Insane cornering by UK's fastest crit riders | What can we learn?
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- čas přidán 27. 10. 2021
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For those training, another way you could crash is onto a wet road and a bumby road. Make sure the road your cornering is smooth and clean. (Small pebbles and dirt may also be a factor to crashing since the tire is so skinny)
I was terrible at this, then went to a crit circuit in a park close enough to me early in the morning when I have the place to myself and just practiced it. One of the things which I think is import, but you never mentioned is also looking in the right place. If you look at the image in your video at around the 3:00 mark the guy is looking towards where he wants to go, not looking into the corner itself. For me, the massive improvement I found was achieved with being in the drops, knee out, other leg down with pressure on that pedal, breaking before the corner not through the corner, and looking towards where I want to go, and practice practice, practice. The looking part seems obvious but perhaps oddly enough was the one I needed most practice on, it is almost natural (for me anyway) to tend to just look at the corner.
100% agree with this. If you get fixated on the road surface in the corner, you'll lose all confidence. Always keeping a focus on the exit of the corner is key. That's not to say you shouldn't be aware of the surface in front of you, but always returning your eyes to the exit will help. It's the cycling equivalent of "keep your eye on the ball."
Everything you said makes sense to me, except for the unweighting the front wheel comments - wouldn't you increase your chances of losing traction if there is less weight on the front tyre? Greater weight on the front tyre = increased coefficient of friction no? Hence why you keep braking when initially entering a tight corner in a car to keep the weight on the front wheels, spoilers/wings on racecars to increase downforce for faster cornering etc.
Another thing I think worth mentioning which a lot of people mess up, is where they're looking - you can see in the paused frames he is looking out toward the exit of the corner, where he wants to direct the bike. Lots of people look at the section of corner immediately in front of them, which causes them to subconciously steer that way and overshoot the turn.
Just my thoughts... another great video!
I was waiting for someone to bring this up, I also thought a bit about this because naturally I just know shifting weight back makes you less likely to slide out when riding the limits on corners, but also thought along similar lines to you in theory.
Someone with a better physics background may be able to explain better, but when cornering at max speed, the tyre is already on the limits of it's grip in relation to the angle of the road. More weight through the front wheel also isn't vertical/downwards force, it's going through the angle of the bike, which when cornering on a non-banked road surface is a somewhat outwards force, not downforce.
It's exaggerated and easier to imagine when riding in the rain, when you naturally have less grip, you are trying to shift as much weight off the front tyre as possible because you have limited grip. So you could imagine going through a corner in the wet, then shifting your weight over the front wheel it will just slip out, not increase in grip.
This all changes if the surface is banked (on an angle), like a berm on the MTB. Because the weight/force through the wheel has an equally returned force, which would be giving you more grip.
@@nerocoaching thanks for the reply. This sounds like an excellent question to test a first or second year engineering/physics student on, I’m not at that level but what I can remember from year 11/12 physics is what brought me to my theoretical conclusion.
I think it comes down to separating inertia (which acts in the direction you are travelling (“at an angle” rather than directly downwards) which supports your reasoning) and gravitational forces (which always have a direct downwards component regardless of road surface angle).
I know from personal experience riding motorbikes off-road, that loading the front tyre through turns by shifting your weight forward always increased grip regardless of ground surface angle. Unloading the front tyre increased the likelihood of the front washing out, for example on a flat hard-packed fire trail corner covered in fine loose dirt.
One possible explanation is that the loss of traction is caused by a bump or small variation in the road surface. So if you de-weight your front wheel and relax your arms you're effectively giving the front wheel more suspension. So if you hit a bump your body absorbs it so your front wheel stays in contact with the ground. (But this doesn't account for losing traction on a perfectly smooth road.)
In MTB, unweighting the front happens quite a lot, especially to newer riders on descents as they tend to hang off the back of the bike. This happens in the berms and flat corners and all it does it make it far easier to wash out the front wheel so yes, from an experience perspective, you do not want to unweight your front. Ideally you should be balancing your weight across both contact points to the ground to maximise your grip.
From an engineering point to prove / disprove it, Peak Torque on YT could probably solve it in his sleep if anyone can get hold of him.
I agree. Increasing the weight in the front creates more friction (at least that’s what I thought). It would be great if a qualified respondent could verify.
This is important coaching. Hitting big watts is one thing but cornering is another.
Weighting the outside pedal makes the bike want to turn to the outside. The rider must correct with handlebar pressure. You can see the bobble at 0,26. However, a bicycle has moveable pedals vs a motorbike. This outside weighting is diminished by the advantage of a lower centre of mass. If the rider is planted on the saddle, that's where the CoM is at. If weight is on the pedal at the bottom of the circle, it is much lower CoM. Also, it is likely the rider is also weighting the inside pedal.
Thanks, Jesse .
I have never thought about the front wheel is the key.
Super stuff!
Just in time for heffron return this weekend 👍🏻
Another great video. … I think that cornering analysis deserves a lot more time and attention… Coming from both a physics/engineering and ski coaching background I think that more even weight will provide best grip. Front wheel will be more likely to slip out when it deviates from optimal line or arc around the corner-this is less likely to happen with rear wheel. Braking, changing line or changes to relative position of COM to tyre contact points can also lead to slipping. Having no weight on saddle seems to be optimal, if only to allow for continuous balance adjustments-especially angulating or tipping the bike into the corner. Inside leg out of the way also makes this easier. You can clearly see Harry Tanfield off the saddle going into that corner... I would like to see some analysis but I think you could push the bike frame well past 45° while maintaining balance and grip... Finally, I think that having a light feel through the hands, even if there is quite a bit of pressure, will allow almost automatic micro adjustments to maintain balance and line.
Thanks Andy, very good points. The whole more weight through front wheel = more grip thing is interesting. I may be technically wrong, but then wonder why shifting weight back and out of the saddle when corning seems to be more effective for me
@@nerocoaching ... I think that you will find that it has more to do with you then being able to make those micro-balance adjustments with the hands easier when you are further back. There is less margin for error with the front wheel and, as you stated, the rear wheel hardly ever slides out so you will feel more comfortable and safer shifting the weight back... I think that as a rider's awareness of balance, and hence corning skills, improve they should be able to move forward and be even more stable at higher speeds, in tighter corners or on a more slippery surface... I am surprised that cycling cornering does not seem to have been analysed to the extent of say giant slalom turns in alpine skiing--the forces and analysis should be similar.
I am a city commuter. I have tried both road and mtb Shimano cleats, and flats. I think using clipless pedals give me a better feeling of being attached to my bike. It also gives me much more confidence getting out of the saddle. However, flats are really much more convenient, especially in traffic, and uphills are harder to clip in, not to mention that they are much better for walking. I now use a single sided spd, so that i can ride in my regular vans shoes to work, and just use a mtb cleat for long rides. I also dont find mtb cleats to perform worse than road cleats, and its wayy easier to walk in mtb
thank you, i'm going to do my first local crit race in 2 days. i hope i can implement this
how did it go?
Another perfect video!
Liked and subbed. Took a couple of vids but I’m in.
Hey Jesse, this is great timing. I have a two-corner crit coming up soon and I'm bricking it just thinking about hitting 180° turns at speed. Do you have any tips for really sharp corners?
Nothing specific, same tips apply. But stay up the front, accordion affect is bigger on slower corners, don't be in the 2nd half of the bunch
Relaxed arms is also a big thing, tense arms = slow cornering.
I spent the better part of a decade coaching and mentoring new racers. High speed cornering was one of the first skills I gave them. It makes a huge difference for confidence and taking the fear and chaos out of racing. I can teach anyone to be a world class bike handler in 30 seconds. It involves a very simple, uncomplicated adjustment that riders can make. Viewed from the side, a bicycle is very wide, but viewed head-on, a bike is very narrow. It’s essentially a stick, and a stick is a lever. If you’re pulling *down* on the top tube you’re levering your tires off the pavement and that’s when they wash out. If you’re using the generated centrifugal force to pull up and out on the top tube, you’re levering the tires into the pavement through the fulcrum of the bottom bracket and increasing the fictive force on the tires, allowing for faster, tighter, smoother cornering. And it’s exponential, (centrifugal F= m times speed squared divided by radius of turn, and it is amplified by the leverage of the bike frame) and it feeds back- the faster you go, the more frictive force you get, so the faster you can go, and the more frictive force you get etc. The adjustment is: Lean the bike, not your body. When one starts doing it it feels like you’re leaning to the outside of the turn, but it’s more subtle than that; you’re keeping your shoulders square to the road surface and pushing the bike down into the turn. Watch Giulio Ciccone’s descent in the Criterium du Dauphine; it’s a master class. It is not uncommon for people, especially people with a lot of time and experience on a bike who have risen to the highest levels of the sport on speed and endurance to be skeptical at first, but then they try it and the universal response is ‘omg I’ve been riding my bike wrong my entire life!” And, honestly, there’s no shame in that- there are even GC contenders in the European pro peloton- who are the most coached riders in the world- who don’t know this and no one tells them. I don’t know why. I’d say easily 2/3rds of all racers, even at the highest levels, are cornering incorrectly. It definitely gave me, my teammates, and everyone I mentored a distinct advantage.
Thx.
Ideal PSI for front and back?
depends on tyres, wheels, road surface, rider weigh, race type. Need to look up tyre pressure charts for your combo
Facts 👌👌
what age did u start racing?
21
@@nerocoaching just go cyclocross pro
28-30c tyres and 55psi send itttttt
How old where you when you came into cycling?
21
@@nerocoaching Damn, same as me. That's pretty inspiring to know 😉
How old are you now if I may ask? I recently just turned 23 atleast & am sitting at around 5.1-2 w/kg teoretical ftp based on 20min test. Have done some of your workouts & really like them. Keep up the awesome content 👌
I'm 27. But I should add, I rowed at a high level before cycling, so that helped massively. Progression will be slower if you were a 21 year old that didn't do much sport. FTP > 5w/kg after 2 years is good, congrats.
@@nerocoaching Thanks. I was quite unlucky with my timing when it came to competing though so I will try to see if it's something I will pursue as a hobby or take it more seriously next year when things are back to normal again here. Sorry for all the questions, but do you think you have reached peak performance at your age or still improvements to come?
Edit: If this goes on you should sign up to AskQuestions & you'd become rich of me lol😆
But really appreciate it mate! Will go do some zwifting now. Cold outside here in Norway now, so it's not possible to do much outside 😢
I've reached peak because I don't have time to train like I did in 2017 and 2018 where I got to a high level, training almost full time.
Front wheel washes out because of too much weight on it, therefore put more weight over the back wheel because... 'the back wheel never washes out'.
Some skewed logic here. If your wheel washes out you've gone too fast for the surface, or you've weighted the inside of the bike too much
Surely he's talking about keeping it balanced and not putting too much weight on the front. Also your front wheel controls where you corner so you can have the rear slide and if the front is still going in the right direction it's fine
Good video, but completely wrong about unweighting the front wheel. Try going around a corner on a mtb with no weight over the front!
Different scenario, MTB tyre has more grip potential (bigger surface patch, lower pressure, banked turns, etc)
For crying out load. Get the fencing out of the street. The riders should have the whole road. PERIOD
I'm sorry but I have to comment. Your advice about locating your weight is completely incorrect. In cornering you get low and lean forward to increase the weight on the front wheel. This increases the frictional force and prevents the front wheel from washing out. Please remove this video and reedit it.
This has been discussed in more detail in the comments section, it's not that simple. Feel free to add to the discussion
Unfortunately the discussion invokes a lot of incorrect physics. It will take me too long to point out all the things that are incorrect. The short version is that cornering needs friction. Friction depends on the normal component of the force exerted by the road on the tire. If you lower the normal force you lower the friction. The wheel slips. The best weight distribution is 50/50. Normally you have more weight on the rear wheel which lowers the friction on the front wheel. To increase the front wheel friction you have to shift your weight forward. I race crits and have a PhD in physics. Google me if you think I'm a poser
The purpose of pushing down on the outside pedal serves only one purpose. It shifts your weight forwards
But there is a limit to the amount of grip the front tyre has, it's not just a matter of more weight over the front wheel = more grip. As discussed in the other comments, it's exaggerated in the rain. Anyone who's raced in the rain knows you can't just full send a corner with heaps of weight over the front wheel, it will slide out.
Friction is determined by two factors. The normal component of the surface force AND the coefficient of friction between the tire and the road. The frictional force is equal to the coefficient times the normal force. In the wet, you slip because the coefficient of friction has decreased.