Power producing hi-tech spring selection
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- čas přidán 25. 11. 2022
- In this episode 25 of PowerTec 10, DV explains how selecting the right springs can lead to higher rpm and power with less spring poundage.
A new generation of springs which have superior properties is coming into more common use but still is generally little known by enthusiasts. Catch up on these technologies here and reap the benifits. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
i spent over 2 hours watching, studying, and testing this video in my shop. I read your books years ago and used your teaching in the building of the L69 305 in my K Stock Automatic Monte Carlo SS. NHRA has the stock corrected HP of the engine at 248 hp. Using what I learned from drag racing KZ1000s and GS1100 Suzukis and the knowledge I gain reading your books Ive been able to take a .060 305 to 419 hp with a stock 1 piece seal block and 427 hp using a Dart 4 bolt block. Thats real horsepower with unported 081 center bolt heads with stock valve diameters, stock valve lift (.403 intake / .415 exhaust) a stock intake and Rochester Quadrajet. I am currently using a Manley spring because it seemed to work well but after watching this and learning some I am going to put the 305 dyno mule back to work with what I have learned. Im trying to get my car to give the Mopar 383s that own K/SA a shock. Theres a few that own everyone namely a guy in Arkansas with a 65 wagon thats bad. Thank you for teaching me some, in the words of Doc Holliday: Youre a peach of an engineer.
What heads you got on there? Just interested because everyone and their grandma always says get a 350. I have an 84 with a matching numbers L69 3ngine. And would like to take it up to at least 300hp
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I really enjoyed watching excuse me reading that. DV. Is so knowledgeable
🔔😎
Thank you DV & AW, and team. 👍
I'd like to see the tribute to Jacque and St. Jude's. It's #1.
God bless y'all. 😎
I knew the Beehive design would finally dominate in the end. But now, I have to make them work on my stuff. I've been buying springs and retainers up to move in this direction. Now this video. A great help. Thank you.
Top notch info as always, thank you sir.
I'm so happy he's on CZcams now, I've read two of his books now and learned a ton
Mr. Vizard you are truly a wizard.
Learning so much, thank you
Great insight
Tech development continues to climb to new heights
Absolutely fascinating, left me wondering about a lot too, which is a good thing! In particular I wondered about the viscous damping effects of the oil when the coils are close.
Man love the video,,,,watch and listen two or time
Good stuff David. Biggest problem I have with conical springs is getting suitable ones for the dinosaurs that I work on without having to do any machine work. Regards Greg
,,,,,What is the diameter of the conical springs..I'm hoping to use them on my Edelbrock performer rpm heads with the mech roller that I have......
I have made the comp cams ls springs fit a lot of motors. But not without machining. If it's just the guides there are easy to use guide cutters available
Dense content as usual. Thank you Sir.
Welcome to 1997 general motors called to say, glad you liked the beehive springs they began using on the 4.3 and 5.7 vortec, then went on to use in the LS1.
B.C. As GM changed the valve spring design, I sat in Troy, MI. to hear an engineer for over an hour talk about harmonics in the springs at speed. They can bounce or vibrate is a better word, as he shown us high speed camera / video of these springs in action at 0.500 lift at 6,000 RPM then at 0.550 lift then ramped up to 0.620 lift at 7,000 RPM when they matched harmonics and the springs would actually vibrate when opened and closed. I would have to find my notes but the piston speed on the 5.3L engine was crazy, like 430 feet per second on stock stroke. I was the only one in the front row, my favorite spot!
David Vizard has studied more books on physics than nerds have read "Spider Man" at a 3 day comic-convention.
DK, ASE Master Tech since 78.
Wanna hear something interesting? In 89 dodge used beehive springs in the caravan 3.3. I think that's pretty damn interesting tbh.
Wow. I ran the bee hives on my trophy stock mustang in 2006. I waa just looking at a set of heads with conical springs already installed. Thank you for the education. I really enjoyed thislesson.
I enjoyed your video on the springs.
One thing to think about is how the cam lobe shape is actually comprised of many sine waves at different phase angles and amplitudes to create its shape. These sine waves are frequency multiples of the fundamental frequency (cycles per sec) of the valvetrain. A lobe design could contain a lot more high frequency energy than it would seem on the surface. The lobe is fed through a valvetrain that's non linear so I'm not sure how you could accurately find these frequencies. FFT analysis of the lobe would only reveal part of the picture.
There was a really interesting article in Cycle World several years ago (when it was actually worth buying)
They did tests and plotted graphs of lift/rotation with radiused rockers (motorcycles don't use flat tappets)
Anyway, the graphs actually showed at some points the valve would be closing before it continued lift.
All the graphs looked like 'North Face of the Eiger' with some of the aftermarket having such a bad opening it caused valve float at lower than stock rpm.
I'm sure things have improved dramatically due to modern computers but I learned quite a lot from article
Thank you for the parts info and all the outstanding knowledge sharing . Respect.
I do have some questions on harmics .
TV thank you for all the details no one tells it like you do you have been there you done that I've read many books from engine builders and racers nobody tells it like you do brother
great info thanks
This a truly great channel. You Tube is a fantastic learning platform. You asked from criticism. Unfortunately I can't think of anything. Other than can you do a bit of unequal length headers on inline 4 and 6 cylinder engines. or just tuning in general on inline 4 and 6's. Or a look at the Yamy head that they did for Toyota. I liked the bit you did on the 2.3 Mazda. Thanks....
As a machinest I found this very fascinating.
David. Enjoy your videos. They are full of information I haven't found anywhere else on the tube. I have started watching yours and others . At 1.5 times playback speed and find I enjoy them more.
good job !!!
We got into racing a dirt track car for a little bit, and I forget the class, anyway, it requires mostly stock parts, as far as heads , intake, block, flat top piston, and flat tappet cam, under .500" lift I think, I never heard cams with such low lift before, and they decked the block, cut heads, even angle cut them, for 12:1, 13:1 compression, they was a few that ran auto trans, kept it in 2nd gear, (we had a manual 3speed, with 6.20:1 gear, 35x18 tires,+/- on15x12, and 14" rims, )
We were in a different class, but the guys in that class made just as much power as we did, we ran aftermarket intakes, headers, Holley carbs, I have hear stories of pistons out the deck, ,. And pistons all but touching the head at 6500, they wasn't contact, but you could see where the quench pad was on the piston, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't eventually make contact if the bearing wore the slightest, and it was turned to 7k! and they had the nastiest little cams, had to be 310° plus duration, i heard some were 400hp + with. Manifolds, quadrajet carbs and intake, they love to buy up aluminum qjet intakes, they ran 70's cars, some 80's V8 cars it's crazy, the power they made pushed parts beyond their intended power level, occasionally someone would try to sneak a 383 in, but I don't think they really did much better, I believe the intakes and exhaust was already choking the 355, adding more displacement just compounded the problem, i doubt they can say a stock engines requires , over 110 octane race fuel! Haha
Never heard of lift under .500 ? The class you are referring to has a .425 and some tracks a .450 lift limit
THANKS GOOD EDUCATIVE VIDEO.
Important video.
Glad you mentioned the Wright brothers.
It took about 50 years for piston crown 'squirters' to appear after they were used in piston engine aircraft to help cooling
About 80 years for beehive springs to get to automotive applications and 100 years for conical springs got there.
I think I'll dig out my aircraft piston engines books and speculate whats next. ( Turbo charger feeding super charger to get more boost and better efficiency?)
Didn't you write an article 'years ago' saying as a first year graduate you were working out valve spring resonances but quit the job placement because it was so boring?
Not sure when the spring testing was filmed but your dial indicator contact tip is the wrong thread.
Almost all the 'aftermarket' contact tips are 2.5mm ISO thread but the indicators come in two versions, 4x48 tpi and 2.5mm.
It doesn't seem to matter if indicator is Metric or Imperial which caused me a lot of confusion until I did some measuring, (I bought a 4x48 die to make extended 'probe' tips for checking motorcycle opening closing points to get around rocker arms and through valve caps)
I was expecting Imperial indicators to have 'American' threads and Metric to have metric thread, not 'here it is, good luck'
Thanks again!!
excellent video hat off sir im reading my 2 newly purchased vizard books and man im building now at 65 the best motors ive ever made im proud to say who gave me the knowledge at a very good price and promote his material i learn more in an hour than i ever could have scratching away making small costly mistakes
Thanks
Hi love information
I have wondered about the real differences between these types of springs for a long time now, but had not seen any apples to apples comparisons like this! I'm very curious about this stuff because I "seem" to have a weird valve float problem where if the engine revs at a certain rate, it will wind out to 6500-6800 no problem, but too quick or too slow, it gets "stuck" and wont wind past 5500. Since it didnt used to do this, and my valve springs are getting old, and may be getting tired, and are a typical straight rate spring/damper/ titanium retainer set-up, going to a beehive or tapered type might make some sense.
thanks david !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What about using double torsion springs to open and close the valves? You could also use a tapered wire to make the tapered spring. That would enable different pressures throughout the spring as it opens and closes.
Great info. I run those in my class 11 VW. Have your video guy get a shirt mic for you.
Genius
Do you sell the springs or know where I could get more info? Or are you just explaining the differences and it’s up to us to actually locate the correct springs? Truly interested. Thank you.
How would the conical springs hold up under constant 3800 RPM in an offshore Hi-performance boat? (SBC) With an occasional 5400 RPM blast? Thanks for your time.
FYI, I think that you will find that behive springs are standard on LS and most newer current motors. Personally I try to fit behive or conical on all motors that I build nowadays
Back again, to refresh my memory... and suggest a follow up? Cam manufacturers seem content to select identical springs [intake vs exhaust] despite other differences. They do face a challenge admittedly, not knowing what rockers & valves might be put in service. It makes sense taking similar ramp profiles into consideration, but valve mass finds no account. I'll pick a Manley spec [since I have them]: 2.02" intake is 113g, 1.60" exhaust is 94g. Should different spring specs be used for exhaust and free up a little hp? A 17% difference in mass just might find room for improvement, I would imagine.
Thank you, David. Do these better springs help in efficiency/horsepower and/ torque in normal driving conditions/rpm range? Thanks
Gm went to the beehive springs back in the 1990's even on the vortec 4.3-5.0-5.7. interesting, the 1996 Corvette lt1/lt4 did not use beehives. And they are a performance vehicle designed to be daily driven. It wasn't until gm released the ls, with lighter weight valves, lighter rocker arms, bigger cam core with gentler lobes that they were used for the LS1 Corvette. Maybe that helps. Valve train component selection is a very complex thing, there are no one size fits all answers. To specifically answer your question the answer is.. depends, maybe, sometimes.
@@b.c4066 Thanks. I'm learning so much from these videos.
That high speed footage was incredible.
Id love to see footage of the conical spring at high RPM.
Thank you so much David for all your books and videos.
You have taught me so much.
Lots of Love and Good Wishes from Australia.
👍
.025” from coil bind is interesting. I will see how many people take advantage of this because I hear people always saying .050 from coil bind is max.
How do those beehive springs hold up to a 2000 hp engine
How you doing tonight, David
Ford Australia used conical springs in it SOHC inline 6cyl engine from 1999
With a single coil there would also be less heat generated because the coils aren't rubbing.
Thanks again,,,,😁🤔👆👇💥💨👆👇💥💨
First production use of beehive was Chrysler 3.3 in 1989 in Dodge Caravan. Minivan tech. Mercedes has claimed to be first to have used beehives based I guess on having owned Chrysler at one time.
The weight of the entire spring and retainer is somewhat deceptive as it's the weight of the top of the spring (the moving part) which is what really matters. Some advanced calculus will be required to calculate the exact effect. Or just run it and see how it works.
Another factor: beehive is shorter spring for a given amount of lift. Allows shorter valve which can further reduce weight.
Bottom line: beehive wins. Until you go conical. Conical may be easier to wind than beehive (simpler machine to produce).
That is quite interesting and thanks for sharing. Of course the chevy nuts think chevy invented it and used it first. What I've noticed is chevy usually copy pastes what other guys do.
Love your videos but have a small complaint. The left side audio is louder while the right side is low on your introductions.
After decades in a dealer and independent shops a few times, I have loss of hearing. I listen using a pair of "Koss" headphones and heard no difference. Stricken with tinnitus as well, I don't know what to tell anyone as shops/dealers did not provide single use ear plugs, gloves or eye protection. If you knew about it and wanted it, you had to go buy it. I joke, but ask people what sunscreen was called in 1970, dirt!
DK, ASE Master Tech since 78.
Always like to use a Fact to Build on. and then opinion is like a used part. Lol. Have fun upgrading lights in shop. Ps. Don’t forget to leave a link,for your charity to St. Jude. Thanks all .
Ok got it! BUT!!! Can you have to much? The cam people tell you 130 set and you put in a spring that is 200 are you not going to destroy your valve train. I know you can fudge the numbers some but how much is to much?
David you are incorrect about GM using BeHive springs, the Nail Head Buick engines from the 50s had BeHive springs
And so the hunt begins for someone making beehive or conical springs for Triumph T140 head
Why are we seeing the same videos released over a year ago on this channel as new videos in our notifications? Good content, but it's last year content geesh
Because his other channel was locked out when his partner unexpectedly passed so they are re-releasing on this one.
You get what you pay for.
Double Springs is STILL most manufacturer's Choice.
Ease, cost AND adequacy still RULES the Day.
I have to disagree @3:00, you measured the entire coil but not the entire coil contributes to sprung mass, only a portion of the weight of the coil is attributed to the sprung weight of the valve, the rest of the weight of the coil is un-sprung, so it's not like moving to Ti valves David.
Kind regards Shane R VK1NME.
titanium scores easy which sucks. i thinks it’s great for no wear items like exhaust
Liner springs, David you should re think what your saying about weight. And explain operating pressures over weight,not trying to be a smart arse by the way 👍🏻
conical spring are std on many motor bikes
Sure, it's a good idea, except for the lack of protection from dropping a valve in your expensive engine. If they come up with a fix for this shortcoming, I'll be the first in line. They put most of the energy on the top two winds, causing premature failure. Don't believe me? Check for people on-line, they'll tell you themselves. There should be some kind of failsafe, like an extremely fine wire inner spring for one of an engines weakest links. I'm sure that they work great, untill the inevitable.
Seems to me the oil temps should drop significantly with beehive and tapered springs.
Play at 1.25 speed and he speaks at a normal pace - too tedious otherwise.
Thank you .👍much better speed of video
this is some good info but its so much to take in.