Bad Atmos!! Is a 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos Setup any Good?
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- čas přidán 2. 01. 2022
- Today we talk about 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos and how it will not sound like a 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos configuration due to the way the Atmos matrix occurs. Is a 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos setup worth it? Become a Patron!! bit.ly/TDPatreon
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Actually, you're SLIGHTLY wrong on the way this gets folded down with Atmos. Basically, it's a range limitation based on the number of speakers you have. I'll try to explain:
First, let's compare 5.1 to 7.1 in an Atmos context, setting aside the heights for now. The Atmos decoder sees the front soundstage as 0.0 on the longitudinal, with your REARMOST speaker pair as 1.0. So with 7.1 (the ideal), your rear surrounds represent the coordinates furthest back in the room. Accordingly, static objects placed at rear surround play back in the rear surrounds, side surround position in the side surrounds, etc. Now, compare that to how it deals with 5.1. In this case, the SIDE surrounds will be the range limitation, meaning they are the "1.0" coordinate. Here's why that's important: Because of the way this works, static objects for rear surround are now played through the side surrounds. BUT... static objects for the side surrounds are now no longer played back just by the side surrounds, but instead imaged between each side surround and its adjacent main. To clarify, a left side surround object in a 5.1.x Atmos layout will be played back by both the left main and left side surround so that it images between them. This is why 5.1.x layouts tend to have the side surrounds a bit further back than where they would be in a 7.1.x layout.
Now that you've wrapped your head around that, let's consider the heights. The same range limitation issue applies. So in a bone stock x.x.4 layout, the decoder considers the front heights (whether in front height or top front position) to be the 0.0 coordinate and the rear heights (whether rear height or top rear) to be the 1.0 coordinate longitudinally. Note: This is only for objects AT THE MAX Z coordinate of 1.0. So on the Z axis, ear-level channels are 0.0 and heights are 1.0.
Now let's consider what the range is with a x.x.2 layout. Basically, as there are not two pairs of speakers for it to set this range between, any object at max Z will be played back solely by the 2 heights at top mid. It doesn't matter what their longitudinal coordinate is... The entire longitudinal range from 0.0-1.0 is represented by those two speakers AND ONLY THOSE TWO SPEAKERS when at max Z. Static objects at max Z in the top rear position will play back identically to static objects at max Z in the top front position.
So in a static 7.1.2 mix (as many are, sadly), a 5.1.2 layout will play the heights at top mid, rear surround at side surround, and side surround a bit forward of side surround by using the mains. You can confirm this using Dolby's 7.1.x test tones on a 5.1.x layout. Where things get interesting for a 5.1.2 layout is for any DYNAMIC objects below max Z. So let's say you have an object placed directly above the expected left side surround position at 0.5 on the Z axis. On a 7.1.2 setup, this would be played back half by the left side surround and half by the left top mid. On a 5.1.2 layout, however, the side surround position is represented between the physical side surround and the front soundstage... so this same object at 0.5 on the Z axis would basically be played 50% in the left top mid, about 30% in the left side surround and about 20% in the left main (because if I recall correctly, "side surround" expected position is at 0.6 longitudinally, in line with the "reference listening position" of the theatrical layout).
So the weakness of a 5.1.2 layout really only occurs with objects that are at max Z, as you will have no longitudinal movement for objects at max Z. Dynamic objects otherwise that are between 0.0 and 1.0 on the Z axis get adequate representation by steering using the adjacent channels. The side surrounds don't necessarily "do the duty of three speakers" as you're saying. But they do get used to help steer any rearward sounds that AREN'T at max Z. The mix doesn't have to be optimized between the layouts... but they do CHECK the mix on the lower speaker counts to make sure the general effect is still there and tweak object placements if needed.
What does this all mean? If you are doing a 5.1.2 layout in your room, make sure you don't put the side surrounds at the 90 degree position they would be in a 7.1.x layout. Put them at the 110-120 degree range so that the rear max range is actually behind you slightly. Then your "side surrounds" will image between the physical side surrounds and mains so that the image is closer to the 90 degree placement in a 7.1.x layout.
Ayyyyy!! Thank you for this!! I actually did send a 7.1.4 test tone through my system and changed layout in the Denon from front height to top front, top middle, etc. I actually had some VERY strange results. Can you shoot me an email, I would LOVE to talk to you - TechnoDad55 at gmail dot com
@@TechnoDad Sent you an e-mail.
M. Anderson a simple question. In a 9 channels avr, what is the best setup 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 ? Thank for follow up.
@@laurierbelanger4560 I think it's room dependent. For my money, if you can properly place the 7 bed channels, those should take priority. Most of the panned audio will be in those channels. The limitations with only having 2 height channels will only apply to maybe 10% of the mix... whereas the ear-level pans take place a lot more often.
But if you can't do the 7 beds well, there's a lot to be said for 5.1.4.
@@TheReverendSlim Thank you, the room is 12 x 20 x 7.5 H and the couch is at 10 foots . The height speakers are box speakers but bi-pole ( 2 tweeters at 90 degree and a center Klipsch RS-10). Now I will test to find the best ceiling place: In front , over or behind me. Again thank
I started with a 5.2.2 with rear height. A year later I added 2 front height and the difference was astonishingly better & I thought it sounded great before. Soon I'll be upgrading to a 7.4.4 & I can't wait!
Isn't Atmos an object based system? I understood that the mixing engineers put the objects in 3D space. They don't need too worry about the speaker setup like they did in the old days The processor decides how to interpret that for your particular speaker configuration. This whole concept of the mixing engineer "optimizing" for a particular arrangement of speakers is the old way of doing things in a channel based system. Seems like the people doing the optimizing should be the processor software engineers. Likely a combination of Dolby, DSP company, and sound united engineers.
You are correct
Exactly. The deciding on the receiver does the work, not the track that's put in the movie
I agree with Richard’s point. Mix with a joystick to place and move sound. It scales all the way from a giant theater down to a basic soundbar setup. The more speakers you have, the more accurate the placement of sound and fluidity of its movement. It’s less about absolute ‘fidelity’ and more about ‘one mix to serve them all’.
Yes and no. While Atmos is an object-based system, the way the decoder addresses the speakers in the home version is a little screwy. And this is further complicated because a lot of the time, the full Atmos mix from the theater ends up folded down to a static 7.1.2 object layout, with no dynamic objects. In these mixes, any sound that moves through the heights is basically pre-panned through the heights as virtual "channels". The issue there is that if you have a 7.1.4 layout, those virtual height channels get played back equally between the front/rear heights (or top front/rear) so that they essentially image at top mid. Worse, in a 7.1.6 layout, these static virtual "channels" only get played back by the top mid speakers... without anything in the front/rear height or top front/rear. The home decoder doesn't apply zoning to these static objects so that they play from the entire height array.
But in a fully dynamic object mix, which these demo clips are, the decoder does interpret how to play that back with your given speaker configuration. They don't have to optimize for a particular arrangement... but the person doing the home version of the mix DOES do a final check on lower speaker count systems to make sure the sound generally translates. Home mixes are done and checked, almost without exception, on a 7.1.4 layout with the heights at top front/rear. The differences that Channa is pointing out, at their core, are actually due more to the differences in physical speaker placement between a 7.1.x and 5.1.x layout. The side surrounds are not expected to be in the same location between them... but sadly, many people doing 5.1.x put them at the 90 degree position when they shouldn't.
This
When I went 5.1 to 5.1.2, it was significantly better in terms of immersive feels. I haven't tried x.x.4 before but 5.1.2, to me is definitely worth the upgrade from 5.1 if that is all you can manage
Agree with this 100%. Also the step up in price difference between a 7 channel receiver and 9 or even 11 is absurd
@@XxRyAlxXisryan yep, double or triple the price just for a slightly different overhead sound is ridiculous, especially considering most homes don't even have the proper space and acoustics to match it
I too went from 5.1 to 5.1.2 and think it's absolutely brilliant.
I'm going to try and upgrade to 5.1.4 at some stage though.
But like technodad I'm against the wall.
No, 5.1.2 is not bad. It is a big step up from 5.1 for me. As others have stated, going beyond 5.1.2 requires a more expensive receiver.
Based on the logic in this video, 5.1.4 is bad because 7.2.4 sounds better.
I have 5.1.2 too. Where did you place your heights? In 80degrees over your head on the ceiling? That's the way I do it but I consider it to try it in 30 degree like auro
As several people have pointed out, the sounds-tied-to-channel mixing doesn't apply to Atmos, as it is object based and the engineers mix using spatial placement rather than sound panning. What I'd add is this is why it is important to design your setup specific to your listening space. I have a similar space to what you described you have. I live in an apartment, which presented multiple obstacles. I have limited space, so my sofa is almost against the wall, with about 9 feet of space between the entertainment center and the sofa. I also have textured ceilings that prevent effective use of up-firing modules, and I couldn't install speakers on the ceiling or run wires in the ceiling or walls. My solution is very much like yours, I have a 5.1.4 system, with height speakers and surrounds mounted to the walls and wires ran using cable concealer tracks. When I installed my speakers, I did a LOT of testing. I tested multiple placement positions and angles before I mounted everything. It took me two weeks to decide on what sounded best. My space is far from ideal, but with my installation it sounds as good as I believe it possibly can, given my resources and space limitations. I've turned off my rear height speakers to see what it sounded like, and while it is different, it isn't a jarring difference. My surround placement is optimized more for general directional sound rather than point source, and that alleviates some of those "panning" issues you described. My advice to anyone setting up an Atmos system is research, test, and be patient. You'll find what is right for your unique space.
I've got a 5.1.2 with Polks and a Sony STRDN1080. I love it! Usually the sound just comes across blended everywhere nicely, with moments that are clearly overhead. When watching 5.1 tracks I really notice the difference as it sounds more in front of me than enveloping me. Super happy with upgrading my receiver and adding ceiling speakers.
What kind of Polk speakers do you have? I have the same receiver it's pretty good!
@@XxRyAlxXisryan Let's see... Monitor 40 for fronts, 30 for rears, CS1 center, OWM3 for ceilings, and PSW10 subwoofer.
Where did you place them ?
Top middle or as front heights ?
@@kuronekosan2830 Top middle
My favorite atmos movie is still A Quiet Place. The Atmos and LFE are off the chart 🔊🔊🔊🔊
The movie "a quiet place" has a excellent soundtrack but what about "a quiet place 2"... there's so many quiet scenes in the quiet place 2 (no punt intended 😁) that it really tests just how quiet your setup is able to sound! (or should that be lack of unwanted sound)
Tenet for the Win!
What AVR do you have and if a DENON where I turn on the LFE ? I am new in this.
@@davinladen I have an arcam avr20 and the settings are laid out differently to a Denon! So I would recommend, just go ahead and punch the CZcams search bar "Denon setup" and pay attention for sub + mains setup!
Hope this helps.
@@davinladen I have a Denon X4500H. Check out Techno Dad. He has a video i used to set mine up.
Thank you for sharing this experience. I was curious about this and you answered those questions.
Nice!
I don't have the same setup but this really helped with my 5.2.4 setup with front heights and rear heights. I've now changed the rear heights to surround rears (7.2.2) and getting a much better experience! Thank you for your content. First time listening and got some whopper advice!
Nice! Did you check out my first video in Atmos? I actually go through and demonstrate everything I spoke about in this video but in Atmos. You'll have to download the file and have a blu ray player or file player like Plex to play it - czcams.com/video/0t5sTu3DLII/video.html
Hey @@TechnoDad I actually subscribed, but there is no link for that specific Atmos Video there, only three (awesome) music videos. How can I get the link to that video you mentioned in Atmos? Thanks in advance.
@@crazydwarfer Hi! Shoot me an email - TechnoDad55 at gmail dot com
Happy new year!
Definitely noticed a difference from hen I had my 5.1.2 and switched over to 7.1.4.
It whould be awsome if on the 4k disk description it say mixed on certain amount if channels.
You should set up these height speakers to accommodate both Atmos and Aura 3D. With Aura 3D it seems (at least for now) we don't have to worry about how the sounds were engineered in that particular movie format
@@baycchief3785 my receiver doesn't support Auro3D but that will be my next step.
I recently went from 5.2.4 to 7.2.4 just before thanksgiving. I have noticed a significant difference. Movies that I thought sounded great sound significantly better. There sound that we’re going to my back that never were supposed to. I can imagine X.2.2 would have the same advantages of upgrading to X.2.4
I have noticed this as well. It also depends on what you tell your receiver you have as far as where your Atmos speakers are and even what movie you play. I have a Denon AVR 3700H running a 7.2.4. My Atmos speakers are set up to where the layout really is front ceiling speakers and rear height speakers Because of where they are located in my room. So I have two different presets for Audyssey But I have saved three different presets in the Audyssey app. One that has them set as 4 high channels. One that has them set up as 4 top/ceiling channels. And one that has them set up as 2 top/ceiling fronts And 2 rear heights. When playing my 4K disc of No Time To Die I get different sound coming out of those channels depending on which preset I use or upload. In the scene where Bond and Paloma are talking in the Spector club with on the earpieces if I run the front And rear height channels the dialogue clearly comes out of all 4 channels. But in the same scene using the preset as 4 top/ceiling channels The dialogue only comes out of the front ceiling channels and not the rear. Same thing goes for the other preset where I have Front ceiling/top and rear height. It only comes out of the front Atmos channels. This doesn’t make any sense to me that the preset with all 4 height channels actually sounds better. Some Atmos mixed movies sound better in the different presets and some sound exactly the same and it doesn’t make a difference. One would think that having them as all ceiling channels would be optimal but that’s definitely not the case. Sometimes having them is all Heights sound much better and more dynamic. It can be frustrating. I usually just leave them on the height preset as opposed to the top/ceiling preset because it seems to be more consistent. Anyone else experienced this or test this? I don’t think it has anything to do with the Denon receiver. I think it has to do with how the Atmos is mixed. Another example is the last mission impossible movie on 4K DVD. The helicopter scene towards the end. No matter which preset I use it sounds amazing with the helicopter blades going overhead etc. but it sounds the same no matter which preset I use.
Has anybody experienced what I described above? Why does it sound different depending on which position I select the Atmos speaker layout in the receiver? Keep in mind I’m not moving speakers around I’m just changing what the decoder thinks they are. That being either Heights or ceiling/top. Like I said I really notice it in that one scene in no time to die. I’m not sure why it’s doing this. Thanks
Wow. That totally makes sense. I have a 5.1.2 set up and am very dissatisfied with Dolby Atmos movies. I’m going to watch your video again and run your test as suggested.. Thank you! You rock!!
Hi Eric! There are a few factors that would cause this, not only just having a 5.1.2 setup. Most Atmos movies don’t have an active Atmos mix. Check out the 4K disc of 300 for a great Atmos mix.
Techno Dad, I discovered in a sound test with two receivers and I found that if you set the speakers to "front height" or "top front" the sound is as you said but if you set it to "top middle" the sound of the height front and height rear are heard in the "top middle" do the test.
Yes, if you have only two speaker high
Better put them in the top middle
Yes if two heights only- set them Top middlê- it turns on the sorrounds rears on to Atmös ,😁👍🔊🔉i have 5.2.2, five floors, two subs & the sorround Back rears , but on the ceiling right top of my seating position, it gives that Atmos effect.good Luck.🤗👍
Agree
This is exactly what I was thinking and experiencing when I had two heights. Keep throwing it down CD! Hope all is well. Happy new year.
Happy New Year, Matt!
You are so cool. You are so helpful and I always learn so much from you. Keep doing what you’re doing bro.
The referrence home setup for atmos is 7.1.4 when it first came out. It may have changed. While I certainly agree that a 5.1.4 will sound slightly better than a 5.1.2, you cannot leave the side surrounds at ear level with a 5.1.2. You will have to raise the surrounds slightly above your main listening postion and slightly behind to create a better transition of sound.
You said that using significantly less words than I did. LOL
I agree I’m running a 5.1.2 gonna upgrade to a 5.1.4
7.1.0, I guess, is better than 5.1.2.
Hi Channa. Greetings from Australia.🇦🇺
I'd like to say that I thoroughly enjoy your channel. 👏👏
Thanks for enlightening me on your experience with a 5.1.2 mix. Interesting. It would be nice if we could have spec specific mixes but as you mentioned it's not going to happen. 💲💲
I have 5.1.2 with ear level surrounds and Dolby spec heights, ( front speaker width just in front of MLP, ) set to top front height in my Marantz NR1711. I have been pleased with the result ie much more immersive than 5.1. but as you have mentioned in previous videos missing the movement 5.1.4 provides.
Bloody shame about the quality of many home theatre Dolby Atmos mixes. I have found using upmixers eg DTS Neural to provide a better result than poor native Doby Atmos mixes.
Thx again for you helpful and informative content.
Take care. 👍🍻
I have the denon s960h receiver with 5.1.2 set up! And I did notice the same thing but my rear channels are higher than my listening level. Because of the brackets I used to hold my monster rear klipsch speakers I had to put them slightly higher so for me it works! Eventually I will upgrade my receiver to 7.2.4 but gotta wait until I sell my house and move. I enjoy my setup now it works for my livingroom and the first time I heard this new setup it blow My mind.. so I can only imagine adding more speakers to the mix...
I just went from a 5.1.2 to 5.1.4. The difference is really amazing. I've also been mainly listening with Auro 3d (on your suggestion) and it just makes everything I watch that much better. Thanks for the tip buddy!
5.1 here .... getting close to pulling the trigger on 5.2.4. Somehow I find myself hesitating. Monitor Audio Silver all round for me, but the upgrade will be about £2000! Shall I go for it?
@@Dr9000 absolutely. I fell in love with atmos again after moving from 2 to 4 heights. The second sub will make a HUGE difference also.
@@doublet147 Thanks ... I'm going to do it!
@@Dr9000 I got monitor audio silver line also. 5.1.2 (I use the radios 90 for the heights). What you looking to get that will cost you 2 bags? I am not fully happy with how it all sounds. To get 4 height would need to upgrade my receiver and 2 more speakers and move things around. The 5 I am using silver 100, silver 50 and C350.
@@spudo133 Love my sound here. MA Silver 200s, where Bipole/Dipole Fx speakers for rears. Their new Silver Atmos speakers are £600 a pair, plus looking at another W12 for a second sub. Its an expensive hobby!
I run 5.2.2 with marrantz sr5015 , 5 elac debut reference B6 , 2 Elac debut atmos at front height, 2 Jamo 12” subs and it’s my first atmos system and I love it.. still working and tweaking.. getting some sound isolation gear next to keep improving the sound. And working on front and center pre-out amps next.
I watched your explanation of Atmos sound in different configuration and your analysis make total sense and spot on. I didn’t consider the possibility of Bad Atmos until your explanation. Thanks for sharing. With that said, you just destroyed the concept of of why the best sound bars with Atmos will not cut it for audiophiles. However, some sound are good for limited space setup.
I disagree with his analysis, I always thought that they mixed it once and then your system adjusts the mix. So it can play in stereo, 5.1, 7.1, or Atmos without you changing the settings.
Awesome video, thank you TD!! You’re the man brotha!! BOOM
I just purchased an Onkyo TX Nr 7100 and I'm going to go with a 5.1.4 height setup. I can't wait...
Great video brother, and definitely a great topic to cover.
Thanks man!!
I just have standard 5.1 at the moment, but I feel the optimal placement for 5.1.2 would be center height speakers. Having the 2 heights only in the front or rear seems like they would unbalance the sound field like you describe in the video at 7:30
ive got it at the front, its the same feels as visual tallnes of Imax, sound just feels larger space wise. It pans better with effects from the floors to the heights too.
I started with 2 heights in the middle (5.1.2). It sounded great. But when I added front heights, it became amazing.
I have my .2 inceiling speakers about 3 to 4 ft Infront of my seated area. And they sound awesome
So question, you say ear level, I was being told today that rear or side surrounds should be 2 to 3ft above your ears ? What's your thoughts ?
@@briantidey2225 i wouldnt really go more than 2 feet as it may feel like they are too high. but you can always test with a sturdy tripod/or boxes, or humans haha. close your eyes and play some pink noise on the surrounds and test at the different levels; Once while all channels are playing and again with just the rears playing. Will tell you how high they can get before feeling unnatural.
Wow TD, this is a great addition to your videos... all new info that we never really considered or think about when we judge how the sound is distributed in certain movies.
But now, I totally understand why my side surrounds are so active in my 5.1.2 set-up (.2 as front heights). Because they are receiving so much information to deliver, meaning sound going towards the back or up above Atmos-wise, and what their supposed to be doing themselves!. I have my surrounds placed off to the side like yourself, because no placement possibility behind me. My side surrounds seem more active than my front L & R in some movies, but now I understand why.
Thanks again for sharing this incite, none of your good CZcams colleagues ever touched this subject so far. Good job!
Hi Perry! What you are describing makes so much sense. Thank you for sharing and for watching!
Interesting video...as for myself, my system consists of a 7.1 processor feeding 2 receivers(the front receiver is a standard Pioneer 2 channel model, the back is a Yamaha 5.1 model)both with A and B speakers, so, using both sets of available speaker outputs, I have both low and high speakers(since I don't use a powered subwoofer, or a front center channel,I do use a rear center, though, I guess I have a 4.5 set-up?), front and back. I've been using this set-up since before the days of "Phantom Menace", when 6.1 was the new thing and have been impressed with how much more immersive soundtracks are(I have friends that, to this day, still tell me that my system sounds as good or better than theater set-ups). The reason I mention this is because of the example of the jets that was used. I have found that most surround effects are height oriented and the back high speakers replicate this flawlessly, and when the odd "low" effect is employed, the bottom surrounds will highlight the effect. The reason for my comment? I guess it's just to say that you don't necessarily need to spend a lot of cash to have an awe-inspiring set-up, a little ingenuity can go a long way...
I'm rocking 7.2.2. LCR then 4 Klipsch surround speakers. the RP 502s as my side and rear speakers. then i have 2 RP 500SA Elevation speakers. next I'm getting the SPL 150 (15 INCH) SUBS the thing i love about PETER JACKSON is he is involved with every aspect of his movies from cameras to CGI to prosthetics to sound i mean everything.
Cool video man! In my tv room I have a 5.1.2 setup. My Pioneer Elite AVR is 9 channel. I am going to add rear heights and check it out! I have 300 and Midway on 4K disc. Let the games begin!
Wow I really loved your explanation, I never thought about it, awesome content subscribed
Thank you so much, Mario! Welcome. There are a few more videos. Did you download the Atmos file? Here are some of my music mixes in MP4 - technodad.biz/TDAtmosMP4
@TechnoDad I will do, thanks for your informative take on this topic, I know very little of atmos technology but recently bought a surround sound system and wanted to know more about it.
Heyy Happy new year, best wishes for you. Always vary interesting and amazing videos, one question I know you are the right person to answer. I have a Denon 3700 and I have 7.2.4 is there any way to put 6 high channels with this receiver?
I’ve been running 5.2.4 for going on 7 years now and it works great
Awesome!!
I have a 5.1 setup and my Yamaha RX-A870 AVR does virtual surround backs using the surround speakers via DSP, it does a great job.
That's pretty cool!
I have a 5.1.2 setup with the atmos speakers only in the rear. I don't know if that is supposed to be terrible, but I think it still sounds great. Better then my old 5.1.0, it has a lot more seperation.
Your setup is not necessarily going to sound bad. I believe it would be better than a standard 5.1. We all have to make concessions when setting up a home theater in a living room like my setup. If you can add some front heights in the future, I would definitely recommend it. And if you do, movies like 300 on 4K disc are going to sound spectacular!
7.1.2 I’ve added Dolby atmos speakers and I notice a big difference from the sound bar I had before. I now have 2 bookshelf front speakers 2 Atmos . Center channel and 2 rear surround speakers and subwoofer.
Awesome, Craig!
Great discussion and information. I went from 7.1 to 5.1.4 (I added two front height speakers plus surround back) but I have ended up (for now) with a 7.1.2 which in my room seems to sounds best. That's based on my Denon x4700h audyssy setup doing its thing. I guess there is some trial and error involved.
Hi Bill! It’s always a tricky thing. I felt like 5.1.2 was as high as I could go until those SVS Elevation Speakers were produced. Once that happened, I had more options for mounting rear heights. Maybe you just need the right speaker for the right implementation? It could just take some time.
I started with 5.1.2 with middle height in ceiling speakers with rear surround in walls & thought that was great. When added the svs front heights it got amazing. It could be a room issue (acoustics) or different speakers. I'm not going to say avr because I have the same. Lol
7.1.2 is what I’m looking at currently as part of my upgrades. Partly because of the tiered seating, my surround rears inherently are fairly high up from MLP. So will add some front heights and see how it goes.
This was good information. I'm just getting into surround so this was helpful.
You’re very welcome! Thanks for watching!
Thank you for posting this video. I have noticed the same thing on my 7.1.2 system. Initially, I thought it was an issue on my system.
Right on! I bet it must have been confusing.
highly interesting soon to have a 5.1.2 atmos we ll see clearly explained great job
Quite an interesting topic Chana.. No one has ever done such a video.. 👍
Thank you for watching!
Chana, u make me feel like I am wasting money.... Perhaps I should just buy books and e-books and read more. The 'cinematic' feel in my head is always like pure gold... happy new year!
Lol! I hope not! It’s a funny thing, this hobby. It’s almost never ending with the products, movies, calibration. There’s a lot to deal with for sure. I, of course, don’t think it’s a waste of money, more an investment in entertainment.
Good video content. You are right, not all movies sound the same because the sound is not mixed the same way. My set up is 7.2.2. I will be add two more height speakers soon. I think adding those two speakers will give a good compromise to most movies with atmos.
Nice Fern! You're going to love the upgrade.
Hey Channa D nice to see you put out a awesome video again. Happy New Year brotha.
Thank you, Michael. Happy New Year!
@@TechnoDad no prob hope this year is good for you and your channels.
Waited for the extra power. Use my Denon AVR X6500 to power up 11 channels at first, which includes 2 front channel Cerwin Vega VE15 towers, 2 SVS PB2000-500 watts subs, 4 Cerwin Vega SL5M surrounds, 1-Cerwin Vega SL45C center, 4-8 inch two way Polk Audio used for Dolby Atmos ceiling mounted speakers, then two years late bought the QSC RMX1450A 300 watts/2 channels @ 8 ohms amplifier. The QSC really made the system sound four times better.
Great video as always and made me think. I have a strange shaped room with a server room in one half of the back of the room. I have 2 rows of seats and half of the 2nd row is up against a wall but the other half has space behind it to the rear wall. As a result I installed a 5.2.4 system with my sides level with the 2nd row of seats. So I don't have an issue with the overhead effects but wondered how much I am potentially missing or how different the sound is without rears and the sound going to the sides. I have 2 questions - just checking the configuration I should be using for my Denon 3500H? Do you think I would benefit from adding a single rear speaker roughly in the middle of the room for rear effects? With the unusual layout I have I can't really put 2 rear speakers as only have half a wall. If so what settings should I use on my Denon and would it even work with effectively a 6.2.4 system?
Your channel is bad ass ! Keep cranking them out please
Thank you for watching!
Great point! - You can't put sound where there aren't any speakers (the missing rears and overheads).
But... you can go slightly out of the traditional soundstage - Remember when Madonna recorded in Q-Sound?
Traditional stereo speakers appeared to have sound wider than the stereo speakers (by playing with phase and adding out-of-phase left to the right and out-of-phase right to the left).
A nifty trick from the 1990's, and probably what Atmos is based on, just way more complicated, with a ton more channels. :)
As usual Techno Dad is on his game. Thanks Technodad!!
Thanks!
Hey Techno Dad. Happy Holidays to you! For now instead of doing the 5.1.2 can you use those two speakers to set up the height for Center Height Channel and the Voice of God speaker? I think with this option it will emphasize the diaglog center channel. The other front height and back height speakers can be added later - BTW, this setup is for Auro 3D but with the main ear level center, mid center height and the voice of god center. Thank you
This is very informative and well explained, thank you! So my concern is with all of these decoding ATMOS, Auro 3D etc. it sounds like the goal is get more sounds for the height and surround etc. in this case Auro 3D setup. If that is the case, why wouldn't you be able to just replicate the audio signals to wherever you needed and amplifing them? For instance, i have a center chanel, i can duplicate that channel and put another center channel say to ceiling - that way when the dialog is spoken, you get the effects of the ear level center + the top ceiling like the VOG. This same design concept can be replicated for the rears/surrounds as well as it seems like the goal is for folks to hear more sounds and everywhere.
My goal is to get a 7.1.4 setup. I have just a 5.1 setup and I feel like there are massive holes in my sound. One day. One day. Happy New Year!
If you have the space get the matching sub. Huge difference when I went from one to two subs. 7.2.4, next is move hopefully buy summer is 7.4.4. Good luck.
@@pete3882 I'm living with my parents until this housing market crashes unfortunately. 😑 hopefully everything works out with your as well
I’d be happy to get that right side speaker working again, I dream ln stereo
Great video mate. The dolby atmos experience has great potential, but it's still a mixed bag. I want to say, I totally agree with your points. I've spent the past two weeks testing/optimizing my Vizio Elevate. Coming from a 5.1.2 system you can definitely feel and hear the difference. Position is the key, if you don't have optimal placement for your speakers relative to your listening Position, you are still missing effects, even on a 5.2.4.
Thank you for watching, and thanks for sharing your experience. How do you like the Elevate?
Great video TD, Im still on a 5.1.2 setup but my surrounds are quad polar Axiom QS8s mounted high on wall so the panning effects still seem to work due to mid drivers reflecting off ceiling and pointing down creating a very non directional effect. I'm still curious if adding two more atmos would improve this further though...or actually make things worse due to not having that much room behind listening position.
That’s very interesting, Sam!! Tough call, though. I wouldn’t know for sure and you would either, unless you tried it. How high in wall are they?
@@TechnoDad yeah for sure I have them mounted a couple of feet above ear level, and to the left and right of MLP. I don't really want them lower for several practicality reasons, I do have some nice inwalls that could replace them lower, and add two more rear atmos, but its a major re-jig requiring cutting wallboard of course, might just have to try it and see... Damn this addiction!
Channa, Another issue is the Dolby Surround Upmixer firmware in each brand and series of AVR or processor. Surely they are all different. My thought of Atmos mixing is that there should be only one spacial dome for "audio objects" and the "audio objects" simply move to where the mixing engineer sent them. If you don't have those speakers - well you are just SOL in hearing those sounds and their placements, leaving "holes" in the playback. Since the AVR firmware AI adjusts the sounds and their placement to "it's liking" it is very unlikely that any AVR or processor will accurately place those sounds where the engineer put them no matter what your X.Y.Z set-up/format is. It would be interesting to find out which AVR/processor actually reproduces the audio only as recorded/placed by the engineer. Just my $0.02. Take care and I hope you have a great 2022!
I've been revamping my home theater and the discussion with the wife has begun about replacing our receiver. Currently I'm running 7.1 and I'm decently happy with it, but I'm super curious about what atmos can bring to the table. Would you suggest a 5.1.4 setup over a 7.1.2? I've got a basic 8ft ceiling so I'll probably be using a "bounce" speaker setup....just really don't want to open the can of worms with drywall work.
I'm still stuck at 5.1 lol...
Why I'm watching videos like this one before I upgrade. Thanks for the vid.
Gotcha! Well, Atmos is not necessarily a bad thing, it’s good to go into it with the right expectations.
I have 5.1.2 and i see your point. Because i'm starter on atmos.
Very helpfull video! Thanx!!
You're welcome!
I've got a 5.1.2 and even though I don't have rear highs I hear things that should be in the rear high channels and it sounds higher than the speakers themselves so the effect works. I also hear things pan through the rear as it would with 7 channels. I really think it depends on what speakers you have. If you can localize your speakers than it's going to sound disconnected.
I hear you, Holden. Great points!
I also have a basic starter set up with 5.1.2 with front heights and it does wonders. Granted I am using all paradigm speakers and they sound superb without the atmos. Denon receiver with paradigm speakers are glorious!
My friend started to tear up when he heard a few movies turned up loud! He said" I can't believe I'm crying" lol
Thanks also to my Sony x930e !
Awesome. Thats how a proper object-based audio is supposed to work. It needs to know the space from where the audio is coming from, not from which speaker. I believe not only the speakers matter, but also the processor on your receiver and possibly room calibration too.
@@imraneo yeah. I'm running a Marantz sr7013 with internal amps removed because I had an accident. Lol 4 Crown xls 1502 amps and Jbl 5 series speakers which are basically modeled after cinema speakers. Jbl arena 120s as front highs and dual SVS PB2000 pros and a miniDSP.
I finally got rid of my 12 years old 7.1 setup. I recently bought Marantz Cinema 50 and rocking 7.2.4 what a difference. 👍
Happy new year mate! I'm running 5.1.2 with in-ceiling Klipsch speakers. I wish i could do 4 heights but i haven't passed more cables in my ceiling 😭 Maybe when i decide to paint my living room i'll route cables for 2 more!
Great video. First time Ive seen one of yours. Subbed and liked.
You explain things really well and it all seems to make sense.
I have a odd setup wherein its a 6.1.2 using a soundbar with a sub and rear surrounds. Go figure. I realise its never going to be as good as a proper system with seperate speakers but for the room its in it fits well and sounds pretty good and thats having previously had a Dolby Digital 5.1 setup with seperates.
Thank you Chris! Welcome to the channel, I got tons of videos, like over 600 or something. Lol! Anyway, if you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
@@TechnoDad Thanks for the welcome.
Im currently working my way through some of your vids. Im a techno geek so love all this sort of content. Im sure I will have plenty of questions thank you
Channa..great video. If you have less surround/height channels than the original mix, then the pre/pro/avr downmixes all channels into your setup channels. This can easily sound 3 dimensional. Just like a true stereo perspective, where you cant really tell where the sound is coming from. Ie, A singer is infront of you, but there is no speaker infront of you.
Of course the sound placement maybe different with less speakers, but if done well on a good system, it can be quite close to what the sound engineer intended. Happy new year.👍
Woot woot!
Happy new year's dad!
Yeah my rear surrounds process a lot of sound. Only have two heights up front. Luckily my rear surrounds are higher than they should be so is somewhat okay.
Hey Techno Dad since your back wall is right at your seating postion try placing your rear L&R speakers flush against the wall and pointed at the ceiling. you might find that you dont need the over head rear speakers. just remember to adjust the settings and add some dbs to the rear to match the dbs of the fronts if not a little louder.
Hi Dan! Thanks for the tip. The issue is I can’t put surround speakers behind me and the AVR does not know that they are to my sides. It think they are behind me, so it will place side surround material and surround back material to my one pair of surrounds. This is the real limitation and issue with object based surround in this specific scenario.
Good stuff bro
Thanks man!
Currently rocking a 22.6.8. 👍🏿
I'm just going to the Sony A9 system.
Got an old 5.1 system for 20 years in which the rears died recently.
I was looking at all these options to replace the rears.
Wife said she wants something that looks neater and simpler.
So I'm getting the A9 system whenever it's back in stock in Australia.
Told me April.
Nice man!
Happy New Year, Channa! I remember your 5.1.2 setup.
Seems to me if you are limited with your speakers the sound has to go somewhere, right? I'm not surprised by this.
Ayyyy! Happy New Year Cruzan!!
Great video. This makes me think if my set up is wrong. Should my front dolby atmos speakers (they are built into my towers) be plugged into surround or surround back?
Have 5.1.4. setup nowhere near perfect bcs my room layout is crazy. But still enjoying it alot :D
Gotta ask where you got that shirt? Its amazing
Love the shirt Techno 🔥🔥🔥
This sounds crazy but hear me out ... my theatre room is like your living room setup where the couch is against the rear wall so I have 5.2.4. My rear Atmos speakers were originally intended as Rear Heights and thus are mounted in that position, where the wall meets the ceiling. However I recently set them to instead be Top Center (since the MLP is within the recommended mounting angle for Top Center) and there is a noticeable difference in effect. Thats Front Height/Top Center configuration on my Denon X3600H. Prior I had Front Height/Rear Height and Atmos was OK, but this new configuration blows it away in both immersion and activity. Try it out!
I’ll check that out! I know for sure the surround back info in going to your side surrounds and that’s because the AVR will not know where the speakers are located. It thinks your surround speakers are behind you. I’ll be making a follow up video to illustrate this.
I’ve spent so much money on my current setup, I don’t plan on upgrading for a while. I’m currently using a 5.2.2 set up.
Yeah, I know the feeling!
I have a 5.1.2 set-up with 2 rear height channels. It offers a great experience, but based on pitched, vaulted ceilings, I am not sure how I can make front heights work. I have reached out to the vendor who installed my Anthem/GoldenEar home theater for recommendations.
Rocking 7.1.4, wired for 7.1.6 (speakers installed). I’m waiting to see the next generation of AVR’s. Currently have a Denon 6200 which does the job. To go to .6 I would want to go with a separate amplifier for the six Atmos speakers. Reports of the middle height channel being bypassed concerns me too. Waiting is okay with me. 👍🏾
Hello BG! I totally get it. Funny thing is that in a 13 channel setup with 6 height channels, the front heights are height 1, the middle heights are height 2, and the rear heights are height 3. But in an 11 channel setup with 4 height channels, you have front as height 1 and rear as height 2. So when you add your third row of height channels, make sure to re-wire or change the wiring around at the AVR.
Noted. 👍🏾
The problem you're going to have is that a LOT of Atmos mixes use a static 7.1.2 object placement rather than dynamic objects. With a 7.1.4 setup, this works fine... because the 2 static height objects image between your top front/rear speakers equally. But in a 7.1.6 layout, these static height objects will ONLY be played back by the top mid speakers.
In a fully dynamic mix with moving objects throughout, you will get a bit better spatial resolution with motion through a 7.1.6 layout... but with the limitation I mentioned previously, I've recommended that most people stick to 4 heights. Just something to be aware of for the future. You'll improve things for dynamic mixes like Midway which will use every speaker you have... but 7.1.2 static mixes like Ready Player One will just not use 4 of the height speakers at all.
Hey TD, hope and you and yours are good. Yo, this video is very insightful and straight up brilliant. I actually don't have atmos yet, but I will be very mindful of this kind of stuff when we get to have an atmos setup. In short, you just made my future setup better.
My rears are at the sides 2ft above My head. Sound really good.
I had a Denon AVR 3700H amp with Atmos 7.14 but I noticed that the sound was somewhat agressive in the Atmos mix so I changed it to Marantz SR7015 Atmos 7.14 the sound is so much smoother I can now watch films but listening to Atmos and other surround mixes in music allows me to get the best of both worlds.
I’ve had both of those AVRs and I felt like they sounded the same to me, but then again, I’m using external amplifiers.
The denon x3700h is one of the best performing avrs avaible and beats marntz even there pre/pros like the giy said below maybe you just needed more power. I have denon with emotiva xpa 3 gen 3 so ample power throughout and sounds fantastic.
@@arranstokes4080 I hava a separate amp on my front speakers only but for me certainly when listening to Atmos music which I do a lot the Marantz is less harsh in tone. Its likely my personal preference.
I have a 5.2.4 its all about what your av receiver does when you calibrate the sound. When you add more speakers calibrate it again and it sounds the way it should, no matter the number of speakers you have, since atmos deals with 3d space. I hear things in movies with atmos, that come from a place in the room where i dont even have speakers because atmos is working the way its supposed to....once you use your dirac, odyssey or whatever your receiver has. Works beyond perfect for me and I havent had any issues.
I went from 5.1.2 with front height, to 5.1.2 with rear heights, and I would say that rear heights is way better. I think that would be more optimal, because its only merging height fronts and fronts, instead of surround, surround rear and rear heights.
You should try with rear heights only, also the sound stage, would in a smaler setup be bigger without heights in the front, due to bigger front speakers, i think.
Thanks for the tip, I’ll check it out!
Im currently running a 5.2.2 and I agree with you I am missing alot, definitely missing alot of info with just 2 atmos speakers.
If you can, upgrade. It might take some time. Here's my video about going from 2 to 4 height channels - czcams.com/video/iBDtYADLBTA/video.html
@@TechnoDad good looking out brother.
So glad I have a 5.1.4 set up, don't have the space for 7 ear level speakers. All Kef baby!!
Nice Bearly Camping!
In my humble experience I noticed major differences in sound when going from using book shelf speakers as rears to specifically designed and dedicated rear speakers , I also noticed a huge difference when using actual in ceiling speakers instead of ceiling mounted book shelf speakers but more than anything adding an extra subwoofer really improved the sound affects as well in the room .
My basic advice would be to use a speaker system designed to be used as a system - I use a monitor audio full system in 5.2.2 configuration using full in-ceiling 8” 280 idc units with the height channels set as per the manufacturers guidelines for height and distance and the package is phenomenal for both music and film . I would say I’m often disappointed with some atmos tracks on dvds and do feel it appears atmos isn’t being supported by companies as much as it should . Possibly because atmos isn’t being used as much in homes as predicted.
Can you elaborate on the rear speaker part? Do you mean going from bookshelves to bipol speakers? Or just bookshelf speakers designed as surrounds?
@@XxRyAlxXisryan I had book shelf speakers originally as rears then when I upgraded my entire system I brought a full set of Monitor Audio speakers - the rears are now bi pol speakers with one cone and two tweeters in each rear - called fx speakers - my two in ceiling speakers are kinda the same set up ct280 idc - I’m using a Sony str1080dn receiver with two subwoofers as well .
The monitor Audio bronze and silver series speakers are phenomenal value and universally applauded- check them out .
Which model of Monitor Audio speakers are you using?
@@immortanjoe6432 hi I currently have two bronze 6 floor standers , one bronze centre channel , 2 bronze fx tri pole speakers behind my sofa , two w10 monitor audio subwoofers , two monitor audio 280 idc in ceiling speakers . Previous I used Samsung and then later q acoustic book shelf as rears .
Biggest impacts on sounds improvements for me was - better centre channel , better rear speakers and adding second subwoofer.
However height channels make the biggest single difference to overall impact if upgrading to atmos .
if you do not have a dedicated room set up for HT, the secret is to use omnidirectional speakers for front and rear, then tone match a center or get a center you like, throw in 2 subs for even bass and call it a day.
point is not be able to pick out your speaker when you hear a sound. its about being able to hear the sound between 2 speakers.
I have got Mirage omd speakers and the sound field is really good. Two subs, front height channels. I just got an avr that can do 2 additional channels becaue of the back issue that Chana is brining up.
Hey Techno Dad I have a question for you regarding my setup.
I have not invested into a newer atmos receiver just yet; and may not until the end of 2022. I currently have a Sony 5800es. The receiver supports (front height speakers) and up to 9.2 channels, so because of that I’m running a 5.2.(2).
As soon as I added the front height speakers the movies became a much better experience for my setup.
I also recently bought a new center channel. So then I figured let me see how things sound if I set the old center channel behind the couch and have it up fire to my low 7’ ceilings. The receiver does support 6.1; that’s why I tried it. After performing the room calibration I couldn’t believe how much more distinguished the rear side surrounds opened up the surround sound experience.
So my question is at this point, not having an atmos receiver currently. Should I go from 5.2.2 to 7.2.2 or go 5.2.4 and just prep for the atmos?
Like I had mentioned my ceilings are 7’ in the basement. The room behind the couch is 1-2’ from the wall. I worry that doing a 7.2.4 the rears and the additional atmos will not separate and just be cluttered since it’s a small area behind the couch.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thank you.
i found a set of the Klipsch , the small ones with the sub! since they allready have a knuckle on them, i just use them too do my atmos! works pretty good, i have them hooked up to a older model Harmon Kardon 5 channel for my power amp rate 100 watts a channel! i use a outlaw 7 channel to power my bottom layer, its the 200 watt job !
How do you create atmos with two receivers with one source (4k bluray player), and does it sound as good as a dedicated atmos receiver?
Very good video. My comprehension of what you say is, correct me if I'm wrong, : In a 9 channels system, a 7.2.2 will reproduce a better mix than a 5.2.4 ? Because the base layer is 7.1 plus atmos.
Sort of. What I’m getting at is if the Atmos mixing engineer has an 11 channel setup he’s mixing on, you won’t hear everything “correctly” if you’re playback system is smaller, like a 7 or 9 channel setup.
@@TechnoDad I love most of your videos - but, I have to kinda smack this video down a little. First, you cannot, EVER, get a great surround setup if your couch is butted up to the rear wall. It's just not possible. (In a 5.1 setup, the surrounds should be placed 110 to 135 degrees front the center (or if you're facing left or right, 20 to 45 degrees behind you - with 45 degrees really being the best). You can't do that if the couch is right there. Second, the ceiling speakers you used in this scenario were still far in front of you, instead of being placed left and right of your listening position as a .2 setup says they should be placed. I think if you turned off your front ceiling speakers and listened to the rear ones instead, that at least would be closer to the specifications Dolby has for a 5.2 setup and would provide a more accurate portrayal of what Atmos does in a .2 setup. (The rear wall reflection won't be great, but the first reflection point should go right over your head so that's at least a plus there.)
I respectfully think that your conclusions in this video are off a bit. I think you ran into issues with the Atmos mix because of the limitations of your room and the speaker placement within that room, rather than because of the limitations of Atmos. And, I think if you redo this test, in a room setup with Dolby's recommended speaker placement, and went from 7.1.2 to 7.1.4, or a correctly setup 5.1.2 to a 5.1.4 setup, the differences wouldn't be as obvious to you and a great case could be made that a .2, correctly placed, is better than nothing there at all and can still be pretty good.
I'd love to hear your thoughts - happy new year - and even though I kind of poo-poo on this video, please keep them coming because you really do put out a lot of great content that I appreciate.
I'm initially inclined to agree with the tech portion of this - I have a 5.1.2 soundbar that has a sub without rear speakers. I have the paid Atmos via Windows 10 and have run the Atmos 7.1.4 test supplied via the Dolby Access app. My concern is the rear surrounds sound like they're being fed through the front speakers and side surround speakers with a preference towards the front - if that's the way the bar interprets an Atmos 7.1.4 mix, the rear mix is way in the wrong place. My AV room is a flat room that allows for at least some bounce. The height channels are all mixed into two points with a preference for the rear which matches the angle of the top speakers.
I agree having 4 height channels is the best vs 2. But the fact the rear height channels get played on the rear speakers is completely expected… like imagine you had no height effects, all the sounds would be played on the base 5.1 or 7.1 layer. It’s not like the sounds are just going to vanish because you don’t have the height channels…
Woot woot! Exactly right, the sound doesn’t vanish.
I apologize if you’ve already answered this question, where do you get your Atmos demo discs? Or what continent do you use to demo Atmos? Thank you!
Had same experience with klipsch toppers and mounted mine like yours.
In terms of the dome feeling of heights panning into surrounds, placing the surrounds a feet or two higher aimed down above your head helps with this as well as multiple seating positions (a head blocking your ear during a movie)
This is what I did and sounds awesome
Actually (and I'm about to give you more info than you need), elevating the surrounds to clear seatbacks, multiple rows, etc. changes the position that Dolby expects you to put the heights. Dolby's generalized home guidelines don't address this at all, being oriented toward a simplistic approach for the average consumer. But if you look at their theatrical and mix room certification guidelines, the formula is 45 degrees of angular separation plus half the elevation of the surrounds. So if you put your side surrounds 10 degrees above ear level, the height rows (whether 2, 4 or 6 speakers) would be placed 50 degrees off ear level laterally. Likewise, if your rear surrounds are placed at the max elevation of 20 degrees above ear level (like in a multiple row situation), your top rears would come forward a bit from the 135 degree ideal to 125.
That "dome feeling" is maintained by keeping proper angular separation between the adjacent speaker pairs.
@@TheReverendSlim yeah, you are correct in this, it's axis and angles as the true measurement but subjectivity and the room will always dominate. The best we can do with our rooms is all we should do. If it works it works
@@TheReverendSlim something I rarely see in home theater measurements is off axis response for speakers. I went with all Elac debut reference matched system and the off axis response at 90 degrees is less than 5 db… in extremes absolute floor to overhead ceiling positioning obviously you can hear a difference. But moving them a few feet up on the wall gives very little difference for my setup.
@@JBSCHAFFNER Oh, you definitely have to consider the off-axis response, which is why I tend to recommend using aimable speakers if at all possible for heights. I have 4 SVS Prime Elevations on my ceiling at 45 and 130 degrees (rears a bit closer than the "ideal" due to slightly elevated rear surrounds) and my one complaint is that with their 20 degree baffle angle, you have to work around their off-axis response... which isn't awful, but does present with a bit of a dip in the crossover region between the speaker's tweeter and mid. I wish SVS had gone with a 30 degree angle for their baffle, which would have been better for front/rear height and put things less off-axis for on-ceiling use.
The flip side of this is that if a speaker has too good a dispersion pattern, you're definitely going to want to treat the reflection points... whereas with a more focused directional speaker, you may not need to do as much work there.
How well speakers sounstage, and room acoustics/ shape, makes as big a diferenc in the emersive experience as the number of speakers does. This is one reason we will see varying opinions on the subject.
I have dipole speakers as my side surrounds and I guess I’m getting a bit of the best of both worlds, though I understand that dipole speakers are not considered suitable for ATMOS. I just happened to have them from my old non-ATMOS setup. I would like to install some rear height channels, but I don’t want to run the wires.
Definitely noticed what you mean when i was watching stars wars 4k blu rays the height sound came from my back surrounds in my 7.2.2 setup
Yup!
I have a speaker setup for 7.2.4 however my yamaha 2080 only processes 9 channels so I had to choose to either fire up rear heights or rear surrounds. Until I get new receiver I have chosen rear surrounds over rear heights. Switching back and forth rear surrounds seem to have a lot more going on than rear heights. Someday all 11 will be fired up when I make up my mind which 11 channel processing receiver to buy.