Garden Tomb vs. Holy Sepulchre: The Quest for the REAL Tomb of Jesus
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- čas přidán 27. 05. 2024
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The vast majority of Christians recognize The Church of the Holy Sepulchre as the authentic tomb of Jesus. But starting in the mid-1800s, Protestant Christians started to argue that an alternate tomb, outside the walls of Jerusalem, was the REAL tomb of Jesus.
Select imagery/video supplied by Getty Images and Reuters.
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It seems as I feel you do not identify with one specific religion. But all the best if all. It's very simple. LOVE=GOD. Are you a specific religion? 🎉
Please make a video about the Bon Religion of Tibet
As someone raised protestant (Presbyterian), I can confirm that "vibes" are how we are taught to measure spirituality.
As a former Evangelical, yeah can confirm.
As a Protestant Presbyterian, I can conclude that you didn't pay attention or bothered to. Sola Scriptura ring a bell??
@@alantinoalantonioGiven that scripture was written in a language you do not speak, in a cultural, religious, and social context utterly different than our own, yes, you are relying on a lot of "vibes." If you don't believe me, just read Calvin on self-authenticating nature of Scripture. Nothing but vibes.
You can still greatly misunderstand it even if you believe it's infallible.There is so much history and cultural context necessary to truely understand what's going on in most cases! Relying on an "intuitive" understanding of what you read, rather than supporting facts from scholars IS highly fallible@@alantinoalantonio
Dude, there is absolutely no need to go to Jerusalem to experience that vibe. Just pick a resembling structure in your local municipality. Its only a waste of money going travel to Jerusalem and visiting the wrong tomb.
As it says on Rumi's Tombstone:
"When we are dead, seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men."
Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi♥️
It is weird how our religious upbringing forms our expectations of how divinity should look like. For me, someone who grew up catholic in Latin America, ornate walls, statues and stained-glass are just how churches should look like. The strip down nature of some evangelical churches have always given me a corporate America spiceless vibe
Some evangelical preachers wear suits like a businessperson. Prosperity gospel preachers are pretty much businesspeople. Many evangelical churches also slick logos and websites much like a business. So saying some evangelical churches give off corporate vibes seems about right.
That's exactly it. But it's also about how there are so many of them. It looks like they are church chains or sometimes small businesses. There's an idea of individualism such that if you don't like some belief, you can just open a church.
@@themanwhosleptin2517 I grew up evangelical (not anymore, thankfully) and I hadn't realized the business suit imagery until I read your comment. It makes so much sense. Where I live (also in Latin America) ''cool'' churches started to pop up as well, with pastors donning ridiculously expensive designer streetwear clothing preaching in churches that look like nightclubs and have English language slick names. I guess it's just the newest market niche being filled by them.
There’s several ways to understand this, but one of them is that the Catholic Church is rich. They are one of the biggest landowners in NYC, for example. Most evangelical churches are not as rich. (Megachurches are the exceptions rather than the rule). Also as noted, many evangelical churches are not a centralized system so they are much more dynamic in practices. Many contextualize evangelical churches as the commodification of religion, i.e. business suits, but many evangelicals would contend that they are actively rejecting religion as a commodity for religion as an experience.
Muhammad Ali? Ruler of Egypt? He is a man of many talents.
The greatest.
I'm kinda sad that not many people seem to understand this joke...😂
@@andrewsuryali8540 but at least I got a heart from the channel! Hehe. That makes up for it.
I speak like a butterfly, rule like a bee.
Absolutely golden
You can definitely see how this tomb appeals more to the protestant aesthetic than the Church of the Holy Selpuchre, like it goes with the entire idea that religious places should be humble and that worship should be focused on inner or communal experiences.
It's also something that they can feel smug about. Which protestants love more than anything in the world.
I’m not believing anymore, but originally Protestant. And my first reaction was with the first one: nah, what a nonsense. First reaction with the second one: yes, I can see that, before realizing that it’ is as fake as the other one. Probably my eyes are still Protestant
Because nothing says humble solemnity focused on inner experiences like a contemporary rock band lol
@@gf11511The problem with protestantism, from the very beginning, is that it is so easily splintered. Your analysis is true for some sects and not others.
@@codycrawford7842 To be fair, Christianity was splintered from it's very earliest days. The letters of the New Testament describe a variety of theological and practice oriented schisms as the early church struggled to define its beliefs. Many of the letters purported to be written by Paul deal directly with different groups who have very different ideas about what that meant to "be faithful." Later, the more Orthodox Churches were not unified either. Even the Catholic Church used different monastic orders to allow for a certain amount of variation in theological interpretation in a church that otherwise pretended to be a monolith.
I grew up mormon, and for a while our church-published set of scriptures included a photo of the garden tomb, with text heavily implying it was the real one. Fascinating to see a video about it years later with skeptical eyes.
I thought for a long time that it was a Latter-day Saint specific location. Once I found out it was a Protestant one, I lost interest.
Mormonism isn't Christianity it's a religion disguised as one
I thought the mormons are protestants ?@@jacobjensen7704
Sorry you grew up Mormon. That’s a real shame.
@jaredmuirhead7615 - Especially after seeing that clip of the "Prophet" giving himself wiggle room! (I am a very happy Former Mormon.)
B.B.E. -before the beard era
Andrew is William Riker confirmed.
@@Salsmachev You mean this channel "grew the beard"?
@@andressigalat602 Yes that was the joke.
I grew up Baptist. In the mid-80s, my family took a “Holy Land” tour that featured a visit to this tomb site. It was a long time ago, but I recall it presented with “possibly” disclaimers. We also visited the Holy Supulchre, but it was implicitly dismissed as “the Catholic” tomb.
Which is odd since the lion's share of the "Catholic" tomb is owned by the Greek Orthodox Church
@@dewd9327in the protestant mind the 2 are one in the same
@@mikejames303 yea, the amount of times I've been told to "stop being a Roman Catholic" by a protestant, while actually being Orthodox is concerning
@@dewd9327it's because they think Christianity came from America, which is true for their version. For them it was Jesus and the apostles, then American evangelicalism, nothing in between. I'm sure if they knew anything about Orthodoxy they would consider it just as "idolatrous" as Catholicism. I've seen protestants say "I didn't feel the spirit" in the Holy Seplucher church, but they did at the garden tomb. Which goes to show that by relying on their own emotions or what they think is the Holy Spirit they can easily be deceived. Exhibit A: their interpretation of scripture.
I know a story of another British soldier, stationed in the Holy Land right after the Second World War, who was less enamored of the place. He wrote to his family, “here I am in Bethlehem, where Christ was born; but I wish to Christ I was in Wigan, where I was born.”
@Squirrelmind66 - There is a "Religion for Breakfast" episode that discusses if Yeshu' was even born in Bethlehem or not.
From this short passage, it doesn't seem like he was not enamored by the place but that he just wanted to go home.
@@MossyMozart You're a quack
I get the sense that many modern Western Protestants (particularly evangelicals) have similar views today towards Christians in the Middle East. Middle Eastern Christians are mostly Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or some other liturgical church, and many western evangelicals do not consider them true Christians or view them in a patronizing way. For example, during the invasion of Iraq in 2003, American evangelicals were very vocal supporters of the invasion but did not consider much about how the war would affect Iraqi Christians. I have heard a story of an evangelical who did not care how the war would affect Iraqi Christians because Iraqi Christians are mostly Catholic. Similarly, today many American evangelicals support Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and its bombardment of Gaza, but do not seem to care much about how Israel’s policies are affecting the dwindling Palestinian Christian population, most of whom are Catholic or Orthodox.
Edit: to add to this, this brings to mind Edward Said’s concept of Orientalism, or the shallow or patronizing views and assumptions many Westerners have towards people of the Orient, particularly the Middle East. Many American evangelicals have Orientalist views. They often see middle easterners, especially Muslims, as savages that must be “saved”.
Edit 2: in March 2024, Congressman Tim Walberg, a former ordained evangelical pastor, said that the US should not spend money on humanitarian aid for Gazans, but instead treated like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He does not seem to care about how that will affect the small Christian population in Gaza, which are mostly Orthodox or Catholic and already in the decline.
Moreover, almost a decade ago, Sen. Ted Cruz, who is Southern Baptist, was booed off stage when speaking to conference that was meant to raise awareness of Christian persecution in the Middle East. He was booed because he said that Israel is one of the greatest allies to Christians. Once again, this shows a disconnect many western Protestants have with middle eastern Christians.
Interesting because one of the places that got bombed was a orthodox church in Gaza that both the Christian and Muslim locals used as a refuge with hundreds being injured or killed and it flu completely below the radar in English speaking media.. Maybe they thought it's not important enough or " Christian" enough to be mentioned?
American protestantism has been essentially hijacked by the religious right. Its almost enough to turn me into a Catholic.
Very good points. That last one really hits home.
This is easy to understand.
American evangelical Christians are first, before the faith even enters the picture, conservative people. That means, in the world of today, that they are, first, before anything about faith, obtuse, defensively ignorant, nationalistic, warlike, and dominating.
None of which are prescribed by Christ, or Christ's example.
Wild considering the original Christians were in the Middle East.
As a young Catholic, I always thought it was strange my Protestant friends would visit the garden tomb when they went to Israel.
They probably thought the same of you.
@@paulkoza8652 Yes, but... they were right in this case (not saying the HS is the real deal, though its antiquity, location, and other details make it the more likely candidate if either is it at all).
Well yea, because it's a fake. And they know it. They are just so full of disdain fir Catholicism that they invent not only their own denomination, but also fake historical sites. It's a real shame.
@@paulkoza8652Based on all the evidence it’s pretty clear Protestants wanted “their own” tomb. Which is strange because you could still be Protestant if you choose and still recognize the authenticity of the Holy Sepulcher.
The custodians of the garden tomb even admit on their website their not sure if this is the real tomb but it’s “ultimately unimportant”. 💀
@@paulkoza8652difference his was legit
Thanks for this vid. I follow a channel about Israel that mostly caters to Brazilian evangelicals, and they presented this garden tomb thingy as the legit grave of Jesus. I was like: "dang, what about the well-known Church of the Holy Sepulcre?". Thanks for crearing all this up.
I think this summarizes very well Protestant theology: it would rather accommodate and change settings just to fit their personal beliefs over what communities have professed for millennia.
no u
You can tell that the channel is really gaining popularity. The comments section seems to get nuttier and nuttier with every video.
hahahaha....
I remember there being some nuttiness in the comments of any video where he mentioned Egypt.
@ClarionMumbler - Do tell?
It feels like it depends on the topic.
I think that's a given for any channel about religion
I understand that Catholic and Orthodox rites may seem elaborate for certain branches of Protestantism, but it seems weird to me that this criticism should be coming from British tourists, since the Church of England and mainline Anglican / Episcopalian churches are right up there in terms of elaborateness.
You know, the protestants' reaction to the holy sepulchre makes me wonder if there is a direct line between protestantism and new age spirituality. The rejection of the "gaudy" excess (adultered aesthetics) in favour of a more humble spirituality reminds me of new age's rejection of everything 'unnatural' (adultered substances) in favour of a return to natural balance.
I suspect it has more to do with democratization of religiosity and freedom of thought that sprung from the same source, which was science and the Enlightenment. That, plus interaction with familiarity with the religion of the "Indians" (Indigenous American spirituality and practices) and perhaps growing influence of religion of the Indians (from India, e.g. Dharmic religions) may have led to a plethora of possible syncretic admixtures.
@@jakeaurodthat’s very true. Interestingly though many indigenous communities had elaborate temples and sacred spaces. And Hindu temples are also often elaborate and decorative in their architecture. Could be anecdotal experience as USAmerican here, but it feels like American Protestantism is unique in much of the world for having pretty bland worship spaces (mostly in charismatic sects. Lutheran and Anglican and more trad mainline sects seems to be in a middle ground). Though they balance it out with contemporary technology and rock bands
I can understand the appeal of the Garden Tomb. It's unadorned and humble, which meshed very nicely with the type of Christianity I was raised with. I can see my white, Midwestern grandma being more familiar with the imagery of the Garden Tomb over the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
The problem is that unadorned churches is a modern invention
@@danfsteepleEarly churches before Constantine were frequently unadorned. Additionally, churches in many churches have been unadorned since the Reformation which started in 1517. Not to many people think of 500 years as being modern.
@@rebeccaorman1823 Do you have a source for the adornment or lack thereof between those before and after Constantine? Also, on the adornment of early Protestant denominations? Not all Protestant denominations are so stripped down.
@@rebeccaorman1823 the synagogue in Huqoq has mosaics from the Septuagint and Saint Luke the Evangelist wrote the first icon of the Theotokos called Directress
I see that too, but, of course, the irony is how allergic certain kinds of Protestants are to information passed down through traditions (which, in the case of the Holy Sepulchre, is almost certainly more LIKELY to be authentic for reasons this channel has mentioned before), as well as to the raucous, freewheeling, communal nature of belief. The Holy Sepulchre at least hosts a much longer legacy and gives those Midwestern moms a glimpse into the ancient Churches.
Omg, the tour guide I went with in Israel/Palestine took us to this place. I was so disappointed with my experience. Just a little garden with a hole in a cliff, and a gift shop. Though there was a cool ancient wine press in the grounds from Classical Antiquity. Probably just a family grave from then. I guess the skull-looking cliff is kind of cool. The guide within the grounds said that it was a popular place for public executions.
Cool tomb if you have an academic interest in Iron Age burial practices or modern Evangelical culture.
@@ReligionForBreakfast I was so sad I didn't get to go to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. A chapter in my thesis will cover that location. The tour I was in was Evangelical; tagging along with my folks. Thank you for teaching me the reality of the Garden Tomb, it was maddening hearing so much misleading information throughout my tour.
It's hard to avoid any location in the Holy Land without a gift shop.
@paulkoza8652 but specifically at the Garden Tomb there's no way of exiting unless one goes through the gift shop
@@ziontours5893 Because god needs money.
I'm constantly chagrined by the endless commercialization of the Faith. Even worse is the aggressive politicization of it.
Well. It's gone on since the beginning, and will no doubt never end.
I appreciate your soundminded and rational and dignified presentation here, Sir.
I went to a funeral recently at a modern American “worship center.” They had a bookstore inside the entrance.
It’s been a while since I’ve read the Bible, but I feel this is one of the topics that was pretty cut and dry.
This further solidifies that I want to go to the Church of the Holy Sepulcher if I get the chance, despite me being Protestant (Episcopalian).
i'm lutheran, and i agree
I just wanted to say whenever you put out a video I have to text my mom to let her know because she refuses to make a CZcams account but she loves you so much 😂
I have this odd feeling that if the Protestants were granted a space in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher they wouldn’t have bothered with the Garden Tomb. But then again, the Protestants of that era might have considered the idea of sharing space with “idolaters” to be unacceptable. Ecumenism is a pretty new movement in Christian history.
Any "scholar" who asserts that the walls of 16th century Jerusalem and the wall of 1st century Jerusalem, are the same, should be ashamed to be called a "scholar". I am neither a scholar nor historian, but i possess some brain cells to know that areas like Jerusalem, besieged so many times, are very dynamic and changes over time.
the old guy in the LDS video is making me giggle a bit "...orsomewherenearby"
@viv4736 - He was the "Prophet" of the LDS church (Mormons), the actual head of the church who (supposedly) talks to god. @_@ So glad a left them.
@@MossyMozart LDS is like christianity if it was written by a teenager on wattpad in 2013
"The Garden Tomb must be the real one because we don't like 'bells and smells Catholicism'!"
Mohammed disliked bells as well. This is why mosques have minarets. Are you an islam?
Pop logic to its finest.
It’s interesting it’s often European Christian’s coming in and determining what is legitimate or not. What about the local Palestinian Christian communities that have been there for millenia? One would think they’d at least have a say or opinion from the era when the tombs started getting debated (likely ignored though)
Archeology is used as a political tool of oppression by Israel against the Palestinians. Anything that doesn't fit the narrative is erased or minimized. Tourism to Bethlehem and Nazareth are tightly controlled so that western Christians don't spend too much time actually meeting Palestinians. And Palestinians are routinely displaced to make way for "archeological digs" (which if they don't find anything become still more illegal settlements).
The largest community of Palestinian Christians are Orthodox, and the Orthodox Catholic Church has since the earliest times affirmed that the Sepulchre is the Tomb of Christ, so its not like there was any debate as to which was the "real" tomb among the Palestinian Christians. Roman Catholic, Orthodox both EO and OO as well as the Church of the East, all of them descending from the Nicene Church affirm that the Sepulchre is the Tomb of Christ.
Well considering that the local Palestinian Christians are majorly either Orthodox or Catholic. And if we're also counting minorities such as the Armenians, Egyptians etc, then they say that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is the real site.
It's really funny that you thought you did something here. I came back to this comment thread and reread what you said. "Likely ignored though" who is ignoring who? Your point tries to draw sentiment to palestinian Christians that they aren't being heard etc when, in actuality, you don't care enough about them to know that majority of Palestinian Christians are Eastern Orthodox and Catholics(melkite, Latin), and a minority are oriental orthodox(Armenian, coptic, syriac etc)
Despite what he lacked in archaeological standards, Gordon really was a fascinating man. His time in china especially.
Catholics versus Protestants? We're back to the 1500s!
Sola fide was a mistake lol
I definitely think that you look much better in the PBE (post beard era) but the hair is great in both times!
I greatly enjoy your CZcams channel. Thank you.
I bought a few books from your Amazon list. Thank you for the suggestions!
Thanks Andrew. I was in Jerusalem a few years ago. Although I did not visit the garden tomb, I did visit the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. I found it to be a very mystical experience. I had a difficult time believing that Jesus was crucified and buried within walking distane of each other. I take all of this with a grain of salt.
The distance is around 42-45 meters. Historically speaking, if there's ever any need to dispose of the body of a crucified person quickly, any hole in the ground would do. The evangelists were writing about their divine hero. They weren't about to say his carcass was dumped by legionaries into the nearest hole. Ironically for people like me who DON'T believe the gospel accounts, the arrangement of the Holy Sepulchre makes a lot of sense.
@@andrewsuryali8540Crucifixion victims would often be given proper birials by their families or friends. Also it wouldn't have been legionaries executing Jesus, they were up in Syria.
The holy sepulcher is archeologically more valid: it was outside the walls of jerusalem in 33 ad, the area was enclosed by agrippa ii starting in 44 ad and wasn’t finished until almost the outbreak of the first jewish war; the location was already venerated by the early Christian jews until it was buried by hadrian in ad 132-135 under the temple of venus, this had the unintended consequences of marking it for perpetual memory and preserving the remains until it was excavated and memorialized by helena in the 4th century; furthermore, golgotha is just north of the gabbatha of the praetorium, herod’s twin palace complex that became the property of rome after his death, it is 15 minutes walk or 30 minutes if you were carrying a cross from gabbatha to golgotha, this was not known until well into the 21st century through archaeology.
The garden tomb could never have been the tomb of Jesus because it is more than 700 -1000 years too early, because it is a first temple era tomb
@@andrewsuryali8540 Interesting point.
@@bobhelmet750 There is exactly ONE evidence of a buried crucifixion victim, maybe two once the bones' provenance get sorted out. There is instead multiple attestations over hundreds of years that the crucified were left to rot or at best dumped into garbage pits.
Pilate was a prefect, not a procurator. He was literally part of the legion itself. His escort would have been at least a legionary cohort. If it's true he was the one who crucified Jesus, ot would have been done by legionaries.
Great video. Thank you.
Its always a good day when there a new video of yours, I always wonder what your favorite cukutre or belief system is to learn about
I would definitely visit both the holy seplecure and the garden tomb if given the chance.
So far the coolest archeological site I have visted was the stone age burial chamber maeshowe in the Orkney islands. My wife planned it as my birthday trip last year.
It's amazing how a group of treasure hunting vikings broke into meashowe in the middle ages, incorrectly thinking they would find t
"Treasure" in a stone age tomb. They likely didnt find what they were looking for. But they did leave behind a treasure trove of viking ruinic graffiti.
The viking acts of plundering and desecrating a 4000 year old burial site with graffitti, would probably have been horrifying to their contemporaries. But another 1000 and these acts seem to add to the modern day appeal of the site.
All over Orkney island there were other sites where archeologists were faced with the dilema: to we escevate the site and destroy it in analysis? Or do we leave the site alone and intact.
Apparently the nearby stone age village of scara brea extended further inland, but archeologists only escevated the sites closest to the shore and most at risk of being washed into the sea.
the beardless version looks fresh though
Honestly there's zero way to know for sure where Jesus was on Saturday. As a Christian, if I were to go to Jerusalem I think I would go to both places to worship. The church is beautiful and has a history to it.
The garden tomb has a feeling of what it might have felt like to be in Jesus' time (even if it wasn't an actually from the first century). It's the same reason I'm going to an event in Florida today. It'll be a walk thru attraction with actors recreating the story of Holy Week. It's experiential. I feel like the Garden Tomb would fit a similar value
If I were in Jerusalem for Easter I'd absolutely do an Easter service at the Garden Tomb. It would definitely be more the "vibe" I grew up in.
As Congregational UCC, who grew up with a very plain and simple "meeting house" as our worship place, when I went to Jerusalem when I was 18-19, I also found the Church of the Holy Sepulchre off-putting, and I preferred the Garden Tomb - although I doubted that either place was the actual site. But to me it's the prayers and the veneration of the worshippers that make a site holy. By the way, I love the picture of you hugging the columns. Me - I have a tendency to cry when I visit archaeological sites because I'm so overwhelmed by the sense of history. Such place provide a tangible sense of connection with people in the past -- which is exactly why pilgrimage sites are so popular, if you think about it.
The problem with the Garden tomb it was recently discovered in 1800's and the Israeli archeologist dated this tomb dated this grave to the 7th to 8th century BC so it's hundreds of years before Jesus and in the Scriptures Jesus was buried in a new tomb and they also date the elements of this tomb as the time of crusaders who arrived in 1100 after Jesus. this on contradicts the scriptures. and second point the Holy Sepulcher in 2016 was examined by Israeli and Athens archeologist and it was dated at the time of Israel second temple and the time of Jesus. as per the professionals the Holy Sepulcher is more likely the places where Jesus was buried. on the other hand, the early Church Fathers and the early Christians was able to identify the exact location of Jesus Crucifixion and burial site basically because they are decedents of the witness of the crucifixion and or disciples of the apostles, they are more reliable ever than a guy who discover a tomb in 1800's.
As a pentecostal i believe that holy seplechure is probaly where Jesus may have been buried and raised. I dont deny the signifigance and beauty of the garden tomb but because the city has changed i tend to believe that Jesus tomb is there but just inside the current walls.
I have a connection to Dwieght L. Moody. My parent's taught at a school created by him. The school was Northfield Mount Hermon (NMH) in Gill, Massachusetts. Gill is located in Western Massachusetts.
Shout out to the LDS scholarly crowd. I can definitely attest to the cultural expectation of what the tomb should look like.
I am pretty confidence on the Catholic and Ortodox speculations on the tomb been on the Holy Sepulcre Church.. perhaps the tomb could have been earlier than the period of Jesus due to the fact that the actual owner of the Sepulcre was Joseph of Arimathea
The Bible says it was a new tomb.
@@chimeremnmaozioko17 John 19:41-42 The word new in greek it's kainós and It refers to the use as fresh.. not the date..
Just in case anyone wonders;
As they paid 2.000£ back in 1894 for the plot, that's just a bit more than 325.000 in today's money
it was probably a great investment
Yes, Jesus’ empty tomb in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is the actual location of His tomb, since Emperor Constantine ordered the building of the Church around Christ’s identified burial site.
All that you have to know is this:
“He is not here, He is risen!”
Imagine that, Protestants finding the “correct” tomb over a thousand and hundreds of years after the Catholics Orthodox and Coptic’s came to the same conclusion that the church of the holy sepulcher is the correct tomb. (Saying this as a former Baptist now catholic)
To be fair, the "Catholics, Orthodox, and Coptic" churches decided on the Holy Sepulchre when they were still one church and just carried on with the tradition after the splits.
@andrewsuryali8540 which frankly says a lot more. The oriental orthodox split happened in the 5th century. So Christians since the 5th century have believed that the sepulchre is the site of the tomb of Christ and then more than 1000 years later, people are saying they're wrong?
@@chimeremnmaozioko17 That wasn't the original context. The OP's context was that the Holy Sepulchre choice was somehow decided by three different ancient denominations separately. It wasn't. All three just continued the traditions from before they split. The fact that there are three separate churches now does not add any legitimacy. Ultimately, the legitimacy of the Holy Sepulchre is entirely based on what you said: That first determination by the ancient, original, Roman church.
Thank you.
The church of the holy seplecure would be cool to visit for the art and archetecture. However i understand the serene appeal of the garden tomb.
my sister in law visited the holy seplecure she said it was jarring and uncomfortable there were a number of different christian sects that all seemed to squabble over every square inch of the holy seplecure. According to her experience, there are some intense sectarian tensions at the holy seplecure.
A great example of this tension can be seen in the so-called “Immovable Ladder”. Because the Church of the Holy Sepulcher belongs equally to the six old-world churches that lay claim to it, no one can physically alter the building without all six churches agreeing to it. A mason accidentally left his ladder leaning against a wall in the 1700’s, and because moving the ladder would technically mean altering the building, it’s been sitting there ever since.
That is accurate. There is a concept at the church of status quo. The church building routinely enters disrepair because of disagreements over refurbishment processes as they would potentially disrupt the status quo.
This is true, not only there but everywhere in the vicinity of Jerusalem. So based upon these experiences, one has to question the validity of the theories that they propose.
There are hundreds of Christian’s denominations. No wonder they squabble over everything supposedly remaining from Jesus time. No wonder Christian’s feel uncomfortable rubbing their shoulders with « heretics ».
It is the same with the Mecca. Not all Muslims worship the same and authorities have to enforce strict rules to avoid troubles.
It is not easy to accept others.😊
@aluminumfox - Did your sister-in-law say if there is an entry fee at the Church of the Holy Seplecure? If so, a motive not to investigate other sites.
It's SORT of like going to Bunker Hill in Boston. You imagine a hill....NOT a neighborhood.
Moody was venerated as a neigh saint in the baptist church I grew up in.
I love your work so much
I keep seeing documentaries with the "real tomb of Jesus," as found under an apartment complex in Jerusalem. Open a normal-looking hatch and there it is. Apparently they found caskets in there with the names of the holy family (caskets just for the bones, so smaller than what we might think of). Does any of it hold water? I tend to watch these documentaries because I'm interested in the burial practices in question, but I'm pretty skeptical of its veracity overall
Orthodox checking in here; thank you for this video
Super interesting.
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I enjoyed the call out to that video. It was fun to see!
To me, personally, it doesn't really matter where He was laid to rest. He isn't there anymore. 😊
It’s amazing being able to see how it would have looked at the times of Jesus . Instead of a later built church. But no matter what it’s got to be so amazing to see these places in person
That beard really suits you. Both you and Clint from "Clint's Reptiles" have that in common, you are men from channels I follow that started to look a lot better when you decided to grow a beard.
Can you talk about the miracle of Holy Fire (or Holy Light) that happens in the Holy Sepulcher on the Saturday before the Orthodox Easter Sunday?
I've always suspected that the so called "holy sites" weren't validated by archeology or anything else, for that matter.Thanks for confirming my suspicions.Excellent video by the way.I wish all fundagelicals could watch it.But their biases would probably not let them accept the obvious conclusion.
Every Orthodox holy place in the ancient world is almost 2,000 years old
@@danfsteeplethis is incorrect. The holy sites including the one's accepted by the Orthodox where identified by St. Helena the mother of Constantine more then 300 years after the events and have no more historical backing than the Garden Tomb does.
@@rebeccaorman1823
“In AD 130, the Roman emperor Hadrian began the building of a Roman colony, the new city of Aelia Capitolina, on the site. Circa AD 135, he ordered that a cave containing a rock-cut tomb[c] be filled in to create a flat foundation for a temple dedicated to Jupiter or Venus.”
[c] Some Christian scholars have argued that this may have already been a site of veneration for the tomb of Jesus.[8][9][10] Joan E. Taylor posits that the tomb's location could have been preserved by the local collective memory of Christ's followers.[11]
[8] Murphy-O'Connor, Jerome (2010). "The Argument for the Holy Sepulchre". Revue Biblique.
[9] Taylor, Joan E. (1998). "Golgotha: A Reconsideration of the Evidence for the Sites of Jesus' Crucifixion and Burial". New Testament Studies. 44 (2): 180-203. doi:10.1017/S0028688500016465. S2CID 170536292.
[10] Allison, Dale (2021). The Resurrection of Jesus. Bloomsbury. p. 142.
[11] Strange, Bob (2017). The Secret of Christ's Tomb (television production). National Geographic.
@rebeccaorman1823 please stop. This is just your anti catholic bias speaking. Let it go.
@@cristinamz2137 I am not Catholic but I have absolutely no biases against them. What I am is a professionally trained historian who supports the truth. Everything that I said is true and can be shown to be true. As I said I support the truth and don't plan to stop because it makes you uncomfortable. You might consider why the truth bothers you so much that you are reduced to attacking other people.
The garden tomb is literally a bus depot.
😮Amazing! 😃
Wait a second. Dwight L. Moody? 🤔 Hmm so Dwight Moody -> The Moody Blues -> their fourth album is titled Every Good Boy Deserves Favour -> clearly a reference to Matthew 19:14 -> alternate tomb of Jesus confirmed to be the real deal, and confirmation Half-Life 3 is in the works. I mean the connections speak for themselves.
one old dad joke i heard was , hey do you have any historical site for visiting , no we don't have any right now but we are making one :}
Fascinating as usual
Expectations and ideals matter so much more than facts ever will. It's why my parents did such a good job raising their kids.
Archeology is my favorite wish I had studied it, but I'm too poor" degree.
I am likely getting Nebula. I'm definitely asking for a gift subscription this year if anyone asks me what I want as a present.
Historical evidence from that time period strongly suggests those condemned to execution by crucifixion were left on their crosses to decay (gruesome, I know), or at most, tossed into a open ditch.
You should have made this a combo with Milo Rossi of Miniminuteman. You could have done an episode of "Awful Archaeology" concerning Gordon and Robinson.
Thank you
I've seen one of these over in Japan when I was there in the military anime jebus.
Thanks!
🤷♀️ Your argument about Protestants, pilgrims & “evangelicals experiencing a feeling of awe, with deep personal and religious motivations” the same could be said for Catholics and their shrine sites. How would you describe how Catholics feel when visiting those sites?
Same same….
Also, who decided to call this dry backyard a garden?
Lol, i I didn't think you and Trent would do the same topic so close to each other.
The garden tomb is very peaceful and you can meditate there. Archaeologicalist have said the tomb was between the 4th to 10th century. The Church of Holy Sepulchre is beautiful on the inside and archeologists have open up the tomb and have found this one to be a single tomb from 1st century. After some recent excavations of the site they have found more tombs under the church. So both places are ok wherever you want to go. The more important part is Jesus is not there, no bones will ever be found because on 3rd day,he arose from the dead. No grave could hold our Lord and Savior.
That's not the problem. The problem is that it seems protestants made up their own holy site cause they didn't like the Catholics and Orthodox.
Evangelicals and Mormons on the same page tell me all I need to know. Other than that, nice video.
Same!
A brilliant example of how religion motivates people to override what their reason tells them must be true with what they want to be true. It's not just a textbook case of confirmation bias, but wholesale confirmation invention. The "scientific" in Scientific Protestantism is bitterly ironic indeed.
It's not only religion. It's any belief system someone adhetes adamantly to. So, it can also be atheism.
You said "historical and archeological evidence". May I ask, what is the distinction between the two?
I'm not an expert but I'd guess historical means old writings and archeological means old objects.
Yes, this. Textual evidence vs. material evidence. Though of course there is overlap with inscriptions, papyrus, etc.
Thank you
minor point: You misspelled 'prejudices'.
There is a full-size replica of the garden tomb in Cincinnati, Ohio (across the river in Covington, to be precise). Worth a visit if you're ever in the area.
Yea, it's cheaper to go to that fake tomb than to travel across the ocean to visit a different fake one.
@@cristinamz2137,😂😂😂
Please create a video about the Tibetan Bon Religion
That wouldn't be Charles George Gordon 'of Khartoum', would it?
(it looks like him).
I went to his school!
(the school he founded, not 'went to')
(it's a military boarding school in Surrey, England).
I like the garden tomb, for it keeps the modernsits, protestants etc. away.
In the end whichever hole it is really that kept the body I remember why do we search for the living amongst the dead?
But hey, the H. S. church is pretty nice and epic.
Interesting analysis. If you see this (tiny correction) could you correct your hymn lyric? "who died to save us all" CofE schooling, sorry. 🐣
0:46 No matter how grown up, how successful in life, or how low you have fallen, we all want to trumpet a goat horn at least once in our lives. For American God stuff in the Middle East, for Odin's long dead butt, for the massive horde of ancient warriors you lead into battle with, or just because doing it will make you feel more awesome than anyone will ever be!
Well you know what they say...shofar, shogood.
@@pencilpauli9442 American goat horn, my friend. That was kind of funny though.
SO INTERESTING.
I guess if someone wants to believe a place was the tomb, what do I care? I know historically and archaeologically that they 99.9% aren't, but I won't harsh on someone who does.
I always kinda wondered why there were competing Jesus Tombs and I should have realized that yet again it was Catholics vs Protestants at the center.
Assuming the crucifixion and burial story is historical, there are literally thousands of places it could have happened. Debating between these two misses the point.
Thanks 👍💐
I'd love to see your thoughts on where the tomb would be most likely to be if the gospels are generally correct.
He has another video on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. I think he says it's plausible as a location but is skeptical that tradition accurately recorded the site for 300 years without being written down.
The tomb dates to the iron age but that doesn't prove or disprove that it was only used during the iron age and in the later Roman age when it was renovated. Tombs can be reused, although the lack of any tradition associated with the Garden tomb implies it wasn't Jesus' tomb.
wait did the video thumbnail picture just change?
Wait a minute. Did you deliberately exclude the word "die" from the hymn? 11:43.
I'm a fan of "Time Team".
Do you know mr Kramer from Expedition Bible?
Funny how it's usually traditionalists who accuse evangelicals of being too rowdy during worship.
Did we see any mass or liturgy going on?