F1's unexpected early action to fix its overtaking problem
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- čas přidán 4. 06. 2024
- With Formula 1’s next major rules overhaul due in 2026, everyone expected the next couple of seasons to be ones of stability. But the FIA has other ideas.
It now plans to tweak the rules in 2025 in a bid to improve the quality of the racing.
While the technical regulations will remain fundamentally the same, the hope is that some seemingly small modifications in 2025 in areas that have been found to be problematic will positively influence the aerodynamic wake characteristics.
But hang on, you might ask, wasn’t this problem meant to be solved by the major rule changes in 2022? Well, the ground-effect cars did improve the problem of dirty air but they didn’t solve it.
00:00 Getting worse
02:14 What will change?
03:59 What about 2026?
05:24 A recent example
08:18 Can this be solved?
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I prefer the Verstappen regulations: Skinnier tires, V8 turbo Hybrids, more drag, no DRS, lighter cars.
Yeh, not the V8 bit as they sound like shit, much prefer a V10 but that will never happen
@@QuotidianStupidity, the V8 F1 engines sounded sublime. Perfect mix between roar and scream.
@@1106Winter imo there is no roar, just earsplitting headache, especially in an enclosed grandstand like Nurburgring
@@QuotidianStupidity okay boomer
@@josesammut9396 good one, did you come up with that all by yourself?
I am all for making the cars smaller, obviously it reduces weight because there is less car but it also helps the racing. Smaller cars means everyone has more room on track.
Monaco
They're making the cars slightly less long. By 30cm. For perspective, this will make them roughly as long as a GT car. 30cm isn't going to make a difference. Not to mention there's zero evidence size matters. There's way more overtaking at Monaco in 2022 and 2023 then there was from 2000-2005, despite having significantly larger cars. They just don't show 90% of the overtakes at any Grand Prix on the TV, so people think no overtaking happens. It's not true, there's dozens and dozens of overtakes every weekend, we just get to see only 5 or 6 of them because the cameras refuse to watch anyone except the top 3.
The 30cm reduction in length is close to nothing. Size and weight is an issue, but they can't make the cars small and light enough because of all the safety measures and the modern turbo-hybrid engine formula. Getting rid of those is not really an option -- the former is obvious, the latter mainly due to car manufacturing and sustainability trends (a good goal if you ask me).
@@zulubunsen9067 I completely disagree with the last part. Synthetic fuels are a much better option than saddling the cars with heavy, complicated hybrid systems. F1 is going in the wrong direction by shifting the power more to the electrical side.
Same goes for the entire automobile industry. This push to electrify everything is going to be more harmful to the environment than burning fossil fuels. Instead we should focus on adapting internal combustion engines to reduce their carbon output. Synthetic fuels seem to be the best way to do this.
@@rars0ni understand your way of thinking and for racing, synthetic is undoubtedly better. But you fail to take into account that f1 is, besides marketing, primarily used as an R&D machine that creates innovations road cars can adopt later. And there is approximately 0% chance that the cars of the future will use synthetic fuels. They will be electric, with some hybrids sprinkled in here and there. And once f1 is not useful for innovation, manufacturers will stop putting money into our beloved sport, which might very well be the end of it. Might not sound realistic but if formula E deregulated a bit and let teams create their own chassis, wings, engines, and so on, there is no reason why manufacturers would pour money into f1 instead of fe. It has grown immensely since its start, and no matter how much people try to make fun of it, theres no real reason to believe that it will stop growing anytime soon. Its sad, but if we want the sport to keep its soul instead of becoming a retro car festival, the way is hybrid.
The bigger the cars, the bigger the aero displacement. It won't get rid of the issues, but getting the current behemoths down a size or 3 reduces almost all problems with current F1, whilst improving many others such as the spectating experience as the cars appear far more agile and ultimately, fast when on track.
This should be a number one priority, like the reduction of dirty air wake was for the 2022 rules. But it doesn't seem to be even being taken that seriously by the FIA.
I wonder when we will reach 1000KG cars as it seems to be heading in that direction.
I'd like them to come down to 600kg again. They looked so much more on the edge back then. I know the current ones are faster, but not as exciting to watch. Watching a lap of ANY driver from the early 2000s is magic, they are always dancing and sliding especially in slow corners. And the reaction on turn in is brutal.
That's because those cars had way less downforce
That's because those cars raced at the limit. Today F1 racing is 4+ seconds slower than qualifying because it is a giant conservation effort. Bring back refueling, lighten up on park forme adjustments of the cars for conditions. Also deploy DRS tactically like indycar push to pass and put a time limit on it
Going down that low will not really be possible because it would heavily compromise the safety of the drivers. Increase in driver safety is the main component that drove up the weight of these cars.
These hybrid PUs are also pretty heavy and complex and the teams don't want to go back to conventional ICE systems
@@barnubusfox2911Just gonna ignore that heavier cars have more inertia, which leads to them being harder to stop and harder to contain during accidents?
You really bought into all this “safety” propaganda, hah? Show me a case where a 600kg car literally broke up and exploded like Grosjean’s did - you can’t.
@@F-Mansafety propaganda? Don't be silly. There were plenty of horrendous accidents back in the day and many recent accidents would have been fatal without modern safety equipment. People love to talk about the early 2000 cars, probably because they were kids back then and everything is more exciting when you are nostalgic about it, but they forget that most of the overtaking happened through fuel strategy in the pits
The sad truth is the faster you make cars the harder they are to race. You can make it easier perhaps but it's always going to be a problem unless you are willing to nerf the laptimes.
Well it helps if you have less top speed (less power + more drag) and a ton of cornering speed. You can keep decent lap times that way.
F1 cars are still too fast on straights. And they are going to reduce drag, this won't help. Just allowing them to follow closer is not enough. You can see this in Indycar when they race at superspeedways compared to previous aero. They can follow closer but when Dallara changes stuff and makes the car less dragy they don't race as good.
They are also too heavy, you need lighter cars to race.
More Colin Chapman and less Bugatti Veyron
@@Willbrse The drag was higher previously and all that did was make sure the guy behind had zero grip to even get into a position that you could exploit going down a straight with drag. You generally ended up stuck a second and a half back till you're tyres overheated due to the outwash from the high drag car in front.
2021 cars were faster than 2022 cars but there was good competetion
@@braveheart4603 The drag was high before but they had enough power to overcome it, that's the problem. Drag by itself will do nothing. You need less power so slip stream becomes more valuable.
And as you mentioned, tires are a big problem... Pirelli needs to do better or get replaced.
See the good example of power x drag in Super Formula, GT500 cars (Super GT) and in another extreme, Mazda MX Cup at any track with longer straight, especially Daytona.
The formula for good racing is found in power x drag. If you get that right dirt air won't be much of a problem (as long as your tires are good). Ofc for the cars to be able to race closer (with or without ground effect) firt they need to be close enough, and that's the problem in F1... someone is always kicking everyone's else butts.
I think it would be quite interesting if there was a championship with concepts from the 60's using modern materials, safety and engines. No wings allowed, only mechanical grip. Just for the fun of it.
I promise, you aren’t the only one
@@Mr.Wonder1ngagreed! Bring back the excitement! 2022 wasn't too bad though, but this year sucks big time! These new cars are huge, and heavy!
True dat!
Kimi would join. ZULUL
That’s basically Formula Ford, iirc.
gods being an F1 rule-maker must feel like a Sisyphean task. with every rule you create to promote closer racing, the teams develop alternatives to make the racing worse
They should reduce the maximum weight by a few hundred Kilos and shrink the cars
@@QuotidianStupidityit's their plan in 2026
well it was fine for decades: the big problems seem to have come when, hybrid era? turbo-hybrid era for sure.
@@Frank-ed7hj F1 has had issues with a lack of overtaking since as long as I can remember. Certainly from at least early 2000’s, that why they made the cars slimmer and changed the tyres to have the stripes
@@Ariespradana13lol by them increasing the electrification of the cars with heavier batteries good luck to them!
DROP ARAMCO
Why?
i love Aramco 😍🥰
Beheading asides, they artificially inflate oil price to pay for these sportswashings.
@@bigt6359They're the Saudi state oil company responsible for fueling the jet planes that bomb innocent Yemeni civilians
Exactly! I've disliked every aramco video so far, I really hope they dump them.
Also make the cars narrower. That will minimise spray, reduce wake and improve racing on narrower circuits.
Cars are too big and heavy now, they need to become lighter and smaller, but the hybrid engines don’t make it easy, i think they need to push synthetic fuels which will probably help hybrid and engine package become smaller
How would synthetic fuels make an engine smaller in any meaningful way?
@@pookachu64the hybrid engine is part of the NetZero 2030 initiative to make F1 more sustainable. Synthetic fuel improves the carbon emission problem, so the hybrid engines aren’t a necessity, and the V8 or V10 ICEs are less weight than the hybrids
gets rid of the hybrid elements and battery. @@pookachu64
Agree. Cars are about 150-200kg too heavy.
Hopefully, F1 back with 2014-2016 cars
5.2m is enough
The cars need to be substaintially smaller. The reduction in size they're talking about just takes them back to 2020 levels. Not small enough, they were too big then too.
Ah yes the standard f1 cycle
Regulation change 1 to clean up following cars air
Sub change to clean up things teams are doing to ruin this
Change 2 to make the engines more efficient for the environment
Change 3 make the cars big as hell to screw with what we’ve been working towards
What you mean? I'm sure doubling the size of the car's battery will have 0 increase in weight and size. The FIA must know what they are doing...
@@Left4Coragem we’re not in stage 3 yet.
2009 cleaned up the airflow by “simple wings because the old regs had so many aero elements and created a ton of dirty air. (They also looked like they’d be in the next star wars movie)
2012 banned the blown diffuser but the Coanda effect still worked
2014 introduced the v6 engines
2017 made the big wide body cars come into effect which completely undid any effort to clean up the air
2019 they banned bits on the front wing which were creating too much outwash
2021 they took it a step further and cut out a piece of the floor and banned slots
2022 they made ground effect regulations to clean up the air flow
2025 they are making changes to counteract what teams are doing to create outwash
2026 new engine regulations
See the pattern I was saying?
@@Tyler_Evans0411 Nope.
The FIA had introduced the TD39 last year that has limited the floor and ground floor effect efficiency. Consequently, teams have tried to regain the lost downforce with aero twicks that create or are sensitive to turbulences...
TD39 would not have stopped the teams chase for the outwash/airflow manipulation for performance benefits. It’s a reliable way to improve performance on the cars which teams have very much familiarized themselves with. You can blame TD39 if you’d like but it’s a fair point that this isn’t the first time F1/FIA have imposed significant rule changes to fix dirty air only for teams to chase after means that led to dirty air all over again.
The only way to stop teams from making over body aero tweaks that are sensitive to turbulence is to lock them down entirely, and focus only on the floor.
@@Appletank8or we can do so much better than that
Just use downforce-to-drag ratio limit. Works so good on Hyper car both from innovation and balance
@@philipbarton3456And you gotta make the rules to where that's impossible, they restricted the bageboards, front and rear wings but then found loopholes on the endplates, floor and area below the mirrors.
@@acegarcia3719 which is difficult because the teams can and will find ways around that. It’s the story of Motorsport as a whole. Find a loophole and exploit it. Even in “spec” series things aren’t really spec. You give these Motorsports engineers a book of rules, they will find ways to exploit them. Something as seemingly simple like NASCAR has exploits. SuperFastMatt, a CZcamsr now but previously an ex Tesla engineer and ex NASCAR engineer said in that sport it was about finding smart ways to look dumb to exploit the rules there. Adrian Newey wrote in his book that he sees himself less as an engineer and more someone who reads the rules and finds ways to exploit them. If Newey, a motorsport great, has that mentality it’s fair to assume everyone else does it too. You can guarantee even the current dominant car, while praised for its aero efficiency isn’t just good because of its aerodynamics alone, you can guarantee it has its own exploits. They are just very well hidden.
What I see happening: Ferrari, Mercedes and McLaren, maybe even Aston Martin catch up to RB in 2024 (during 2024, not in the beginning of the season). Here comes the rule tweaks in 2025 and RB goes back to dominating by 10 to 30 seconds per race. lol
"Catch up" is too rich, I believe they will get closer but not catch up. The rest I agree with.
The Newey Effect …
I don't think anyone will catch up next year unfortunately
No one is catching Redbull until the reg changes of 2026.
As I always say, instead of trying to solve this by making rules around car design... Just set limits about how much turbulence a car is allowed to create, and if they do you give them enough ballast to make it completely undesirable to create that much turbulence in the first place.
A good step towards this would be making the cars smaller.
I heard a certain team being unable to design a proper car lobbied for higher ground clearance. Maybe just maybe a big portion of the loss comes from that part.
Oh ffs stfu with your fan boy BS...all teams complain and try to bend the regs ......maybe if the FIA allowed F1 to be what it was designed to be (innovative and cutting edge ) then racing would be more a spectacle instead of trying every !&*$$( thing to make racing worse with restriction after restriction
You heard wrong then.
The teams were always going to find creative ways to find more downforce. Thats their job afterall.
This will just keep getting worse and worse if the FIA doesn't intervene and clamp down on trick aero.
@@barnubusfox2911 I hope you have a degree in aerodynamics to make that blunt statement. Because higher ground clearance means less downforce from below the car. Which also means less downforce generated in a place where it is more resistant to dirty air. The entire reason to go ground effect is to make downforce more resistant to dirty air. Elevating the car lowers ground effect. Thus making the problem bigger again and making the entire concept of these cars less effective.
Smaller and lighter cars will be a step in the right direction. Look at the size difference from the r25 compared to the r20, it's pretty mad.
Conclusion: we should go back to 60's F1 cars....
a bit dangerous but okay 😂
2014-2016 seems perfect
10% chance of death per gp? Sounds like fun....😒
At the very least let's have a test day with no wings just to see what kind of mechanical grip these things make
@@Ariespradana13Yuck
Make the front wing smaller within the front wheels, make the rear wing smaller and higher and make the under body aero more powerful. Also make them smaller and lighter.
This idea reminds me of the design they had in 2009. lovin it.
Don't bother, they say that want to improve racing and overtaking but then they reduce the length of DRS Zones of the circuits so...
This is the way!
Sounds like 1988. Add some turbos and we'll have ourselves a proper racing series.
@@oscardbg9654That was a silly decision, shoulda known the cars dirty air would get worse and therefore keep it as is.
There's a very simple way to make the cars smaller and lighter...drop out the battery and reintroduce refueling so the car doesn't need to carry the whole load of fuel.
Simple, easy and practical.
I agree with this. Indy allows refueling. I don’t remember seeing any injuries with the gasoline fires anytime recently.
@@frankm5150 Wec endurance league also eliminated any danger with their hoses by the use of sequential stops, while the car is refueling no other service can be done on it. Nascar eliminated hoses entirely by just having it in a canister. Even in F1, fuel fires were a rarity and the most dangerous insident happened because the team altered the flow of flue illegaly to refuel faster.
Of all things in motorsport, refueling is one of the least dangerous.
Pretty sure the main problem is how big the cars are, and not just aerodynamic. These cars still have some great mechanical grip considering how big the tires are. More turbulence is linked to a better slipstream too as you said so... well the problem might be that once you arrive in the corner, you don't have much room. Lighter cars would be also a bit more gentle on the tire, and I guess that mean you can push more even in dirty air... So yeah, please, 50 to 100 kg lighter cars, and smaller cars.
I think 2021 showed something the FIA need to realise. The best way to make great racing is not specific regulations but rather stability in regulations. Both 2014 and 2022 has shown that in a big rule change one or a few teams will pull away and dominate and then the further the regulations go (2014-2021) the field get closer and closer.
Problem is that with all of the gimmicks (DRS, batteries, recycled engines, shared parts, blah blah), the only way to get an advantage is aero. Make the card smaller and lighter (while still maintaining safety) and let them build monster engines again, preferably v-12's or 10's, loosen up all of these regulations, and let them compete in all aspects of design. You will see a mix of teams concentrating on engines and others on aero. Different car and driver combos will have advantages in different areas of the track and you will have lots of possibilities for overtaking, just by the nature of the relative advantages.
The front wing is a major contributor to outwash and the wider the wing is the easier it is to push outwards around the front tyres. So the FIA should consider sacrificing some front downforce and make the wings narrower like they were in the early 2000's (no more than about half the width of the front wheels.
This would mean the design philosophy would likely shift to inwash (in the past this was done to energise the barge boards) which could be directed under the floor to generate more ground effect. End result might mean less outwash, more clean air coming out of the diffusers, less drag and more overall downforce making it easier to follow. Also would allow some wheel bumping without wrecking someone's race.
The reduced front end grip could be balanced out by a lower DF rear wing (another source of dirty air) which reduces the DRS effect but also allows closer following.
Better still get rid of DRS all together and give every driver 60 seconds of unrestricted fuel flow per race to be used whenever/where ever they want.
bring back the 2000's in-wash front wings.
particularly 2000 to 2008 car design without aerodynamics wheel covers and engine covers
My opinion is that F1 is having an identity crisis.
They want to bill themselves as the pinnacle of motorsports and encouraging the absolute bleeding edge of automotive racing development.
But they also want to put on the kind of impressive racing that's only really possible with a spec series, and are constantly limiting what teams CAN do to develop their cars.
Which do you guys want?!
I agree with this they wanna say they're the most technological series in the world but they banned modern suspension in 2022 we have god knows how many spec parts and near enough spec parts right now and massive restrictions in regs the most restrictive regs ever to the point we had a one car concept meta within 1.25 years of the new regs which honestly has never happened before
I honestly see WEC as pushing the technological envelope more than F1 MotoGP too as well
The sport is far too restrictive right now and the budget cap is the antithesis of F1. With all due respect if you cant compete financially in F1 theres 1000 other series for you to race in it doesnt have to be F1
That's why I watch Indycar in addition to F1. With F1 I get to watch "the pinnacle of motorsport". Indycar gives me a spec series with impressive racing. They're different things and I'm fine with that.
It's way more about the tyres. They need a wider temperature working range but faster wear.
Ligher, narrower, shorter.. With strong engines.. IMO thats how we can fix this
Can we just call it what it actually is, the anti-Redbull regulations? The new regulations didn’t take into account the Adrian Newey effect. Basically he will just break the 2025 changes too.
Why not restrict the front wing width? Then you will have less efficient front wings to get back the lost downforce and therefore higher drag, with less outwash
smaller, lighter cars without DRS will make a huge change. if the cars can actually fit on track side-by-side, and don't have DRS as a crutch to get past each other on straights, you'll see fewer overtakes but higher quality of the racing. There's absolutely zero correlation between the amount of back and forth passing and the actual quality of the racing. People look back fondly at Monaco 1992, even though it was literally just several laps of Mansell trying and failing to get past a slower Senna. It's about building tension and excitement, not artificially inflating overtaking figures
What overtaking problem?
If Red Bull and Verstappen weren't 2 million miles away from everybody then we would have probably the most exciting season since 2012
Overtaking is neither too hard or too easy, it's perfect
Same goes for 2021 rule changes for floor which affected merc badly
most teams have complained about overtaking being harder since the more the teams upgrade the more dirty air they produced due to the increase of downforce. even Max complained about it while being stuck behind Sainz
because changing up the regulations is always an opportunity to close the gap to RB. sort of ironic as the cost cap is part of the regulations that was meant to bring the field closer but now serves to magnify the advantage that RB has. credit where credit is due as RB did nail the 2022 regulations but it's pretty much impossible to catch them until this regulation change.
TD39
@@no1washerezzCost cap is not really to blame, Aston and McLaren are making progress under it which they couldn't pre cost cap and besides it took major reg changes and 8 years to catch Merc pre cost cap while it's not even been 2 years for Red Bull's dominance.
F1 clearly didn't do a good enough job, they shoulda realized that teams were going to use the endplates, wing angle adjuster, floor edges, and the opening under the mirror to try to create outwash.
Wasn't it the case that we start to have terrible races as soon as FIA introduced that technical direction last year at SPA, due to "certain" team complaining about the floor height in an endeavor to fix their "fu*king" car design, which they ultimately abandoned less than a year later?
If you watch the video, ride height isn’t impacting downforce loss of the car behind.
They didn`t abandon anything, other teams were just cruising around going slow doing nothing productive
Ferrari was also bouncing, the lower the car runs the better
@@matthewcamina8508 Well no, if all the downforce is generated by underbody airwork, then who cares about dirty air, it would have zero impact. However, if you increase the ride height, you reduce the underbody downforce, which means a larger portion of the downforce is through overbody, that is subject to dirty air. It's simple as that, and by the look of it, you aren't smartest of the bunch.
@@walter1824 You can't seriously argue they didn't abandon their zero pod design, which is a major contributor to their car being bad last year.
@@jkliao6486 Abandoned yes, but sidepods have nothing to do with bouncing Ferrari was still bouncing even with sidepods.
Heck, even this year the W14 was bouncing in Spa with sidepods if you check the fastest lap award.
W13 was also the third fastest car or even second in high downforce tracks and finished 1-2 in Brazil
I think we're overlooking the hidden genius of Ed here. It's time for "Racing in a Vacuum!"
While even relatively minor tweaks for a season before considerable technical regulation changes are always somewhat risky, I understand FIA's motive to act sooner rather than wait for the next cycle change.
Additionally, I doubt these relatively minor tweaks would truly impact competitive order versus entirely stable regs.
At least they're more justified & profound for the general issue than the 2019 tweaks.
You can thank Toto Wolff for the raised floor height which makes following another car harder.
It definitely doesn't help but the trick aero that teams have implemented for this year are the biggest contributor of this dirty air problem.
The raising of the floor edge thing actually brought the field together. Just look at the quali times. Its tight out there. RB being a whole 1s ahead is the only anomaly.
@@barnubusfox2911 raising the floor ride height meant reducing the downforce generated from the floor. That's why teams are extracting that lost downforce by using over the body aero elements that create a lot of turbulent air.
One Area I think is not good for overtaking is the drs trains. I Think that having a fixed amount of deployment in drs or just use a 200 sec push to pass would be effective. What do you guy's think ?
I don't think those would really make a difference.
I say get rid of it altogether. A pass should be engineered over many laps and hard to do, showing a driver's true skill, not a video game button application.
@@DANA-lx8cvNope. That's a horrible take. You won't see much over taking at all. Even the drivers are in favour of DRS and see its necessity.
@@charleswilfred6463 Perhaps, but somehow we had good F1 racing for decades before this was added. There is that. Surely there has to be a more organic and less gimmicky solution to allow cars to follow more closely. Aero, tires, whatever. The laws of physics certainly have not changed in the last few years.
The way I see it, F1 will alway be F1 and there are always gonna be some loop holes teams will find to get an edge.
@@DANA-lx8cv
What if they do these test on any individual car and they wouldn't be allowed go over 25% of dirty air? So not restricting techniques to prevent going over, prevent the cars going over the limit (I believe it's like that in WEC for downforce and engine power)
Because the % of loss in downforce changes based on the follower a Mercedes following a Ferrari loses more than a RB following a Ferrari, that would implicate in a reverse outwash tech war where teams would find ways to generate more dirty air since if any car loses more than 35% of downforce the development freezes and no one else can develop since the grid reaches “maximum dirty air”
It would also create a dirty air currency on the grid, where teams Would try to lose downforce in dirty air to stop the rivals developments “I’m losing too much downforce behind their car, they must stop development”
Would there be a way to measure and regulate the wake produced? So the development race would be to find creative ways of creating grip or downforce which down create as much dirty air?
This would be so much better than the way they are going now where they basically take away all room for development.
It's a bit like crash tests. You don't tell car companies how they have to build their car for it to be safe, you just measure if it is indeed safe.
This narrator is a fucking energy vampire.
Why doesn't FIA just provide specification on the how much outwash/wake a car can generate instead of changing rules every couple of years paying catch up plugging loopholes on the aero rules
I'm not a redbull fan, but this is just anti redbull rule change. Without redbull in the season it would be classed as one of the best and rules would never change
Is it? All the teams have these aero devices.
It's not an anti Red Bull change. Most of Red Bull advantage is fundamental to the way their chassis is produced and how it interacts with the floor and the rest of the aero elements. Even if you remove some elements, you can't stop the fact that fundamentally, the chassis is just better, I see no evidence that this changes anything. Ultimately for 2025, just like every year since these regs came into force, the teams will go back to the drawing board and take what they've learned and apply it, so what's to lose?
Did you not watch the video? This will hurt red bull the least in all likelihood, as they have the best floor and getting more downforce from that than any other team.
I disagree. As a Redbull fan these changes are for the entire field and desperately need to be implemented. And with Newey and all the advantages the whole package already hold these will end up affecting everyone equally. Well may Merc more as it ruins their end plate advantages.
So, 2026 cars will be revealed arround 2025
if they can shorten the wheelbase can they make the cars thinner so we can see good racing in monaco for the first time in a while
I'm still baffled by the FIA wanting to implement active aerodynamics for 2026.. it will give the cars more downforce in the corners which will make it harder to follow other cars, and will also decrease the drag on the straights, meaning slipstream effect will be even less than with the current cars...
Its completely unnecessary and will only make racing worse.
It was expected with cars developement, because teams will always try o find more aerodinamic performances while making it difficult to follow. The spirit of the rules has to be followed, and tweaked when necessary.
take the front and rear wing off and make the car completely reliant on ground effect and that will solve 90% of the problems
Now hear me out.... Why not remove most restrictions and rules? Why not give teams more of a carte blanche and see what kind of novelties they come up with? F1 has always been the pinnacle of motorsport, tech and innovation. But now it is so far limited within boundaries that there is only so much teams can innovate on... I just want to see whats the fastest thing possible.
Unfortunately, you would end up with vacuum cleaners with 8 wheels, no safety devices and 10000 horsepower from rocket engines running on hypergolics
You end up doing something like that, and half the grid will end up leaving before the end of the decade
Fans would leave in droves because they want something closer to spec racing even if they don’t want to admit it
There is a obviously no silver bullet regarding the “overtaking” problem - imo the main issue is the performance differential that still exists. Otherwise DRS/KERs are still relied upon by the following car - so arguably as long as that is still the case overtaking could always be viewed as a problem depending on your point of view
If they wan smaller/lighter car, the quickest way is to bringing back refueling and reduce the fuel tank by 50%. So we can save 50kg alone from reduced fuel capacity. Structure and material use also will be reduced because smaller size.
But if they will increase the battery size and bringing active aero, i doubt it will happen.
Congratulations on the 1 Million Subs!
FIA sets rules
Teams find ways around
FIA complains and sets new rules
Teams find ways around
The never-ending cycle
Return the cars to pre 2016 width will certainly help.
Bring back refueling, allow for 150Kg of fuel for the race, get rid of the hybrid systems, stick in a high revving V6 of >2L and you'll get good racing from the loss of weight and diminished size.
Outwash will unfortunately always stay. Over the last decade and a half or so all engineers in F1 learned how effective it was and you can't unlearn that. They will do whatever to create outwash no matter what the rules say. In my opinion one of the best solutions is smaller cars and less aerosurface, simply less of a car to disturb the air. Unfortunately 30cm and 50kg won't cut it, would love to see those doubled or tripled at least.
The fact is no matter what the regulations or attempt to slow cars down, engineers always find a way to recover the lap time and downforce.
The biggest problem is that modern f1 cars are way too big and heavy, they need to drop at least 200 kg’s
Cars are just too large. If there even is a “battle” in the mid-field, maybe two cars swapping positions over a few laps, this is now the highlight of the entire race. Literally, it will be featured in the F1 highlight video, because it is one of the lone examples of actual racing.
It is clear that they know that the appalling lack of parity isn’t good for fans. It is also clear, that they don’t want to do what is necessary to remedy the situation. It isn’t strange to see 15-20 lead changes in a single Indy Car race. I don’t need to tell you which is more exciting to watch.
All they have to do is make the cars smaller
Why not just enforce how air should flow around the car rather than the geometry/shape of the aerodynamic parts? Yes there may be less innovation but the priority is to reduce as much dirty air as possible
I think overtaking is slightly overrated, people immediately correlate overtaking with "good racing" but there is so much more to a race, china 2016 had a lot of overtakes but not a lot of people remember the race apart from the pitlane stuff. cota 2021 was a banger race and there wasn't much overtaking then, because it was about strategy and tension.
I am not saying overtaking is bad, or that more overtaking wouldn't be good at all, but I do think fans tend to OBSESS over overtaking instead of any other aspect of racing.
facts
Agreed. A single well planned and even slightly risky pass on the last lap of a race is so much more exciting than people swapping positions every lap by gliding by while pressing a button. If you want gladiator style racing, and that is fun to watch too, there is Nascar and Indycar.
They've made the cars less draggy by the Nature of using ground effect more heavily for downforce, and are now having overtaking problems because slipstream is less effective with less draggy cars, meanwhile the teams have immediately tried to increase outwash as it's the best way to have a faster car
not easier exactly to be faster, but get the side benefit of hindering anyone following too close
What happened to immediately outlawing changes that give aero-outwash even if they’re “legal” did that just go out with FIA technical team change? Or did it get a legal challenge?
More reliance on the ground effect will increase the spray during wet conditions. That's the other aero problem that everyone has a "why don't they just" suggestion about.
Oh well, after a brilliant season this year I'm looking forward to real racing in next year's Indycar season.
They are going to try and get a redo of 2021 where the intentionally hamstrung Merc to allow a close fight with RB but with the opposite parties this time.
No, 2021 rules were not designed to slow down Mercedes, and the 2025 rules are not meant to slow down Red Bull either.
Question is, will it be close enough that they can hand pick a champion of their choice in the last race again?
@@DANA-lx8cv The question is, will it be close enough that one of the championship contender teams need to start systematically ram their rivals out of the track?
@@patepulkkinenvtec2403 As long as they keep Max under control should not be a problem, lol.
how long do they run with the same battery. or can they change the battery during the season.
I think they get like 2 or 3 ers systems per year. I believe that's the battery. Any more you get a grid drop penalty etc.
Outside of making everything aero spec idk what they can do to get on top of the current issue seem it just come back to the same issue
Well, with a freeze on engine development, of course they've been spending all their budgets on aerodynamics!
One sure way to prevent the front wing being used to generate outwash would be to simply remove the front wings altogether. Forcing drivers to actually slow down for corners would be absolutely certain to improve the racing.
There’s always going to be a loss when teams keep gaining performance.
I agree. It's to late to change the rules for 2024.
Want to reduce the outwash from the front wing ? Simple. REDUCE it width so that it fits entirely within the front wheels. Making it wider have been a huge mistake. Then, make it straight again. The change to it's current chape was done purely for aesthetics reason, and increased the outwash problem as a side effect.
They need to make the aero regulations results based, instead of design based. So the FIA should wind tunnel each car and measure the wake, outwash, etc…
Might as well just go to spec cars, then …
@@Clyde-2055 no there’s still a lot of drag vs. downforce they can design. Just as long as they keep the wake clean.
@@sheldonong7648 - Yeah, they’re already doing that very thing with the WEC Hypercars. On top of that, of course, they adopted BOP guidelines, which amounts to penalizing the best and brightest. No thanks …
When you start to make racing “outcome-based” vs. design-based, it become a show rather than a sport.
If that’s what fans want, fine, but many series that tried just that very thing failed because of it. And there are plenty of spec series out there, but few constructor’s series.
Verstappen and Perez don't seem to have a problem following the cars they are chasing down. Sounds like the other teams need to fix their cars. 🤷♂️
Cause their cars are much faster. Remember how many times regulations were changed for nerfing mercedes and ferrari during dominant times. Now it is going to happen to redbull. Nothing new.
Why didn't they explore smaller winglets in the rear corners vs a single rear wing? Having an open center section in the rear would help reduce the down force loss
Bit extreme to use the 1960’s as an example. The wings and side pods and ducts etc, can all be simplified without going back to the Stone Age of aerodynamics.
As jenson button wrote in his book “as downforce increases the racing always gets worse up the category’s” . That’s f1. The rules are already far too restrictive. The hybrid is complete garbage. They need to lose all the hybrid weight and atleast 50 more as they already have said. Stick 3L v10s In. No drs. Smaller tyres and not Pirelli’s. And use indycar style push to pass. Refuelling would be good too and would also massively reduce more weight and see Cars pushing harder more often.
TD39 took away close racing. Remember Charles vs Max early 2022? If Ham was faster and porpoising, do you think he'd have whinged about his back and appealed for the rule change?
Yes he would. You cannot possibly imagine going over 300kmph and shaking like that. Have you seen the cockpit footage of the porpoising.
@@shreyass2447 That's his team's problem, then. They shouldn't have designed such an awful car.
I sure hope 2024 cars won't be heavy with little slipstream effect as they're now and unable to follow as in 2021 at the same time :)
So we have all the heft without the speed of the 2019~2021 era cars.
Curious, what is the problem with improving the car’s mech grip instead of aero? Use active suspension and traction control then reduce reliance from aero downforce, wouldn’t that solve the car following issue that they are having?
hmmm... imagining a modern open wheel series with no wings and very little downforce. that could be fun
Why not reduce front wing width by 200-300mm? That would ensure that whatever fancy end plate designers come up with is facing the middle of a tire and has limited scope for diverting air around it.
But the surest way to minimise downforce lost in the wake of other cars is to minimise overall downforce. This is the primary reason why GT and touring cars can race so closely, unlike F1. Any loss of downforce is making a much smaller impact on their grip levels.
at this rate F1 would end up like Indy or F2, a same chasis for all teams, engine from 1 or two manufacturers and just a couple of areas that the teams could tinker with, basically the same car but with different liveries
F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsports, the pinnacle of technology and innovations yet all i see is infinite red tape hindering everything
bring back smaller cars and refueling. let strategy come back into it and mix it up a bit.
I still believe it could have been implemented in 2024. by increasing CFD and maybe even budget to compensate. Even if would remain the same, impact would be across the field and hardly someone would get advantage. Somehow I do not believe 2024. cars have already produced parts in September. Especially since we always have teams struggling to produce stuff even for first test. Or I am wrong?
instead of being more restrictive with regs around different areas of the car, could they not instead be less restrictive while giving a limit to air load loss from a given distance behind the cars at a given straight line speed that teams have to meet (e.g. 30%)
I honestly don’t think that close racing is an issue with f1. The issue is money. If you look at the standings right now, apart from red bull it’s actually really close. As a verstappen fan, they need to work on preventing the teams from getting such big advantages over others like merc had from 2014 and red bull to now. They need to level the field out.
Without all these rule changes, they should have had a limit on overall air disturbance allowed to cars behind.
Unless they use 22nd century drag and dirty air, then nothing will change, as it has for the last 40yrs. I my view they must put in effect a chimney on the rear diffuser. The higher up this gets kicked, the closer the racing. The surface aero which channels a huge chunk of the dirty air when it's been mashed by the suspension, rear wing underside, exhaust and the small wings ontop the gearbox.
If the teams are allowed more wind tunnel time for cars that reduce the dirty air etc. Allowing them to put bodywork (or putting it the regs) that controls and channels a smoother tail end airflow
Ive heard making DRS ONLY WHEN you are MORE THAN A SECOND out. Makes sense if you think about it. V8s, smaller cars/im willing to part with hybrid although i do like the technology F1 has pioneered for the system. Smaller cars=less safety cell-change more on/off track safety. Smaller wheels-stick more with C3-C5 compounds to maintain track time if that is desired. (And just a personal one…sign Mick)
I’d love to see F1 without the front wing, something like the early 80’s Brabham/Williams, plenty of scope for ground effect areo keep the rear wing or allow teams to remove it if they want. Be interesting to see if anyone (Redbull) could make a competitive car without it
Considering how advanced F1 technology has gotten, and with way better added safety, there's no excuse as to why they don't bring back the 90s era car size.
"Brought to you by Saudi Arabian Oil-rich Blood-soaked Royals" but there is still a "Thank$" button?
End plates should be solid and the floor boards should have something like a 1 inch upward lip and just make it a template check of 90 degree within 2" of the edge, etc. 25-51mm
FIA is detailing restrictions too much, this is moving towards stock cars. Restrict dimentions, make cars smaller so they have more space, then let them race.
remove mguh, bring tyres with stripes to reduce grip, make the car smaller hence lighter and more draggy. Better Racing.
They need to get rid of the hybrid system. The reason cars are so big and heavy is because of that and full race fuel tanks.
Bring back the 60s cars. Beautiful little death traps.