State Of The Union: The Air France-KLM Group In 2023
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- čas přidán 5. 02. 2023
- In 2004 Air France and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines joined forces to become the Air France-KLM Group (AF-KLM). With the two historic airlines' fleets and operations combined, the conglomerate has become one of the largest European airline groups along with Lufthansa Group, IAG, and Ryanair.
In its nearly two decades of existence, the partnership hasn't always been smooth - and the two airlines still have their differences, despite cooperating quite closely. Today, we examine the state of Air France-KLM, and what the future holds for the two main parts of this group.
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It would have been worth mentioning regarding "the friction between the two airlines" that AF is the dominant partner size wise whilst KLM is performing much better and makes more net profit with a considerable smaller turnover. KLM and their stakeholders want to keep influence on where their money is going.
Fake news. AF is not only dominant but also much more profitable than KLM, who was actually losing money, until recently. You clearly havent red a financial report of the group in your life!
The friction was because the NL Govt increased its shares to keep control over the group, in a rather unfriendly way.
Check the post COVID performance figures and you will see that what you said is unequivocally no longer true. 🎉
As someone who has flown both KLM and Air France on a regular basis, I have always had a preference for KLM. KLM offers better connections and the cabin crew is nicer. I also had multiple occassions where the AF crew just kept speaking French to me, even when I told them I don’t speak nor understand French.
that is actually the most french behavior they could do haha
I am a big KLM Fan. All my flights with them were great and the crew was always amazing.🤩
KLM for me, flew with them in December 2020, got a free meal in Economy Class within Europe and had a great experience! Especially after I had to travel earlier due to border closures and BA and LH Group didn't provide competitive prices for that day.
Transfers at CDG are an utter nightmare. Did a Schengen to Non-Schengen transfer and I walked a good 3 miles in the process. AMS as a hub airport is so much better laid out and organised than CDG T2 in my experience
I just flew with them both last month. Being an American, with “great”(sarcastic) airlines, I loved both KLM and AF. I felt the service was way better on KLM but food was better on AF. Can’t hate KLM for Schiphol but that airport needs some work compared to CDG. I like them both very well with KLM having a slightly better charm than AF.
The mess at Schiphol is understandable. As a Dutch person myself, in the news we heard a lot about personel shortages at the airport which led to many congestions. For years there have also been discussions about expanding Schiphol to increase the desperate capacity at the busy airport.
Schiphol Airport is currently in a big renovation cycle. The concourses D, E, F and G has gotten a makeover in 2018-2021 and so has terminal 1 and 2. At next year newly built concourse A will be ready. Concourse B and C both are planned to be renewed in the next decade. Also a new terminal between concourse B and A will probably be built in the next decade. So the planning of the buildings is better than the planning of personnel. The shortages in that department are not solved yet this holiday season. So long waiting times and lines are forecast for passengers.
I am from Bremen, Germany and I most of the time fly with KLM because Amsterdam is the closest main Hub and KLM offers best connections. Better to Lufthansa. But it also happens that I connected via Paris CDG before. But AMS is most common.
Just depends on where you're trying to go which airport makes the most sense.
Love KLM mostly because of their crew, who are almost always fantastic. Their meals can be a bit odd, but they always have something in there that is new but delicious. I’ve only flown Air France once, and it was lovely and would fly them again, but KLM will always be my #1 with Air France perhaps #2 for now…
As a FB platinum member I have flown both of them often. I used to love KLM a lot mostly because of the cheerful crews. Over the years I find the KLM product declining and AF improving a lot. AF is supposed to have the premium product of the two and I think it shows. Polite and correct service, elegant design, very good food and much more premium wine selection (€30 at AF vs €10 at KLM wines in business class), with even champagne in long haul economy class. I get why KLM is more profitable; on intercontinental economy they even got rid of the pillows
Haven't flown on AF, but I have flown KL, and it was a good experience!
I think a major point that was missed by you, especially regarding friction, is that despite AF being the larger of the two and bringing in the most revenue, KLM is responsible for the larger share of profits. The difference in cost-efficiency is also part of the reason they bump heads as KLM is more frugal and profitable whereas AF is known to splurge more, especially on their pilots and their CEO's compensation.
KLM for the last 20 years. I travel between the US and Europe several times a year, and never ever have had any issues with KLM and Schipol, even during the pandemic or lately when most of the big hub airports are understaffed. The French have a history of sudden employee strikes and for that reputation many are avoiding AF whenever time is of the essence. Heard it numerous times.
Love the KLM blue. Nice video. Keep up the good work.
AF is my choice! I have found KLM to be a frugal service. Both are highly professional, but the soft product clearly delineates a meaningful memorable experience on AF to Mehhh with KLM. My takeaway having flown both enough times to make that bold comment. I do, however, enjoy AMS as a transit hub! I will opt-out of AMS for transit until their return to a normal passenger flow thru their passport control/security/customs organization. For the record, I am a loyal SkyTeam Frequent Flier.
Before the pandemic, there was a lot of resentment between AF and KLM. Comparatively, KLM always made more profit than the larger AF. There are also cultural differences, KLM is run as a commercial company and AF more as a state company.
But AF and KLM are now integrating better and better. KLM's entire long-haul fleet (31x777s/21x787s) is being modernized with the new premium economy and business class (with sliding doors). So AF and KLM both offer the same seats in eco, premium and business class (1-2-1).
I think you are missing the most important point...KLM is profitable and AF is not. This is in part cause of the biggest tensions in the group as KL subsidises AF
Understandable since the Dutch also have a big tradition and history in trading and business ;)
UNTRUE
As a Dutch person, this was an interesting video to watch. I have personally never flown KLM before, despite having had many flight vacations. I do think the little ceramic houses from Delft are an awesome addition since I am also from Delft myself and I believe it's a great way to represent a part of our culture through the airline.
Pluses and minuses for both. I recently flew YYZ/AMS/CPT on KLM and CPT/CDG/YYZ on AF. Interestingly first leg of each on trip was on a 787 and second leg on the 777. KLM overall was good, liked the 787 seat was comfortable, had a decent couple of hours of sleep. The transit in AMS was good, except there were no showers available in their business class lounge. I hated the seats on KLM 777 with the 2-2-2 configuration.
On the inbound I like the AF 787 great seat. Transit in CDG was chaotic, we landed in concourse M and we leaving from concourse K. At least I was able to grab a shower. I think the food on AF was slightly better
You were on the the 777-200ER on KLM which is an old interior they have not upgraded.
nice vid!
I fly either IAD-DXB, cattle class. AF has free-flowing champagne on board, trolley dollies serving more complimentary champagne in the lounge. KL has great Cape wine, but made me special order and pay extra for celebratory champagne. Shopping at CDG gives me 2024 Olympics gear. Shopping at AMS gives me cheese bundles. I do prefer the AF 777 over the KL 787. CDG 2E can be nerve-wracking when Halls K, L, and M (funny letters) have long security lines.
Transavia doesn’t operate from The Hague. RTM stands for Rotterdam The Hague Airport but is actually based in the city of Rotterdam, with The Hague only being 20 kilometers away from the airport, hence the name.
I fly both airlines often, and as the video correctly points out, the treatment I get as a Flying Blue platinum is much better with Air France than with KLM, orders of magnitude better. So, if I have a choice, I always pick AF, and do not care much about the little houses (they end up as clutter at home anyway).
I flew KLM since 1967 b/w Australia & the Netherlands with KLM, and I love it and Emirates b/w Melbourne (Australia) & Amsterdam (The Netherlands) and I still prefer KLM and Amsterdam Schiphol Airport. Flew other airlines too, BUT KLM and Amsterdam Schiphol airport are still my favorites. Emirates airlines because of the A380 aircraft (business class).
His accent is just amazing!
English???
@@michaeldunham3385 French names
Maybe bc I'm French - and so a bit too patriotic - but I prefer flying AF. I've always had great experiences with them, the crew is always nice and accommodating! The few times I flew with KLM, their lounges were crowded like I've never seen, the only thing that was good was the pleasant attitude of their crew, if it weren't for that, I find KLM a rather classic airline!
KLM for me, loved their 747s kombis.
just returned from a trip where we flew out on AF and back on KLM. KLM was a much better experience. Paris CDG and AF felt like a LCC had bought out a flag carrier, AMS Schiphol and KLM felt like a standard modern flag carrier. with AF we were on a 1 year old A350, on KLM it was an 18 years old 777-200, and the older 777 was much more comfortable due to how KLM has chosen their interiors.
I like both. In fact, Air France has better food, but KLM has the amazing Embraer E2. So, I just can say that I'm lucky to be member of FlyingBlue 🙂
How they possibly make comparisons with Ryanair?
That amused me as well. 😏
FR is miles better !!
i like both AF & KLM, but undoubtedly AF has a slightly better catering than KLM for the long haul international flights, so it's AF for me!
Wow. My experience couldn't be more different! The AF catering was absolutely dreadful :O
KLM for me, we fly from LAX to AMS and transfer to a flight to NCL (Newcastle UK) a quick transfer and good connecting flights. The business lounge in AMS is a great place to relax and have a snack. It even has an outside observation deck, a big plus for AV geeks like me.
They are both great. The food is definitely better at AF but you get a free meal with both airlines even if it’s just an 1,5 hours flight. So no complaining there
The wine and food is far superior on AF and in the lounges. The business class experience with AF feels just that bit more special but KLM have it licked with more services to the UK and a better airport in schipol rather than the dreadful stupidly laid out CDG!
Please do JAL Fleet deep dive
They do a really good job.
As a lifetime Delta Diamond Medallion and 6 Million miler I cross the pond quite often. I AVOID AF, for 2 reasons. The first is that CDG airport is a horror show for connections, as compared to AMS. Connecting in AMS is rarely a problem as it is not as affected by the issues as noted in this video.Second, I find the French staff somewhat arrogant and aloof (I speak Quebec French, which does not help the matter). AF reservations has annoyed me on several occasions and even the Delta Diamond line could not help. I was stuck in the centre seat in business class of their 2-3-2 B777 configuration (horrible, especially when paying for that cabin) , even though other empty seats were available. They told me effectively to go away and there was nothing that they could do. KLM has always risen to the occasion, even fixing things "at the gate" with no questions asked when a seat issue arose. The lounges are fine -- I love the 52 lounge at AMS and visit quite often. The AF lounge in concourse "L" at CDG is nice, but not as convenient to visit as the 52 (and associate Schengen lounge) at AMS. I have nearly 30 of the Delft houses now and the number will continue to increase! KLM (and sometimes Delta) for me across the Atlantic!
I recently flew on KLM back from NYC. I liked it. Although I prefer Air France because the food is better
Flew many times with KLM on intercontinental flights. So preference goes to them now. This month I'll fly with KLM to CDG and continue with AirFrance. Flight back home will be with KLM, so I'll get a good comparison for both airlines.
As a dutch citizen living in Brazil, definitely KLM - much easygoing and less formal. besides the fact that AF airport staff is very very hard to deal with (specially at CDG), and that Schiphol is much easier to deal with connecting flights, when compared to CDG (always a nightmare).
Welp, as a Flying Blue Platinum member: KLM is better in-flight, crew is nicer, get more food. But the lounges? CrownLounge 25 in AMS is... its a university canteen. The AF lounges on the other hand: amazing. the food is so good and there is so much, also you can take stuff out with you!
So, as a tip: in CDG T2F try to get the special eclairs that will only be given out by hand and not at the buffet
Isn't it hit and miss with the AF lounges? We are gonna be at the 2E-K lounge later this year and according to some reports it can get really crowded to a degree that you can't even find available seating and you can scrape the small remainings from the bottom of the food container which won't be refilled.
Air France should eventually replace their oldest 777-300ERs in service with an order of 20 777-9s and 12 A350-1000s. The 777-9 can be used on premium and cargo routes then the A350-1000 can be used on secondary routes.
Won't happen. All of their oldest 777-300ER currently are receiving a brand new cabin.
Hi 👋 Thanks for the great video !
Interesting insights on the French vs Dutch government battle
What do you think of CMA-CGM who purchased nearly 10% on the stocks last year ?
Regards
The purchased of CMA-CGM was their biggest mistake. CMA did this move in order to develop their air cargo wing, to offer to their clients a complet service. The deal is: CMA group enters the AFKLM's capital and add its own planes (4 A332F + 4 777F) and AFKLM shares its technic, logistic and plateforms helping CMA CGM Air Cargo to develop faster - bc AFKLM has everything in place already -. But, with this agreement, CMA CGM AC will never be able to free itself from AFKLM since they lend their systems, preventing CMA to develop one of its own. I think CMA should have waited a bit to improve and create its systems and not agreeing to share those of AFKLM, they already have the clients with their shipping wing, they didn't the little/poor experience of AFKLM - we can agree that Cargo is not something their fond of -.
This video is oversimplified, I'm afraid. I have flown with both KLM as well as Air France many times, and I am well aware of the latest from AF-KLM... The KLM branch has, since the merger with AF, ALWAYS been the most profitable of the 2 companies, by far.
The friction between the 2 companies stems from that. At the beginning of the merger, it was hard to witness and to accept for the Dutch, that when KLM was pushing hard to maximize the group profits, that the French were inflating their OPEX budget spending as if there was no tomorrow. When the group CEO later also intended to cancel a large number of (long-haul) flights from Schiphol and redirect these flights to AF from Paris, the Dutch government stepped in and increased its share in AF-KLM as a warning to the AF-KLM management team. UNDER NO circumstances will the Dutch government ever allow Schiphol to lose destinations to Paris. Schiphol and its large number of Worldwide destinations are a USP for the entire Dutch economy and many international companies choose Amsterdam as its EU-HQs or EU-location for it.
I would classify the 2 companies not as one being better or worse than the other, but I would describe Air France as more conservative than KLM, while KLM feels young and funky. The KLM cabin crew, IMO, is much more personable than the AF crew. I agree that Air France has a much better premium offering than KLM, though.
The Issue I have with AFKLM is that they fly to a lot of destinations but they neglect one major part of the world. Australia. As a Dutchman it would be great to experience KLM on long flights back to Europe possibly through Asia
You can usually fly through codeshares with other airlines when flying to Europe through Asia
➡ Korean Air
Coming from the old days of Northwest Airlines. It will always be KLM. KLM is my preferred airline when traveling to Europe.
AF for sure
Definitely KLM.
Professional very personal and friendly service. Would always fly KLM if I had the choice.
Hard question… airfrance for their food and klm for the convenience schipol is very close from my house
air france la best
I've never flown with Air France. I flew to Kenya with KLM and the plane's interior was outdated compared to the return journey with Kenya Airways at the time. I'm coeliac so if air France have no issues with providing safe, gluten free food then I'd expect their food to be top class judging by this video.
It's always possible to preorder specific menu before flying AF, for medical or religious reasons
@ericalexandre2983 good to know. Thanks 😁
Prefer KLM. They have a better safety record.
And Air France had a bad incident where their pilots got into a fist fight in August 2022.
KLM 4805 and Cityhopper 433: Allow us to introduce ourselves
@@v12ts.gaming that was in 1994....
I love both airlines but I’ve only flown on Airfrance but I want to fly on KLM
KLM deserves more attention. Or actually, both should. They should be working together but not focusing on one only.
They should devorce!
@@jouniairplanevideos The Dutch&French goverment have close connections, as well as the two airliners.
KLM Always. Oldest operating airline in the world, says enough.
I have become a big fan of KLM in recent years
@1:46 RTM = Rotterdam airport; not The Hague 😉
Actually: It's called Rotterdam The Hague Airport, so he isn't completely wrong.
@@SaMartok ah, I missed that renaming. It was originally just Rotterdam Airport. Hence RTM
The airport is located in Rotterdam. The city of The Hague (some 20 km away) paid to put its name in the airport's name.
These cities are so closely linked together with the Hague having a huge political, and Rotterdam economic power that they should share the name. On a world scale these cities are mere villages anyway. A lot of metropolitan areas in the world would encompass both
As mentioned in the video (around 2:45), when booking a flight it's pretty much as if AF and KLM were the same company, and it's easy to end up with part of your trip flown by one and the rest by the other. So I just use both. Don't have a real preference for one of the other, except that for my trips so far, KLM has generally (but not always) been cheaper while also using way more outdated aircrafts. So for me it's more a matter of price and aircraft types.
Which reminds me, twice KLM replaced my flight with a wet-leased flight from German Airways, something I didn't appreciate much. It was on one of these flights that I encountered the rudest flight attendant I've met so far. And both these flights were also over 1h late...
Last but not least, the most annoying element of the group is the horrible Transavia (it's actually "3 airlines 1 group", not just 2 airlines), which tends to be used to fully replace, instead of complementing, routes previously operated in much more comfortable conditions by either AF or KLM.
I wonder why KLM hasnt left the partnership.
It hasn't got the scale to be competitive on its own.
They realistically don't have a choice to. That bed was made a long time ago.
@@kevonvideo they could, KLM has better profit!!
@@jouniairplanevideos They do have better profits, but they would lose major bargaining power across the board. And connecting AF-pax. So costs would go up and passengers numbers would go down without AF. A KLM-sized airline cannot operate independently in highly competitive Europe.
@@kevonvideo are you sure, KLM has better routes as af. KLM flies towards Canada and the USA for ages. They fly towards Asia for ages. So basically KLM has more customers than af cause it flies towards those contents for a long time. They still do wich means something right?! Af want some precious slots on A+ airports, but KLM has more of those😂
8:06, it’s not even close
Hell yes give me the houses I’ll take a bag of chips and the mini house lol
Isn't lumping AF-KLM with Ryanair a lot like lumping Delta with Spirit? 😂
Air France all the way. I have traveled on both carriers on their premium cabins and my personal experience with cuisine and crew of Air France is un matched. KLM was okay.
isnt it klm, airfrance and transavia....
Absolutely i likes KLM
I admit I am a platinum member on AF, so my very biased preference is AF… I flew KLM to SA, and the experience wasn’t good.
KLM every year Montreal to Amsterdam
As being French I prefer Air France but I did travel with KLM to the Cape and with Transavia to Portugal and it was OK. I'd like to see TAP integrating the group.
It is typical French attitude that you should prefer AF because you are Frenchman! Not being able to asses something for its own merits. Simply nationalistic motives. How narrow minded can a nation be.
KLM ofcourse!!
I chose neither because I’m too broke to fly with them (transavia doesn’t fly here)
AF is a very competent airline though let down by a dreadful airport (CDG) . Long walkways , in fact you feel that you have walked to your end destination by the time you get to the gate .
KLM is my favorit. ❤️
KLM
KLM are by far better for service. Plus, who doesn't love the friendly Dutch accent?
Alwass KLM
When i checked the price of a ticket from Lyon to Manila with KLM for 4 people my phone almost exploded for how high the prices were, i mean you could buy a cheaper flights to manila with f*cking Emirates
My business class experience on both airlines were totally different. Air France A380 had bad seats, bad food with no choice (in 3rd row!) and bad service. KLM 787 was a delight in terms of seat, food and service. I only fly Air France when necessary; I would love to fly KLM again.
I work for the KLM and these comments warm my heart. Love reading about these positive experiences 💙🛩️
I hate this alliance. Because of this there are very few direct AF flights from Paris to Asia or Afrika. Recentli we too KLM for Paris-Amsterdam-Zanzibar and back from Kilimanjaro. For Amsterdam -Zanzibar 2 hours delay because the pilots figured out on the runvay that the plane could not take off and had to be fixed. The return flight took 2 days because of the fals rumours in Daar es Salam. And let's not talk about the "wooden" seats on the triple seven plane. Horrible experience.
People who complain that the plane doesn't fly because a technical problem has been found just before departure really make me scratch my head. It's just normal that technical issues might happen. And no, it's not useful to be on schedule if it means to fly on a plane that is not airworthy.
KLM Definitely. Most modern airline nowadays everything is done via the KLM app and super quick. Quicker than any other airline I can think of…
KLM definitely. Professional and friendly crews
Compared to French people it's understandable that the Dutch crew are way more friendly X)
@@Imperial_stroopwafel have you ever flew with AF ?
Air France définitely🇫🇷💪
Not all French people are unfriendly and cold!!
KLM all the way
I prefer KLM
lousy customer service and a nightmare frequent flyer program.
So far, they erased three of my flights (after payment, confirmation, and without any notification) and frequent flyer miles worth another European flight. Their credit card travel insurance didn't cover my flight delays or cancellations. What a failure!
And of course you naturally don't say which
@@michaeldunham3385 I flew on hundreds of airplanes on both airlines. Cancellations were at both airlines. The frequent flyer program "Flying Blue" is for both airlines. AMS has been a nightmare during the past year (more or less). Air France's hub at CDG is frequently listed as the worst airport in Europe. On average, AF lost/damaged 7 out of 10 bags with my international transfers. I have never been on any KLM 787 that hasn't had a broken seat, window, flight enternainment, or something similar.
Would you like more details?
I flew KLM and air France just a few weeks ago. KLM were amazing (with the exception of one screw up, which they made up for with an offer of either a refund or free business class upgrade on the whole trip), but air France were absolutely dire. The food on AF was atrocious, as was the service, the aircraft, the punctuality, even the flying itself! So uncomfortable in just about every way.
My experience with KLM is that even their worst seat is lightyears better than the best AF seat.
The best AF seat is in first class, I'm sure it's much better than the economy seat with KLM.
Of course KLM this the food in KLM world business class is better than the food in AirFrance business class; this is because KLM works with several star chefs from renowned restaurants; the food at Airfrance always tastes the same sour and tasteless in business class.
In addition, the KLM staff is super friendly to all its guests, something you do not easily experience at AirFrance where French arrogance and rudeness and unfriendliness is more the norm; in addition, KLM has a better wine selection than AirFrance including many Italian wines. In addition I never feel safe once I have to fly Airfrance this the staff speaks poor English and even do the fly sefaty in French and refuse to repeat it in English.
In addition, with KLM I get the familiar houses that you don't get with AirFrance.
Flying to and from the Netherlands is done with a blue swan
Both are pretty bad in Economy. The food is meager and not tasty. I would pick KLM though because Schipol is far superior to CDG airport. CDG is terrible.
These European mergers of the flag carriers are always suboptimal economically with all the goverment ownership stakes and the desire to maintain separate brands.
True, but as a Dutchie I'm glad Dutch interests are protected. Would hate to see Schiphol transition from mainport to regional airport in favor of strengthening CDG for the sake of efficiency. Even if it means AF-KLM operates suboptimally.
@@kevonvideo That was never really at risk. AMS is the largest connecting hub in Europe so it wasn't going anyway.
@@johniii8147 That's a little naive. The only reason Schiphol still is a mainport after all these years is that its (or rather KLMs) interests are protected, at least for now. How economically optimal do you think it is to have two major hubs just a few hundred kilometers from each other?
KLM’s crew are it’s BEST asset. I would choose KLM 💯
Definitely AF !
Yes!!
PLEASE START FLYING FROM CDG TO ATQ AMRITSAR INDIA ON DAILY WITH A321 .
Flights to north Africa does not include having a meal at all. Air France's clients in Africa are poorly treated due to French racism and view of superiority.
les repas de air france sont toujours pareil en économie
Its Trans-(A)- via NOT Trans-(R)-via please get your English correct !
Air France had several severe safety problems with pilots last year, so I prefer KLM.
Klm want more focus than air France they also shutdowned martin air after merge
Martin still exists! As a cargo airline
@@jouniairplanevideos yes but passenger service not anymore
Champagne is for sissies, Gin is for real men and women! 😎🇳🇱
I'm about to fly from the US in my first Dreamliner - 10 with the oldest airline in existence (& still operating with its own name) in business class to AMS & DXB.
Yay for me 👏🏽🎉
Nevermind... I'm just being a jerk. Do you think I wouldn't sip the finest bubbly in a La Premiere / Air France? 🇫🇷 👌🏼
Maybe next time. Keep a cork in it until I get there!
Hey, we're all red white and blue around here🇺🇲
KLM
KLM
KLM
KLM