Dolby was wrong! Place your Atmos speakers here instead, Performance over Aesthetics
Vložit
- čas přidán 1. 04. 2024
- Set Reminder for ATMOS MIXING NIGHT - czcams.com/users/live6u6nUPADeo0 - How do you want your Dolby Atmos Home Theater? Sonically accurate or visually appealing? Download the file to try it yourself - technodad.biz/DAHeight - Purchase your Spatial Audio Calibration Toolkit today - technodad.biz/SPATIAL
New Merch Shop - technodad.biz/NewMerchShop
Become a Patron - bit.ly/TDPatreon
Sign up for our Newsletter - technodad.biz/AtmosDL
*My DJ Gear*
Denon DJ SC6000 Media Player - amzn.to/3TnOCAg
Pioneer DJ XDJ-XZ - amzn.to/3wQH2oF
Pioneer DJ Mixer - amzn.to/3v1vhef
Pioneer DJ Headphones - amzn.to/3RLlFgI
DISCLAIMER: This video and description contain affiliate links. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.
Equipment used to film & edit:
Sony FX3 - amzn.to/3dOyUZR
Sony 25mm F1.4 GM - amzn.to/3xjrplo
Sony 35mm F1.4 GM - amzn.to/3gDFft4
Lens I want to try - Sony 50mm F1.2 GM - amzn.to/3dOvd6D
Atamox Ninja V 5" HDR Monitor - amzn.to/3dNRMYY
Rode NTG-2 Shotgun Microphone - amzn.to/3dQowRa
Sachtler Flowtech 75 Tripod Legs: amzn.to/2KSyqDI
Manfrotto 504HD Video Head: amzn.to/320tzFU
Amaran 60x: amzn.to/3TagJzO
Thank you for watching!
Don't forget to like and subscribe!
Facebook: bit.ly/TD5FBP
Twitter: bit.ly/TD5TWTR
Instagram: technodad.biz/TDIG
Spotify: bit.ly/CDS29YrsS
Soundcloud: bit.ly/DJCDSSC55
Techno Dad Audio Demo Tracks - Tidal: bit.ly/2IxZzKO
Techno Dad Audio Demo Tracks - Spotify: spoti.fi/2Rnv4dv - Věda a technologie
I have cut out 12 holes in my ceiling. I went from 2 speakers at 0°. Then 4 at +55° and -55°. Then 6 at +55°, 0°, -55° . (Based on recommendations from respected people on CZcams, Audioholics, Anthony Gremani , Home Theatre gurus etc.) Then I watched Techno Dad's atmos renderer videos. Which threw a spanner in the works.
So, I decided to make six extra holes that are in line with the bed layer. Lots of moving speakers, and crawling around the loft, and recalibration, and listening, and moving speakers, and crawling around the loft, and listening, and recalibration... on and on it went.
But..... I think Channa is right. So thanks, Techno Dad, many more man hours later, it sounds right. Guess it's time to start filling in those original holes.🙄
Wow! That's a lot of work...I applaud you for taking the time and energy to experiment and go with a setup based on what you have found to be the best setup. I'm glad I could help...I can't help you fill those holes though...
@@TechnoDad you probably could. But I don't want to find out what your day rate is!
@@Britishbandogge overhead drywall patching and skim coating is a young man’s game; I’m now at 72, so anything under 50 qualifies. 🤭
@@fonkenful I'm 37, so I have no excuse! But it's done now. (I'm glad I had the foresight to keep and label the drywall cutouts). There is now no evidence of the carnage that had taken place previously in that room. I guess it's a bit like a serial killer selling an apartment...
@@Britishbandogge Dexter Gordon and the art of home theatre install. 😵💫
The come closer "I don’t care" was personal 😂😂
HAHAHA!
@@TechnoDadcould even have some salty slang in there - it took me a long time to realize that “…at a rolling donut” was just a euphemism.
lol channeling your inner fresh hater jay there
@@angelajudetv Yup!
I had a friend telling me about this concept while I was upgrading from a .2 overhead to a .4 and I thought it was very interesting. I then found your channel and downloaded your test video that had sounds going straight up and down from the base speakers and it clicked for me. I know have all four overhead speakers directly above the front and surround speakers and it sounds fantastic. Thanks for pushing this topic, it makes perfect sense. Now I have to redo my living room....half the fun right? Right guys?
I settled for a soundbar sub, and rear speakers 5.1.(2) set up for my lounge, because I only use Blu-ray, and have noticed most of them carry dts X as their only audio source. I'm not going to go with 4k discs, so this fits my audio needs while being aesthetically smaller than a full system. The dts sound fills the room better than the few Atmos discs I have. And as usual, I am the only one in the house that pores over these decisions. The .2 is in brackets because the q600b upfiring are half the power of the mains, and bring some atmosphere, but not height.
I completely understand your reasoning here. You have to do what's right for your room.
A reminder has been set ☺- You can do both by integrating design features so that they aid the sound and video, items in the room remain functional and also look nice and not like you are in a black coffin. I am glad you brought this subject up. Using common can get you results that deliver both, but of course if common sense was a currency we would all be rich. Love this video 👌
Its important to go through this thought process and fully understand what it is you are trying to accomplish before starting any kind of construction.
I think the issue here is that people started building home theaters to include Atmos before we had all the information at hand. The first few years of Atmos installation was all basically beta-testing and experimemtation. The price of being an early adopter.
Very interesting and makes total sense. I have a 7.1.4 system in my living room, so full of compromises. I had to go for in ceiling speakers for my hight channels so need to bring them in closer to be able to get the best out of them. I’m assuming that if you are advocating putting speakers in the corners, it would be better to use bookshelf sized speakers angled to the listener?
would only seem sensible so ..what a waste of money i did ...is it time for some bigger speakers ?
Yes, Curtis, I would use a bookshelf speaker mounted high up on the front and rear wall.
Should you place them directly above front rear speakers - ceiling mount if necessary?
Dude, I had this same conversation talking to a buddy of mine when listening to demos. He wants me to set up his system and I was telling him why I recommend having the atmos speakers match the positions of the bed layer. He kept going back to the dolby charts and I kept explaining why the bed layer is so good at placing sound in the room and why having the top layer match that exactly would be best. Glad I'm not the only one that noticed this. Awesome video and keep up the good work man!
Ayyy! This is what I've known for the past year and I have been waiting to make this video. I'm so glad I did. Thank you for sharing!
@@TechnoDad I wish you would have made this last year as now I have already drilled the holes and installed the speakers! What is your take on position of front left and right speakers? How far from the front wall should they be? Some people recommend 4 feet from the front wall, but that looks pretty funky, but it would be directly under my atmos speakers at that point. Should I move the fronts out 4 feet or cut new holes and move the atmos speakers?
Finally!! I've been waiting for a video like this forever. Amazingly simple and logical topic. Thanks, Channa! 🍻
Thank you! I've been "trying" to make this for a year now...I guess it was the right time...
@@TechnoDad - Absolutely! Thank you, sir! 🍻
I agree. This is the best video you've made, period 😊. Great summary!
@@isak6626 Thank you so much!
For a 7.1.6 setup as you describe, I"m assuming you'll need a pretty specialized/advanced amp, what do you recommend? or are there tricks to making existing systems that support fewer ceiling speakers support more?
Hi, love your content! Does your opinion aboht height speaker placement change depending on the ceiling height of the room? For example, 6' vs 10' vs 15'? Looking at the Atmos box, can you guesstimate the room dimensions based on the screen size?
I haven't really thought about 15 foot ceilings. Obviously, a 6 foot ceiling would be pretty rough. I think 8 feet hight is a great place to put the speakers. My new Atmos mixing room has 10 foot ceilings, but I am placing the heights at 8 feet high.
That’s the reason why Dolby spec specifies angle not height above the main speakers. If angle is preserved it doesn’t matter how high is your ceiling - it will come from the specific point.
I think showing a room/box shape is misleading. It should show the way auro3d shows a bubble. Then people can visualize why angles make sense - it’s not about corners in your space! Sound traveling to your front Atmos speaker is ok - it doesn’t mean it travels closer into your room if your ceiling is lower - it means it comes from that direction. So if it’s mixed to go up above the front soundstage it either will be mixed with front channels or spl will be lower than when coming from front speakers - mimicking greater distance of the object to you. If your room was square and your main listening position was in the middle it’s possible at certain ceiling height to have Atmos speakers directly over front and rear speakers whilst maintaining 45 degree to them.
With Auro3d they say to put over main speakers - front and side surrounds but at the same time they say to have them at 30 degrees. This is not possible with all rooms at variable ceiling heights.
Note position of speakers at 12:33 and 12:46 in the pro mixing room. Would it not be best to recreate that layout used in the studio to monitor the mix? Those speakers appear to fall within dolby instruction rather than following your suggestions here.
Any chance you can comment on the speaker layout in the mixing room?
Great information Techno Dad.I'm still using The Yamaha Rx 583 for 5.2.2. I went 4 channel in 1973/4 with 8 track tapes, anyone remember the 4 channel FM broadcast You needed 2 FM tuners.
Toby!!! Keep rocking that Yamaha…until the wheels fall off.
13.2 does me , it took a while but base level are all at ear level once seated, my height speakers are all same level and the top speaker is above my seat and it blows me away.. 😊
Nice!!!
You is da man TD. I will remember this stuff when I get my room.
Thank you Timothy!!
@@TechnoDad you're welcome
Great effort making the video, but after trying both options with front and rear heights, and in ceiling I prefer the home theater gurus option with in ceiling speakers. To me it was a big difference. 8’ wasn’t tall enough to noticed a good separation between base layer and front and rear height
First, I'm glad you found something that works well for you.
You will hear more sound when a speaker is physically closer to you, no doubt. The tradeoff is less accurate positioning of height objects based on the Atmos renderer and coherence between the ear-level speakers and heights. Just like stereo imaging breaks when placed too close or too far, the same thing happens with height speakers.
Great video! Your focus was more on the height speakers, but what do you think about the main bed layer? Shouldn't our 5/7 bed layer speakers be setup in a box format as well than instead of what dolby recommends? I've never understood why our rear or surround speakers should be so close to us in atmos.
I think the ideal is a square box room, you sit in the middle. Speakers in every corner, both at ear level and height level. Then a main center channel.
If you only have 5, the surrounds are intended (by Dolby) to be more beside you and only a little bit behind you. Maybe 110° to 120°. When you have 7.1, the side surrounds move go 90° and the rear surrounds move to around 150° in general, the front mains should be the front wall, the rear surrounds should be the rear boundry and the side-surrounds should be exactly halfway between them.
You could set up a 5.1 like a Quadrophonic setup with the addition of a center channel, but the rear surrounds being that far back has some weird psychoacoustic effects. Thats one of the reasons the rear surrounds are not used often for sustained playback.
Also acoustically you REALLY don’t want a square room with all equal sides.
Yes! I think it would be great to have the front L & R and Rear L & R in the corners.
@@clintstuckey There is a rather square room of 8,1 x 7,2 meter x 2,55m height (or ratios of 3.18 x 2.82 x 1) in which there are no axial resonance modi below 182Hz, nor retromodi and also no other than axial modi below 165Hz
@@FURognar the general laws of acoustics regarding boundary reflectios and interference at listenig level always apply, meaning in 2.0 or surround the spakers need to be away from the walls quite a bit (min 5ms of 90cm/3ft; preferably 10-20ms or ven further into the room - law of ellipses). This was proven by Jeremy Kipnis in his Beta studio, together with having a subwoofer per speaker , distanced no further apart than half the distance of the cut-off wavelength (ie. never in the corners of the room)
Thank you this was very informative. Is. Logical extension to this line of thought that we should have a center rear speaker as well?
Honestly, Channa is 💯 correct on this...he is basically describing an Auro3D setup. It's better than the Dolby recommendation and still works fine for Atmos.
Yep, pretty much!
Moved speakers but moved them practically back where i had them..unless I am not fully understanding but I felt that the atmos speakers sound terrible in line with the surrounds. Having too close to the line of the surrounds you are hearing almost zero channel separation this way. Having the back atmos speakers literally above where you sit sounds absolutely incredible.
I am building a dedicated room in my custom home build. The room will be 18' wide and 23'-6" deep with 10' ceiling. I will have second row seating which will be 15" above the first row. I plan on a 11.4.6 setup using JBL Synthesis in-wall speakers and a Trinnov Altitude processor. How would you recommend placing the 6 ceiling mounted Atmos speakers in this type of configuration?
I remember the old days like circuit city and the wiz Bose came out with those metal stands with sorround backs way up high
The main thing I got from this video is that I was right to stop engaging with HT groups on Facebook.
100%!!
They are fun to engage with. You just have to take it for what it is. Simply a fun diversion. Some people take those groups way too seriously.
Same with hi-fi (2 channel) groups. Full of "experts" who will always advise you to buy something more expensive. The very same people will push their speakers up against the walls, advise you to buy a very expensive speaker cable for your $250 pair of speakers because it will do some kind of magic to your system... etc. So tired of these fb experts I haven't read anything in those groups for more than 6 months now. Many of them claim to know everything yet are probably deaf and/or delusional.
Techno Dad I have a question, I’m using a 9.2.4 system now. Should I ditch the extra wide channels and use the extra heights instead for Movies and Games?
performance.
but just to say - i followed the prime elevation manual where it said to "place ypur height speakers as close as possible to the ceiling" and this is where your atmos tester revealed the defects. due to them being close to the ceiling AND the sidewalls (like in the DAR) they caused a lot of echo and completely messed up the directionality of the sound. so i moved it down and closer together - i had my wife hold the speaker up while listening to your tester and then decided on the position.
so i'd say yes on this proposal as a general guide but always.. test first!
you always want to be away from sidewalls, even with the front ear leval. I think the main princinble is keep them at the same palce as your ears just higher, which typically are as close to the screen edge as possible.
100%!! Test and listen. I hope she didn't have to hold them up for too long! LOL!
@@TechnoDad she appreciated the difference in sound as well.. worth all the blabbering during that time 😂😂
i'll be considering speaker on a stick next time (those parts doesnt seem to be easily available here)
Oh man!!! I did exactly what you said not to do. Although I’m extremely limited with my living room space and vaulted ceilings, and open concept. I did a 7.2.4 and my 4 heights are midway towards front/rear to seating position
Watch the fireballs scene of Dungeons and Dragons near the end and tell me if it sounds right when the fireball hits the building up on the top left there.
My 4K Copy of that is at my old house...maybe I can stream it? I'll have to see.
Hey T.D. What crossover point is recommended for atmos? Is there much bass, or even mid bass? Would having an 8” compared to a 6.5” make a huge difference? Maybe you could make a video discussing these.
I'd one day like to do 7.1.2 but currently I'm just rocking 5.1.2. I have my atmos speakers a little in front of me (maybe 50 to 45 degrees?). I couldn't do 90 degrees sadly due to a ceiling fan but I can say your calibration tool kit helped a ton.
I completely agree. I am in the process of building my home theater, but currently I only have a 6.1 receiver and separate amps. Often I even turn off my center because I have such an amazing phantom center. This absolute proof that the same can happen with the height speakers. Heck even with just my two front towers playing some of the 8D tracks on CZcams, I can even hear height. Whenever I am ready to buy a new receiver, I will have pre-wires for ceiling speakers, but i will probably experiment with speaker placement and settings. Will you have any more info for settings/adjustments for the height channels? Or is it as intuitive as I'm thinking...? Thanks!
If you are going to experiment with height speakers, I would look at my Speaker on a Stick design to test out height speaker locations - czcams.com/video/h7NWteMPO5A/video.htmlsi=WD4m1phNIxrerZT9
Makes a lot of sense.. my room is too small for surround back so I have 2 klipsche atmos on the ceiling but very slightly forward of my surrounds. (After watching your video I am honestly wondering what I was thinking not having them in line with the surrounds) I don't have any on the front but can hook up another 2. I am now going to move my 2 atmos speakers to directly above my surrounds and hooking up another 2 above my front left and right. Today I will move my surrounds but need to get more speaker wire before I hook up my front left and right atmos. I got the speakers on another system upstairs which I am not using atm so I just need to get more speaker wire. Makes a lot of sense. I honestly feel I learned something from this video. True hard to take in new information when I always think I know best. I been making music since mid 80's and into home cinema since late 90's...yes when you needed nicam stereo to get a dolby suround signal. :)
My system is a 5.1 at ear level, but I think you're correct. Multi channel music is also making similar advances as they are moving the sound stage around the room for some arrangements.
Thanks!
Have you played much with the top / front height settings of speakers in the AVR?
What you’re describing about 11mins in seems like a processor mapping thing? (With the helicopter going up)
At the end of the day, the speaker can try to “fake” the location of the object, but it won’t give you a better experience as placing the speaker in the correct location.
do you recommend the rear heights be directly above the rear surrounds or in the corner? I currently have two in wall rear surrounds that are at ear level hieght and 5 ft between them.. should the rears heights also be directly above the, and 5 ft apart or should they pushed more into the corners?
Hmmmm...can you send me pictures? I can't seem to picture that - TechnoDad55 at gmail dot com
Great video - thanks for the thought provoking content. I have a question. Does the Dolby renderer send different signals to your speakers based on whether you tell your AVR you are using height speakers or top speakers? In other words will a top front right speaker get different signals sent to it by the renderer than a front height right speaker? 🤔
The renderer won’t know that distinction, it just sends sounds to that speaker when the object is placed in that location. Changing that designation in the AVR will make the AVR change its delay I would imagine, but not change the signal itself.
I would love to have a 7.1.6 system. Unfortunately my receiver can only handle 7.1.4 with an extra amp. Will be a while before I can get all the speakers but will see how it turns out at some point.
Yeah, they are pricey...but the Denon X6700H has dropped in price. That's the one I use for 7.1.6 - amzn.to/3VOLZsG
@@TechnoDad Thanks very much
Fantastic insite MR. T. D.
Thanknyou!
😊
Q: what if the Atmos track in the movie is Not created to spec meaning objects poorly
Placed? Though your Setup is calibrated correctly? 😮
Well, that's always a thing. If the mix isn't that dynamic, then it's not that dynamic.
Performance. Just 1 question. What about the angels everybody is talking about. Or just put the speakers on the richt spot and angle them to main listingposition?
If I wanted to roll with angles, I would do 30 degrees up for front heights and the same on the other end, 30 degrees up from the rear surrounds.
Hey techno dad, so does this mean I should stick my rears in the corners of the room? Or do I just line up my rears with my front stage and basically put them across from wherever my left and right front speakers are?
I would put them above the mains.
@@TechnoDad sounds good, so where ever my rear bed-layer speakers are, the rear heights go right above that. Thanks! 🙏
@@TechnoDad so do the rear bedlayer speakers just sit across from the front left and right channel bedlayer speakers?
Respect. Definitely something to try and see if the difference is big. To be clear, just for the bed layer, you'd move surround to the middle of room and surround back to the back corners?
I put the side surrounds on the sides of the MLP and surround back to the back corners. Keep the speakers in line though…
Performance all day every day. Attractive theater style seating combined with awesome lighting definitely grasps my attention. But beautiful video on a large screen combined with immersive sound is what blows me away.
Awesome!
Hi,
just for the right understanding. My MLP is about a third of my room. Where should I put my side surrounds? 80°, 110° or exactly at 90°. In your layout the 6 atmos speaker are front/rear heights and top middles? So you have compatibility to Auro3d with VOC. Although the position for the top middles are side heights???
thx ☺
95-100 degrees
@@HT_addictok thx
And the Atmos speaker heights and TM or all speaker tops ?
Hey, Techno Dad, great video! I have no experience with Atmos at all and this episode brought me a lot closer to understanding, and almost answering my own questions.
In this video you said you were discussing dedicated theater rooms and not living rooms because the latter had too many compromises. Amen! But before I turn off the lights and go home on this idea, I thought I’d ask your thoughts on my specific scenario and if decoding Atmos is “worth the squeeze” as they say.
I have a 11x15x8 foot living room/ theater room with a ceiling mounted projector on the long end with the drop down screen 2ft from the front with an OLED tv about a foot from the wall, and a well calibrated 5.1 system using Paradigm reference LCR and paradigm in-wall surrounds in the back. The seating positions are on two couches along both sides of the 15’ wall, with the “MLP” about 40” from the rear wall. There is a row of three connected folding theater chairs from an old cinema along the back wall but that position is what it is. I just upgraded to a Yamaha A4A that can support 7.x.2 and decode Dolby Atmos. Right now I have it set up as bi-amped Left and Right 5.1. I could ceiling mount two paradigm CI Pro P80-A v2 or similar as the .2 Atmos heights… if it was worth it.
In your experience, would it be worth all the drywall dust, fiberglass rash, and money, or do you think it’s a do it right or not at all situation? Do you think I’d gain anything resembling Atmos, or would I be better off sticking with an articulate 5.1 setup?
Any thoughts would be deeply appreciated!
Thanks!!
So I have a 7.3.4... where do I put the front height channel speakers? in the front or in the middle.. currently they are in the middle..
The idea of the .4 setup is to have height speakers in front and behind your seating position, while sitting between them all. That way sounds can pan from front to back above you. And ideally, if they are wide dispersion speakers angled toward you, all 4 would sum together above your head, essentially creating a virtual phantom set of Top Middle speakers.
It all depends on how large your room is. I have had both setups and I like the heights to mimic the front and rear speakers. Selfishly, as I want my Atmos mixes to translate better to my Atmos home theater. I would say try it first before you mount anything. I use the speaker on a stick method - czcams.com/video/h7NWteMPO5A/video.html
OMG that story about the object changing in height just made me realize...thanks!
Now I got to rearrange my speakers. Sure some difference in height will work since we are not too sensitive to height differences in our hearing. But will for sure make the speakers more aligned to the same height. Right or wrong but I try to come as close to Dolby's recommendations as possible. And I try to mix both aesthetics and performance but aesthetics come slightly before performance since it's my living room also but if I were to have a dedicated theater performance would go first.
The official atmos layout gives me original Dolby Surround vibes, like just put some speakers there to give you a vague sensation of height, and sound coming from above, and your suggestion is more of the placing sound accurately exactly where it's encoded to live.
Dumb question… Just to confirm, if you are doing a 5.1.4 setup you should do surround heights above your surround left and right speakers? Also, would a 5.1.6 work? There is no available back wall, but the ceiling does continue.
I'm in the same position.
Well...that does make sense. However...when using surround height position, the way sounds are matrixed between the front height and rear height are not going to sound correct 100%. Maybe setting the rear height to top middle? That might work a bit better.
@@TechnoDad Thanks for the info, I appreciate it!... Maybe I can pick up some Monoprice THX satellites and try out some different positions (and position settings in AVR) before turning my ceiling/walls into Swiss cheese lol. Also, I could always repurpose the Monoprice THX satellites to garage speakers with a little sub.
Techno Dad can you please confirm the metadata being sent to heights the frequency range. Have seen it said nothing below 80 Hz and you only need small speakers due to this. I would assume that a larger frequency range is sent which is why i agree with bookshelves being ideal purpose for heights.
Actually adding 2 more height speakers this weekend to go to 7.1.6. Hope they arrive on time.
I can't watch your YT videos more without hearing "Through the room....moving around your room"
Hah! Yeah, I've been told that it's stuck in everyone's head.
7.1.6 is the best, but when the space is limited you go with 5.1.4... in the case of limited funds and the 5.1.2 is the only option is bette ti have the 2 atmos channels as front high or on top of the main sitting position?
Thank you for your insights and the info. Now, my Denon is a 7.4.4 capable unit. My 4 height speakers are in ceiling coaxials put into acoustic tiles and are located closer to my seating position so I'm located between the square below them. Should I move the front heights to the top of the front mains and the other pair of rear heights on top of the rear surrounds, since I do not have provisions for a 3rd pair of height speakers? Thanks for your attention... My room is 23' x 13.5' x 9' all concrete with drop acoustic ceiling, one window and one door, just to give an idea and i am sitting around the center of the room...
This man is number one disgrace
@@RanjakarPatel care to explain?
I agree with your assertion. I was also following Dolby Atmos specifications and wasn’t thrilled with the results. I’m missing the speakers I once had mounted top of my TV. But my receiver isn’t capable of producing the .6, only .4
Right on! Yeah, the AVRs that support 13 channels are not cheap, but the Denon X6700H should be going down in price - amzn.to/4cL0DqY
Wonderful explanation with complete logic! Great Work TechnoDad . I am a Great Fan of yours. I live in India wish I could get a hand at your created work.
Thank you! Do you have one of my Atmos mixes? Here's one - bit.ly/OMKNEWSGDARAtmos
Very good points. Another thing that supports your argument, look at the speakers that come with upfiring atmos speakers like the Klipsch. Those speakers are built right over the bed layer speaker.
Well of course they are, where else would they be? That doesn't mean it's an optimal placement. Truth is, upfiring speakers aimed at the ceiling are a bad idea and a major compromise at best. It took me over a year of rearranging my ceiling mounted Atmos speakers and the most accurate sound I achieved was when all 4 speakers were in the main listening position area, 55° in front and 55° behind my listening position. When the main left and right speakers are spread too far apart it destroys the soundstage. The same principle applies to ceiling mounted Atmos speakers.
@D.L.W. I didn't say they were expected to be anywhere else. I said it supports his theory of where they should be placed. Everyone knows upfiring speakers are a compromise, but that doesn't change the idea of them being right over the bed layer, which is what this video was about. If you are happy with where you placed yours than great but the point of this video was about why they shouldn't be where you put them and I tend to agree with the video. By the way I have in ceiling speakers, I was making a point about his concept.
Hey Channa!
Your video makes sense. I'm thinking the screen size compared to the room size is a factor, not so much the bed layer but the Atmos layer. I have a 100" screen, but my atmos speakers are out 2 to 3 feet past left/right of my screen.
I may need to move my atmos speakers.
For example, the atmos track for A Quiet Place when the moster moves down the basement stair case. The footsteps do not sound like they are coming from the top left of the screen, more like 2 feet out where i placed the speaker.
So what I'm thinking is I'm going to have to move my atmos speakers in line with my screen because to me it just makes more sense.
If I could fit a 150" to cover the wall then i think I would not have a problem. lol
Great video
Thanks man!
Yes, I can totally imagine what you are saying here. It's one of those things.
Perfect explanation!
Thank you!
With multiple rows, the speakers at home should be just above ear level so it's not blocked. My surrounds are actually just below ear level and some sounds still sound like they're over my head from the side surrounds (HRTF in the recorded sounds affects placement too). Most of these mixes are designed for the movie theater and their surrounds tend to be considerably above ear level anyway. So this notion that Atmos needs speakers at or below ear level is erroneous. You want separation between layers, but the layers don't have to be exactly at ear level. You do generally want to keep front/rear lower layer speakers relatively consistent with each other. If possible, LCR mains should be behind an audibly transparent screen. If not, you can employ a "dialog lift" mixer (Yamaha builds the feature into its AVRs) to simulate it with TVs and the like as well.
Agreed, but I would also include the center channel for a 7.x.7 configuration.
That's a tough one for Atmos, but I get it...seems like a good idea!
So where do you position the middle height speakers when the side surrounds are adjacent to the seating position. The seating position is 1/3 from the back wall. Do you colocated them with the side surrounds or in the middle of the room?
Great question!
yeah you would if you are trying to follow this advice. but if you havd 6 heights, thats where they should be anyway. for either method.
I would put the middle heights above the MLP, or just in front of the MLP and above. That way, you will get separation of the overhead effects and the rear effects.
Hey Techno Dad, so should I do 45 degrees to the left and right speakers each based on your previous findings working with the atmos renderer?
I would do that!
@@TechnoDad sounds good, thanks!! 🙏
I enjoyed this video. What are your thoughts on ceiling height? I totally get your thinking regarding setting up a theater like the dolby renderer. However, my ceiling is only 7.5ft heigh.
You may only need four height speakers with that low of a ceiling. Are your tweeters on the ear level at about 3 - 4 feet off the ground?
@@TechnoDadWould/can those 4 height speakers be on the front/back walls like in the 7.1.6 pdf? Or more “traditionally” placed 30-45 degrees around the MLP? Thinking about that helicopter example ands keeping it in the front of the room.
In a 5.1.4 system when the seating is against the wall. For my .4 I clearly want front height, but does it make sense to put the 2nd set above the surrounds or behind the seating position in the corner of the wall to be rear height? (Spacing maybe 6" behind seat).
I would say behind the seating location
So I brought my copy of SACT to my friend's house. He's got 7.2.4. Mid and rear heights. He hates me now, confirmed he needs to go to .6 and get those front heights, which also means an upgrade to his AV receiver. BTW SACT is a great upgrade tool. The panning test of the bed layer, makes me want side surrounds.
No he doesn't "need" to go 6 heights because he currently has his 4 in a sub-optimal position. I have my 4 heights at -35 degrees and +35 degrees (or 55 and 125 using the Dolby diagram) and my Atmos sounds amazing. Going to 6 height might be a very marginal improvement but not worth the much extra cost and hassle of re-situating height speakers etc. Your friend just needs to position his 4 correctly and he should notice a huge improvement.
Yeah, 6 height channels is hard to do and the AVR is pricey.
Ok, so the front and rear beds + heights should ideally be horizontally spread 45° from the MLP, and you commented that IF you were doing angles you’d put them at 30° above MLP, directly above the bed level speakers. Is that right?
But WOULD you do the 30° angles or would you just have downfiring height speakers? I’m always getting hung up on the type of heights to use.
Do you think placing the front and rear height speakers in the corners is more important than keeping them equidistant to the MLP? Also, if they are down firing in ceiling speakers and not aiming at the MLP, does that affect your findings or not?
Depends on where they are placed. Maybe equidistant is good if that’s what the space will allow.
@@TechnoDad Lol, ok. Let me be a bit more specific. MLP is at 2/3 room length. Would you recommend putting the front heights equidistant from MLP or back to the front wall?
I've got a Dolby Atmos 7.1.4/Auro-3D 13.1 setup running on my Denon X6700H and certainly know there is room for improvement in my living room. Though I can't easily make the speaker location change proposed here, I like the concept discussed!
Thank you for sharing! Have you tried my Speaker on a Stick to test it out - czcams.com/video/h7NWteMPO5A/video.html
I went with my room limitations. I finally was able to put my surround sound speakers and hide the wires through my attic. I put them on my mantle fireplace. Yes they are a bit high but would be blocked by 2 lazyboy chairs in my rectangle shaped small living room. My new klipsch book shelve speakers sound great. I haven’t even run Dirac live on my new pioneer elite lsx 305 yet.
Run that Dirac and get that system sounding it's best!
Great talk I agree with you and for me performance first then aesthetics second.
Woot Woot!
Hey Channa! Man did I LOVE this video. I have always been and always will be a performance guy! After watching this video I think you make an AWESOME radio talk show host! Just another hat for Channa to wear! Have a great week! 😎
Ayyyyy!!!!! What is UP, Kevin?!?! Thank you for watching.
@@TechnoDad AWESOME to hear from you Man! All is good here, hope it’s the same with you! Have an EXCELLENT week! 😎
I appreciate you Channa! Excellent information, thanks SO MUCH! I'm doing a 7.8.6 setup with Trinnov as per your spec
Nice! Let me know how it goes!
amazing explanation !!!
Thanks!
I've read that in an acoustically well treated room with multiple seats, dipole speakers are good as right and left surrounds. How true is this? Please guide.
Awesome video as always Channa!! I think this pretty much answers the long debate of Atmos placement!!
Thank you for watching!
This helps quite a bit. My dedicated room is 13x12. I have 2 Emotiva in ceiling about 3' in front of my seating and was trying to avoid cutting more holes and running wires. Now I think I will add 2 above the TV up front and 2 behind my seating position.
Oh, wait...13 channels, damn. Well, maybe I add 2 up front until I can up my channel count😅
Yeah, it requires a larger AVR, but the X6700H has dropped in price - amzn.to/3VOLZsG
Think it would be worth returning the refurb X3800H for a refurb X6700H to have the extra channels available as I build out my theater? I've got 5.1 with 4 speakers ready to go up for heights, using them as heights instead of tops would actually help maximize PJ screen size since they would be out of the way. Would you put a great base layer over any Atmos? Thanks!
I suppose. Depends on the price difference…
You are absolutely spot on! Loved the video. Very experienced. It’s very true everything you have just said. I concur because I have the exact same experience as you . There is way too many videos out there, a lot of it doesn’t make sense.. lol
Thank you so much!
Room shape and size will always take president in my opinion. I have a very small room but still manage a fully functional 7.2.6 setup. I have typical 7ch base layer setup, but heights are in between what you and Dolby advise. My FH's are above L&R, my MH's are roughly between LR & SLR, and finally RH's between SLR & SBLR, for me, this covers every angle and very enveloping, all.this in a 2.5m wide room by 5m long 😁👍
Performance Period!
Woot woot!
Channa, I laid out 6 channels on the top. Two in the front, two in the center and two in the rear... all above the base layer speakers. I can't use all 6 on heights at once so I put a switch A/B/A+B. Currently, it is calibrated for top front and top rear. This just felt like a natural way to do, and I don't know the ABC of HT. I use an Integra DRX 8.4 btw.
Word! Well, the Denon X6700H is down in price - amzn.to/3VPQQJU
@TechnoDad turns out the drx8.4 also can do 6 heights but has to sacrifice two base. It is basically a 11.4 with XLR I/Os and DLBC both of which are crucial for me.. Doesn't denon have only 11 channels? Or is it 13 processing?
@@stackoverflow8260 The Denon X6700H processes 13 channels and powers 11.
moving too new house it's all in storage! thinking of building a shed room like i saw on u tube. theres not a room thats quite what i need shape wise ! i'm hearing my movies and stuff on a klipsch home theater system right now! sounds good though too me!!!
Nice! You can do everything from scratch it seems!
Hello sir, can you guide me little bit, I have one Yamaha home theater system rx v4a which comes with speakers and subwoofer also, I want to change my speakers to bookshelf one I don’t want the tall speakers, what will you recommend me !
Did you have a price range in mind?
@@TechnoDad not more then 1 k $
Yeah, I noticed the same thing you mentioned about the helicopter when watching Mission Impossible Fallout with the chopper scene. It sounded more realistic on my Auro 3D bedroom setup that has the front atmos speakers right above the front left and right versus my living room setup which has them in the front center.
Hey Daddyman ...Does this make a difference when I use Auro 3D also ?
This is essentially an Auro-3D layout except for the VOG will be matrix’d between the two middle heights. The middle heights would be best to be in ceilings pointing down at the MLP.
Hmm, so yes, my back surround and sidesurrounds are not placed on ear level, why? Because it's my living room. Just not gonna happen. So it's not exactly how the artists intended it to be placed, but hey, it sounds 500x better than those goofy soundbars, and it's not the end of the world that your soundstage is some what lifted
Ow I totally agree with TD about height channels. I have just 2 height speakers, but they,re NOT in my ceiling but right above my front speakers. If I going to place back height surrounds they will be right above my back surrounds
Living rooms are pretty rough. I know mine in the last home was a tough place to put an Atmos setup, but I was able to get 5.1.4.
the whole intendtion here is for you to do whatever means necessary to do it correctly. what is wrong with you?
@@TechnoDadso in a 5.1.4 were your height above your base speakers?
I believe thats what hes saying, mirroring the speakers!@@randolphsettgast12
If my atmos receiver Only has 4 atmos channels Where do I place the speakers in the Ceiling
above your ear level speakers
I have a 7.2.6 system. The 6 height speakers are connected to a separate 6 channel emotiva basx amp. When I turn off the bed layer speakers and listen to just the height speakers, there really isn't much coming from the heights. I watched the bombing scene from Midway just before this reply and there are plenty of bullets whizzing by and another plane passing overhead but for the majority of the scene the heights are silent. Knowing what I know now, I think I can get the same results with a 7.2.4 system using in ceiling speakers that are located slightly in front and behind of my primary listening position. Don't skimp on side surround speakers, there is plenty of sound coming from these bed level speakers.
Have you heard any of my Atmos mixes, Mike? I think you may enjoy them. Here's the newest one - bit.ly/OMKNEWSGDARAtmos
Do you have the volume of the heights cranked up high enough? Try the "Riddles in the Dark" scene from the Hobbit..
I go for performance. I don't mind seeing the speakers in my Living/Media Room. I just don't want a big screen & a projector. I think any Living Room could benefit from Acoustic Treatments. I will eventually get a Micro LED Display to put into my room with JTR Speakers system throughout.
Wow! Those are some big speakers!
Boom 💥 eye opener!
Thank you!
Some very interesting and useful info in this video, Channa. 🤓
Thank you. 🙏🏻
Thank you!
Does the atmos mix transition as object moves front to back with multiple speakers or do all get the same signal all the time. Do the front speakers phase out as object gets to middle and the middle phase out as object transitions to rear overhead atmos speakers to create an accurate sound of linear movement up just in fronts then just to mids and finally to overheads/rears only? This would be true reference atmos and support multiple (6) speaker layout. Just a thought perhaps this already occurs. If not, Techno Dad is the phase transition viable? Do you and think you could engineer this effect? Perhaps I’m a doofus! Anyway thanks for doing what you do!
What's the benefit of the calibration disc compared to using Dirac or Audyessy MultiEQ-X?
I use the disk to check to see if the "auto cal" got it right and to use the disk to make corrections. It's nice to use the disk to listen to Channa's objects move smoothly from speaker to speaker once all of the speaker placements and distances are correctly set. It can be done without the disk by setting the AVR to output all speakers stereo and listen for echos. Then the task is to figure out which speaker is set wrong. I'm surely losing hair trying to get my system just right. But, is there a "just right"?
So if I understood correctly. I dont have to worry about the 30 degree or 45 degree angles, just place the height speakers exactly above the bed layer and I should have a wonderful Atmos, Auro experience?
You have to keep it within that 30°-45° range because if you go too high, you lose the coherence between your ear-level speaker and the height speaker.
@@joentellhi Joe, so should I put my left channel and right channel 45 degrees off the MLP each? Just wondering if you and TD changed your setups to reflect 45 degree angles after making the spatial calibration toolkit given your findings about when something appears in the left or right channel.
Just want to make sure my bedlayer is setup correctly before mirroring it with the heights.
@@joentellmy ceiling is 7.5 feet tall should I still worried about the angles. I am still not sure about how to implement technodad's suggestion. Because it appears I just have to copy my bed layer up above.
so for your overhead speakers would you have them all facing the viewers? so the speakers on would be front facing... side facing and then rears? or would you literally place 3 on each wall facing in towards the viewers exactly like the diagram.? if this is the argument then in ceiling speakers arent as good as wall mounted overheads which is fine just makes me curious.
That's great if you have 7.1.6 but many systems are 7.1.4 so how do you set that where you can't go one for one straight up and down?
Ok Techno Dad…this is the first time I commented on one of your videos and I actually just subscribed. This was your best description yet of what you have been preaching for a while. Setting up my 7.1.6 (with multiple subs) and I am going to use your recommendations because they make fucking sense. Anyway, just wanted to throw that out and say thank you. I am using some angled speakers for Dolby Atmos that will (for the most part) be mounted on the ceiling so I will have to make some adjustments due to correct positioning toward main listening position, but I think I can make it work. Keep doing what you’re doing and screw the naysayers.
Nice! Thank you for watching and thank you for commenting. Welcome!
I think this concept works great but only if you have 10 to 12-ft ceilings. Someone like me with Atmos at 8 and 1/2 ft. It's hard to get enough separation between the side surrounds and if I were to have Atmos channels directly above on the walls.
I’m about trial and error. I won’t just assume one is better than the other, I would try them out. I’ve done that. So I would say, try it out and see what’s up.
Wow ❤, you have noticed the gap and made us realise. You're brilliant! 🙌🙌🙌
Thank you!
I love it!
Performance!! TD I see your point but for those (like me) with living room set ups this will be a challenge. My couch is against the wall and I had to place my Surround backs 2 feet above my listening position/ears (above them are my heights - 8.5'). So the sonic linear relations/movement you spoke of will not be attainable for me. However, the other spkrs I can givee a floating buddy equivalent above. Cheers to the insights though.
Ayyy! I had the exact same issue. I decidedly not to run surround back due to the couch being up against the wall. I gotta say, with every passing year, we learn more and more about Atmos and where things should go. It’s up to everyone to have an open mind about this new technology, other than dismissing things they don’t understand.
@@TechnoDad Yep! I like to explore and try things based on my own specifics. Do you think using bi-pole speakers at the surround back instead (couch against wall) will make a difference? I will also test things with your approach - not running suround back. Being open minded is a good approach in life.
I'm probably wrong, but I think for rear speakers I don't like direct radiating speakers but I like Dipole/Bipole speakers. Atmos speakers can be mounted at ceiling on upper wall with a slant speaker.
I had bipolar as surrounds for quite some time.
Hey man, you have any videos on UST projectors? I’m looking hard at them right now lol