Was Reggie Miller Really a Superstar? | Bill Simmons's Book of Basketball 2.0 | The Ringer
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- čas přidán 13. 01. 2020
- Reggie Miller saved professional basketball in Indiana and is one of the greatest shooters of all time. But was he truly a superstar? HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons debates this premise with Shea Serrano.
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Shea dissagreeing with everything Bill says is a nice touch
Facts hurt.
Yea but he’s wrong
But Bill legit needs to have his bullshit called out or he just ends up being insufferable
@G-man
2001 EC 1nd Round. Pacers vs 76ers
Reggie Miller an average: 31-5-2, FG-45% 3P-43% FT-91%
Reggie was 35 years old.
Iverson an average: 31-4-6, FG-41% 3P-26% FT-79%
35-year-old Reggie Miller was as good as Prime Iverson.
Reggie Miller ( age 34 ), In the 2000 Playoffs was better than Kobe Bryant , and in the 2000 Finals he would have defeated Kobe, but Shaq destroyed the Pacers.
@G-man 6"7 Reggie Miller: 18 seasons in the Nba.
He has 10 seasons where he shot over 40% from behind the arc, and 8 seasons - over 90% of the free-throw line. - In the Playoffs, Reggie Miller raised the level of his game, and his statistics in the Playoffs are better than in the regular season.
In 2000, at the age of 34, Reggie Miller led his team to the Nba Finals.
In the 2000 Playoffs, 34-year-old Reggie Miller outplayed players such as Ray Allen ( SG ),
Allen Iverson ( SG ), Latrell Sprewell ( SG ), Kobe Bryant( SG ).
He an average: 24-2-3, FG-45% 3P-39% FT-94%
Playoffs Per Game: ( PTS, RPG, APG, FG% 3P% FT% )
1991/92 = 27-2-5, FG-58% 3P-63% FT-80%
1992/93 = 31-3-3, FG-53% 3P-52% FT-94%
1993/94 = 23-3-3, FG-45% 3P-42% FT-84%
1994/95 = 25-3-2, FG-47% 3P-42% FT-86%
2001 EC 1nd Round: Pacers vs 76ers.
Reggie Miller an average: 31-5-2, FG-45% 3P-43% FT-91%
35-year-old Reggie Miller outplayed one of Iverson"s best league players.
2002 EC 1nd Round: Pacers vs Nets
Reggie Miller an average: 23-3-3, FG-50% 3P-42% FT87%
Reggie Miller was 36 years old.
Even at the age of 39 he was still good.
In the 2004/05 season: 15-2-2, FG-43% 3P-32% FT- 93%
Bill's right, but there's something so appealing about knock-down shooters from the 90s, an era that largely deemphasized touch and skill in favor of physicality and volume scoring.
It's less appealing when the shooter in question flops more often than anyone from his era, and sticks his leg out after a shot is in the air...
To only be able to catch and shoot is weak.
Um no. Not at all. Maybe the early two thousands favored low fg% for volume scoring because zone and more physical defense was allowed. Defenders could basically hand check and be more physical with shooters on the permitter so shooting a three was harder. In addition, bigs like Shaq, the dream, Robinson, Ewing were n the league so their teammates were better off giving them the ball then taking a jumper themselves. MJ had the cleanest mid range jumper ever, Garnett too. Ray Allen was in the league too. I’m actually confused by your comment.
@@coreyeatmon5101
But could you really catch and shoot in the 90s?
@@iman5147 yes
"I thought they were undefeated." Underrated comeback
Shea is the greatest Ringer superstar. He makes any segment better with as little as 10 well placed words!
Reggie was the best player on a squad that went deep in the playoffs 5+ times, held a bunch of 3-pt-related records and was (usually) the best player on his team. Also, he drew in a lot of fans (and enemies- LOL), and helped sell tickets. There's a reason we talk about him today, but don't talk about many other guys who made multiple All-Star teams in the 90s. Show some respect.
If Reggie had been the number 2 option to a great player like Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, or Hakeem then he would have won at least one championship.
loves those two together, the disgust from Shea is amazing, lol
Bottom line: forget all the stats... If I had to face Michael Jordan, I would feel like I had a better chance if I had Reggie Miller on my team than Ray Allen. Absolutely
Bro fr. And Miller over curry and KD.
Their psyche can't hang with MJ.
Skill wasn't enough. You had to be a man.
Too bad we can't take away the stats 😏
@@jakerojas5888 even miller would say you're talking crazy right now
@@_gamepoint_ na...
@@jakerojas5888 This is stupid.
I remember putting Reggie Miller on my All Alien team with Sam Cassell and others. That has to be worth something too.
F0rtysxity this is hella funny😂🤣
Underrated comment right here. Bosh is on if raptors are aliens.
Gheorghe Mureșan, shawn Bradley, vin baker round out the starting 5
@@thecanadianculinarycareers9912 Vin Baker!! Lmao
@@thecanadianculinarycareers9912 I will trade Popeye Jones for Vin Baker
I agree with everything that Bill said, but, I'm not qualified to have an opinion on Reggie because I hated him so much as a player.
Reggie was Reggie, they only made one of him...... OG trash-talker
5 conference finals in 7 years. Yeah that doesn’t happen to the pacers without Reggie Miller. He was SUPERSTAR.
5 Conferance finals in 7 years sounds superstarish to me. I know nothing about 90s basketball but that sounds impresive if he was the only star in those teams,
@@alexisluna1751 Yes I agree with you 7 really good years is all that you really need.
Exactly those teams were good but Reggie helped allow them to even get to that level.
Was Chauncey Billups a superstar? He led the Pistons to 8 straight conference finals...
@@veksone77 He wasn't the player Reggie was. He also didn't generate views or made quite the impact Reggie did either. He was a really good player though.
Green averaging a triple single in gs this year. Elite he is not.
I laughed really loudly at this. Great comment
Casual
This comment is super disrespectful.
@Aaron Posey for as much as his mouth ran during those chip years, this was his chance to get his, to prove he was more than a cog. Turns out steph and clay made this walking brick a somebody and he was exposed as soon as they got hurt.
@xFangs I did😂😂, doesn't make it less true though 😉
Reggie was great but a guy like Clyde Drexler was far better without nearly as much fanfare
@Aboood165 Almost beating someone is legendary?
Clyde also had better teammates, especially in Houston.
James Lockman Clyde couldn’t shoot, nor dribble, and when they were hyping him up to become Jordan’s rival Jordan expose him in that 92 NBA Finals. I think Clyde is overrated and is not a top 50 player all time
Lucious H. Dorsey III I’m not judging Houston years I’m telling you the flaws in his game that even before he got to Houston and Houston didn’t need him. He couldn’t shoot, nor dribble, okay defender, he always had a squad in Portland remember that Portland team was loaded before they drafted him
@Lucious H. Dorsey III if hakeem is your dude at least get his last name right jeeez
Are you not forgetting he was in the Eastern conference with Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Patrick Ewing and I can keep going 🤔
Please keep going because it's gets awfully thin after that.
@@josephjohnroe3678Michael Jordan Patrick Ewing Shaquille O`Neal Dominque Wilkins Grant Hill Allonzo Morning are pretty good competition. Better than what we've seen in the east in over a decade.
@@62lceaser The main consistent competition seemed to be Jordan and Ewing, across the whole decade. Wilkins and the guys on the Cavs early on, then Mourning and Hill briefly later.
@@ja8ames Agreed my main point is that in today's eastern conference Reggie Miller would be considered arguably a top 5 player in the east behind only Giannis Embiid and a Healthy KD
As a Pacer Fan, Reggie Miller is a Superstar and one of my favorite players of all-time, he held that franchise together with (Mark Jackson, Tinsley, Best, Mullin, Hardaway, O'Neal, Rose, Chroshere, Al Harrington, Hibbert) all them years. Every great players has failures.
•1 of the Greatest shooters ever top 3.
•1 of the greatest 3pt shooters ever. Top 3
•when the next 50 Greatest players are announced he needs to be in there.
You praise players now for what he was doing decades before.
Hardaway? Tim or Penny? I dont recall either of them playing in Indiana. But agree he was definitely the glue during all those years that held that franchise together. No one would truly understand his greatness unless you were or a Pacer fan or their rival fan of either Knicks or even Chicago since the late 80s.
This was my favorite podcast in such a long time! Thank you Shea
LUKA DONCIC checks every box on the Superstar checklist. Gotta be an oversight to leave him off---and then leave him off all of the other lists too. Smh.
Wait we don't make that assessment in 1 season. Specially when it's not all said and done.
@@libraalibaba Ticket sales happen immediately. Luka has checked that box for the Mavs since about his first 6 weeks of his career. The Mavs are on national TV all the time now & local TV ratings are way up. Luka checks that box. The Mavs are on pace for 52+ wins this year. We're over half way through the season. You can wait if you want to, but that box is checked for me. Can Luka potentially be the best player in an NBA Finals? You need to see that before it happens before you can cosign it? Then why say potentially? There might be doubts about Luka Doncic but potential isn't one of his shortcomings; he's about as stocked up on potential as any other player in the league. How he doesn't check that box for you. Like I just don't know. That's on you.
@@JoshuaFrick3 wait Zion has too and he hasn't even played yet. If he stays healthy the NBA is gonna push him harder than a pornstar on viagra.
What was so unusual about Reggie Miller was how intense he was off ball. The Pacers ran screens for him and adjusted their offense for him, but it really worked. That team was not full of talent but they were really good. I always had this feeling while watching him that Miller was always putting so much pressure on a defense by how he moved through screens and how fast he could get a shot up that it allowed others on his team to cut and get decent shots up. His impact always seemed to be more than his numbers.
Miller had the problem a lot of players had during that era.
Jordan!
If Jordan was not there he would have gotten 1 Chip and the whole narrative would be different.
He still lost though when Jordan retired the 1st and 2nd time.
@@aka1721 He was past his prime.
Past his prime Reggie Miller and Jalen Rose took Prime Shaq and and just before his Prime Kobe to 6 games in the finals.
Not great but far from bad.
They would have lost to literally any team The played in the finals lol
@@unbiasedunbothered9270 Agree to disagree the Suns and Blazers were not dominant teams the SuperSonics were not either. None those teams even made it back to the conference finals.
You have nothing to base your claim on. Reggie didn't win a ring when Jordan was retired. He didn't win a ring when Jordan retired the 2nd time. He didn't win a ring when Jordan retired for good.
Bill needs to understand Reggie lives right by him in Malibu. Reggie is a good sport ... but you know he's going to respond at some point. Watch your back Bill. :)
This has been going on since 2010, i think, when Bill released his book. Reggie knew who he is, and he knew Bill. He doesn't need Bill to confirm him. Bill is delusional and egotistic. Bill thinks he is a superstar and you have to listen and believe him.
Good, surprising and informative video actually. I agree by your definition and also by other metrics that Reggie wasn't a SUPERstar, I feel that he certainly was a STAR though. Never making a single NBA first or second team and only making the third team three teams in an 18 SEASON career alone should be enough to discredit him as a SUPERstar. You should be a Top 3 player in your position more than three times over 18 years if you're a superstar player imo.
Loving the book of basketball pods 👌🏻👌🏻
Great piece!
It's Miller Time! and he pissed off Spike Lee and New York so he will always be endeared to me
The Knicks won that series 🤦🏾♂️
When the greats such as Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan state that Reggie Miller was the most difficult player they ever had to guard, then it speaks volumes. Kevin Durant recently did an interview where he stated Lebron, Kawhi, and a few others were the most difficult players for him to guard. Alot of you naysayers only look at stats to make your assumptions. Reggie was a superstar for the Indiana Pacers.
Steve Madden give me the exact article or video where Kobe said this. Cuz he never did
Your last sentence makes Bill’s point perfectly
William Morris It can be found on youtube. Kobe said "the most difficult player he had to guard was Reggie Miller.But Nowadays is Carmelo Anthony" This was before 2010.
He was an All-Star in the regular season and a superstar in the playoffs. Best NBA comparison: James Worthy. Best other sport comparison: John Elway. Not sure what Bill would say about Big Game James, but he has rings, because he played on better teams. Carrying a team with Rik Smits and Mark Jackson is harder work. Yes, Reggie was only a five-time All-Star, but he never played with another All-Star.
brewer921 Lies. Reggie lost in first round *5 times* and only played Bulls once
Y'all need to stop lying and trying to rewrite history. Reggie was a Pacer in '98, right? Smits was an all star in '98. Reggie was a Pacer from '02 to '05, right? Jermaine O'Neal was an all star everyone of those years. Artest was an all star in '04. Alternative facts aren't real facts.
@@thomascrowniii1693 I think he meant the 90s when Pacers were Miller's team. When he got old he got carried by Jalen Rose, Jermaine, Artest and others
@@1vaultdweller Smits was an all star in '98. Derrick McKey was all NBA defense in '95 and 96.
Reggie is overlooked due the Pacers being a small-market team. He carried the Pacers to relevance in the 90's in the golden era of wing players.
He cannot be compared to James Worthy, because Reggie Miller was THE best player on those Pacers teams back in the 90's. Worthy was arguably the third best player for those Lakers teams.
This intro was so well written, along with Shea's reactions it's just pure GOLD hahaha
I wish you would release the full video versions of these like the Raptors/76rs vid . They are great.
I feel like this is a strong argument and sentiment felt by many across the country but as a child growing up in Indiana in the 90s, Reggie was bigger than Jordan in my eyes. He's still my all time favorite player to this day. So he may not fit the super star criteria you have but to everyone that watched those teams and him play, he's our Super Star and that's all that matters.
I was a kid in Serbia when he was in his prime, he was and still is one of my favorite players. He was a superstar stop it. People have amnesia when it comes to anybody other then Jordan.
U dresu redzi milera
Reggie was great, but he was NEVER a superstar! Bill broke it down perfectly... pay attention next time! He was one of your favorites, so you're obviously very biased here! I'm not saying that Reggie wasn't fantastic, played with heart, passion, and a no quit attitude, but he was a 5 time all star, zero first, and zero second team NBA! Can't put a superstar label on him. Sorry!
That's a stupid question about Reggie. He was an All Star. He was a superstar. He is a legend. An All Time Great.
Is there somewhere to watch the full video or is this it? Seems like a small segment of a show?
Search Book of Basketball 2.0 podcast, not a full video but full podcast on Reggie and other players
"Draymond"...Elite guy....lol
Comparing him to Bradley Beal is hilarious
2016-19 draymond was a elite on defense and probably the best passing pf in the league he is clearly a system player but he was still an absolute dog
I'm from Indianapolis IN and I was there when Reggie was giving Class A Super Stardom. Once again you look at stats and try to defined a mans career but the stats can't tell you everything. Pacer basketball has always been team centered. Til this very day we play as a team. We have the "face" of the franchise but we try and keep the game about the Team as opposed to one or two players. Reggie was such a legit star that he sacrificed his stats to share the glory with the team. He spent his whole career with the Pacers. He could've went anywhere but he didn't; he stayed because he understood basketball and he had true love for the Game.
He's right. I just watched the 98 ECF Game 7, and he did nothing in the 4th QTR. Took 1 shot. Showed no guts or heart.. It was sad..
I listened to a Thinking Basketball podcast about top scorers of all time, taking into account both regular season and playoff scoring, create metrics that took into consideration era (using relative efficiency) and pace. Reggie Miller was probably the most surprising person on the list, and I believe he was in the top 6 which is crazy. Given his era, Reggie’s scoring efficiency and overall playoff scoring were absolutely nuts.
I think he became a bit underrated as he doesn’t have amazing box score stats at a glance. Even his shooting slashes don’t look as good as some of the slashes we see today, but he got as close as anyone to dethroning Jordan and he probably would be even better playing in the modern era. I know a lot of people didn’t even think he deserved to be an hall of famer, but his ability to score was ridiculous, he had incredible longevity and he’s someone who truly was clutch, with stats supporting it unlike a lot of guy where we see them make a couple game winners and call them clutch.
good segment
Reggie’s Pacers also was the toughest team the MJ Bulls of the 90’s faced and the toughest Finals opponents of the Shaq/Kobe Dynasty.
Numbers dont tell the whole story, Reggie Miller was def elite player back in the 90s
Exactly! I've lived in Indianapolis and have been a Pacers fan my whole life. The Pacers would probably not be here if it was not for Reggie Miller.
@@mmiller7615 facts bro he made the Pacers relevant back then
I agree with Bill's take. My thing is was Reggie ever considered a superstar in the first place? I'd say he is one of those guys who is properly rated not overrated.
He became a great personality for the league after he retired, that's where a ton of his folklore got built up. He was a shooter with a lot of charisma, but he wasn't stopping anyone from scoring, if you didn't get him the ball, he wasn't going to do anything. You remove any starter from those Pacer teams, they fall off just as much as if you removed him.
That choke sign though 😂😂😂
If he's one of the names you remember from a certain era then yes I would consider him a superstar
Going from what they’re saying he’d just be an “elite player” today. Klay Thompson without the defense
Klay thompson is a role player in the 90.s gtfoh.
Jordan Bryant Like Reggie?
Jordan Bryant you can’t take shooting away from him and with his size/defense he’d maybe be better back then
@@jonjuko8859 how? He hasnt proven himself. Like reggie..reggie went to the finals by himself. And klay thompson has only played with a stacked squad in golden state. He never played as the superstar . And if he does then more kudos to him it's just ignorant to bash reggie . And say Thompson is better becuae Thompson isn't mediocre defender in a defenseless era.
Jordan Bryant bum ass era, Klay could average 25 a game no problem elsewhere and Reggie was the 3rd best player when they went to the finals. “Defenseless era” please prove that 💀
Reggie was a superstar hands down. Idc what the stats say, he was a top tier player in the NBA.
There's an entire state that would fight Bill Simmons right this second
Just for this video, the Pacers are taking out the Celtics this postseason.
Oh man! I loved watching Reggie play! Dude was average for 3-3.5 quarters then the man put on his cape and went to work! Reegie was ahead of his time! Many players patterned their game after miller. Players like: Ray Allen, Steph Curry, Rip Hamilton, Tony Parker etc.
Reggie was box office when the lights were their brightest. Till this day Reggie for me is a top 10 player! Stat wise he looks mediocre. Eye test wise the man was special! Must watch tv. Reggie also was one of those rare players that brought emotion to a game.
Name the list of teams that made 5 Conference Finals in seven years , there's not a lot. not to mention he checked almost all of your boxes at the start of the video. Take Robert Horry but pretend Robert Horry was a leader of his team for 18 years, oh, yes that's a superstar in my book
Almost 3 hours worth of content released in 24hrs but you could only dedicate 4.5minutes to basketball? Come on Bill don't forget how you made your mark! More NBA content please!!!
2:56 ....that step back was filthy. James Harden is somewhere nodding in approval.
When Reggie was there: Several conference finals and and NBA Finals appearance.
Since he was gone: 1 cknference finals appearance. 0 NBA finals appearances
Reggie was a superstar
The leader of a team that went to like 5 conference finals in 6 or 7 years is a superstar.
The stones on Reggie.
Everybody was a hacker back then.
No place to land.
Ray Allen > Reggie Miller. Any day of the week. Ray was amazing in his Prime. Much more than a catch and shoot guy. Ray was a legit slasher catching bodies off the dribble in his day. As he got older he relied more on the Reggie Miller type game ansnran off screens but in his younger days...he was going to the rack all the time.
Bulls won 6 championships. How many game 7s did Jordan play in those 6 years?
2.
Bulls Blew out knicks in 92’s game 7.
Pacers and Reggie Miller barely lost in game 7 to the David Stern led Chicago Bulls. Reggie nailed clutch 3 in game 6 in the series as well.
On a personal note, it’s a bummer the Pacers never won, but as I age and get sentimental I like knowing my favorite player from my childhood played his entire career with my team.
Superstar? Don’t know. Don’t care. I like the discussion. the ultimate competitor who never let his chip on his shoulder attitude affect his genuine good-hearted contribution to the game off the court. He didn’t become bitter and cynical. Bob Costas openly cheered for the Lakers in the Pacers only finals appearance. Reggie didn’t get the star treatment until the end of his career, yet He always gave credit to the other stars after his career. Still, he has genuine enthusiasm for the sport when he’s telecasting games. Reggie was/is better to the NBA than the NBA was to him. I’m glad he was on my team, and he’s my favorite player of all time.
Most team rn want a Reggie Miller and Dirk Nowitzki in their line up..
Basically unrelated, but I think a John Stockton episode would be so damn good. The corresponding rewatchable could be 1997 WCF game 6! Stockton basically takes over in the final 3 mins, sends them to the finals, and the Jazz hit their apex.
How is draymond elite but reggie all star 😂
Today's NBA
Right 14 wins through February as the guy
Where's shea's response?? And I always felt a dislike towards Bill Simmons, but had never really heard anything from him that could prove my complete and ultimate distain, definitively. Obviously I, like many other people I suspect, didn't read his book. But Thank you for finally providing the take that I needed Bill you fn D.B. .....Go Pacers
This is wrong so wrong because Ive watched NBA through the 1990's to now. Reggie Miller was awesome. I hated him but after a while I had to give it to him. He was not the ideal atheleticism basketball star in comparison to the greats, but he was definitely a great. 18 seasons with1 team, they loyalty..He is one of only 4 players to score over 35 at the age of 35. 2nd all time 3 pointers. 50 40 90 club. Ray Allen never LEAD a team past the first round. Reggie made it to the finals once and to the conference 5 times against teams that had multiple superstars such as Penny/Shaq, Jordan/Pippen, Kobe/Shaq, Sprewell/Ewing/Houston...
Your trying to change history, when they played the Knicks in the Conference Finals in 99; Ewing, Sprewell and Houston weren't all stars that season and Ewing only played 2 of the 6 games. When they lost to the Bulls in the Conference Finals in '98 neither Rodman or Pippen made the all star team, but Reggie's teammate Rik Smits did.
Don’t disrespect Reggie he’s all we got man
Nathan Dorow Paul George Victor Oladipo Danny Granger?
Jermaine O'Neal was a beast before the injuries
Bill is high. Reggie was filthy back in the 90s. He was Klay before Klay. Carrying Rick Smith, Dale Davis, Antonio Davis, and Derrick McKey to some deep playoff runs. Then when Marc Jackson and Jalen Rose came, he had some good help.
Reggie was cold blooded in the playoffs and at the end of any game esp from 3
Luka??
While I agree that Reggie wasn't a superstar, there is an argument for Reggie to be part of the 2nd tier. Keep in mind, Pacers were a very slow, half-court, inside-out offense team. This is the worst possible situation for a guard to put up big stats, yet Reggie was still very productive. Another, and an even better, argument for Reggie is his RIDICULOUS efficiency. Before 2000s, when it became easier, he was one of only 3 players to be part of 50/40/90 club. From 1989 to 2006, he was top 10 (and mostly top 5) in True Shooting % and points per shot every year, including leading the league. In his prime his efficiency numbers were better then dominant Centers in stats where Centers dominate. This is incredibly impressive considering the vast majority of other players that play(ed) a similar game are very inefficient.
I need more podcasts where bill is shitting on something shea loves. This podcast was hilarious. Shea telling bill hes wrong and saying hes leaving never gets old.
He's borderline superstar to me... I feel like he didn't do enough of the other small things to push him into that all-time great category. Longevity and nice free throw and three point splits are great, but it's not like he got a ton of assists or rebounds. He was just kind of there to score.
By Bill's definition (particularly someone who generates interest on a national level & sell tickets (I assume outside of their home court)) idk if Reggie Miller is a "superstar". Also as Bill says, Reggie only made 3 All-NBA teams. I think part of the allure of Reggie is his clutch ability (which Bill Simmons debunks as not entirely true) and him playing for one franchise his entire 18-year career.
That being said, I think that Reggie always stepped up in the Playoffs in a way that not a lot of 90s stars (save for MJ, Hakeem, and a few others) weren't able to. Bill's comment about Reggie playing in an era of weaker stars (I assume he's talking about SGs and SFs?) is not fair. That's like singling out PFs and Centers today in an era of Guards and Small Forwards. Reggie also had a net ORtg and DRtg difference of +12 which is the same as Dirk Nowitzki's and Karl Malone's and more than Kobe's (+7 pre-Achilles injury). I know ORtg and DRtg are more dependent on a team's offensive and defensive schemes as well as the teammates on court.
The players from the 90s will always have something we lost after the turn of the century, which was a sense of genuine mythology. It's the same reason so rock band will ever have the gravitas of Led Zeppelin, there is no mystique to anything anymore. And Reggie Miller's battles with the Knicks and Bulls are the stuff of legend.
Great segment again. Please never stop with the book of basketball. Its a total pleasure...BUT, it wasnt Shaq who defended the last shot of game 4 vs the magic in 95. He fouled out earlier. I thinks nerds like you should know this, especially when you talk about it. Anyways, we are all human I guess.
Keep 'em coming, Bill! Im listening...
If you took away his battles with the Knicks, nobody would't even remember Reggie but those battles with the Knicks were fucking GLORIOUS. LOL!!!! It's just proof that NYC Media and Madison Square Garden can make you a superstar for a moment. You can ask Jeremy Lin.
The Pacers were one of the last 4 teams standing in 5 of 7 seasons from 1994-2000. They lost in 3 separate game 7’s in the ECF (‘94, ‘95, ‘98), to the 8 seeded Knicks in 1999 in 6 games, and to the Lakers in 6 games in the 2000 NBA finals. They played the Knicks 6 times in the playoffs from 1993-2000. Reggie had one final shot at a championship in 2003-04 on a 61 win team. They lost to Detroit in 6 games.
He was a slightly better Allan Houston with swag. Not a superstar, but a GREAT long distance shooter and very good scorer.
Bill says “he would be better today” about damn near everyone. Yea no shit. Spacing is great. Other than bigs who can’t move on the perimeter or score everyone would be vastly improved today. And that’s without even getting into load management.
I can’t believe it’s 2020 and people still think Draymond “ Elite “
Draymond is a good system player but they have to make him elite to make the narrative of Gs having 5 all stars when they beat LeBron or it makes the media look like liars but real fans know
Dray is a great piece to that puzzle that was Golden State but he’s 4th option on a great team and first on a crap team
@@charleswilson4526 he's not gonna be first on the crap team as well.. lol.. I'm a gsw fan but dray is a great role player who can pass, rebound and defend.. he never is a scorer..
@@8hype you do realize the warriors win no titles without draymond right?
Reggie is 10th all time in Offensive Win Shares, 14th all time in True Shooting Percentage, 18th all time in total Win Shares and 22nd all time in Value over replacement player. I'm a big fan of your work, Bill, and agree with you the VAST majority of time, but not on this subject. Reggie is an all-time great.
I want him to say honestly that Anthony Davis is the most overrated star in nba history. For years I’ve heard people say he’s the 4th best player in the league but historically, great big men don’t lose as much as him.
@@mars2b KG atleast made the playoffs. KG won 45+ games 6 times in minnesota. AD won 45+ twice, and he had demarcus cousins n jrue holiday. you remember what kg did when he got sprewell n cassell. wcf. Imagine if KG had jrue holiday as his pg. a 2nd or 1st team all defense.
PPPppppppaaahhhhhhaaahahahahahahaaahaaaa!! Bruh, I just...wow! Ahaha!!
As a Pacer fan I'm obviously going to say he's a superstar. He was the spark. He was the face of that year of basketball where we were half-assed relevant.
Yup and he kept them relevant from 93 to 2000. That's pretty impressive. Also he was very good defender and clutch shooter.
My rating system is a little different. There are all-stars, stars, super-stars and then icons... Anybody else is serviceable "okay" or bad. The difference between a star and a super-star in my book is if people who don't watch your sport at the time you are playing know who you are and you are the face of the franchise, a star is great, but only known by people who follow that sport. An Icon is still talked about daily in mass 10, 20, 30yrs after they retire. Sometimes a serviceable player can be a one time all-star if they have a really good season. Reggie was a star who teetered on being a super-star.
What I don't get about this episode is that it doesn't mention "The Secret". If you listen to earlier episodes of Bill's podcast he goes on about "The Secret" and its importance to basketball. Reggie was all about "The Secret"...
Reggie is one of the main guys that proves certain stats are really a massively overrated as proof to a guys ability and can be twisted to fit any argument
The guy was a superstar and anyone that watched his career will agree he was an amazing player
I watched and he was garbage. My opinion has nothing to do with being a Knicks fan either.
Russell Westbrook checks out everything on his super star checklist
I read Bill's book in 2010 and it was hirlarious and well informed. When he was talking about 1978 in particular- the writing was so vivid, I thought I was in 1978. He does play favorites however as he has personal memories of guys like McHale, Dennis Johnson, etc. He is inaccurate and is too hard on Clyde Drexler, Patrick Ewing and Karl Malone. They were talented, great competitors but they had to go up against Jordan in his prime.
Does Reggie Miller tick the boxes on "Bill Simmon's Superstar Checklist"? Well, let's see...
- sells tickets ✓
- generates local/national interest ✓
- guarantees avg team 45-50 wins ✓
- best player on a Finals team ✓
🎤 ⬇️
I never looked at it from this perspective, but as the years go by and you see how many guys get better and better games--it’s sad, but I follow what Simmons is saying.
He was damn good, but not a superstar.
Flare for the Moment is a perfect description--those series against the Knicks in their-90’s were true classics.
When he was good, he was DAMN good.
Was he as good as Ray Allen---it’s close. But I give Ray the nod. Everywhere Ray ended up, he made team better. And, historically, may have even been a better shooter.
Great discussion
Reggie is a God in Indiana. Growing up in Indiana you had Reggie and then you had Peyton Manning. Chanting "Reggie, Reggie, Reggie" was a favorite pastime and then shouting "Boom Baby!" basically describes my childhood.
Reggie did it with ONE TEAM. And I agree with Bill’s assessment but also like he said he never had a player close to his level on his team and still made 5 conference finals. With MJ’s Bulls and the Knicks and Magic being what they were. And made a Finals appearance. I’d say he maximized his abilities on the court.
He never had a player close to his level? Jermaine O'neal was an all star 3 out of the 5 years he and Reggie were teammates and he was either all NBA second or third team in those same 3 seasons. Artest was DPOY, an all star and was all NBA 3rd team in '04.
Reggie was old asf by the time those guys came around 😂
Reggie is probably my favorite player of all time, but not because I think he's the best. He did, however, hold my interest post Bird-Magic era and put the Pacers on the map for me (and many). I drove across the country twice to watch him play the Knicks in the playoffs, so I think Bill might be underrating Reggie's superstar appeal, and attributing it to Stern getting him calls is, as SAS would say, blasphemous. Nonetheless, Reggie was not a player that could carry a team every night in that era. The physicality of the defense on and off ball was more intense, which made Reggie's accomplishments more intermittent and more meaningful, and watching him was different than any other player. Watching Reggie fight to get open and go back door or flare outside was unlike the way I had watched Bird and Magic and MJ. Reggie changed my awareness of the game, and yeah, I do believe he was prototypical of the game we watch now. The frustration of watching Reggie get shut down was always heartbreaking. Given one other player of his caliber (Jalen Rose and Chris Mullin were almost close) Reggie would have won multiple titles, but defenses could typically adjust to shutting him down for two games in a seven game series. An offensively talented power forward paired with Reggie would've definitely won titles, but alas, it never happened. I do think the Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, and the Knicks and the Bulls all benefited from their superstar and big market status when going against the Pacers. In a truly neutral environment, I feel like the stacked and deep Pacers coached by Bird should've won at least one title, but alas, it never happened...
How is Reggie voted as one of the best 75 players of all time when he wasn't even a first ballot hall of famer?
Was this recorded preseason? Cause Where's luka?
Thats actually the best categorizing and most agreeable to me so far. I'm so tired of seeing people put Anthony Davis over James Harden saying AD is a better player. Complete bullshit.
Catch and Shoot players can definitely be Superstars and Goats. You can never take away the ability Reggie had to get himself free for a shot even when EVERYONE knew it was coming. He never had other stars on that team and always took his team deep in the playoffs. Unfortunately Media always shits on smaller Markets and praises Teams like the Lakers that are always willing to trade their whole roster to win now. Smaller Markets represent the grind. I'll always admired guys like Duncan and Miller b/c they embody the True Competitor
Y'all need to stop rewriting history. Jermaine O'neal was an all star every year he and Reggie were teammates. Artest was an all star and DPOY in '04.
Only reason Reggie didn’t make the all Nba wasn’t because of his skill it was because media members who vote didn’t like him....I hate how the media tries to determine someone’s accolades based on their personality
Just as long as we can get him off the air sometime soon. it was hard enough to watch him all those years. Now I have to listen to him talk about games for the next 25 years?
That is a stupid question Bill. Im from a Southeast Asian country (born and lived), never been to US but I know Reggie Miller was a superstar! In the 90’s EAST, Reggie was giving everybody the biz. Even pushed the Bulls to game 7 in the conference finals with one or two possessions could’ve made the Bulls loss, not made the finals and only 5time champs. He would’ve killed even better in this era.
One thing can't be argued with. Reggie Miller's reputation now, is far greater than it was back in the 90s
100% agree. There seems to be some sort of nostalgia factor with him. I would argue that without the 2 famous mid-90s moments against NY they aren't even having this conversation. I watched Reggie's whole career - he was basically Glen Rice with a bigger mouth and a playoff reputation. In other words, fine player, never a top tier star. I think that he is still on TV has a lot to do with it honestly.
@@Comictalent Name 5 shooting guards who were better than Reggie in the 90's. You can't use Kobe because he wasn't even a starter until the 98-99 season. I'll wait.....
@@mmiller7615 But see, and i commented this above. How did he never make an all nba 1st or 2nd team the the 3rd team only three times in EIGHTEEN seasons. I'm not gonna look em up, but clearly there were better shootings guards if he never made those all nba teams..
@@AHamp123 I'm a lifelong Pacers fan and have lived in Indianapolis my whole life. As a small market team, the Pacers are often overlooked by the national media (who selects the All-NBA players.) The same thing happened to Grant Hill up in Detroit.
@@mmiller7615 But that's not especially relevant. Even if he is top 5 shooting guards of the 90s that's not a criteria for the HoF. Jordan clearly, Drexler clearly, Iverson clearly, and he's in that next group with Dumars, Richmond, Rice, etc. that's not bad company but it's not all-time superstar company either... I could even throw in Ray Allen (clearly a better player) but he didn't peak until the 2000s so left him out.
I’d say you are correct on everything
But...
My man was a superstar
Ahead of his time tho for sure
The argument for Miller as a superstar, while ludicrous, is approximately 394829392892 times more defensible than the one that has Draymond Green as "elite"
he was a superstar though ... probably one of the most popular jerseys outside of his hometown after Jordan... everyone rocked that 31 PACERS JERSEY
@@CuspOfTheFlame In today's era he would be way better. The spacing and no hand checking combined with teammates that could hide his flaws. He's a star.
@@libraalibaba yeah totally... imagine him joining the lakers now .. all his cutting and insta-3's
Maybe the numbers aren't great, but he made 6 conference finals when his best teammate was Rik Smits.
Stephen Jackson is in the stands! 👊
the MJ stans who somehow glorified MJs competition against scrubs like John Starks and made Reggie seem like a modern day Steph Curry etc are the reason Reggie is looked at like this lol those same MJ stans never mention that their coach won 11 championships with two different franchises, say Scottie Pippen was not as good as he is despite having a better win % without MJ (MJ has a losing win % percentage without Scottie btw), and saying dudes like BJ Armstrong, Toni Kukoc, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper etc etc were not all stars, dpoys, and 6th men just to boost his myth up so much