Microsimulation Model: I-215 at SR-201 Interchange
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2017
- Using VISSIM modeling software, I explored what projected future traffic growth will do to Utah's only urban cloverleaf. The verdict? Not good.
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
Perfect place for a 7 lane roundabout
Lol
My nightmare
@@irisheyes6363 Not that bad.
A roundabout is definetly less efficjent than a clover
Perfect place for a magic roundabout. (seriously google it its an America's worst nightmare)
This guy is playing Cities Skylines in real life!
IKR, Biffa woulda just make a roundabout.
@@dragonenergy4523 Turbine interchange could be quicker. Could it be?
Could also add electric rails over or under the road.
Shared vehicles, public transport, and micro-mobility could reduce traffic.
GPS apps could gamify efficient mobility by encouraging you to take your route when there is less traffic.
Self-driving vehicles could manage traffic as a swarm. It could reduce speed when there is enough capacity to save energy. Smart signs could do the same but not as efficiently.
Placing housing close to the workplace would help as well :). Yet that would mean workplaces would need to reduce emissions even further.
I can see Biffa doing lane mathematics
@@juntianwei9273 In my opinion he’s a bit of an idiot when it comes to urban traffic in C:S.
@@dragonenergy4523
I can’t stand roundabouts.
Very impressive for an academic project. This is more thoughtful and polished than some real world transportation studies I've seen.
Considering this is how seriously some people take cities skylines, that's disappointing to hear
Definitely, if you want to shock yourself, look at the city budget document from your local planning jurisdiction. I've seen one where the accounting was on a piece of napkin the size of an A4.
How do I turn on these ultralow settings in Cities Skylines?
What's funny is how games look so good -- it makes $10,000 professional traffic modeling software look kinda like garbage.
@@RoadGuyRob That's because traffic modeling software sells maybe 500 copies of that $10,000 software, while the videogame sells 6,000,000 copies averaging $50. So the traffic simulation company has 5 million of revenue to work with, while the video game company has 300 million. That's two orders of magnitude of difference.
@@machinerin151 Time to do a collab. So we can get better road drawing in Cities and they can get better graphics lol. Also they'd save a ton of money.
@@Distress. There are already mods that change the Traffic AI for a more real world simulation ala, random lane changes, differing speeds, etc
But the best thing is that you can change the simulation live and watch the effect of a change instantly, instead of waiting for the Traffic modeling software to calculate variables.
Both have pros, both have cons but the game has that instant effect that lets you iterate highways systems very rapidly.
@@HinanawiTenko But you can’t change some of the problems with the AI for example traffic can only switch lanes at the nodes.
This is amazingly similar to videos people have made on fixing traffic in Cities Skylines
I understood some of those words. It's nice to get a glimpse into the planning that goes into these things.
3 years old video but most of the comments are from a day ago
Yet this comment is 4 years ago!
Crazy
I’ve experienced a clover backup before during college move in week, what was terrifying is that it wasn’t so bad that it backed the interstate up because I reached it as the traffic was just starting. So instead of it being backed up I had to terrifyingly merge off with a bunch of cars merging in going close to normal speed and there were almost a ton of accidents
That's an extremely dangerous interchange, even when I was driving it regularly 15 years ago. A tractor trailer shouldn't attempt that cloverleaf above 15 MPH due to the tightness of the curves and the crowning of the road. I've seen many a truck rollover there.
Yes, roadways facilities should be designed for ALL users.
Which shows another flaw of the cloverleaf and all spiral ramps! They require traffic to slow down below normal speeds and then accelerate in order to properly merge. For a cloverleaf... imagine a truck climbing up hill on a ramp at no more than 15 and then only having the length of the overpass to weave into traffic which is traveling at 55 or faster if flowing properly. Directional flyovers or turbines are the way to go.
Yes exactly! They really shouldn't be considered or allowed unless they can be huge, but then that swallows up an enormous amount of land which is a stupid waste in a city.
Really love your passion for transportation Rob, your homework seems spot on!
Lovely Vissim, the software I use everyday for work. Definitely should talk about transportation simulation in a future video!
Wow... your cloverleaf simulation just showed what almost every interchange in Minneapolis St Paul looks like for at least 8 hours a day! Minnesota politicians should forced to watch that demo every day for the same amount of time the average Minnesotan spends sitting in traffic because of these relics that they have done nothing to improve since the 1960s
The real relic here is the belief that cars and cities mix.
I can't wait to see what 494/35W looks like when it's done. The fact that the busiest intersection in the state has been virtually unchanged for the last 60 years is crazy
I lived in Rochester for a year (and will be moving there permanently next month!) and whenever I’d go up to the twin cities it seemed like every interchange was a disaster. I’m pretty sure almost every single four-way interchange there is a cloverleaf.
Growing up in the Minneapolis area, I knew cloverleafs were bad but I never realized that other cities didn't use them
I couldnt believe how bad driving was in minneapolis when I was there. CLOVERS EVERYWHERE
So interesting to find this - I’ve driven these roads thousands of times, thought about that cloverleaf. I used to think it was great, then I began to see the bottlenecks in the design. I thought about flyovers but I never had the vision to see all the issues or solutions. I still drive these roads daily but see them differently now.
Many thanks for the video!
Don’t know how the algorithm brought me here
Nice analysis. I wish WisDOT had taken some of these things into consideration when they spent 1.7 BILLION on the Zoo Interchange. All it did was push backups to where the project ends and lanes go back down.
Funny, I was thinking about how glad I am that there isn't a lot of traffic in the cloverleaf in Eau Claire where 94 intersects with 53
My own city performed that exact modification on the I-235 US-54/400 interchange 2 years ago!
When I got my first motorcycle on my first ride on any interstate, just to try it out, I got spooked going through that cloverleaf ramp from 201-W to I-215 S and ran off into the grass, dropped the bike. Some passersby helped me pick it up, but I had to get a tow truck out there to jump start and refuel it. Nasty interchange, but now I can handle a cloverleaf on my now bigger bike.
I’m EXHAUSTED after watching this but it was just fun and informative. Gained a lot of appreciation for road designers.
7:14 can hear the laughter of confirmation in the background
I’m getting silence from about there onwards. Was there by any chance copyrighted music in the background?
lol, I can't. I literally can't. All silence 6:48 till the end.
Wow. If I have a perfect major, this would be it. I’m fascinated by traffic and can just observe it for hours. But this video is in a bit over my head...
Thanks for sharing this, so we can have a virtual seat at your planning presentation. I don't live anywhere near Utah, but I did enjoy hearing about the issues you presented on.
One thing I figured out while playing cities skylines is having the offramp of two diagonally opposite 3/4 turns spit out cars from the median of the highway and not the outer side. no weaving, takes a LOT of cars to clog it up. more ramps but i wouldn't think it would add too much cost compared to the entire price of building a cloverleaf
A good reason to introduce HOV lanes, dedicated bus or rail right of ways.
6:54 audio disappears?
That road with no railing at 4:09 reaaaaaaaaly peaked my anxiety
This is a presentation of traffic, bravo 👏
I remember driving all the loops one after the other for fun on this interchange when I was a teenager in the 90s.
Here in Richmond we have this where Chippenham parkway (VA rt 150) glides on top of Midlothian tnpk (VA route 60) and it is this shape, but ironically the mall that used to be next to this was called Cloverleaf mall lol... now there is the east coast's largest Kroger store
The thing that I've noticed over years of travelling dozens of cities in the US is how many just don't care at all. No improvements for decades in many of these cities. So it's shocking to find a few cities who actually try.
The I-40/240 junction in Memphis had multiple cloverleafs which were replaced with flyovers. I think it definitely helped congestion in that area.
Just add two more flyovers for a four stack. They work very well except for rush hour and even then they are superior to other remedies.
As far as the close by interchanges, they should be bypassed where needed. The freeway is not designed for traveling a couple of blocks. Just use the surface streets to get to the road with an interchange. Some of these interchanges should not have been built.
Seriously there should be no freeway access from a surface artery within a mile of a freeway junction like this one.
Yes.
This looks exactly like the 44-270 interchange in stl with the flyovers, partial cloverleaf, and braided off ramps.
Last year I saw a semi loaded with 3x4x8 foot haybales that flipped getting onto 201. Hay literally went everywhere, it was actually pretty cool
Reminds me of a book called The Goal which is about factories but actually applies to anything (or a simpler one called The Bottleneck Rules). It points out how fixing the bottleneck moves the bottleneck somewhere else. Also, improving anything except the bottleneck is a waste. Although roads are an interesting case because there are so many different start/end points and multiple routes.
You always trippin’ me out with all this info!
1:30 this kind of backup is so common in Southern California. I once saw a really bad accident where a pickup truck failed to notice that the exit ramp had backed up into the freeway travel lane, and went full speed into the back of a line of stopped vehicles.
395 and GW Pwky in Arlington, VA (by the Pentagon) is a good example of a cloverleaf that REALLY needs to go be replaced with something better, but probably can't because of how 395 is set up. There's so much merging traffic trying to squeeze onto 4 lanes one way, and a butt ton of off ramps going the other, it would be a total mess to try to redo, especially since there is no good detour route.
I find it interesting that California, Nevada and Utah each have an I-215.
I've heard there's a system behind which numbers are used, depending on whether its a belt route, loop, connector, spur, whatever.
ggwash.org/view/73804/decode-the-interstates-what-highway-numbers-actually-mean
Not sure why this is in my suggested vids, but hey interesting stuff. Reminds me of the 91/60/215 interchange in Riverside, CA.
I used to take the 201 exit to get off at redwood multiple times a week in a semi truck. I thought it was kinda fun
I hate how many cloverleafs the twin cities have
EVERY intersection of two highways is a cloverleaf
Every single one
Dangerous! Oklahoma has a bunch of them too. You always know you're on a really primitive road system when you run into one. The trucks merge at 20mph at best which really snarls everything. It's criminal to have designs this stupid, it kills people.
In Los Angeles cloverleafs have frontage roads for the 3/4 ramps. Not sure if they really do help since there's so much gridlock in LA but it seems to help.
North of that interchange is all hotels that service the airport. South is all residential. East is downtown and west is all industrial. It is a super sketchy interchange but people rarely use the clover, the only real issue is that redwood exit being so close to the onramp
This is why the salt lake valley needs more light rail and better bus routes. And all the trains and busses need to run 24/6. Yes sunday is not really a problem with traffic.
So... Rob is presenting this to the Utah DOT?
I wish. Fellow grad students.
Rob is still replying after 3 years. That’s someone who’s good at their job
I would hire you on the spot to Utah government if I had any power haha
@@scottanno8861 sorry bro if I had the power I’d make Rob the Transportaion Tsar for Hawai’i...
What's your thoughts on a diverging diamond like I-95 exit 109 in Port Wentworth Georgia?
This reminds me of what ARDOT did to the I-430/630 interchange, which as built in the 1970's was Central Arkansas' only full cloverleaf (albeit with C/D lanes on I-430 plus a surface street & stoplights in one direction) until flyovers and C/Ds on I-630 were added (none of the loop ramps were removed due to neighboring exits). It's not busy enough to require 14 lanes anywhere, though I'm currently battling anti-widening activists who stupidly think ANY improvement only makes things worse.
Atari Hard Drivin' but with Yaris's
Spaghetti junction is was built years ago 85 @ 285 in NE ATL Ga. The issue is 285 e to 85 N. Major bottlenecks daily. Which then slows 85 north coming from downtown ATL. What would be your fix here? Love the discussion.
If we're already using the vertical axis for space, can't we just move the cloverleaf loops' exits to the left lane?
Surely the solution is either a flyover cloverleaf like the German Autobahns or a Raised roundabout above the junction allowing through traffic to pass through
@Jay Smith sorry but Boring tunnels are boring 😉
@@edwardmiessner6502 and expensive
Look at i75 and i285 in Atlanta. Also i85 and i285 in Atlanta. These scenarios are everywhere here. They work and they don’t. 285’s issue is cars trying to get into this right lane too late merging creating traffic. Big traffic problems come when exits are right after 75 and 285’s interchange as well
I see the overhaul of just this interchange costing somewhere around $2billion.
Would road stacking help?
meanwhile I'm 587km away from the nearest McDonald's and it would take around 10 hours to get to it (in another country)... not so much due to traffic but because the average speed here is 60Km/h on single lane windy wobbly timey wimey Arctic roads.
this presents a very narrow approach to solving congestion issues, how do roads fit into the wider system of travel/commuter infrastructure?
Clover leafs could be slightly elongated to help where the getting on and getting off occurs
So increasing freeway lanes does not reduce congestion?
Hey Rob, Take a look at what ADOT is starting to work on in the Phoenix area with what they are calling the spine project.
Lol I thought this was a Regular Car Reviews video🤣
How many I-215s are there? This is the third one I know of including Las Vegas and San Bernardino
That’s all. There can be one I-215 in every state that I-15 passes though. There are three I-405s connected to the I-5, one in Southern California, one in Portland, OR, and one in Seattle, WA.
There’s no I-215 in Montana because I guess they don’t have enough traffic up there around Butte to justify a bypass off the I-15.
You're not allowing for lane change restrictions that would come into effect earlier on, before the cloverleaf.
There can be lane markings, signs, and painted island(s) that restrict lane changes right at the interchange, so that the cloverleaf isn't overwhelmed right at the centre, as shown in the simulation.
I would love to see his thoughts on I-270 in Denver, CO it’s always backed up and always wondered how would that be corrected
Since the bulk of the traffic is traveling thru I-215 and SR-201 wouldn't the solution be to elevate these two highways over the present cloverleaf?
What about two Lane roundabout instead of the clover with a protected /separate right turning lane with the outer lane for straight on and the inner lane for left,
Gotta admit that seven lanes of traffic each way is pretty over the top. Seems like maybe it's time to search for alternative solutions... maybe some bypass highways that let people avoid the cloverleaf section of town altogether. You really can't just keep accommodating more and more growth just by adding lanes to the same roads.
A traffic engineer has to be part psychologist
There’s a parclo interchange at the entrance to SLC airport
Okay, explain this to me, why have that braid, just when you exit the highway onto the highway ramp, just have the people going left use the left lane of the highway ramp and have a far shorter overpass and then just meet up with the next ramp on the left
How did I even make my way to this video... Good watch either way lol
No idea why this was recommended to me but nice
Salt lake county just needs more West to East freeways like in the area of 6200 S and 10400 S the hard part is it's really developed in that area.
"Just make a 4 lane roundabout." -Biffa "Pro Cities Skylines" player. "Just make a hyperloop" throw them across the city. -Elon Musk.
I take this everyday snd it’s not bad at all.
I think I found software I can use
edit: I thought this was literally Los Angeles
Minneapolis suburbs are almost all cloverleaf. 😥
Isn't the I-494/MN-5 and 35W interchange in Bloomington getting rid of the cloverfield?
Do like Texas and make express lanes?
I just seen Uta is finally talking about having frontrunner out to Tooele
Didn’t they extend it?
So... get rid of the exits so close to the cloverleaf. Change from a cloverleaf, to a turbine. Employ “lane mathematics”. Increase public transportation. Might be on to something. 🤪
I have to use 3 clover junctions to get to my classes. It backs up the highway for miles.
I listen to this, see the number and all that and just think... "Why don't you just build a railroad there?" If the traffic is mostly to the industries then cargo tram could solve it, and you could have multiple drop points for trucks outside the area so they would not need to get anywhere near the interchange.
I want to play City Skylines now.
Looks like my cities skylines with traffic. I guess I should stop cheating by turning on the unlimited money
Happens all the time in the Bay Area.
Public Transport.
People hated public transport before, but after Covid, nobody wants to go anywhere near it. I was just watching earlier Peter Zeihan explain how people are leaving cities who rely on public transport in huge numbers.
czcams.com/video/xyICg5OYXvM/video.html
@@BlueSky-hi2ib Pffft, just look at Europe man...
VISSIM isn't a great tool to model freeway weaving (esp high demand locations). I know this from experience. Still a great presentation and successful use of VISSIM to illustrate a potential outcome.
Have you found a way to model the second-order voluntary travel effects that result from flow-improvement? The estimation of exponential growth with a fixed-exponent is the assumption that has failed every practical test, and frankly I’m tired of Civil Engineers acting astonished every time it happens.
why not braid the clover ramps? that also eliminates weaving. or maybe cd roads. a little remedy stuff and ramp braiding, and they are not as bad as you think. or try my new idea, the clovertrumpet. instead of the flyover it has a trumpet interchange loop ramp. no weaving, and looks like a cloverleaf in a sense. but these are nightmare for truckers probably.
The simulation won't be satisfied until everything is a road
This is why we should enter on the right and exit on the left
but the left lane is for passing?
@@Aquatarkus96 when 3 or 4 lane highways exist you can have the right be for cruising middle for passing and left for exiting. Especially when you create merge sections and exilt slips
@@thesheq5023 You want incoming semis to merge directly onto the fast lane? Please, no.
@@claydenlinger2043 it’s not. You enter a merge lane merge into the slower lane, the middle is for faster traffic, and the left is the exit.
Just spend the hundreds of millions on passenger rail. You can't pave your way out of traffic jams.
exactly what i was thinking
That's true, there has to be a balance between car traffic and public transport
why not just build a bypass at this point or just scrap the whole thing and redesign a whole new system in that area..
I did some of the survey work on the 215 reconstruct job of 2016-2017. That freeway is terrible and will always be terrible.
I'm glad you guys fixed it, it improved it a lot! But why do you say that? Why will it always be so terrible?
@@BlueSky-hi2ib it could be better with eminent domain. there's just not a lot of room in areas. the clover at i215 and 201 is terrible to merge.
@@fathan16 Ohh I see what you mean, they're just hemmed in with nowhere to go.
Increasing the number of lanes usually, and ironically, increases traffic.
Increases volume, not necessarily traffic*
It's an important distinction. In some places the new network can handle the increased volume, so wait times go down. In others it can't and wai times go up. Sometimes they stay the same. But you can't really just look at a proposal and know which it's going to be, this stuff is way too hard.
@@cinquine1 It is well known that increasing the number of lanes attracts more traffic, as people think there's going to be more space for everyone.
There's many reports and even CZcams videos explaining this phenomenon. It's quite interesting.
@@CityWhisperer Yes, it's well known that this _sometimes_ happens, but traffic flow engineering is hideously complicated. It doesn't happen in every scenario, which is why every proposed project needs to be evaluated independently.
I never knew cloverleafs were so bad.
Utah has 1 cloverleaf while Minnesota has around 30 of them
Que 1604 and I-10 in San antonio
Why not replace it with one of those SPEEEENy interchanges that look like a turbine? (I forget what they're called...)
Audio went away
How did the algorithm bring me here...