do use it, you'll have to program it into the game, and then you'll have to address all the bugs and confused players.
For bosses I like a short walk, with 1-2 weak enemies. That lets me cool down and then warm up.
It takes away the feeling of being coddled.
But actual distance mostly depends on how many times I have to retread the level and how hard the boss is. If I can not defeat the boss because of that loss of productivity due to being interrupted, that is when it bothers me.
7:28 I'm pretty sure I reached the pinnacle of efficiency at the Soul Sanctum speedrun to Soul Master in Hollow Knight. I even smacked the elevators on my way past to send them back down for the next trip.
God I hate the Soul Sanctum.
Edit: This entire video is hilarious in the context of dying in League of Legends
Fuck that place, but the music fucking slaps.
The elevator for te next try is real
Initially, I forgot you had a sponsored segment so I was like : "How the hell is he going to transition from the topic of baldness to the most important place in gaming" 😂
"Sometimes, the space between your eyebrows and your hairline is like the walk from the checkpoint to the boss: they're too far away"
I would like to call this void of space between respawn and boss room “tension space”
You could actually define it as a liminal space
@@JohnnoNonno I think OPs makes more sense, not sure how that would be a liminal space
@@seamus4A the definition of liminal is relating to transitions or thresholds
I hear what you're saying about gaps helping the player to calm down, but if that's the case, I wish more gaps were like the one leading up to the main boss of Dark Souls 3. No spoilers, but to get to the main boss, you have to walk a long distance, but it's just that, walking. No bad guys in the way or jumps you need to make. That way you can clear your head without constantly getting bopped on the head by things you don't care about.
The problem is that the game wants you to focus even on the path. Not to just go mindlessly till you reach the boss
@@saphinadarkness2502 and that’s just bothersome
@@Fiddy. it may be for you. The idea is that the game is more than just beating shit up
@@saphinadarkness2502 my bad I thought u meant something else
Yeah. Roads with enemies sucks because usually, I would be so angry that I tried to skip killing the minions altogether and ended up dying to them because I just run through them in order to get to the boss faster which feeds the loop of repeating the way to boss battle even more which leads to frustration and eventually, rage quit.
I've never found the time between helpful, it's only ever added to the frustration. If it has enemies, even more so. Only walking away ever actually seems to help.
I think the “vigilance decrement” section of the video taught me a lot about how I play video games. I once got so tunnel-visioned and stressed in hollow knight that I haven’t played it in months. I think this video will make me give it a second chance, just with quite a few breaks in between.
Same! I kept trying and trying in Pantheon 4 and I just couldn't get to the first rest point! I thought "I'm just not good enough for this game" and stopped playing, defeated. Maybe one day, I'll take all the lessons I learned from Psych of Play, and I'll go back to one of my favorite video games.
@@gribberoni That’s a bit strange, I found the first half of P4 pretty easy compared to P3. Enraged Guardian and Traitor Lord are mostly just soul batteries that might occasionally get hit you once, white defender is pretty easy once you learn his pattern, and if using Defender’s Crest can make Lost Kin way easier, and you can swap it out for your Pure Vessel build at the bench.
When you die in Mirror’s edge catalyst, it gives you a zen moment before respawning. It gives you a respawn right next to where you died. But it really helps your performance when you just breathe.
I have been playing though that. I don’t know it kind of makes me mad. Why do I have to wait 10 seconds to respawn 8 meters back
Not too long ago, I was playing Destiny 2(I play it religiously) and I was running through the dungeon “The Shattered Throne” for a exotic weapon quest. I had slowly edged my way through the dungeon, avoiding direct engagements with tough enemies, and this took excruciatingly long. Until I got the a section called “The Descent”.
“The Descent” consists of hordes of enemies and a boss to kill to open a door, to enter a room with even more enemies you need to snipe, if you intend to go through it without dying and having to go back to the start. For me(being not to good at Destiny), it wasn’t hard but it was more time-consuming then I would’ve liked. And then I entered the next room.
This room contained a ceiling, and 4 walls. No floor, just and infinite abyss. The only way to get across the room is to walk across a series of beams, whilst avoiding suddenly spawning enemies and spinning obstacles which will knock you off and into the pit.
The most frustrating part seems to be the most insignificant. The beams had gaps at where they joined. Large enough to fall into, small enough to jump over. But they weren’t the distance a standard jump reached, they were slightly shorter. This, for some reason, terrified me. I felt like I was in a childhood nightmare of a high tower, or crane. The reason because of this fear was that, even if I make the slightest misjudgment or slip, and fall into the blue-black shroud below me, I would have to painstakingly replay the entire of “The Descent”.
I must of ran through it and testing hundreds of different ways to speed up the burden of repeating this task for each slight stumble I would inevitably make across those god-forsaken beams. I would get there again and again, and after a while, I found myself shaking when I stood before the narrow walkways. I probably doubled my currency doing that one section. I got so frustrated of killing the same boss, sniping the enemies, slipping or falling short of those beams that I eventually just gave up.
Yup that’s it. I gave up.
There’s no real reason I’m writing this other than to relate to the pain of walking the path of shame up to a difficult section of a game.
And there’s no real structure to this either, so sucks to be you reading this. Peace.
Do you think you could do a video on self-imposed challenges, like the player restricting themself to one type of weapon, one element of magic, not leveling up, and so on? I've done a few of these in various games (mostly in the dark souls trilogy), and I think that would make for an interesting video.
I definitely experienced that fading in focus with repetition during Celeste. I reached the summit segment super late at night and was pushing through to try to finish since I was so very close, but there was one extended segment that absolutely stopped me. I was locked there for 30 minutes of continuous deaths over and over, until I eventually gave up because I knew I wasn't gonna make it. So I stopped, headed to bed, and then tried again in the morning. Did it first try. Later stuff killed me a bit, but I blazed through the entire rest of it with minimal issues. It just goes to show that sometimes a break really is all you need.
Another notable thing is how that gap is populated. Fromsoft has been getting better at this with their boss shortcuts, most notably in Bloodborne from my experience. Getting to Ornstein and Smough in DS1 is a pain in the ass both due to the sheer length of the gap but also because there's a non-negligible threat along that path, meaning you could be killed and lose the souls left in their room or just have to make the trek all over again. A huge pain in the ass for minimal benefit because you don't get a "break" during the traversal back, you have to fight your way there. And that can be valuable as well, for what its worth, as mentioned with roguelikes, but it's tedious when combined with the length of the trek there. Compare Bloodborne, where I found basically all of the treks to bosses once you found the areas core shortcut to be decently lengthy but rarely especially treacherous, and I would appreciate the short break for allowing my mind a bit of time to chill. It allowed me to think about and anticipate the boss I was about to face, without adding much in the way of extra stress to the experience of getting there.
17:13 as a person with autism and extreme sensory overload, yes, yes I do, and yes, the tags are super annoying if any of my clothes are itchy it effects me a lot. I literally take medicine for that stuff.
Two examples, both from Demon's Souls about the difference between a good walk and a bad walk:
1) In the first part of Boletaria, you run across a bridge-like structure with lots of easy enemies. When you started this game, the bridge itself was a problem, but now you're clearing these guys easily. The instance where you succeed is one where you cross the bridge absolutely decimating this small army, then enter the boss arena with Phalanx and kick his butt. The run up feels to me like part of the experience. You're "storming the castle" and killing its guardian, finally fighting your way into its walls.
2) It's your 132nd attempt to kill Flamelurker. He's again exploded, one-shotting you. You can now either slowly wind your way back down past enemies that take a lot of damage, or you can do an aggravating platforming puzzle. Doing either adds nothing to the experience of fighting Flamelurker. They aren't thematically or mechanically linked. You aren't practicing Flamelurker murder skills. And often the run up to the boss room is longer than the boss fight itself.
I don't do Kaizo, but if I did, I'd be glad that most are a series of challenges instead of a challenge, then a checkpoint, then another challenge. For me, my brain can easily make "perfectly execute this level" into a single challenge I know it will feel satisfying to overcome. It's not just doing the thing, it's doing the thing, and keeping your execution of the thing correct while learning a new thing, which is its own kind of challenge. Likewise, roguelikes (at least good ones) are easily conceptualized as "build a character capable of taking on this challenge in a randomized environment, then take on the boss fight." But if a Kaizo level was "do a bunch of platforming, then fight a boss" or that roguelike was instead a series of static boss fights with no checkpoints, it would be harder to think of them as one "thing."
I feel like this is very very subjective. Things that I'd easily consider a "single encounter" others would break up into multiple discrete challenges. Heck I've had more than one friend quit soulslikes because there's no checkpoint between boss phases, and I don't have any problem understanding that perspective at all. But it's that idea of "is the game trying to get me to conquer some singular challenge, or is it making me do a bunch of chores before I'm allowed to try again?" that really encapsulates good checkpointing for me.
As a game developer with ADHD I believe the core of the discussion lies at what you pointed out by the end: the studies werent made using video games as tasks.
I can clearly see the benefit of breaking monotony when working, allowing myself to wander for a few seconds or minutes before going back to a task thats taking the whole day and would certainly become insuferable if I tried to do it all in one go, but I also get extremely frustrated when I am forced to 'take a break' after I die in a video game, for example by needing to backtrack to the challenge, if Im laser focused on understanding how to overcome that challenge.
The main difference here is probably pacing.
Real world tasks that you need to push yourself through are not paced to give you a crafted experience.
More often than not, work tasks are long and boring and there's no distinguishable change of pace during it to keep your mind from numbing down and losing performance. Even in gamedev, sometimes youre just doing something youve done a thousand times before, where theres no challenge, no particular reason for you to be excited about it, and it will take you hours to complete.
In light of that, it becomes really clear why you'd benefit from creating that change of pace yourself.
In games there are specific pacing curves, meticulously crafted to deliver your the right emotions at the right time, specially in regards to challenge.
Fighting a boss is arriving at the climax of a difficulty and pacing curve after climbing through it for a long time, experiencing clearly the slow build up of tension and engagement.
The intended way for that pacing to go is that after this long build up you face a spike in challenge that you manage to overcome with a lot of effort.
What's not intended when drawing that pacing curve is for the player to repeat the buildup and spike 13 times one after the other.
Even if some retrying is accounted for, its certainly less than the player is probably gonna need to do, as not only the development team tends to understimate how much better they are at their own games than the average player but also because this is an old and cursed problem in game design that has no silver bullet to solve and no one really wants to admit theyre designing an encounter/level that realistic would cause way more frustration than theyre able to account for. Its easy to justify to yourself "it just takes skill and patience" and pretend your not frustating and alienating a huge part of your playerbase.
Doing that completely breaks the expectations both the player and the designer had for how that rollercoaster of emotions would go and results in this controversial experience that no one really likes but wouldnt really know how to fix.
I also agree that just respawing you at the most optimal point to avoid frustration kinda breaks some games and designs but it is a fact that most games are carefuly crafted experiences that only really deliver whats intended if the player goes through them in the exact way the designers expected, and any departure from that creates dissonance, which is sometimes unavoiadable.
Also the very clear reason why Hades works so well as a roguelike.
The narrative isnt just some tacked-on justification for the design and mechanics, a huge part of the crafted experience is experiencig its narrative and seeing it develop in real time.
The whole game is paced so that when you fail a mechanical challenge it keeps delivering and building up in narrative and character mechanics. You dont even feel like it set you back because a lot of the important parts of it just keep progressing (in fact, they need you to die to actually move forward) so the pacing curve doesnt get stuck on a unpredicted loop that the narrative pretends never happened, it integrates the failure loop back into progression in a satisfactory way that feels natural and necessary.
Well, the issue is: maybe you shouldnt be laser focused on the boss and treat every single thing in your path as a serious matter, independtly of how many times have you seen them. Otherwise youre under what its called Tunnel Vision where you focus so much on one thing you get punished for not paying attention to whats not on your sight. Everything should be on your sight.
when the solution to a game design issue is "the player should just think differently" thats not a solution.
@@gamongames but it kinda is. If you go to a farming sim expecting instant gratification you're not gonna get it. If you go to a fast paced hack and Slash when you want to relax you're not gonna get it. On top of that, it's not a matter of solutions. There's nothing to solve. If you don't like the buildup to a certain plot point in a book that is not the books fault and you can't ask to change that nor its your fault for not liking it but the writer pretended you like that.
again, easy to say but doesnt make you a good designer.
Was the first study on the coins replicated in other countries? Or different age groups? I'm curious if participants would be more or less willing to wait depending on personality/experience/upbringing.
I immediately was reminded of "the marshmallow experiment" that tested children's ability to delay gratification, although a quick google search to refresh myself on the details is showing me some articles that say socioeconomic background has an impact on the outcome of the test? which makes me wonder if there is a similar effect in this coin study.
@@FlyToTheRain yeah but also children are going to have a much worse ability to delay gratification than adults. So the marshmallow test doesnt surprise me but the coin test does. I feel like theres no way i wouldnt always click the big coin unless the difference in value was actually arbitrary or the time was super long but the way it was portrayed here makes me think neither are the case. Basically, unless ur super rich and the money means nothing why would you not wait a few extra minutes in total for more money? (Again assuming its not like $30 vs $31 or something)
Maybe I was a bit late, but I think a big factor about the "walk back" is the path itself. Music, visual arts, and ambient storytelling help us take that much-needed break. Because playing is not just the "action part", but the whole game itself, even sitting on a bench in Hollow Knight, breathing and listening to the world around us before moving again.
And then there are players like me, who when _forced_ to take a break, won't ever improve.
I hardly ever care about the scenery, graphical fidelity is pointless to me if the story isn't the main focus of a game, even music will get grating to me if I'm forced through same long areas several times in a row.
My favorite gaps have ways I can get better at traversing the gap. Those little improvements - moving faster through the gap, or avoiding damage that I didn't evade the first time - puts me in a better headspace for dealing with the same old challenge after the wait.
22:34 as someone who has gotten the golden strawberry on that level, seeing you dash up-left instantly triggered my mind to go “what are you doing you’re supposed to go up, up-right!” 😂
Thank you daryl now I can't unsee my nose lol
In my opinion, one major factor is how information-dense the challenge is. If you have to worry about a half-dozen attacks that all require different responses or working through a complex web of strategy, then a break helps the player to review and revise their attempts. If it's more about following a consistent pattern or using simple mechanics at the right time, then long gaps risk making players forget what helped them the previous time.
I have a much simpler expectation: the walk back must allow me to exercise the skills I need for that boss. It's lower pressure practice of parries, dodges, or whatever.
If there is a disconnect between the adds on the way and the boss's moveset, and thus it doesn't help me, then I hate it. Otherwise, I respect it.
The fuckin' Ichigo 100% metaphor was amazing. 10/10 video. Also yoooo Ohio University got a shout-out, nice!
Now that I'm able to process things a bit better, didn't you actually do a video on the 'vigilance decrement' or bring it up in the past? Or maybe it was related to tilting in some way, because I definitely had the big 'aha!' moment when watching something along those lines. Like I could feel myself going from 'this is routine' to constantly needing to do mental double-takes.
Also yeah, 100% agreed about 'please don't spawn me right at the boss because i feel coddled.' Like, even just going through a door from the respawn point or a short corridor with literally 0 danger feels better. I'm not sure what game it was, but when I saw the clip of you(?) dying to that samurai-lookin' boss and then just... getting dropped right at the start, without even a buffer to get back into the mental zone or flow state? It gave me a mild hit of aversion that I don't quite know how to explain.
I’m so glad you appreciated the Ichigo reference 😅
And yes! That was the “when rage quitting helps” video, about the yerkes dodson law. Not about the vigilance decrement specifically, but certainly related in a big way.
That ending still hurts me.
I think I experienced this very recently while playing FFXIV. I was trying to clear Endwalker's Trial 2 EX and I've gotten to the point where I've effectively mastered the fight; I've internalized all the mechanics, my rotation is solid, and I've even successfully hit the enrage timer without dying a single time. Essentially, I had hit my own personal ceiling for the fight and there was nothing more I could do to improve or contribute more towards the group's success, so my chances of winning the fight had nothing more to do with my personal input, but largely depended on the other seven players to perform well enough as well. After several nights of party finder groups failing to clear the trial, I was getting extremely frustrated; after all, I *already* know the fight, so how is it that I can make absolutely zero mistakes and still fail? And with each wipe my face kept sinking deeper into my palms until the frustration started getting to me; I started making mistakes I shouldn't have, and I start contributing to the group's failure. Obviously taking a break sounds like it should be the best option, but it would just continue to happen night after night and start to wear me down.
On the night I finally succeeded, I rejoined with my static that I had first learned the fight with. Again as usual, I was going through the motions and doing my best to play out the routine I've become so intimately familiar with. And after shaking off some rust, I'm back to my normal stride. Even though the rest of the group hadn't quite hit my level of mastery with this fight, I somehow did not feel my patience and skill deteriorating with each wipe like I had earlier in the week with party finder groups. Instead, I could feel the rest of the group improving little by little, and that possibility of victory actually getting closer and closer. So I stayed determined, and even found ways to raise the ceiling for myself and improve even more (I started working Tinctures into my openers; it was getting REALLY sweaty). Just feeling those *inches* of progress was more than enough motivation to continue, and we eventually cleared the fight together, within *milliseconds* of the enrage.
So I guess the moral of the story is that the feeling of change and progress really did help push me out of a rut.
See, this is why I enjoy playing healer in FFXIV, because it makes me feel like I have control over other people's chances at success. While of course there are situations where everyone just dies in a big cascade and failure is imminent, the number of times that I feel I meaningfully extended how far our group got in EX and Savage trials always made me feel like I had window to improve.
Of course, I do get annoyed when people die to the same thing consistently over and over, but I also kinda love it, because it means I can correct the course of the fight for the better. Even if we fail the DPS check, even if we die later anyways, I still helped us push further.
Maybe there's a mechanic coming up that needs everyone to be alive and I manage to bring that one person back just in time, to see the group get itself back together and pull it off, with full knowledge that *I made it happen.*
@@TheHazelnoot My brother is a Red Mage main and this is the pride he takes in his class; the unparalleled ability to course correct and save a bad run, AND still top the DPS charts. He really makes the class look like an art form.
It's been years but I still remember that one Seymour fight in FFX on the mountain. I died so many times, and since my mom hadn't broken down and paid for internet yet, I was on my own to figure that one out. Dying and walking back again and again (with a cutscene if I remember correctly?) was infinitely more annoying than even the lightning dodge puzzle.
Hey, that transition at 19:13 from Metroid do Dark Souls was SICK!!
Wait, people are offended by checkout separators? They serve a useful purpose. 🤦♀️
They think that games are best as mobile free to plays
was confused by that xd
Never in my life have I heard people being annoyed by checkout seperators until now.
@@31ll087 yeah, it's an entirely alien perspective to me, I get annoyed when the person ahead doesn't put the checkout seperator after their purchases. Especially when cashiers are too lazy to make them reachable by the people farther back.
your icon is perfect for those words.
Metroidvanias really are the best kind of games for the space between. Their whole jam is the world around you and how you can interact with it. As you said, they allow you the opportunity to try something else for now and come back to this later. The thing most people don't realize is that Dark Souls *is* a Metroidvania. The story is told through the world and its state. The whole map is interconnected and by progressing you find shortcuts that let you return to some places faster or to earlier locations without a second thought. Dark Souls also asks its players to take their time and meet the game at its pace, rather than their own, and that's what made them so refreshing when they were new and what made "souls-like" the genre it is today. Whether you call it the space between or the salty runback, it all depends on perspective.
One thing I really liked about Hades is that when you die, you get to go to the hubworld, hang out with characters who have fresh dialogue, continue character story arcs, buy upgrades and redecorate, practice with your weapons etc
Similarly there's an indie roguelike called Moonlighter that I really enjoyed where when you die, you can open your shop and play a merchant-y type game and sell the stuff you found while doing the main part of the game
Those are two roguelikes I've played where dying was actually pretty fun. I had a lot of fun going through the dungeons, but then I also had a lot of fun goofing around in the hubworld. These games made the "wait before trying again" into something really fresh and exciting. I think a lot of devs could learn from that and find ways to make even dying and respawning fun.
Retreading ground after respawning in dark souls *can* be fun, but frankly it wears thin pretty quickly. After a few attempts it goes from "having fun in the boss fight > dying > having fun trying to reach the boss again" to "having fun in the boss fight > dying > trying to reach the boss again for the 50th time and getting pretty fucking sick of it"
Likewise with Celeste, I really loved that game, but all my least favourite memories were the really long screens where you had to retread old ground over and over again to get to the fun stuff (well that and the feather mechanic. Fuck that feather lmao)
While all the best memories I have of that game (other than the story and characters) were trying tiny challenges over and over again and finally beating them before they get too old, and getting to move on to the next challenge
"Do you feel the shirt on your back?"
As a person with sensory processing issues, dear gods do I wish I didn't! It's gotten better with age but for the longest time I couldn't wear wool or wool blends because the texture was so distracting. Even now I can only wear wool as an outer layer for any significant length of time.
It's always interesting to think about how different reality is for every individual person. The jabber of a quarter-filled office isn't much to most people, but for me to get anything done, I have to put on instrumental music with earplug style earbuds.
This is probably part why I can't get into roguelikes or action-oriented games. I die thanks to garbage reflexes, I notice the space between too much, get discouraged, and go back to something purely turn-based or slow-paced to give me time to think everything through. FTL is the main exception thanks to the pause button making battles able to be played practically turn-based.
Hypersensitivity and hyperfocus are like well-written superpowers since they're both a blessing and a curse. I can be amazing in a laboratory and terrible in a crowd. I like to make art but tend to perseverate on not-fully-erased lines too much.
btw have you tried FTL:Multiverse its basically a sequel
no one cares about your issue
16:30 As a Mario kaizo player, I’ve noticed this is really true. After making good progress through a difficult section like a Celeste C-side, there is often a short slump where I can’t get past the earlier obstacles consistently, even though I’d have done them dozens or hundreds of times already. The flow state is interrupted, and everything is as hard as it was when I started. It’s interesting to see this phenomena is a real thing. Great video!
I also play kaizo mario and had the same experience
I remember somewhere around what was probably my 20th try against Hornet Sentinel in Hollow Knight, I got hit by my shade right before the boss fight and I was furious. After I stubbornly started trekking back to the bench, I realized I was getting so frustrated that I was making stupid mistakes before the boss fight even started. I took a break for a few minutes and when I came back I beat hornet again on my second attempt.
here we go again, daryl hitting the core of my soul once more
the pro walk bit, the circle illusion they all cleared up for me in one moment. and when he asked the bit about the shirt, the celeste peak c side flashbacks came back so god damn hard, back then I felt like I could taste the individual dust particles from the air yet could not focus on the level.
I find it interesting how important a game's initial load time is when determining which game I'll play. There have been times when the game I'll be playing for hours is strongly influenced by an extra minute of delay, even if the other game might be a little more enjoyable. It's similar to how people are quick to vote that they'd rather spawn right next to the boss, even if it means the boss could be less fun.
0:18 What I’ve heard is that it gets passed from mother to son. So your grandpa is bald cause it ran his mom’s side, your dad isn’t bald cause it didn’t run on his mom’s side.
7:06 1st) I believe in duality. 2nd) The body prefers now, always, because the body has 0% certainty it will still be alive for the later reward. We, the soul or meat-AI, are what provides the body with probabilistic certainty, we can say to ourselves “nah we’re not gonna die in the 3 sec/min/day/year wait.” We experience the body’s desire as our own though, so it takes having certain perspectives to realize we can wait. That’s my take at least.
17:19 Dude, yes, always. That’s not normal is it?
For me, the walk back depends on my mental state in the moment; the first time, no props; after 20 deaths, “ugh I’ll come back and play this later.”
Having the player make their way back to the boss does make it more tedious, but is also makes each attempt more important. Nobody wants to rewalk through that section over and over again, so people will generally be more careful with each attempt to maximize new discoveries.
a fascinating coincidence is the fact that some old retro games actually countered this problem on both ends with Lives.
in Mega Man for example, as long as you have lives before a boss you start just a corridor away. the instant you don't, the gap becomes dramatically bigger.
it's giving you the continous flow and learning state by letting you tackle a boss multiple times, yet it's also giving you the needed gap to where it doesn't fade into monotonicity after enough tries
Shadow of the Colossus makes great use of this concept, since it only consists of boss battles and spaces in between. One of the best games ever made.
unskippable cutscenes can act like this. possessed riku in KH1 was SUCH a hassle to get through because not only was it a tough fight for a 12 year old, but i also had to sit through the EVERLASTING DARKNESS speech so many times that by the time i was ready to fight i was 212% annoyed
I'm new here and just wanted to say I really enjoy your content. It's so rare for people to jus simply discuss things anymore. I like how you break down complex themes and apply to video games which are often deceptively simple in there presentation. Personally the space between for me is a love hate relationship. Looking forward to more great content!
Always love the final words of every video. You’ve shown me a completely new perspective on gaming that I didn’t think was possible. Thank you for everything!😊
Maybe NES/SNES era platformers like Megaman had the correct idea by giving you a checkpoint before the boss that you'd go back to as long as you had lives, but once those were gone, it was all the way back to the beginning. A good mix of letting you practice and giving you time to process things (or just go to a completely different level altogether.)
The game I feel did this the best for me was Megaman X4. You have a limited amount of lives you can use against the boss from a checkpoint one room before them. Once you run out, you start at the beginning of the stage's second half. This gap not only provided a nice breather from the boss that simultaneously makes every boss attempt matter, but also challenges you to master the challenge that the gap section presents. You learn to do it faster, taking less damage, losing fewer lives and mastering your resources. Before you know it, you're blazing through the level with great speed and efficiency, and you've earned every resource that you can now use against the boss
I consider Traitor Lord to be the most annoying boss in Hollow Knight, because the nearest bench is separated from the boss room by annoying enemies and a difficult platforming segment. However, recently in playing through the game again, I found a bench in Greenpath that, while almost 50% further away, was nearly devoid of enemies, and all platforming challenges involved were completely bypassed with Isma’s tear and the Monarch Wings. So even though it was definitely a longer trek between attempts, it felt a lot more like a relaxing breather than a meat grinder.
I absolutely love your channel and your videos man, im glad youtube recommended me your stuff, learning interesting things on each video i've watched from you so far!
Great video! I was actually just talking about this with my partners yesterday, so it was cool to see it covered. There is one thing I think went without much mention here that I want to bring up: Anxiety. The walk back raises the stakes of failure significantly, its not just that they give a time for us to reflect on our mistakes they also make us (or some people with anxiety at least, namely me) fear failure that much more. You mentioned it briefly when saying that "it preserves the atmosphere" and I think its along similar lines but also slightly different, it doesn't just make me more intentional with the boss fights it makes me actively scared of them and afraid of failure. I get this "whats the point of going past all these enemies if im just going to die at the boss?" feeling, and its what keeps me from enjoying a lot of souls likes and is one of the big reasons games like hades and sekiro sit unfinished in my library. I LOVE Celeste and I think one of the main reasons is because of this. Its partially because of the fast respawn times like you said, but it doesn't just make it easier to do another attempt, it makes it easier to fail. and for someone like me, with such fear of failure, having the game actively encourage dying means the world. I think people often conflate this walk back with difficulty and I somewhat resent that, Celeste is the hardest game Ive ever played by quite a long shot (c sides and chapter nine at least, and ive played ds3, sekiro, hollowknight and plenty of other "hard" games), but its not nearly as *punishing* as those other games. It demands perfection but it doesn't hurt you for not having it, it just says "here: try again. You can do this" and I love it for that
just my thoughts, id be curious if anyone else has similar experiences
The entire time I'm watching this I keep thinking something along the lines of "Okay yeah Dark Souls boss, but what about the walk back to revenge kill the enemy player in a FPS". I'm sure there's other examples too, that one just became prominent.
Incredible video as always!
And a topic that isn’t nearly researched and delved into enough in gaming video essays.
I often decry the “long walk back” to a boss or challenge in games, but it is good to also consider the possible positives as you mention.
That being said, I wish Dark Souls respected my time more 😄
Banger video, awesome start to the year mate!
To me the most frustrating part of dying and having to walk back is not the walk itself, unless it is absurd. To me, the most offensive part is when games basically laugh at you by chaining an extremely long death animation, followed by potentially the boss taunting you, then kicking you back to a loading screen, a respawn animation, etc. All that just so you can even put your hands back on the controller and even **start** making your way back.
I think for me, it depends on the time in that space, and the difficulty of that space. If I have to traverse through a hard as balls area for 5 minutes just to get to a boss only to die. Ya, I'm getting mad. Honestly that long of an area for that long of a time sounds honest to god frustrating and might result in me dropping the game. If it's a 30-second chill space with only a couple enemies you know how to fight then I think that's good. It gives you time to breathe and think about your last run. Honestly, anything thing over 2 minutes would be too much but that's just me. If its a rouge-like it's a completely different story.
3:58 every deep analysis CZcams video ever.
Also, 15:49 made me laugh way harder than it probably should have.
For me, when dealing with a challenging enemy, I do not like to respawn right next to it where I can just move a couple feet and rematch. I prefer to have a slight challenge to get back to it. It has to be challenging enough that if I dont focus on it I could die so that my focus can be taken away from the big challenge. This allows me to have better focus and awareness of the big challenge when I do get back.
16:50 This is true in some games where "the space in between" contains a difficult platforming challenge or similar. Now the boss has become two challenges
Daryl : uses a metaphors
Also Daryl : **instant regret**
One of my favourite bosses in the Soulsborne series is Lady Maria of the Astral Clocktower. Part of this is her design, lore, voice acting, music etc.
The biggest reason? The last checkpoint is about 5 steps from the arena.
This video really resonated with me because the summit C side pushed me to 3 hours of autopilot attempts. I was wondering why i struggled on the beginning part after the first hour (so thanks for giving me company for that pain as well). Thanks for clearing this up for me!
18:27 - It was perfectly timed that when you said "complete disappearance from view" the dots disappeared for me exactly when you said "view". I had to rewind a couple times to see if they hadn't actually disappeared from screen at the moment because it was so perfect.
Those gaps of time between boss battles, those long walks, the loading times, I don't think they should exceed 5 seconds, but they should definitely take longer than half a second.
MegaMan, basically, got it right. At least the boss room part. Mostly. God, that game is hard without emulation.
I think if a boss is truly glorified, and you must feel a sense of reward for facing it, it should be taken in before the initial encounter. The checkpoint shouldn't be a punishment for losing. The momentum from the buildup beforehand needs to be maintained for a good boss fight to feel rewarding.
On the other hand, if a battle is meant to be a difficult learning experience, an optional challenge or a lesson from your mentor before receiving an amazing skill or upgrade, then I can understand checkpoints taking a little longer, maybe the mentor gives you a lecture each time you fail instead of sending you back immedietely.
From what I gather from games like Jump King or Getting Over It, you often learn best from repetitive tasks when you receive feedback for your mistakes, even if it's needless or chastising. A loading screen or a long walk before a battle feels more like a copout than an actual punishment. It feels cheap, at least compared to the alternatives.
One more thing. I like the idea of training dummies. Not necessarily actual training dummies, but enemies that condition or prepare you for a bigger battle. Maybe the boss has variations of these attacks, mixes them up, makes it much harder, but you've been given the learning toons to understand and best this boss. This is why I practice in the tutorial of Witcher 3 a lot. I got the muscle memory out of the way quickly, so when I needed to learn in a real fight, I didn't have to say "These controls are hard". Something to consider. Flow state can bite you in the ass as much as it helps you. Part of patience is learning to let go of flow in order to adopt a new perspective, and it can be a godsend and much easier than struggling to maintain focus, easier to take the long road instead of fighting a coursing river. Easier to dodge a boss for 10 minutes to learn it's patterns, than to flail about and suffer the walk of shame for 10 minutes.
I completely agree with you.
If I may say, my favourite fight in Hollow Knight is prolly Nightmare King Grim due to several reasons:
- boss attacks;
- pacing;
- music.
And it's also worth mentioning that if I die in that battle, I don't really suffer any drawbacks like having to kill my soul before I enter the battle. I respawn next to the dormant boss, and I just need to enter his mind with a single click of a button after which I travel like 5 seconds or so before the actual fight begins. Btw, I died a lot of times from him, but I never felt frustrated.
Speaking of HW, I really appreciated how some monsters prepared me for the bosses. There were these brute giants, which had a similar attack to the False Knight, and so the game prepared me to deal with some bosses without directly telling me what to do. It was a "show, don't tell" learning experience, which I liked a lot.
"Shouldn't exceed 5sec but should definitely be longer than half a second"
So you reckon there's a sweet spot of 4.5sec after you lose to a boss, whereby if you're not back in the action in the next 1-4 sec the entire experience is compromised? I don't understand that assertion. 🤔
Doesn't it depend much more on further context? Like what the game/challenge/reward is?
Thanks for the great insight into this very important space in games. Had a lot of fun and 2022 is starting strong. So time to do even more!
I recently wrote up a video essay about the time spent waiting in games. Now I find both Afterthoughts channel made one on mundane moments in WoW, and now yours on the wasted time between attempts, and I didnt touch on either of those topics! (I really should get my video on this out sooner than planned, lol)
Man, your video essays are just some of the best out there. Not only you support your insights with scientific papers, but you also explore interesting themes from different perspectives in a non-taken-for-granted way. There are a ton of video-essay youtuber out there, most of which are more famous than you, but I think you are among the best ones, if not the best at all. Thank you Daryl!
Thank you so much for the kind words my friend 🙏🏼
When it happens, it is annoying, but after beating the boss, it feels like it made the experience better. The thing that makes roguelikes so good, is that you always have to start over giving that break, but you never have to play the exact same thing again because of the randomness.
Right when you mentioned the space between the boss fight and respawn point I thought about the exact respawn point you showed in Bioshock. Crazy!
10:33 reminds me of “Icing the Kicker”in football, where calling a timeout to delay a field goal attempt is a strategy by the opposing team to throw off the kicker’s rhythm and make them miss. It makes sense, their adrenaline is pumping, they have all eyes on them, just about to do the task and…! Nope. Now you wait another 30 seconds and think about it more.
You don't like the conveyor dividers?
i agree with all other points raised but why on earth do you take someone using a divider to separate your groceries from theirs as a slight when that's what they're for?? that's not disrespectful my dude, that's being a good customer
You need to keep things ambiguous at checkout otherwise you are a mean guy
It definitely allows for heightened stakes. whenever youre in the boss and realize "oh god if i die now im going to have to redo the huge section prior" it really makes you on edge
Within 5 minutes I subscribed. Love the voice, love the comedy, love the pace, and damn that sauce fucking hit. Can't wait to binge everything on your channel.
This makes me appreciate the summoning in Dark Souls more. Being able to be summoned into another players world to not only help them, but practice the boss.
You will just get invaded
I've been playing over a thousand hours of Dark Souls, and I dislike the boss runbacks more and more every new run. It's not too bad when something is fresh, but when you just want to get back to "the good part" the longer runs just feel like a waste of time.
Interestingly enough some games like Code Vein makes runbacks feel less bad because there's vital resources you can only stock up on by killing enemies, so giving you a bunch of encounters is really just giving you a chance to stock up between attempts without having to take a farming break at some point... of course, every game didn't get the memo.
(Though Code Vein also has a system where your NPC ally can revive you on death, so it's more excusable to have longer walks back - you need to both make mistakes AND manage your revive resources poorly to be sent back to a checkpoint, the higher stakes are offset by you having more protection against failure)
Man your videos have gotten better since the last time I tried them! Way to grow.
Holy shit dude this video actually gave me some fantastic insight not only into my gaming, but also my meditation and mindfulness I've been working on. Thanks for all that you're doing!
jesus fuck, just send back the elevators in Souls games. no reason why you shouldn't.
For all its flaws, Dark Souls 2 actually has a tutorial for this (the elevator to the Last Giant is sent back up by a turtle knight if you die while it's on the bottom). It's a shame they never brought that back, I've seen so many newbies go through dozens of hours without realizing they can do this.
Something I think naturally flows from the topics of a “breaks and interruptions” is how those are different, a random phone call in the middle of the task is much different than a break where you can do what you want, this plays into runbacks too. In DS1 the Ornstein and Smough runback isn’t too bad because it’s almost purely running and a roll or two which serves as a nice break. While in DS2 the runback to old iron king includes multiple high hp enemies specifically placed in spots that block your path making this runback a terrible interruption to just wanting to fight the stupid boss. It all comes down to whether the runback makes you focus on something you don’t want to.
First time I ever considered the grocery dividing bar as something I need to worry about. Here I was thinking it's just an indicator for the clerk to stop scanning things in
Dude good video essays are hard to come by and yours are always good and make me think. Cheers 🎉
02:44 In Germany it is offensive NOT to place the little dividers between groceries from different people :D
This video really opened my mind! Not just in videogames, but this can actually explain why my 100% "focused" studying for a long period tends to not be productive, but when there are short breaks, I would be more focused
Damn Daryl, you've really gotten the hang of this whole youtube thing! Your charisma was through the roof in this video!
That pick loading sign optical illusion was crazy. It happens for me everytime right when you start saying "disappear"
I don’t usually comment on two-year old videos, but your discussion on the vigilance decrement made something click for me that I’ve been wondering about for years: I never understood the phenomenon where, after some initial good runs against a boss, my later attempts actually get worse if I keep attempting it.
It seems counterintuitive to how learning and attaining mastery are supposed to work, and for a while I wondered if it was something about my temperament that made repeated tries detrimental. Over time I have naturally begun taking breaks if a sequence was making me frustrated because my ability to focus and perform well takes a nosedive in that state. Now I know there’s a psychological phenomenon at play, which is kind of a relief. It’s not just me lol.
I witnessed the power of taking breaks in real time today: I’m playing Hollow Knight and had bounced off the Gruz Mother several times (much as she bounces around the arena). I took a break to explore other areas, then when I booted the game up tonight I beat her second try.
Thanks for this video!
I had the same experience in Animal well this week. I was beating my head against an optional post game platforming challenge when all my progress just started regressing. I couldn't do it until the following day.
If you're early in the game just walking around can also help with getting the controls automated so you can focus on when to do something rather than how to input it.
I recently replaced Hollow Knight. Even though it was a couple of years ago that I beat it, I've watched a bazillion let's plays and speed runs since. I know where everything is, so I thought I could just go from a to b. But nope, all that knowledge wasn't enough, I needed the exploring to work up the muscle memory to actually execute it.
@@plutus2559 Yeah, muscle memory is so key and there’s really no good replacement for executing on it yourself. Let’s Plays and streams can help you remember where things are but not how to reach them or complete a given sequence.
Hope you liked Animal Well! That one’s on my “to play” list.
@@caitlindemarismckenna3932 Animal well is up there right next to Hollow Knight as one of the best games I've played. I just love games that let me figure things out for myself.
@@plutus2559 That’s what I’ve been hearing about Animal Well, and I love that too. I saw it garner a comparison to Outer Wilds in how it lets you put the pieces together, so I’m excited to get to it.
brilliant video, made it about halfway through hearing the same thing over and over before i just decided to go do something else, really got the point across
The purple circles literally disappeared _as_ you said the word "disappearance" for me which was kinda wild timing lol. I had to go back to make sure it was just the optical illusion cuz the timing was just too perfect
Just discovered your work ! Loving it !
Elden Ring actually gives you a choice for _most_ bosses between respawning close by to try again and spawning at the last checkpoint you rested at.
Seems like that might make it objectively the best approach outside of that scenario with people being stubborn and needing that wake-up call.
Damm, your videos get better every time! Bravo! (Also, love your music choices. Glad to see Shantae got thrown in the mix lol. How do you choose your selections?)
Talking about failing an early part of a celeste level after struggling on a later part is incredibly relatable for me when I'm learning combos in fighting games. Whenever I start to figure out the later parts of the combo I'll suddenly have a half dozen attempts dropping the first cancel
I watched the 4th wall break video yet again like i never watches it before , even tho i watched it like 6times by now. Your videos are amazing thank you ! 😁
I love your tone and there are some generally comical moments in here.
7:08 In my case, yes, I am technically impatient. But it's not just because I feel impulsive, or because I don't care about taking breaks or letting other people take breaks. It's because my life is simply a disaster.
-Every moment of every day I try to watch as many loud videos as I can to distract myself from the most extreme form of environmental abuse.
-I try to enjoy those videos as much as I can.
-I try to reflect about how I could maximize every part of my mental wellbeing and I try to distance myself as much as I can from panicking and resorting to self-harm due to overwhelming anxiety, while not hyperfixating on it so much that I can't relax.
-I try to think about ways in which I could quickly and efficiently solve common problems that I could encounter if I had the possibility of having a normal life, to make myself feel like if I had the chance to save myself from this situation I would succesfully take it immediately, meaning that there would be no reason for me to feel as much anxiety about it (this is intuitive but makes no sense since humans are too ********* to stop the abuse I experience, yes, even you most likely).
Every second of my life consists of me trying to survive the abuse I experience because I experience it every minute of every day and night. Lazy severe flaws in games, internet sites, govermental functions and culture cost me almost every day in efforts to keep myself barely alive that I could've spent EASILY attaining an enjoyable life if humans were reasonable.
A lot of people forget that taking 2 HP out of a character with 100 HP counts as a loss of 2% HP, and taking 2 HP out of a character with 3 HP counts as a loss of 66% HP. And they're left with 1, as a reminder. You can swap HP for wellbeing, available time, and many other things, and it would work exactly the same way.
I think that impatience to processes that could be vastly optimized is more than justified.