Just About Sailing February 2019 - Installing a Chinese Diesel Heater, Pt 1 Where to put it
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- čas přidán 28. 01. 2019
- This is the first part of the installation of a Chinese Diesel Heater. It became clear that there wasn't an obvious place to mount the heater in a small sailboat. I have a look at three different options all with advantages and disadvantages. So which one did I choose? Well, I haven't totally decided yet.
Now these things have suddenly become easily available at a much more appealing price we know of quite a few people fitting one. Consequently we have been giving it some consideration ourselves... so I'm glad your doing it first :-) Thanks for sharing, have fun
Famous last words...but I think the actual installation process will be quite straightforward. Every boat is so different in its layout. And the devil really is in the detail. But the price of these units is astonishing - and I went for one of the expensive ones at less than £160. I need to order some marine grade bits to complete it, but it will be interesting to see just how effective it is.
But having said that... I am a known wimp when it comes to keeping warm - I don't think I have ever seen a bit of cold weather get in the way of your sailing adventures ;)
Just fitted one to my campervan,wish I’d done it sooner....powered it up tonight the temp outside the van is -3 and I was sat in the van at 22 degrees ticking over very happily.Fantastic bit of kit!!!
Excellent. That's good to hear. I knew someone who had the Eberspacher one on his yacht which was larger than mine and I was very jealous of how warm he could make his boat. I am hoping it will help with the condensation as well - we shall see. Cheers
We're considering heating for our Westerly Centaur so watching this with great interest. Look forward to the next episode. Gary & Dawn
Gary & Dawn, I'm delighted that there seem to be so many people out there doing the same thing. But slightly worried at the same time that the pressure is on for me to get this right. I was hoping to finish this project this weekend, but am still waiting on a few parts to arrive. I think the low cost of these heaters into the market has made a lot of people consider them as an option. I am sure that there are a lot of Centaur owners who would be interested to find out how you get on. Cheers, Paul.
Oh no, I'm still in January on this part of the planet!
Looking forward to seeing how you get on with this as I've been looking into fitting a heater.
I hated squeezing past the engine on my old Mirage 28 but consider that option three is your best use of space. Filling the "day tank" would be fun! I did read somewhere that feeding the heater from the main tank was not a good idea due to pressure but need to research that a bit more. Thankfully, the cockpit locker is like a tardis on my Gib'Sea.
Sláinte
Sandy
Months were never my strong point.
I couldn't have squeezed behind the engine wit the old Yanmar YSE12. Apart from anything else there were some control cables stretched across the entrance/hatch. Also, it was disgustingly dirty and not a nice place to be. The whole engine bay was cleaned out and repainted when the Beta went in. As you can probably notice, it is now the cleanest part of the boat.
I am leaning towards some sort of day tank arrangement. Not fully decided on that one yet.
Lots of people have mentioned that they are looking at fitting a heater - maybe I should have waited a bit.
Cheers
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 I have a bit of time as it is a few years before I head off and follow @Patrick Laine north to Shetland and Faroe.
Hi Paul, Again a great video, the effort that you put in is brilliant. I get carried away with the jobs and forget to turn the camera on or the microphone which is now my new trick. Anyway a little feedback on your heating system. First why did I not know of Chinese Diesel heaters, I bought a Eberspacher D4 diesel heater and didn’t get much change out of £1800. It is 4 watt and it did come with everything I needed and exact instruction instructions on how to fit it to my Moody 34 perfectly as they used to fit them in the moody factory back in the day. This was like hearing about purple bricks just after you sold your house. You know what I mean. Anyway, here is a couple of pointers and ideas for you.
Keep your heater hose as short as possible. I noticed your heat outlet hose isn’t lagged just like my Eberspacher isn’t. To be honest it looks exactly the same hose. DAME..! Webasto heat out let hose is lagged, something to think about, also I was told if you can put the heater out let as low as possible as heat rises. Along with point it down the length of the boat if you can as you will get better circulation.
Your exhaust can come out the side of the boat as long as it is 300mm from the water line and you put the U-bend in. I did exactly that and I have had no problems. So no need to send the exhaust all the way to the aft of the boat.
You second option (the third one you showed us) look good but does it really need to go that far aft. You seemed to have plenty of room to bring it forward. This will keep your heat outlet hose shorter.
I get my air for my heater from low down in the aft cabin corridor well away from my heated air outlet this means that the air recirculates and the air that is being reheated is already slightly warmer than the air outside. This meaning the boat heats up quicker and the heater doesn’t work so hard. The heater can only heat the air so much so if its cold coming in, it won’t be as hot coming out. That’s my theory anyway.
Can’t wait to see what you do. They make such a difference.
Cheers John, very useful. Who knows, you might have the last laugh as your Eberspacher carries on while all our Chinese lookalikes give up the ghost. I only got confidence after seeing loads of van installation on CZcams ad then RAN sailing fitted one in Alaska.
I can bring the heater a bit forward, and I do intend to lag the heat outlet hose (a few people have mentioned this). I guess it is a balance between long heater hose vs long exhaust.
I can see the sense in taking the air from the rear cabin corridor - that's almost like being outside.
I do have a much smaller boat than yours - Serenity is only 22ft at the waterline despite being a 28ft boat.
And if I have the Habitent up, the air will be coming from inside that anyway.
I am really looking forward to getting it up and running.
I still forget to turn the microphone on - I do it all the time. Cheers.
If I'm not mistaken I think the one in RAN is a Planar wich is a Russian design in wich the critical parts ( pump - fan - heatplug ) are from German manufacturers or so I've been reading on internet.They cost between 500 and 600 pounds but have an excellent reputation.If you google : YBW forum and do a search there you'll find lost of information about them and the Chinese ones too.@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114
Option 2 looks the best as you say. Lots of space around the heater, no problems with the unit getting wet from wet ropes or suchlike if it was in a locker. Pipe runs relatively short and heat directed to a good spot at base of companionway. I guess if you wanted to add an outlet farther forward you could use the T and take a pipe round the side to forward cabin or a wet locker.
Thanks. Yes, this is pretty much the one I will go for. Also, after crawling around in confined spaces for a while - this is by far the easiest for the actual install. Hopefully I can get it sorted in one day as soon as the parts (ducting, exhaust etc) arrive. Thanks for watching and commenting.
As you noted Paul, the exhaust air is very hot. My Webasto exhausts through the starboard side of the boat (very high), not the stern. Keep in mind the impact of heat discharge on wind vane or dinghy if you will hang one there. I agree with Paul Fox about the noise these make. Keep it as far away from where you will sleep as possible. Good luck with the install.
Cheers Patrick. The exhaust is probably the most tricky bit. I was thinking about fitting the outlet out of the side high up. - Maybe that is still an option. Had I gone for the Wallas unit this is probably what I would have done. I have seen an exhaust skin fitting that you can seal up when under way (very expensive). I have a problem on the stern with both the windvane servo rudder and the steps. But as they say, I'll burn that bridge when I get to it. Cheers.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 mine is high up on transom, if fitting on side be wary of fender dangle!
Mark - good point. I do tend to store my fenders hanging over the transom...bound to forget to move them one day before turning the heater on.
Can't wait to see how you fit it. I still got to fit my erbspacher, but still not sure where to put it. Especially interested in how you do the air intake vents too.
I am interested to see how I do the air intake vents. I guess that a proper dorade box would be good - but then again, you don't really want any sort of 'scoop' on it which would force air into the system. I am probably just going to use a bit of a loop to stop any water ingress getting too far and a cowl over the outside to stop rain and spray getting in. I know that a lot (most) people tend to just grab the heater intake air from the cabin space. - I just feel that it would be better to get fresh air from the outside. Thanks for watching.
In the bunk of my semi have one of these just draws air from inside and works fine.
Just ordered one for my boat the fun part is always figuring out where to put new equipment
David, thanks. I have had a couple of comments about drawing air from the inside or the outside. Ideally I would like to be able to switch from one to the other - similar to how we can do it in a car. Maybe that's next year's project. You may have noticed that I make a lot of cardboard templates and models before I do anything - so yes, I agree with you, the fun part is figuring out where to put new stuff. Let me know how you get on with your boat installation. Cheers, Paul.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 my theory is if it is drawing air from inside and if there is condensation it is going to take that air pull it into the heater and in turn dry the air. It already blows dry air out when using it. Cant turn it up too high in my truck it will run you out.
I would suggest running the outlet close to the floor as you know heat rises. I believe i will mount mine in aft locker somewhere similar to your third drawing. Most likely will need to make a bracket for it and mount it high and run exhaust out the stern.
Great video, thanks. I DIYed installed my first heater two years ago so it's very interesting to hear your thought process. I installed a Webasto 2000 with two ducts. My vote is for your last choice at the back of the boat! lol... When these heaters are running at full blast they sound like a jet engine so that position will probably give you the best sound proofing.
Thanks. Yes, a chap at Watchet marina had one. He was many berths away from me, but I could always tell when he was on his boat as you could hear his heater going. I think the last choice will probably win simply because I am not as flexible as I used to be and it is by far the easiest install. Cheers
I was a little worried about the air pressure thing so I decided to initially run the heater with both intakes left inside the boat (Just stuck some filters on them). The idea being if that didn't work out then I could always make the holes and fit the air intakes outside later. The benefit I thought for keeping the air intakes inside the boat was less holes in your boat! lol and the air inside the boat would be warmer than the outside so easier on the heater. However, if you are going to med I think these heaters can run on fan only so if you had the air intake outside you could possibly use it as a way to cool the boat down!
Having less holes in the boat is always a good argument. And yes, I have considered the idea of just using the fan to push non-heated air around the boat. There isn't an actual option on the controls to do this. But I am pretty sure that there is a parameter (hidden in the internals of the software) somewhere that lets you do this - maybe I could do some strange Frankenstein type experiment and link it to the fridge.
Aircon from your fridge! lol... That would make a great video... I have been thinking of using variable flap Y branch duct with a control cable to allow two sources of air intake. This duct is for the hot air output but i'm sure it could be adapted for the air intake!
Good idea - I guess this is pretty much what that little switch on most cars do where you can have the option to recirculate the air.
Started fitting the same to my boat last week, I will most lightly go for in the diesel locker on the cabin bulkhead, I have to move the engine batterie and order more ducting, I am looking forward to the next video P.S. the exhaust skin fitting is Awfull price. BEST OF LUCK Paul, loving the videos
Hi T.J. - I should have waited for you to finish yours first. I haven't bought the exhaust skin fitting yet - probably the single most expensive bit of the whole project. Are you videoing your fitting - I'd watch that ;) Cheers.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 i spend a day working on it all ready but did not record anything, i will hopefully knuckle down and record some soon. I was also missing parts and i am waiting for them to come, it kind of ironic i would like some heat on the boat for my old bones to finish the work
Yes, I totally get the irony. I was thinking, "do I really want to work on the heater today, it's much too cold". Even if you don't video the actual installation process, it would be great to see a video of the finished work. A lot of people I speak to seem to interested in installing these type of heaters. There are loads of videos out there about how to fit them in a van (easy), but not many covering the restrictions of a 'small' sailboat.
I don't know the quality but you can get them on ebay for £17. I too have been toying with the idea of one of these heaters.
@@AndysEastCoastAdventures i searched all last night, What are you typing in or can you put on a link CHEERS T.J.
You may wish to consider putting your warm air pipe inside insulated ducting. And if you've ever run your car's heater on recirculate, 5 minutes later you can't see out of the windows.
Yep, totally agree on both points. And I am not going to spoil what actually happened - just in case you haven't seen parts 2 and 3 yet.
Thanks for watching and commenting - it is always appreciated. Cheers.
Paul, that was great. It’s my next job and you really highlighted all the issues and made my decision easier. If you have links to the stainless L bracket and a better exhaust silencer, that would be really useful. Thank you again for a really useful and interesting video. Best wishes
There are a few brackets and exhausts around. The bracket I got was
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EBERSPACHER-D2-D4-WEBASTO-Planar-night-heater-MARINE-MOUNTING-BRACKET-316/143080951072?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649I have just ordered the exhaust - so I haven't seen it yet:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24MM-MARINE-EXHAUST-SILENCER-MUFFLER-STAINLESS-EBERSPACHER-WEBASTO-DIESEL-HEATER/173731413415?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649Let me know how it goes
Just about to start on installing one
Excellent. I think a lot of people have started to seriously think about these heaters - especially now that the price is in the hundreds rather than the thousands. How did you decide where to put it - or do you have plenty of space?
Nice video Paul! Those units seem very nice. My only thought is: what will happen to the condensation in the exhaust if you get rid of the silencer (no drain hole). But thinking about it further, I guess any condensation (after you turn off the heater) will either evaporate before you restart or will get vaporized during heat-up. 200C is pretty hot, so water will boil off quick. Maybe you just need to check for corrosion every year in the low point (even SS will corrode).
This is a very good question. I have seen a copper loop at the lowest point on both Wallas and Eberspecher systems. But to my mind that is still a "hole" and the gas can still get out - or is that why they put in a loop? What I am doing is to put in a sealed silencer at the lowest point and hope that any condensation gets caught in the wadding. Another alternative might be to have a drain pipe into a small stainless container - but that really would be overengineering.
Just about sailing
A drain loop would work as long as it has water in it to seal. Plus the loop height has to be greater that the exhaust backpressure (probably not much). I'd be more worried about CO/CO2 getting into the boat using any "hole" that is not piped overboard. I think it will be clearer once you test it and see if water is a significant issue.
That makes sense. I agree. I can cope with a bit of potential corrosion - a new exhaust is only £40 and will probably last for years.
Interesting video, thanks.
I have a 28ft boat with a hot air heater, albeit a gas fired Propex, and would add a few suggestions -
1) My heater is rated at 1.6kW, and in the winter it's a little bit underpowered. When I got it the cabin air intake was simply in a cockpit locker so effectively outside air; the cabin got warm but not hot, and took a while to warm through - not what you want after a fresh winter sail. Having the ability to recirculate cabin air helps with the overall warmth but more importantly it heats the cabin much faster. I would recommend having the ability to switch between outside and recirculated air easily, it's an often overlooked item.
2) I would be cautious about planning multiple outlets given that you only have 2kw available - especially if they are Chinese kW which might be a bit smaller! I originally had three outlets in my system(forecabin, main cabin, heads), which was optimistic to say the least. Now down to two, one of which can be closed and it works OK - but I'm looking to upgrade the unit to 3/4kW in the future. I would suggest you install with a possible view to future upgrading.
3) Yes, all types are noisy so install as far away from the cabin as possible
Given all the above, I think the install at the back of the engine bay is definitely the best location.
Great Information - thank you very much.
1. If it is underpowered I guess I could just swap the 2 kW unit out and fit a 5 kW. Someone else has also made the point about being able to switch between cabin and external air. I think this is a great idea - obvious now you mention it, but it didn't occur to me previously.
2. I am going to stick with the one outlet. I have been in bigger boats with only one outlet and that has proved to be fine.
3. Pretty much everyone who has commented who has a similar unit has said that they are really noisy - so that definitely strikes off the idea of putting it under the sink.
Cheers
Something else that I had forgotten - when mounting the heater bracket to the bulkhead, use rubber mounts - cuts down transmission of noise through the superstructure. Not a big deal but for the trouble of a few rubber washers worth doing...
Cheers
Great idea - yep I'll do that.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Neoprene washers or sheet will absorb vibration. A three layer sandwich, is how it's done. eg. Bolt, washer, neoprene, bracket, neoprene, bulkhead, neoprene, washer, nut.
Drawing air out of the cockpit, really bad idea, if you get your cockpit swamped by a wave, your heater is now swamped and probably not working, as well it is a pathway for water to intrude into your boat!
What I have read is that the magic number is 2 meters of exhaust length, anything over that and it will not function correctly.
Also think about having to service the unit, eventually the burn chamber is going to clog up and you are going to have to pull the unit, dissemble, and clean it all out before reinstalling.
I am putting one in my boat as a backup system next week. I am glad you posted that bracket, I am going to get one, that will save a headache!
Thanks for the detailed comment. Much appreciated. I have just had a look at your channel and subscribed. I will catch up over the weekend. Hopefully you are going to put some video up on your install.
I have now actually mounted the unit and have gone for the option with the easiest access. That bracket made life a lot easier - I also put some nitrile rubber behind it to give some acoustic de-coupling (I'm not optimistic that this will work). This position also gives me less than 2m exhaust and allows for a decent 'swan-neck'. I am still considering putting some sort of loop at the lowest part of the exhaust to allow for draining condensation etc. - Or is that overengineering?
Ideally I want to take the air from the outside through a dorade box to prevent the problems you describe. Unfortunately there is no obvious place to put one (well two really) on my boat and they can act as air scoops which would not be good for the combustion chamber air. I have a couple of ideas, but I will probably do the basic installation first and then figure out the intake issues once I know what else is going to be installed on the rear deck. Solar panels, permanent fittings for the Habitent etc.
I think that my boat sometimes looks bigger in the videos. It is only 28ft with a waterline length of only 22ft - this makes fitting everything tricky.
Good luck with your heater install. Cheers.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 on the condensation, that is more of a gasoline problem, if you are running the heater, you shouldn't have condensation in the pipe, having the loop up well above the water line is super important though!
I will be doing a video on the install if I stick with this model heater, I might go bulkhead mounted, I am not sure yet.
I am planning to move to Alaska this summer so need to get something going, then doing a major refit to her up there as yard space is super cheap!
Excellent plan. I will probably be going to the Scottish Isles before setting off somewhere warmer. The Northern parts of Scotland are about the same latitude as the Southern parts of Alaska (57th parallel).
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 I get to do the big refit next year, dropping the ballast keel and all new through hulls as well as glassing over the teak toe rail then painting the whole boat and doing a complete rewire.
Going to be a party!
Then I am off to the Philippines!
Hi Paul, Great channel. I found you a couple of days ago when searching for lazy jack installation. I've now watched all of your vlogs (binge watching and neglecting the Mrs). I have just got back into sailing after I sold my last yacht (Hustler 25.5) 11 years ago. I've just bought a Newbridge Pioneer 26 and love it. She's out of the water until April and is currently a 6 hour round trip away but I'm loving the prep work on her. I have an Eberspacher heater to install so I'm looking forward to seeing your installation (I know, i'll be looking for the potential mistakes I could make ;) ). One thing that would be interesting is to learn about your background. What made you get into sailing (apart from the gliding escapade)? What was your trade and experience (you seem to know a lot about engineering, maybe you published engineering literature)? How old are you (just thinking there may be hope for me)? Keep up the good work and I look forward to your next vlog.Darran.
Blimey Darran - that's a lot of questions. Firstly, I would recommend you sit down with a nice cup of tea if you've done that much binge watching - can't be good for your health. Secondly, the Newbridge Pioneer is one of the first boats I ever looked at with a serious view to buying a small yacht. I remember clearly stepping into it and thinking it was like a Tardis. That was about 30 years ago. I was actually looking for a Pioneer Pilot more recently when Serenity came up. So you've got yourself a faboulous boat.
In terms of background. I have had sailing as a thing I wanted to do since I was about 15 years old. It never quite happened properly and I gradually started to do a bit of sailing and get some qualifications through my late 20s and beyond. Work and stuff always got in the way - as it does for a lot of us. Hence not buying the Pioneer. So I decided I would make the break when I retired. The last few years have been spent trying to bring that retirement date earlier. It is happening slowly.
Background. Well I have done pretty much everything including a bit of technical laboratory work (vacuum systems). But mainly I have always done my own mechanical work and used to rebuild engines from about the age of 11. - I very rarely send a car to a garage for anything, so am used to fixing mechanical things. If you really want the details type 'Imagine you only had one life what would you do with it' (my book) into Amazon, then have a look at my author page - there is a bit of a summary there. That will give you an idea. And if you want even more, you'll probably need to beg, borrrow or steal the book.
Age is irrelevant, I did the London Marathon many years ago (2002) and got overtaken by a 93 year old. If someone can run the marathon at 93 then anyone can do anything. Cheers - and enjoy that cup of tea.
I would like to have very easy access to anything with "a fire going on" on a boat. If the diesel regulator fails you know. Or a leakage.
Usually any hot air in the boat will be under the roof top, so you could consider af 12v fan to spread the heated air around in the cabin. This fan could also be useful in summertime to create a nice breeze :-)
That is a good point. Even though the 'flame' is totally enclosed, it is still a flame. I think everything is pointing to the easy access option.
I agree with the fan idea. I was originally planning to install some to help cool the boat and keep circulation going. But they could definitely double up to make sure that the hot air doesn't just gather at the top.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Exactly, even being an enclosed flame, stuff on a boat just gets beaten up / corrosion and all other nightmares lol.
Regardings flames and so on, if you intend to sleep on the boat with the heater running, perhaps install a smokealarm or something. Just for extra extra safety (I'm so respectful/scared of flames on a boat. Luckily there is a lot of water available usually).
Looking forward to see the installation. Hm do you intend a testrun of the heater before installing?
I will probably do a test run on the boat by linking stuff up without drilling all the vent holes or routing the electricals properly. Although I will probably install the exhaust in its final place.
Hope your boats well insured 😮 P.S looking at a Rival 34 now, looking good.
You've watched my videos and still think I might be insurable - I'll take that as a compliment. The Rival 34 is a lovely looking yacht with all the right curves in all the right places. Loads of room too. Good luck. Cheers.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Ha ha, Good point. Yeah the Rival was built for cross ocean wave bashing, apparently one of the toughest classics around. It has had an in mast furling rig with double spreaders put on her 20 years back so I am slightly reserved about that and currently doing some research but otherwise seems an honest boat. At 6'2 I like the room despite her being narrow by modern standards .
@@iank2196 I used to be really against in mast furling, until I sailed a boat around Great Britain last year with it in.
I'd still prefer slab reefing but wouldn't discount a boat because of it!
Rival 34 sounds great! I'm trying to sell my 30ft yacht, looking for something around 34 to 36ft! Thinking sigma...
@@marsupial26 yeah, I'm still weighing up the pro's and cons. However i'm purchasing the boat (if we do) with a friend with the possible future of me taking it over myself and going further. The respected Tom Cunliff's words of having in mast furling on blue water passages ring in my ears and give me pause for thought.
Bear in mind the rival 34 was not designed or built with such a rig in mind, I'm trying to find someone who better understands the science and risks of the weight higher up being put in a boat that was not designed for it. If I (we) was only ever going to coastal cruise I would be far less bothered...but ..what if?
Can we heat water with the exhaust like divers do with some sort of heat exchanger?
I am sure that there must be a way to do this. It is very wasteful that so much heat just disappears out of the exhaust. I have seen a butane powered system for vans that has a concentric exhaust system where the incoming air is heated (by the exhaust pipe) before it gets to the combustion chamber.
The thing about this heater is that it is very cheap - and not at all complex. But there must be much better designs out there.
Cheers
Paul
where did you buy the thru hull the muffler and better exhaust pip?
James, I got them all off ebay. The links for these things seem to change all the time, so there is no point in me trying to paste the links to them here.
However, if you search ebay for Webasto (or Eberspacher) accessories you should come up with all of these things. Having said that, it does depend on where you are in the world. For example, I know that people in Canada have had problems trying to get the exhaust pipe.
Cheers
Paul
I'm looking to mount one in my wooden sailboat and my houseboat. I would keep the air intake for the heating air low inside the boat so as to recirculate the air thus reducing fuel consumption. Obviously the air inlet for the combustion chamber should be outside of the cabin.
Hi Captain. Ideally I would like to be able to switch between taking the air from the inside or the outside. Most people seem to stick with recirculating. It is probably going to be easier for me to take the air from outside because of the distance the heater will be from the main cabin area. And, yes, quite right, the air for the combustion chamber must come from the outside. Good luck with your installation.
I think you may have this the wrong way round. Combustion air can come from inside, because it’s going to be thrown overboard in the exhaust. Doesn’t matter how dirty it is, and it will provide airflow. Ventilation air should always come from outside to stop humidity buildup. Yes it uses a bit more fuel, but it gives you clean, dry air.
Super great Paul. I enjoy. Wow cheap Chinese heater that seems really good. I've been trying to decide what to do on my Mirage 28. I've done feeds to you before and in fact I'm not far from you. Now I have an eberspacher fitted on mine but no controller and the wires cut at the heater. It's how I bought it and I have no idea why it's how it is or weather there's any chance it would ever work. Everything else is there, heather fitted in place as in your option 2, fuel pump and line direct from main tank. Exhaust and silencer looped at the stern and exit starboard rear quarter. The hot air ducting comes down the port side under the quarter berth and comes out low down below the other starboard berth adjacent to the engine hatch / gangways moulding. Probably be good for me to get a Chinese one and utilise all the stuff I've already got. Is it a Chinese Ebay job? Kindest Patrick.
Patrick. Excellent - good to know that there are other Mirage's out there with heaters. T.J. from Sail Cancer is also about to install a Chinese heater on his Mirage 28. Remember that I haven't actually run the Chinese heater yet - but I am not expecting any problems. I did get it from ebay. I would guess that you could get one and simply fit it where the Eberspacher is using all the existing ancillaries. The wiring looks easy on the heater - everything just clips together. Let me know how you get on if you decide to do it. Cheers.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Thanks Paul. I follow the feeds with TJ with interest. Also saw your link for buying the exhaust outlet skin fitting. It may not be relevant but researching last night I discovered that the 24mm suggested suitability for model 3500 and upwards. I found 22mm one that said suitable for Web / Eber d2 2000. I see that you've decided the position on the sloping stern with angled fitting. Because of the slope I don't know if you'll get a lot of exhaust soot drips in that position. I did have a stern one in a previous boat non sloping but it had a stern boarding ladder and I remember wishing the exhaust wasn't there re inflatable and boarding comings and goings. I'm sure your one will be fine. Only suggestion is double check the exhaust fitting size. Perhaps look at other listings for 24mm and 22mm and compare. Love your videos and look forward the next. Take care.
Thanks for the info. The exhaust outlet is on its way now - so we will see. I moved the boarding ladder to one side because of the self-steering gear. I am hoping the exhaust will be OK on the other side. I did measure the exhaust at 24mm - so hopefully I have ordered the right size. Lots of crossed fingers with this one. I am hoping T.J. will be videoing his installation. Cheers.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Excellent, I'm sure it will be brilliant. Look forward. You are so expert at doing the videos and working at the same time. It's a real skill. Well done. All the best.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Hi Paul, Further to your heater project, there seem to be lots of different Chinese options! IE plastic, red, black, white etc but also different controllers. I can find a 2kw white one on Ebay but has a different controller from yours. I can't seem to find the one you have. Any suggestions? Hope your fitting is going well. Patrick.
Hi could you post a link for your heater and extras you purchased please thanks keep up the good work
Trevor, I got pretty much everything from ebay. I am based in the UK and I know that some items are difficult to get in other countries. I am pasting the links below - but I know that some may not work any more. For example the heater itself...but as far as I know these probably all come from the same factory in China.
Bracket
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EBERSPACHER-D2-D4-WEBASTO-Planar-night-heater-MARINE-MOUNTING-BRACKET-316-/143213979958?hash=item215837e936
Silencer
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24MM-MARINE-EXHAUST-SILENCER-MUFFLER-STAINLESS-EBERSPACHER-DIESEL-HEATER-/183762469474?hash=item2ac918c262
Thru-hull
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/exhaust-outlet-24mm-for-webasto-heaters-stainless-steel-polished-eberspacher-d5-/183758810317?hash=item2ac8e0eccd
Oh, that's it. The other ones seem to have disappeared. Sorry about that - but if you search ebay you should be able to find similar items.
I assume you are going to be fitting one of these - let me know how it goes.
Cheers, Paul
PS Not so sure about the "good work", but I will keep up the "work" ;)
Hi Paul - Hope you have been keeping well - I finished my Boat install Xmas week and I am very warm - I plan to make a short video (not too in depth) - Could I use your youtube links to give people advice ?
Jon
Jon, yes of course. Once I put something up on CZcams I consider it to be public domain. I do, usually, try and stress that I am no expert and that people do things at their own risk. My heater is still working well. I need to move the diesel tank as I am fitting a larger one.
Glad you are warm.
Cheers, Paul
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Thanks Paul - I am looking around Easter Time to post it up - the thing is that you say your'e no expert but really you are because you took a methodical approach without rushing into things.
Actually is the tent up then you could grow tomatoes and mushrooms Patty pan is a pretty squash that would at to that permanent feel of being stuck in the boatyard🃏
Brilliant suggestion. That is completely the way to go. I could even dig a septic tank at the boatyard - no need to finish the holding tank. Thanks.
Also, could you run the exhaust pipe through the cabin top with a Charlie Nobel deck fitting? With a burn guard inside you would also reclaim heat off of the exhaust. Would be no different than a bulkhead mounted diesel heater.
I don't know is the honest answer to the Charlie Nobel question. I have seen something similar from Wallas that can come out of the side of the hull above the waterline and then clamps up to make it watertight. - Reclaiming the heat from the exhaust will have to be a future project. It does seem such a waste to have all that hot air simply being ejected out of the boat. - It must be possible to rig up some sort of heat exchange mechanism - maybe to heat up water? Cheers.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 I don't know if I would exit the exhaust pipe anywhere along the side of the boat. That could put it underwater when heeled down. If not through the roof I would put it as high as prudent in the center of the transom to keep a following sea from injecting water into a hot inlet.
Looking forward to your install video(s).
I agree with this - although people do exit the exhaust out of the side. I don't have a lot of room on the transom. It is actually quite a small area. I already have the ladder and the Seafeather steering gear - but it will fit somehow.
aren't the exhaust and inlet meant to be horizontal rather than vertical?
Do you mean the exhaust and inlet to the combustion chamber? These normally point straight down and go through the floor in a van installation. Mine will go down, along a bit, up and then down again - so all over the place really. Ideally I would want to put the heater a lot higher. Unfortunately it just wasn't an option.
If you wander over to (Onboard Lifestyle) there is a series of detailed videos about how Teal replaced his heating system with a pair of these units in his catamaran. There maybe a few tips and ideas for you.
Cheers Eric
Thanks Eric. Yes, I am a keen follower of Onboard Lifestyle. Teal always does a fantastic job in everything he does. I know that he is still pondering about whether to put some sort of water trap on his exhaust. This has given me cause for thought. - But his exhaust outlets point forwards, whereas mine come out of the back. I might wait to see what he does.
I think that Teal from Onboard Lifestyle and Mads from Sail Life are an inspiration to the rest of us (normal) DIYers. I have learned a lot from both of them.
Cheers
Did you consider fitting an exhaust condensation drain?
Good question. Yes. Check out my December 2 2019 video. I did fit a drain. I know that many people don't, but I figured that there would be quite a lot of condensation - as well as water produced as part of the combustion process. Not a problem in vans, but in a boat you tend to have a low point. It seems to be working well.
Cheers
Paul
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Thanks Paul, I’ll look for that video then. I’m jealous of your straight heating duct run. I can not avoid two 90 degree bends. Not much room in my 34 foot racing boat..
Hi Everyone. I have watched many of the 'Just about sailing' videos and find them very watchable, and informative. I am semi retired and have recently purchased a 1980 Mirage 28 'Jenna' which is in a boatyard as she has been for 2 - 3 years and will be put in the water shortly. I have been 'tarting' her up for want of a better term. I have a VERY IMPORTANT question as my Grandkids will come on this boat. I am replacing sections of the headliner, and the baking has deteriorated and flaked, and there is a lot of dust. WAS ASBESTOS OR ANY OTHER DANGEROUS SUBSTANCE USED IN THIS? Could anyone advise please as a matter of urgency? Your answers would be much appreciated. Nick from Worcestershire.
Hi Nick. Firstly, congrats on getting a Mirage. I hope the 'tarting up' is going well. If you search google for 'Mirage 28' there are a lot of people on forums etc who say what a good family boat it is.
As for your key question, the honest answer is that I don't know. However, I have never heard of asbestos being used in this way. The headlining on my boat does not seem to be to be the original headlining. Even so, it has pretty much disintegrated and I am replacing most of it. It seems to be the universal foam backed vinyl that does not last very long and turns to dust. I know that Westerly Centaurs of the same vintage have similar problems.
Even though I don't think that there is asbestos involved, I still always use a decent dust mask with replaceable filters whenever I am doing any sort of sanding or scraping. I am sure that the dust from the foam is not particularly healthy (even if not toxic). And ground fibreglass is not healthy at all either.
Once I have finished 'tarting up' Serenity I intend to give her a thorough deep clean and get rid of any residual dust. I have grandnephews and nieces I would like to sail on the boat. I am not concerned about their well-being once the boat is cleaned up. However, if you were really worried I guess there are organisations out there somewhere that could do an analysis for you.
Cheers, Paul.
Cheers Paul. Many thanks for your quick reply. To a certain extent you have allayed my fears. I think it is a problem with people of today with the internet etc that we know too much and too little. Once again many thanks. Keep up the good work with your entertaining blog. Nick. @@verynearlyaboutsailing8114
Good luck with the work you are doing. Let me know how it goes. Cheers
Where's the diesel supply coming from? From the main tank or from a separate one - and if so - where will you put it? Btw, could you put out a link to where you bought that heater?
I was tempted to put a dip pipe in the main diesel tank. However, most people are suggesting that a separate 'day tank' would be a good idea. I will probably do that. I should have room to put a small tank (either the 5 litre one that came with the heater or a larger 10 litre one) right next to the main tank.
Double check as these things change rapidly, but the link for the actual heater I bought is:
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2KW-12V-diesel-Air-Heater-LCD-Switch-With-Remote-Silencer-For-Truck-Boat-Trailer/202449593659?hash=item2f22efa53b:g:huUAAOSwSudcOEFs:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Thank you very much, I'll look into it very soon. Good luck on installation, you're doing great! Btw, I'd go for a 10 ltr tank to avoid having to fill a smaller one too often.
Cheers. One of the issues with these heaters is you don't always get the bits in the box you thought you were getting. I was hoping for a 10 litre tank - but no big deal, I will probably buy a 10 litre one.
Do I correctly remember that you have no actual use for the gas locker anymore? If so, then cutting that out would give you more than enough room to easily fit the furnace in, and the convenient warm side ducting to the saloon. Then, just ("just") add a good upside-down U lip with a gasket to the hatch and you even have easy access to service if something were ever to go wrong.
The reason I'm struggling with the best #2 plan is that the huge space behind the engine is where I'd expect to have the MAIN fuel tank, and make the red one off to the side the auxiliary/reserve tank. You'd have fuel for a whole week of motoring then, in case of "seagull stole the mainsail" or similar scales of disasters.
Peter, that is a good idea regarding the old gas locker. I have actually earmarked it as a chain/rode locker for the stern anchor - I intend to get a fortress. I did wonder about doing this. With a bit of time and effort it would probably be possible to have the best of both words. - I am not sure I have the time or the effort at the moment unfortunately. - Brain and body is still on a 'go-slow'.
I don't know why Thames Marine didn't put the fuel tank behind the engine when they designed the Mirage. The red tank is actually in the same place as the old stainless tank - which was smaller. I think the time to have put a tank behind the engine would have been when I swapped the Yanmar for the Beta. The other thing is that I am still pondering over whether I want hot water or not. That space would be good for getting a calorifier and accumulator fitted. Again, it's a time and effort thing.
Keep the ideas coming, they are appreciated.
If its in by thursday you can melt the snow with it
We've already had some snow - but good point. I am very interested to see just how warm I can make it. Maybe Serenity needs a sauna compartment.
I have no direct hands on experience with this kit but here are my observations based on what I observed in your video. Feel absolutely free to give them a stiff ignoring
1. I think position option3 is the ‘best’ - but may be better if you cut out the gas locker bucket if you know what I mean so you have access from the cockpit.
2. Consider using the silencer - weld the drain hole up and fit near to the unit.
3. The hot air discharge hoses would benefit to being better insulated especially for the initial longer run.
4. It would be better to have more than one hot outlet but not more than three.
5. You did not talk much about the finalised fuel supply - did you? Tank location etc?
6. Are you removing the propane copper gas pipe - if not maybe you could repurpose as a fuel line?
😀👍
Very good observations. I always welcome comments. Actually, I agree with almost all of what you say - but I will probably ignore some or all of it.
1. Yes, option 3 is the best and I did think about cutting out (bits of) the old gas locker. But I would like to store chain in it for the stern anchor. But main reason for probably not going this route is that my plans are so far behind, I am trying to avoid things which delay too much.
2. I am most probably going to use a marine grade sealed silencer. There is a big variability in the Chinese ones and it is not just the hole in the bottom. No problem if it was hanging off a van.
3. This is a tricky one. With regard to the heater air going into the cabin I completely agree and will be insulating the entire length. For the exhaust, I really want as little insulation as possible so that the exhaust is as cooled as possible by the time it gets to the outlet - however, there are a few points where it will be a bit close to some fiberglass; so maybe I insulate some bits.
4. It would be better to have more outlets. Two would be ideal. I am basing my plan to only have one simply on having known someone with a bigger boat who only had one and it kept the whole interior very toasty indeed. If I had decided to go for option 1 (under the sink), I probably would make more outlets as it would be very easy to extend along the starboard side.
5. You had to go and mention the elephant in the room! I was hoping nobody would notice. I am very undecided as to whether to keep a separate supply (probably a bigger tank than the one that came with the heater) or plumb it into the main tank. All the locations are good for either option.
6. Don't know on this one. I have thought about repurposing the gas pipe. Unfortunately it takes away a bit of head room (only 30 mm or so) because of where it crosses under the cockpit - and it is my fault because I fitted it in the first place. That 30 mm would be useful to raise the heater up and give more room for the exhaust underneath.
Do keep the suggestions coming - they are very much appreciated. Cheers.
Just about sailing I never suggested insulating the exhaust but if you have a run close to the GRP maybe stick some of that foul tape to the GRP. 👍
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 #5 or combined: Have a small tank for the heater, plumbed to your main tank but with a valve/pump.
I have seen people do the combined option. I quite like the idea of a 'day tank' where you pump it from the main one to the smaller heater one.
Couldn't see what silencer you have but be careful as they are mostly made for road vehicles and have a drain hole in them which emit some fumes
You are absolutely right. I will not be using the one that came with it. I have ordered a sealed marine grade one - couldn't show it as it hasn't arrived yet. I'll cover that in the actual installation video. Cheers
Lucy should up your life insurance by at least 100k.captn als winter expedition comes to mind. Option4 fly to finland and buy an albin vega with it all done its still january in summerzet. For gods sake get the stove working you must have a hot ☕️
A Winter Sail will always be the best sailing video on CZcams. I need to get the headlining and heat shield installed over the stove - and before I do that I need to check if I need a couple of holes drilled through for some permanent clips for the Habitent. But of course being able to make a hot cup of tea is, and will always be, a priority. Cheers.
Your driving us all barmy i dont think you have even finished the cardboard boat that all the cardboard cutouts fit into , ran put that heater in about half an hour,dont forget your books will make perfect insulation, and a couple of tilley lamps will keep you alive until march. When hopefully your girl will officiate at the launching ceremony
Ah, so you know about the full size cardboard model of Serenity then. That was supposed to be a secret. Actually, the fact that RAN were happy to put in a Chinese heater gave me a lot of confidence that it was probably OK.
Epoxying a water resistant cardboard box around the boat could guarantee a eureka moment as she goes afloat i know you have archimedes jumper in a locker somewhere
Funny you should say this. There are a couple of large boats at the yard that are in 'dry dock'. The dry dock is essentially a floating barge on the river. So, yes - I would regard this as a worthy challenge. The extended use of cardboard is very underrated in my view ;)
hello. ! i am new here and in sailing i would like to contact you somehow to get more info about the boat please it would be much appreciated
Thanks for watching. Please feel free to ask any questions about sailing, or Serenity. I will try and answer them - but I am not going to pretend to be any sort of expert on anything. Cheers.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 i want to show you the duts in the bilge holding the keel to know your opinion if the metal betwen should be canged or not. i have asked several people and i have heared diferent opinions. the boat is a mirage 28 fin keel. and has 5 nuts holding the keel. coul i send you some picks to your e mail?
Ah. I have the same issue. Have a look at my June 1 2017 video (from about 12 minutes in) - I show what the nuts look like. Some don't look so good. Also have a look at the May 2018 video where I very briefly show the keel to hull joint (about 3/4 of the way in I think).
I have also had a lot of different opinions from different people. Some say it will be fine. Others say I should change both the nuts and the studs - and possibly take off the keel and re-bed it.
I am going to use a local marine surveyor and get him to have a really good look at the nuts, studs and keel joint. I will cover that in a video which I hope to do in April.
I really don't feel I am qualified to pass any sort of opinion on someone else's boat when I am not really sure what to do with mine.
There used to be a message facility on CZcams, but that seems to have disappeared. I will see if I can set up some sort of email address for this channel.
It is odd that we both have the same possible issue with the same boat.
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 thanks a lot for your reply I have the boat on land right now and working on it. it will be out of the water for a month and everything that will be done on the boat I have to squeeze it in this time table and the most important thing that I am worried about is what I mentioned on the previous message. I am leaning two words changing only the metal plates under the nuts it's just because you have the same like mine I would feel better if you could take a look and tell me your opinion thank you
Manos, I am sorry, but I cannot give you an opinion. This is a matter of safety and I do not have the expertise to make any sort of recommendation or judgement. I am going to rely on the judgement of a qualified marine surveyor with a good reputation to inspect my keel bolts. I would suggest you consider doing the same. Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not an expert - and you need an expert.
Good luck with it.
I have a golden rule on my boat no Chinese products and I know there cheaper but I would of gone with a planctor heater made in Russia when it comes to heating a good quality product may have been a better choice you pay a higher price but much better quality
Very fair point - and I am surprised that you are the first to mention it. I was firmly going down the Scandinavian route at the start (Wallas or Webasco) with Eberspacher as a very viable alternative. It is a risk, but I think it is a calculated risk. There are a lot of these out in vans at the moment and more, and more on boats. Only time will tell. The Planar heater was a close second - but, what can I say, I'm obviously a cheapskate. Cheers.
I know quiet a few with the Russian variant, non of them working at the moment. Also the Webasto's and Eberspacher's don't really work for liveaboards. I would go with the Chinaspacher. You will probably go for a Reflex, Newport or Norske Blueflamme after some experience anyway.
I like the look of the Reflex heaters. Hopefully after some experience I will be heading for warmer climes and heating will become irrelevant. Swap it out for aircon hopefully.
Fit it And stop messing around. I hope this helps you buddy
thats a 5kw detuned, 2 kw is smaller
Thanks, I'm sure you are right. I've just had a look at the manual. The manual says that the 2kW is 320 long and the 5kW is 380 long. Mine is 380 overall including the outlets. - I guess that means I could change the parameters and ramp it up to 5kW if I wanted. - But I think I'll stick to 2kW at first. Useful comment, thanks.