Serhii Plokhy: History of Ukraine, Russia, Soviet Union, KGB, Nazis & War | Lex Fridman Podcast
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2024
- Serhii Plokhy is a Ukrainian historian at Harvard University, director of the Ukrainian Research Institute, and an author of many books on history of Eastern Europe, including his latest book The Russo-Ukrainian War: The Return of History. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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TRANSCRIPT:
lexfridman.com/serhii-plokhy-...
EPISODE LINKS:
Serhii's X: x.com/splokhy
Serhii's Website: history.fas.harvard.edu/peopl...
Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute: huri.harvard.edu/
Serhii's Books: amzn.to/3OS2EqK
2006 - The Origins of the Slavic Nations
2010 - Yalta: The Price of Peace
2012 - The Cossack Myth: History and Nationhood in the Age of Empires
2014 - The Last Empire: The Final Days of the Soviet Union
2015 - The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine
2016 - The Man with the Poison Gun: A Cold War Spy Story
2017 - Lost Kingdom: The Quest for Empire and the Making of the Russian Nation
2018 - Chernobyl: History of a Tragedy
2021 - Nuclear Folly: A History of the Cuban Missile Crisis
2021 - The Frontline: Essays on Ukraine's Past and Present
2022 - Atoms and Ashes: A Global History of Nuclear Disaster
2023 - The Russo-Ukrainian War: The Return of History
PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist: • Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:18 - Collapse of the Soviet Union
17:27 - Origins of Russia and Ukraine
30:30 - Ukrainian nationalism
38:13 - Stepan Bandera
1:07:13 - KGB
1:22:11 - War in Ukraine
1:58:27 - NATO and Russia
2:09:30 - Peace talks
2:23:17 - Ukrainian Army head Valerii Zaluzhnyi
2:29:54 - Power and War
2:40:45 - Holodomor
2:47:17 - Chernobyl
2:57:51 - Nuclear power
3:07:28 - Future of the world
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Transcript: lexfridman.com/serhii-plokhy-transcript
0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions:
- Eight Sleep: eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings
- Shopify: shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial
- NetSuite: netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour
- AG1: drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil
1:18 - Collapse of the Soviet Union
17:27 - Origins of Russia and Ukraine
30:30 - Ukrainian nationalism
38:13 - Stepan Bandera
1:07:13 - KGB
1:22:11 - War in Ukraine
1:58:27 - NATO and Russia
2:09:30 - Peace talks
2:23:17 - Ukrainian Army head Valerii Zaluzhnyi
2:29:54 - Power and War
2:40:45 - Holodomor
2:47:17 - Chernobyl
2:57:51 - Nuclear power
3:07:28 - Future of the world
Very thank full for this guest, I almost lost hope and thought you will invite guests that repeat russian propaganda narrative
Nice follow-up after TC. I know this is a topic you are passionate about based on past discussions and posts. Thank you for sharing this content.🤙🏼
ty Lex gg wp gl hf
Totally delusional in his predictions
When is the Destiny Finkelstein debate going to be available? Is it a secret??????
Whoever was doing the subtitles kept writing "Kazakhs" whenever he said "Cossacks". There's a big difference between the two groups.
Yeah, I've burst into laughing when seeing this.
Not for those guys. We are all barbarians for them.
Ukrainians transliteration of Cossack is Kozak.
"Kazakh" is a citizen of Kazakhstan, have nothing to do with Cossacks
@@Yablonskiis Correct. Kazakhs come from Kazakhstan. Kozaks from Ukraine. I’m afraid I might get the plural ending wrong, probably Kozaki.
Lex, I don't know how often you read your comments but listening to your podcasts with political thinkers and historians has done a lot for me. I started college at 16 and have delayed my graduation over and over again because I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do. I majored in Political Science. The amount of knowledge that I had gained from these podcasts had inspired me to open up a few books and it reignited my interest in my field, making me happy to finally decide to make a career out of this. Thank you
Wow! That is very inspiring!
Good speed Michael. It’s never delayed, you’re only on time brother. Good luck in your endeavors
Amazing. Thanks.
What a cool comment for Lex to get! 🌟
Good luck, Michael, with whatever you decide to do! Knowledge is the key to freedom!✨️
LEX IS HOT!!!! 🔥🔥🔥
Better later then never: 1st Ukrainian voice on this podcast for last 2 years
How many Russians voices have we heard?
@@cookml Tucker Carlson, John Meirsheimer, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Oliver Stone - among others. He gives a stage to many Americans who parrot Russian propaganda - knowingly or not. Hearing from Ukrainians at least allows people to hear the side of the country being invaded - and constantly disparaged by his guests.
@@cookmlTaker😂
@@cookml I mean every podcast have “russian” voice
@@cookml jokes aside, every other guest that talk on topic of geopolitics is russian simp or carrying pro russian views on russia war on Ukraine.
There were Guests without pro russian views - you can even say they hold anti russian but American views, not Ukrainian view. The difference is that you can say to anti russian American “it is fake, it is propaganda, you believe media too much” when you discuss russian war, but you cant say it that easily to Ukrainians, they know their facts about invasion directly from their relatives and friends also they understand russian language and that’s why understand more clearly what russians say and what their goal is.
Пан Сергій - фаховий та поважний вчений. На питання "в чому сенс вторгнення в 2022?" майстерно почав з "коли війна почалась в 2014..." Brilliantly
Так, хоча в багатьох аспектах, по типу: чому Ярослав Мудрий почав штампувати гривну, він не розповів)
He also skillfully ignored the Maidan Coup, the right wing violence and US state department support leading up to it. What a clown is this guy that he never mentions the role of Victoria Nuland, as if she hasn't been exposed meddling in Ukrainian affairs. Ukraine got what it deserved because of people like Serhii.
@@ufukpolat3480 the ears of the Kremlin stick out from under your hat. hello mr major of russion FSB 😄🤡
@@irina573of course I see how are you dumb. Just see how much people was at maidan, and how much was at full Ukraine. Too close argument my boy
@@irina573Yet he’s not wrong. There has been meddling way before 2014. If there is a counter argument, it would be nice to have a constructive discussion. Дякую.
There are mistakes in the subtitles. When Serhii Plokhy talks about Cossacks, in the subtitles we see "Kazakhs".
Maybe because it's autogenerated?
@@Andrey-il8rh There are two subtitle options: 1. English - Default 2. English (auto-generated). I'm talking about the first one. I haven't even looked at the second one.
I prefer "Qazaqs". "Kazakh" reflects Russian pronunciation and, as you know, this is a Turkic language, no more closely related to Russian than to English. If we have Türkiye, why not Qazaqstan?
@@Gargoiling We shouldn't have Türkiye in English at all. The letter "ü" is not even part of the English alphabet. Should we call Germany "Deutschland", Spain "España" or Albania "Shqipëria"? That's ridiculous.
The captions are done by AI.
What a great, deeply informative episode. It's a shame it has more than 10 times less views than the one with Tucker
It's bias. This guy is lying. Try to fact-check him.
@@TonnyDeff I’ll look into it - can you give some examples of points where he is lying? Also, what’s a good unbiased source?
@@Dr_Beastus One example - he said there are no NAZIs in Ukraine nowadays. Please search in Google or better in DuckDuckGo NAZI and Ukraine. You will find a lot of evidence: symbols, flags, pictures, and tattoos (even with Hiter himself). Please read about SS Galizien and the Wolynia Massacre in 1943. He said also Bandera is considered as NAZI because he collaborated with Hitler, but also others (Stalin for instance) also collaborated with Hitler. The truth is Bandera is considered as a NAZI because he shared the same ideas with Hitler: Jews, Russians, Poles and other nations are less human than Ukrainians and Germans. Ukraine should be pure like a glass of water - and so on.
@@Dr_Beastus check this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decalogue_of_a_Ukrainian_Nationalist
Lex, this is a great interview! Have you considered mediating a debate between Plokhy and Mearsheimer, whose theories go unchallenged?
Great idea
Mearsheimer would crash his claims.For instance,this guy somehow conclude that for Putin the collapse of SSSR was bigger tragedy than loss of man during the ww2. So, Mearsheimer would have probably tell him that you can't compare loss of life kind of tragedy with the term "GEOPOLITICAL catastrophe"!Putin said it very clear for the most of people,but this guy is not one of them.If you want to learn from guy who can't comprehend a simple sentence,go on.This kind of people are not seeking the truth,they already decided what it looks like and then they looking for pretext for it.
Mearshiemer is a coward, fraud and compulsive liar. He would never agree to an interview with someone who could expose his lies.
@@renatobelic what on earth are you talking about?
@@ldhorricks Putin has described the collapse of Soviet Union as a "largest GEOPOLITICAL catastrophe of the century".He did not describe it as a largest human tragedy,or human loss.If he would do that,then this so-called historian could claim that for Putin "the biggest tragedy is not the loss of life,the biggest tragedy is the loss of the great power..."Do you understand now,or should I draw it to you?
Please lex, have more historians. Thanks for the conversations
this "historian" is rewriting history...
@@wishIKnewHowToLoveprove it, he had some minor inaccuracies but for the most part was correct objectively
Historians...who is ordering them the narrative? I no longer know who to trust.
I do not even know is having a historian from the opposite side would help.
Maybe a historian of the C.I.A. (not their own), or some kind of an "Economic Assassin" guest would help see better how the relationships BTW close nations were historically muddled with.
This one is not a historian, is a propagandist.
“Historians”
You need to invite Timothy Snyder too.
I think he's done Lex's podcast before
He is completely out of touch
@@Abby-np5rr he's an expert on the subject.
Please no 😂
Would be good but Lex probably would afraid to. As Timothy is very open & sincere about nature of russians 😊
I absolutely loved the podcast. Serhii is a very intelligent and an interesting person to talk and listen to. I love how he keeps to be neutral and professional when talking about Ukraine and Russia even though he comes from Ukraine.
from 2:43:00-2:47:00 in this interview: I was taken with S.P.'s way of expressing a very wise observation. Thanks, Lex, for once again helping us to understand the issues of the day by interviewing some of the most thoughtful folk on these topics.
As a Ukrainian I'd like to note a thing about languages. Ukrainian is really close to Belarusian and I've heard conversations where two people would speak their native languages and it was easily comprehensive. As far as I know russians have troubles comprehending both Ukrainian and Belarusian languages due to very different vocabulary and very distinct phonetics.
Thanks for confirming my observation.
As another Ukrainian who understands Belarusian nearly perfectly in all forms (despite never learning it), can confirm it. Also, many Belarusians also understand me in Ukrainian without much trouble at all.
Yep, can confirm. I can comprehend Belarussian without too much trouble. My Belarussian friend can easily understand me too, however the tragedy is that he won't speak Belarussian to me... drumroll... because he doesn't know his own language good enough to speak it! I knew about the russification of Belarus, but when he told me in details the extent to which it happened in the 90s and 2000s, I was completely blown away.
Its simmilar to russian i can speak russian i learnd in my teens but never learnd ukranian, i understand ukranian easy
Russians understand Ukrainian perfectly. And it depends on what form of Ukrainian you mentioned, I am Ukrainian and understand Western Ukrainian with big difficulties, but Polish would not have problems,
Linguistically, all 3 language: Russian, Ukrainian and Belorussian s belong to 1 group; it would be strange if countries had borders that were not connected
11:52 Serhii mentions that "level of russification is much higher" in the post soviet state of Russia. The closed captions says 'unification' rather than 'russification.' This mistranslation/ failure at writing the correct words used is something that should be corrected, as the meaning conveyed by those two terms is strikingly different for everyone who is not perhaps Russian.....
You could not have been pleased when it automatically transcribed you as Wank a witch
@@zetristan4525 funny
@@yuriywankiewicz6689And wouldn't Plokhy be translated as Bads? 😜If not, my bad...
And the Ukrainization of Russians, Hungarians, Poles, Romanians, and others is just dandy! Hypocrisy!
@@daniel8728 What was done in Ukrainianization? All I know is Ukraine trying to make Ukranian the only official language, anything else? Cause if not then there's no comparison here.
Started watching this, 30 mins in I paused, read several works by, or about Pushkin, Tolstoy, Trotsky, Dostoevsky, and others. Now I am coming back to finish watching the rest of the video, with some context. Thanks Mr Friedman...
One minor correction (at 18:44): "Once we had Czechoslovaks, now we have Czechs and Slovaks." Sorry for going nitpicky, but compared to the others mentioned, it's a bit misleading.
Slovaks, Moravians and Czechs (going east-to-west) can technically be taken as three stages of settling in one direction of the slavic diaspora. But Czechoslovakia and the idea of a joint nation is an invention of the early 20th Century, made out of sheer convenience to make a better case for RE-establishing a country after the breakup of Austro-Hungaria.
Sadly enough, the wider English culture remains oblivious to anything that went on between the German and Russian lands prior to Napoleon winning at Austerlitz.
Like... Czechs having a fairly singificant presence in Europe for centuries as a nation and kingdom (until the 1620 Battle of White Mountain), even having one of their major monarchs as the Holy Roman Emperor (Charles IV, recently elevated from virtually-unknown to somewhat-known worldwide thanks to the game Kingdom Come: Deliverance).
Czechs and Slovaks exist as separate nations/ethnics/... since pre-1000AD and in the case of Czechs, the oldest written local sources go down to the 13th Century. Differences between Czechs and Moravians are barely worth mentioning, as both groups always maintained close ties. But Slovaks were largely separated from much of their western kin most of the time, mostly due to geographic and political reasons. The Czechoslovak get-together-again after WW1 was an idealistic political stunt that looked great on paper back then, but was doomed to fail in the long run in any case. This would be worth a whole socio-economic lecture.
Also, the thing about "Bohemia" and "Bohemians" is a sad historical misnomer worthy of an entire lecture too.
See my comment for a correction of a rediculously inaccurate board statement he makes. I'll suggest he is not an expert on East Asian history and should probably say less until he learns more.
there was a common empire "great moravia" in 9-10th century, the split happened when Magyar came then it became Bohemia and Hungary
But Great Moravia wasn't a "national state", it was simply an early medieval state-like formation of some slavic tribes. And the tribe that later gave name to the Czech nation, the ancient Czechs, was just one peripheral tribe dependent on the prince of Moravia. @
I don't know whether 1,000 years ago Czechs were ethnically different from Poles or Slovaks; whether countries didn't distinguish themselves earlier than nations. But you are right -- talking about the ancient past using the word "Czechoslovakian" is a biting mistake here.
This is true , but I understood Plokhy as explaining how matters looked or was described in the west , especially america…
Would love to see you interview Zelensky (and ask all the hard questions I personally want to hear answered as a Ukrainian) !
No one want to listen to Selensky anymore. What would he say what he didn't say until now? He is constantly lying. What value do his words have? For change he should try to work for peace.
@@dvegule920 You surely mean Putin, right?
@@dvegule920 you made a couple mistakes in the word Putin mate
Arestovych is far more available than Zelensky. Sadly I can imagine Melnyk being far more eager... it would be a lot of crap throwing on Europe...
@@dvegule920 There are different levels in hell. And if you speak about the compartment for liars, Zelensky is out of the league compared to Russian officials, all the Islamists and most Arab leaders, Chinese, North Koreans. And then have Trump MAGA camp and the previous guests of Lex: Oliver Stone and Tucker Carlson. So no... get a bit less deluded Sir...
Very nice overview of the historical landscape around Ukraine. Like the way Serhii tells history, it's not boring at all. Read one of his books, worth reading
Thank you both for a truly worthwhile 3+ hours, previously I had a rather sketchy knowledge (very sketch)y!) of Ukrainian history, I now feel I might be in a position to learn a lot more - re-read Bloodlands, listen to your program once again, buy a book or two of the professor’s books.
This episode is a special one truly considering what is going on in the world right now. Also, I'm Lithuanian so I'm especially grateful for this one, Lex. Thank you Lex and Mr. Serhii Plokhy!
his name is Sergey, not Serhii
@@valuerc2664why you think so?
@@valuerc2664 It's Serhii or Serhiy. He's Ukrainian. That's how it's pronounced.
@@valuerc2664 No, it's Serhii. Just like Zelensky's name isn't Vladimir but Volodymyr. Slavic names are written and pronounced differently in different Slavic languages.
@@Marmur21 btw, the original name is Volodymer (the Great), the one that brought the Christianity to Rus.
Lex always gets the best guests. I respect his interview style and his intellect, he’s not an ideologue.
I think he secretly supports Russia
@@ds6914 Lex is from Russia.
@@ds6914 I thought so too until he called Zelensky a hero.
@@ds6914 I think he is extremely anti Russian and pro Western to the point of it being funny.
@lukebruce5234 Once you've lived in each, the choice is easy. Remember, Lexs people are Ukrainian, too.
By far, the best interviews (IMHO) are the ones with historians. Mindbenders all!
I also liked Timothy Snider’s work of Ukrainian history. Such a great work. With it’s dark and bright sides revealed. Thank you Lex for interesting interview ❤
Did Snider explain why Azov uses Nazis symbols of Wolfsangel and Black Sun?
@@ruslankbr5243I think for the same reason that russian “Rusich” battalion call them self a nazi battalion.
@@ruslankbr5243 don't pay attention to that. it's just most pure Russian propaganda
Better take a look at one of the founders of the Wagner PMC (Dmitry Utkin). He had tatoos with Nazi symbols on his chest.. That's insane.
@@Kirill-bi4gh really but I did deep research and this is pure truth. I can explain you their roots and symbols)
Great interview Lex, very good to see more intelligent people on your podcast! Mr. Plokhy shed so much light on Russia-Ukraine conflict very interesting conversation and I loved the quote in the end!
How is Ukraine a Democracy ? When the "election" outcome was exactly what Victoria Nuland described in that "phone call"
Democracy means Western aligned in modern day not necessarily a free and fair election with universal voting.
When professor says “we should do what our predecessors did in the Cold War” what does he mean? He was in the Soviet Union at a time, studying in a University in Moscow. Who is “we” in this case and who are his “predecessors”?
Imagine American historians (many, if not all) aren't guided by ideology too lol.
we prob current generation, predecessors the generation during Cold War, both sided.
Wow, Lex. It took me three days to get through the whole thing. Boy was it worth it. This was a really good interview! Thanks.
the guest is 100% biased though... talkinh about russia disintegrating, in his dreams!
Well, the guest was talking about the trend across the arc of history. What has been happening to all empires for the past several hundred years. The reasoning is that, as population grows, governments tend to have an increasing problem with maintaining a single national identity. Then things tend to break apart. The same thing may be happening in the United States right now. Without a cohesive vision and identity you are not one people. And, honestly I can't imagine a leader that could unite this mess we're in.
@@MrJayrodgeinteresting point of view. I agree with it. However, the guest's bias felt strong. I can forgive him-he is a Ukrainian.
@@iamthereforeistrive9392 been a Ukrainian is not an excuse for the gross total lies. Not a single answer was objective. Yak
@@elenacrudge5815What did he say that is totally biased?
maybe it's time to interview Timothy Snyder?
Genius guest Lex. Love the way you draw the info out.
Encouraging to hear a scholarly discussion, that is focused on expanding our understanding of this situation. The visible thoughtfulness of Serhii Plokhy's personality and presentation that makes his words trustworthy. With the stakes & the pain-level so high in Ukraine, to feel educated rather than propagandized after listening to a discussion, is an achievement. Thank you.
The Bolsheviks "arrested the development of the religion and thinking and theology." to fix it in pre 1917 imperialism. I have struggled to a way to come to grips with at force in Russian politics. Again, thank you.
The podcast is so much more useful than a lecture because I can replay the parts I really need to hear, to let them slink in. Again, thank you.
"NATO wa a big part of the Russian justification for the war, The truth is..."
"The immediate goal was to stop the drift of the Ukraine to he West..." YES,
except it was more than a "drift" it was a march toward a better future.
Putin's Russia represents nothing but rot.
Serhii Plokhy is too smart for Lex Fridman.
My great grandmother was from Nova Lesna, Slovakia so I am eager to hear this episode and learn more about that time. Many thanks
Doporučuju Snyderovi lekce na yt.
After listening this western version of the history you need to listen the eastern version, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.
@@PRINCIPijalan you mean the KGB version?
@@standad7541 Timothy Snyder? I will look into it! Thanks!
@@PRINCIPijalan Any suggestions on ones you find more accurate?
Thank you for this incredible interview. Thank you Lex for doing this.
This is in agreement with Pro. Snyder’s classes on Ukraine. Nice to see academics in agreement
or simply copying each other?
@@ottrovgeisha2150 On obvious things they will be in agreement.
"Nice to see a bias being confirmed without any more context or replies from dissenting people"
There I fixed your comment.
When academics are in agreement they are not academics.
@@cookml There is something called scientific consensus. Usually if there is scientific consensus about something that means that it is for all intense and purposes the truth.
So unless you find a serious academic, not a Russian propagandists, who disagrees with Snyder you can just assume it is true.
B cause if there is any real reason to disagree with Snyder some academic will do so. Otherwise no.
On a visit to Soviet Kiev in 1981, with a friend with relatives there, it was still apparent that Ukrainians were being spied upon. In fact our Intourist guides were particularly interested in my friend, whose name ended in "-enko", an Ukrainian surname, and were very inquisitive about our movements on the days when we did not take part on official visits or outings with the tour group. They were also rather inquisitive during our stays in Leningrad and Moscow, asking me, with a few months of evening school Russian lessons, a lot of questions about my friend, who spoke rather more Russian than I did.
Konstantin Ustinovich Chernenko is a Soviet party and statesman. General Secretary of the CPSU Central Committee, perhaps he was just looking for his relatives?
Maybe you felt like that because you are a westerner in Soviet Russia and you have a friend there in a time where neither sides governments trusted eachother. . . Real spies don't have "spy jobs." They integrate with the community they are placed in and earn people's trust so they can get Intel from them. For context I wasn't even born then and I'm purely speculating that this could have partly something to do with it. I did serve in the US military though and I worked in intel.
The "Cossacks" are wrongly transcribed in the subtitles as "Kazakhs". These are two very different things. Please correct it.
I am a Canadian with mixed Russian-Ukrainian ethnic background. Therefore the blunder in Canadian Parliament concerns me directly.
It is so good to see that Dr. Plokhy is given a floor to lay out his views. I congratulate Lex on making it happen, Lex’s interview style is excellent for seeking the truth. In order to have a 3D view of a complex subject, one must be able to view it from several perspectives. In the last 10 to 15 years there has been a lot of academic research in Canada, USA, Sweden, Germany, Poland that was able to use the previously inaccessible archives on the difficult subject of nationalism in interwar, WW2 and post-WW2 period. There is also research on the role of Ukrainian extreme nationalists and far-right nationalists in the last few decades. I would encourage those who want to better understand the subject to become familiar with the works of those researcher, some which are given below.
It is a pity that the OUN(b)’s own involvement in atrocities against Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Russians is not given sufficient attention. Focusing exclusively on collaboration with German Nazis does not address heads-on the fascist ideology of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalist Bandera’s faction known as OUN(b) by it Ukrainian acronym. The fact that OUN(b) fought, as they claim, for Ukrainian independence does not absolve them from either collaboration with German Nazis nor their own atrocities. Similarly, the fact that Stalin collaborated with the Nazi Germany does not absolve OUN(b) actions and those persons involved in them.
John-Paul Himka Professor Emeritus, University of Alberta, Canada.
He is a Canadian, an ethnic Ukrainian who believes it is critical to face the difficult history heads-on, rather than ignoring, cherry-picking or worse yet, whitewashing it. This is what allows one to separate wheat from the chaff and tell the good from the evil. He considers that heroization of OUN(b) and whitewashing their atrocities is a bland spot in the collective memory of the Ukrainian diaspora. This is in fact the root cause of the blunder of the Canadian Parliament giving a standing ovation to Yaroslav Hunka, a SS Galizien Nazi member, rather than some inexplicable mix-up which the Government officials cite.
www.academia.edu/104655067/War_Criminality_A_Blank_Spot_in_the_Collective_Memory_of_the_Ukrainian_Diaspora
Chrystia Freedland, Deputy Prime Minister was present in the Parliament and she clapped to Hunka enthusiastically. She is fluent in Ukrainian and Russian and spent a significant amount of time in Ukraine and Russia. She cannot plausibly claim ignorance of the subject of the involvement of Ukrainian nationalists and their atrocities during WW2 in inter- and post-war periods against Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Russians. Her grandfather Michael Chomiak was the editor of Krakowski Visti, a Ukrainian Nationalistic newspaper in WW2 period that collaborated with Nazis and published antisemitic material and promoted Galizien SS Division. Chrystia Freeland must be well aware of John-Paul Himka research, who is, in fact, her uncle and son-in-law of Michael Chomiak. Freeland is actually acknowledged by Himka for helping to get some details rights in one of John-Paul Himka’s earlier papers. Skillful propaganda will certainly use some true facts, and the mere use of them by propaganda does not render them false. To effectively respond to propaganda it is essential to be able to handle the difficult truth heads-on, rather than brushing it away by saying “it is propaganda”. Silencing or ignoring those who point to the difficult truth does a disservice to the truth. So far, Canadian Government was unable to handle the truth on the difficult subject of the past Nazi war criminal.
Anders Per Rudling, associate professor at the Lund University in Sweden.
His research included Ukrainian Nationalism interwar, WW2 and post-WW2 period. Also - the Ukrainian Nationalism in Canada and whitewashing OUN (b) history in post-WW2 period. He authored many academic papers, as well as articles in the press on the subject. Below is one of the most recent ones. Attempts were made on to silence him and his research.
Rudling, P. A. (2022). The Far-Right Ukrainian Diaspora's Policing of History. In N. Mörner (Ed.), The Many Faces of the Far Right in the Post-Communist Space: A Comparative Study on Far-Right Movements and Identity in the Region (pp. 42-60).
sh.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1640388/FULLTEXT01.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1SzqDH53e9ffiPJIhYQ__jKYzlNRtV3xzFuomlz9nrw3eqz8SuWKh_SPU#page=42
Rudling, P. A., & McBride, J. (2024). By opening up the archives, Canada can finally address its past with Nazi war criminals. The Globe and Mail.
www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-by-opening-up-the-archives-canada-can-finally-address-its-past-with/#comments
Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe, Research Associate and Lecturer Friedrich-Meinecke-Institut in Germany.
His PhD thesis was on Stepan Bandera. Here is an article he wrote on the subject:
www.academia.edu/9780848/Stepan_Bandera_The_Life_and_Afterlife_of_a_Ukrainian_Nationalist_Fascism_Genocide_and_Cult_Stuttgart_Ibidem_Press_2014_
Ivan Katchanovsky, professor at the University of Ottawa
www.academia.edu/41023574/The_Far_Right_the_Euromaidan_and_the_Maidan_Massacre_in_Ukraine
excelent coment
Zelensky must be acutely aware of the history and he was also enthusiastically applauding.
I stopped watching after he tried to whitewash Bandera saying "oh, Stalin also was cooperating with nazis", somehow forgetting that there was no nazi ideology in Soviet Union, and all cooperation was in fact trying to direct Hitler away from USSR while Soviets where preparing for inevitable war, and Bandera was just a terrorist who hated Jews, Poles, Russians and was killing anybody with different political views on future Ukraine.
Thank you for your comment.
Now is it possible that some of those Ukrainians that joined the German SS army during WWII for the sake of fighting against Russia, or an attempt to escape an imminent death, as opposed to supporting the Nazi cause?
Note that I will always stand with Ukraine 🇺🇦 and Israel 🇮🇱.
Wonderful! Listened for whole 3 hours
At 3:12:46, I understand the reasoning, but the “focus on what did we do right in the Cold War” argument does not apply to today’s situation. Russia’s actions more closely resemble September in 1939 than anything during the Cold War. As a historian, he should understand how passivity and appeasement to genocidal dictators is ultimately viewed in history.
Yes there were logistical problems & more resistance from ukrainians than expected but military analysts are clear there were not enough russian troops to take Kiev & would have been long drawn out & bloody for both sides especially civilians ..no way Putin was planning to force his way into such a large city opposed..only if govt surrendered which was his plan
you are acting like russia isn't winning the war
@@azerty8866 of course, it is not winning. They have 2 trillion budget deficit and their National Security Fund is almost empty.
@@azerty8866 is it? Define winning for russia then.
There is no "kiev", it's Kyiv
You're absolutely right about Kiev
Thanks, Lex, for the awesome podcast episode, especially in these uncertain times. The guest was really inspiring, and I learned a lot about the nearby Slavic regions from the impressive historical insights shared.
This historian is very biased
I really appreciated this. Thank you - I have subscribed and look forward to listening to other podcasts.
Lex, it was another great podcast. When will you be interviewing Serhii Horoshiy?
Finland is not same as Ukraine from Putins point of view
Well, not now when it's in the NATO, thankfully.
Yet the Russians tried repeatedly to take it over, and did succeed in seizing some of its territory.
It never was, since `45. Finns were fooled into NATO and out of neutrality. And actually, only NOW they are in potential danger.@@cioccolateriaveneziana
??? Finland has never been any Russian land as there are no Russians. Okraine (not Ukraine) is Novorossiya being taken from the Ottomans from 21 wars until Vlachia (Rumenia) 1707. Ukraine is mostly Galicia and west from Kiev and had NEVER being on Black Sea . Ukrainians and Okrainian- Russian settlers are two different ethnic groups, like Serbs and Croats (White Croats being actually Ukrainians too)
Don't be what u say... lalala
Lex, I admire your dedication to get to the bottom of issues however complicated and tangled these issues may be. Great podcast. Thank you for your work!
Plokhy is a Ukrainian propagandist with history education. Inviting him is the opposite of getting to the bottom of the issues
@@iMetmorI am Bulgarian, Slavic and i was always neutral.
Today's Ukrainians were there first, here is where putin's propaganda starts falling apart
@@Lessgo00 «Ukrainian» and «Russian» are not some tribes that lived in different lands.
Russians are the people of the old Rus' state, much like Han Chinese are the people of the state ruled by the Han dynasty, or Americans are the people of the USA.
Projecting «Ukraine» into ancient times is an anachronism.
Ukrainians couldn't have been first anywhere, as «Russian» is an identity that is about a millenium older than «Ukrainian».
@@iMetmor Today's Ukrainians are direct successors to Kievan Rus'.
Russians for some part are the same people that went out of the Kievan Rus' state and founded Russia.
It's like i have a brother and we found together a country. Later he goes out and founds another country all by himself and after years he starts claiming the rights on our first country claiming that it was always his.
@@iMetmorRussland came from Kyiv, so I guess Ukrainians should rightfully rule Moscow:)
Thank you Lex and Serhil Plokhy for the historical review.
Nice to know Harvard can still offer some quality.
You call that quality? no it is not, it is not even history, it is just narratives
@salimmazariboufares3118 Harvard pushing its BS geopolitical agenda a 💯 PROPAGANDA SHILL and LEX just ran with it, defending the SS NAZI in Canadian government
@@salimmazariboufares3118it's a history. Probably you love Russian fairy tailes, but here we see a real history
@@ddd7386 Probably you love Ukranian fairy tailes))) How can this be objective? This professor is Ukrainian, he cannot speak impartially. Then it was possible to invite a historian from Russia to this meeting to make it more honest
@@colgates. You should criticize arguments, not people. Your concerns about the nationality of the professor indicate that you don't have any logical counterarguments.
Dr Fridman, thank you for doing what you do, I so enjoy your analysis and general conversation with people of all backgrounds
This is a balanced approach on discussing the current war. Well done, Lex! Listening to your podcasts is an antidote to my biases.
Pseudobalanced. Nazi apologist and truth bender. Wrong on so many accounts, but presented smooth
In general I agree. However IMO it's an issue that the podcasts with populists that make up their own facts are watched a lot more than those with scientists that mostly speak facts. The tucker podcast has >10 times more views than this one.
It is not balanced at all. He whitewashed everything, skillfully avoiding all problematic topics
@@arslanseitaly8364 elaborate.
@@arslanseitaly8364you definitely know everything better, than a professional historian. Especially you know about Ukrainian history, sitting in Kirghizia.
Finaly Lex got a normal guest (not pro russian)
One question - where is the USA during these turbulent times???
🤫
Pulling strings
Would be lovely for Lex to facilitate discussion between Mearsheimer (or someone else) and this professor.
I feel like both have some holes in their line of argumentation and it would enrich us the listeners even more 😉
I asked Sergii about Mearsheimer he gave a good answer
Mearsheimer has holes in his heart and his head. Absolutely closed-minded person who will never deviate from his ideology.
I met with Sergii few months ago, his point is that Mearsheimer thinks within a specific framework, a very logical - western realpolitik and doesn’t see the Russian angle to it.
Mearsheimer isn’t a historian. He’s a political “scientist “ who engages in bullshit and lies.
I stopped listening to mearshimer as soon as he said that he dosnt belive theres any actors more powerful then the state 🤷♂️ that takes alot of history out of his view 🤣
It’s so important to hear more Ukrainian voices on platforms like Lex’s to connect more to the ongoing war and the people in it.
I can say a lot about war in Ukraine as I live in Kyiv and lived in Russia, Im also half Russian half Rkrainian but Lex will never invite me because he in cherrypicking his guests and leaning to pro-russian anti-west MAGA-like propaganda
are you joking? There is no other point to hear then the ukrainian and western. It would be an achievement if in mainstream media they start to let the other side talk and be heard.
@@Smokereca What?
they are n&zi's lol.
@@gugugaga1233 you mean russian neo nazis like Alexei Milchakov?
One of the most important guests finally on the channel. Please read his books. Can’t wait for Timothy Snyder.
Aleksandar, congratulations for questions asked, as well as a very calm manner of interviewing respected Ukrainian Professor. Both of you have a nice Slavic accent and I am happy that you are not hiding it. It would be interesting if your interviewee would be in a debate in which slightly different opinions would be on the table. However, the Ukrainian Professor delivered his version of the truth. Another dimension which I want to stress is that this horrible conflict had to be avoided, because Slavic people are killing Slavic people. Let us talk about the outcome of this conflict in a couple of years, hoping that in the meantime the entire Europe will not be already totally destroyed, or burning. Actually, I like the patriotic segments of the speech of your interviewee.
What this war shows is that values and sense of identity are more important to people than ethnicity and that's where putin miscalculated in launching his full scale attack in 2022 trusting his intelligence that russia's efforts to buy off the play-makers in Ukraine will be enough to prevent serious military opposition.
thank you for a great episode and an amazing guest!
Thank you, Lex. That was very interesting.
Excellent interview question; Serhii Plokhy, thank you on providing more clarity to reality of present situation. Many important questions that was not asked: why Ukraine does not condemn Wolyn massacre, why cult of Bandera, and cult of Ukrainian SS division, why so many 😊Ukrainians joined in murdering Jews during Holocaust?
VERY INFORMATIVE-THANK YOU
I wish to see discussion on this topic between profesor Measheimer, Dougles Mac Greggor, profesor Sachs vs Serhii Plokhy
They all are experts in different fields so it would be extremely difficult. Mearsheimer is a rockstar in IR, Macgregor has a PhD in IR but he was really known for being a innovative military thinker, Sachs is an economist/public policy wonk, and Plokhy is a historian. Plokhy has no knowledge in their fields and vice versa.
@@trogdortpennypacker6160 disagree , on the topic of origin Russian - Ukrainian conflict all of them have great knowledge of recent history of those countries , theoretical and practical(direct communication with political elites of this era )
Yes... Primary sources are king in the study of history (and those guys qualify as primary sources on quite a few topics), and if one is to dismiss what they say one must have good reason.
@@markp6621primary sources are contemporary sources that were there at the time that the events happened ie the best sources of history. None of these names clearly are primary sources!
@@redrev674 That shows you how little you know. Sachs knew most of the eastern European leaders including those of Ukraine and Russia because he was advising them economically. He also knew those in Washington in that context. Scott Ritter was a weapons inspector in the Soviet Union representing US interests and knew military and civilian leaders in both the east and west at the highest levels. I'm less aware of MacGregor's experience, but it was probably NATO related and he does seem to have some knowledge and contacts in Ukraine and Poland from around the end of the cold war.
Lex had to get someone from the other side to calm down the hate for Tucker
Exactly, to be fair he always tries to get both sides, so I’m not surprised after Tucker he had to seem unbiased etc
Hmmmm...I'm half way through this sit-down and I am not getting any sort of pro ukraine side. Just simple academic history. And that's nice. Tucker is a man on the ground interview. This is a historian. More well informed content by coming from multiple angles. Much respect.
Очень интересный гость. И первый час беседы особенно классный. Но затем когда гость стал затрагивать более политизированную сторону истории, его ангажированность стало видно особенно сильно. Однако на эти темы говорить сложно без политических предрассудков, к сожалению.
Некоторые люди умудряются спорить с политикой Римской республики. Хотя там непредвзятого намного меньше.
Но классно, когда проблемы рассматриваются с разных точек зрения, и высказываются разные люди.
There's a book titled 'Stepan Bandera: The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist: Fascism, Genocide, and Cult' by Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe. Stepan Bandera in Rossolinski-Liebe's book isn't quite the innocent, detached, non-participant that Mr. Plokhy paints in your interview, Lex. Why did the Soviet Union send an assassin to kill Bandera in 1959, 14 years after World War ll was over? The Russians claim that the people buried at Babyn Yar are simply Soviet citizens murdered by the Germans, NOT Jews. According to Rossolinski-Liebe's book there were NO Jews left in Ukraine at the end of World War ll - and that Stepan Bandera's OUN-B played a big part in that unfortunate fact. Professor Plokhy's view certainly isn't the only one regarding Stepan Bandera and the OUN-B.
In 2017 I stayed in a Jewish accommodation facility halfway between Kiev and Odessa. It was a Friday night and they were gearing up for their Sabbath. Oddly they served Jack Daniels with dinner
Thanks for this interview, now I want to read this man's books,.❤
It will be usefull to read his book. Unfortunately I can stated that guest "hide" some facts that opposite his opinion, and also he has mistakes in the statements. So try to find others opinion too.
@@nonamenolastname3991
I also noticed that. But then, he was answering exactly what he was asked. There are other interviews with him where he is answering more confronting questions.
@@fz1576 which interviews?
If you want to be even more misled then read his books🤣 Actually it is sad to see how misinformed and disinformed people are. Please look for other sources as well.
@@elenacrudge5815 my sources are tucker carlson and russian state media because i'm an INDEPENDENT THINKER!
Question unrelated to the video: why do reactions often not get through, despite them not violating community guidelines? I have written a lot of reactions below the video and they just don't show up. It's highly frustrating.
They do. Just keep scrolling😂
Thank you very much for the video from Odesa, Ukraine
🩵💛
Thank you for finally interviewing someone who is not obviously pro-Russian when it comes to this war.
There is a difference between pro-Russian and anti-American perspective. Most of the ppl you probably calling pro-Russians are not supporting Russia but are criticizing the US because in their opinion, the US is at the root of this war. Starting with the 2008 NATO summit in Romania. But ofc, ignorant ppl are using " if you are not with us you are against us " or " your opinion doesnt matter if it is not our opinion ".
Watch his body language. Says it all!
@truthseeker518 Watch this guys insane rambings. His disinformation says it all! Go back to Kremlin.
While your comment says nothing... ;-)
Best comment here! Thx
@@cioccolateriaveneziana just fasforward a few times, you'll see his arms crossed almost at all times. If he's not lying trough his teeth, he at least feels it's a dangerous topic and has to defend his point of view. It's a sign of uncertainty and weakness,
Loving the history podcasts. Thanks Lex.
More of a political opinion piece
Get over it, people have political opinions. I don't agree with all the political opinions expressed in this video, implicitly and explicitly. But you can still appreciate the history and differentiate what the facts are.
Or you can't, and that's a shame. For you, not for me.@@brandonlance3601
@@brandonlance3601And pro-Ukrainian is not??? Lololol.
This is good one
Thank you for this video. I watched it all the way through and it was. Very informative
Terrific exposure for Ukrainian studies and Ukrainian history.
Rather, a terrific exposure to a very biased ethnic Ukrainian professor.
Lex, when the full scale invasion of Ukraine started I was finishing my philosophy undergrad at Columbia University. Being a Marine Corps veteran I decided to volunteer and headed to Ukraine (first time there with no ties to the country) during my time there I got to emerge myself into the culture, the people, the history, the sorrows, pains, loses, and victories. I went in part (to the extent that we can understand a segment of why we do what we do) for the love of what the Ukrainian people were doing (and not out of hate for Russia).
Just wanted to thank you for being the voice of reason and knowledge. I listened to your interview with Tucker Carlson (and many other referring to this war) and your ability to listen to and acknowledge multiple perspectives is extremely refreshing.
Keep doing such an amazing job. May you continue to spark brilliant discussions around the world.
P.S. would love you to interview the president of El Salvador, Nayib Armado. It would be a fascinating podcast
Sy Hersh, Apr. 5, 2023; The Nord Stream Ghost Ship, The false details in the CIA´s cover story:
America’s Central Intelligence Agency is constantly running covert operations around the world, and all must have a cover story in case things go badly, as they often do. It is just as important to have an explanation when things go well, as they did in the Baltic Sea last fall. Within weeks of my report that Joe Biden ordered the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines, the agency produced a cover story and found willing takers in the New YorkTimes and two major German publications.
Sy Hersh, Jun 15, 2023 Partners In Doomsday, As Ukraine begins a counter-offensive and Biden´s hawks look on, new rhetoric out of Russia points a revival of the nuclear threat
Putin should rightly be condemned for his decision to tumble Europe into its most violent and destructive war since the Balkan wars of the 1990s. But those at the top in the White House must answer for their willingness to let an obviously tense situation lead into war when, perhaps, an unambiguous guarantee that Ukraine would not be permitted to join NATO could have kept the peace.
Sorry, did you fought for that? Did you hear something about Gonzalo Lira who died in Ukrainian prison without medical help? A USA citizen? Who ask you to "help"? In a foreign country???
There is nothing proud in being a mercenary lmao.
«Fullscale invasion» lmfao cmon
Idiot.
On every level.
@@TheMrNomadus Ukraine pays foreigners same money they pay their own soldiers. A very small wage by western standards.
The only people who go there are volunteers, they often sell property to fund themselves. Just like the Westerners who went to Spanish Civil War. Hemingway and Orwell.
I love videos like this. It gets into the details of history without the crazy hysteria that people seem to want to engage in. I actually wish this was longer.
Yeah! Six hours of talk would be great, with both Lex and his interviewee falling asleep 😂
@@Namuchat haha. Yah, I forgot they aren't robots
He even started stuttering when asked a question whether Bandera was an antisemitic. Of course he was and his comrades were. Also the officers of SS Galychyna were killing not just soldiers but civilians as well. Ukrainians who collaborated with Nazis were sometime even more vicious than Germans. I am from western Ukraine and I ve talked to many old people from both camps. Ukraine doesn’t have a neo nazi problem it has a problem of identification. One part of ucrania speaks Ukrainian and the other one speaks Russian and by declining them to have Russian as a second official language, shit hit the fan
Listened to this episode on Apple Podcasts and liked it enough to come here and leave a like!
I hope you have Henry Rollins as a guest. A conversation between you two would be fascinating given Henry's travels and humanitarian views.
High quality, So interesting, thank you
First time listener. Is that how Lex Fridman talks? He sounds like he hasn't slept well in days. BTW - great interview.
GREAT interview, Lex, I sincerely appreciate your attention and being able to LISTEN, not just ask (very smart) questions.
sure sure great interview not at all not full of bs and leading questions. What a disappointment you are Lex
@@dimapro keep chugging your state propaganda Dmitry. Or maybe you have some factual arguments that can disprove some parts of this interview?
This is the real Ukrainian conversation
This is a real Western Ukrainian conversation! This gentleman is constantly trying to whitewash Ukrainian history!
Ty Lex. This is such an incredibly important part our collective history
I could listen all day all week to this man
An excellently displayed comprehensive knowledge of past, present and future of the struggles of that part of the world, which is affecting all of us.
most of the speakers stories are either made up or doctored
Pure Ukrainian whitewash propaganda. The only difference is that he presents it in a more civilized fashion than many.
I hosted 30-40 player diplomacy games for people back in 2014 where each player got to play as a country and roleplay modern geopolitics. I didn't understand at the time (was a kid), but someone told me it was very important to include Ukraine as a separate country from Russia.
I split them up and gave Ukraine control of Romania and some Baltic states (every part of the world had to be owned by some player at game start, there were only 40 players maximum and previous game hosts had Ukraine and Russia together).
I didn't realize at the time the geopolitical implications for what I did. All I knew was that I made someone happy and it meant a lot to me.
It meant a very potent strategic advantage to the player who owned Ukraine! Since the time of the Thracian empire and before to the modern day, Ukraine is an extremely geographically important area of the world for transportation and commerce for the regions east of Europe with the entire West. Which means it is even more important when borders start moving.
Very interesting! Thank you!
Great interview.
Great interview, thanks for inviting Serhii Plokhy
Thank you for the interview.
Amazing historical talk, for learning from experts, and how your own personal perspective from family history played into the conversation. I'm new to your podcasts, but avidly watching them now. Thank you.
Despite my criticisms, the host seems to be working on understanding reality and I personally appreciate his efforts.
Great conversation Lex. Thank you.
He is very wrong about the nature or Solzhenitsyn's argument. In Gulag archipelago, he even admired the Ukrainian prisoners (who were there for collaboration with Germans) for their bravery to rebel against the camp conditions. He said that Ukrainians basically eradicated the ratting out practice, by silently killing the people ratting out to the authorities. After a while, nobody was willing to tell on others.
Solzhenitsyn is much more deep than what Serhii gives him credit to.
Solzhenitsyn was a rushin chauvinist who limited ‘Ukraine’ to Galicia . Basically what the contemporary fascists in moscow have conceded .
Thank you!
A truly brilliant interview, thank you!
At the 1:41 mark Serhii talks about Ukraine being a truly bilingual country. Could this also apply also in Slovakia? Not to quibble on a minor point, but I think many Slovaks can speak and understand Czech. But maybe they're closer linguistically than Russian and Ukrainian. I don't know. Perhaps someone can speak to this. Thank you for the interview. Very knowledgeable guest and Lex you always do great work as an interviewer.
I can tell you that linguistically, Ukrainian closer to Slovaks and Czechs languages, than to Russian.
Many Ukrainians speak fluent Russian because they either had everyone around them speak Russian, or they had TV where most of the films and TV shows were in Russian, or both.
But from my experience talking with Russians, they struggle to understand Ukrainian.
If we look at vocabulary, Belarusian shares 84% of vocabulary, Polish 70%, Slovak 68%, Russian 62%.
My guess is Czech and Slovakian are closer to each other than Russian and Ukrainian. If a Czech, visiting Bratislava, can understand Slovakian without previous exposure to the language then it is not the same thing as in Ukraine. Russians from Russia cannot understand Ukrainian. But Russian-speaking people from Ukraine do understand Ukrainian for most part. That's why it is not uncommon in Ukraine to have bilingual conversations expecting that the one person would easily understand what the other person says. And if, for example, a Russian-speaking person does not understand the Ukrainian-speaking person at all then it becomes clear that the first person is not from Ukraine. Because even if a Russian speaker has never spoken any Ukrianian, just by living in Ukraine he would have a decent passive knowledge of Ukrainian from the school, media, songs on the radio, just coming across people from different parts of Ukraine. So, Serhii explained it very accurately. Having at least passive knowledge of both Ukrainian and Russian is a marker that a person has lived in Ukraine for some time. But Czech and Slovakian are just much closer to each other, that's why if a person understands Slovakian it does not necessarily mean he is from Slovakia, maybe he is from the Czechia.
I know 3 of these languages. Czech and Slovak are way more similar to each other than Russian and Ukrainian. Also, while a lot of Slovaks can actually speak Czech, Czechs might understand Slovak but they don't usually speak it. So yeah, you could say Slovakia is kinda bilingual (not officially though), but there are also plenty of bilingual (and even multilingual) countries in Africa and Asia.
No it is not. Czech and Slovak are considered different languages for political reasons. In reality they are just dialects of one another. Ukrainian and Belorussian could be considered such but Russian is already significant enough and is a different language.
Delighted to listen to the talk. It seems to me that, closer to the beginning of the fourth hour of the talk, both gentlemen started to feel tired, especially Lex.
Thank you for this discussion 🇺🇦
Excellent interview with a profound analysis. Thank you both for an inspiring approach to discover the truth in a huge pile of propaganda, myths, and ongoing political manipulations. We didn't come here to follow the crowd, to fit in or to please anyone. This interview manifests the best way to search for what really is going on.
@Lex, thank you very much for this amazing episode of podcast! I am Ukrainian, so naturally I am biased on the topic of war, but still it's very important for me that you invite people that tell a comprehensive history of East European region. Many people don't understand the drama, difficulty, confusion, connection, dilemmas that surround this discussion between Ukraine and Russia. Many people tend to simplify or narrow down the path of the history into the war as a result of one or two simple historical moments. But truth is, nothing is easy when it comes to Ukraine and Russia. That's why EVEN inside just Ukraine, there will be people telling one story and yet in the same country there will be people telling the other story. There are a lot of emotions going around and very little logical sense. So, I appreciate you inviting a well educated person to talk real historical, political, social facts that happened in this region and led to what has happened.
Yes, but professor is lying.
As a Ukrainian I second this
Finally we saw a Ukrainian guest.
What political, historical and social facts led to the Ukrainian commander taking selfies in front of Bandera's portrait with a smile?
We will not move NATO one inch to the East ! !