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MIDI Guitar 2, Hexaphonic pickups and BOSS GP-10, is this the best setup ever?
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- čas přidán 21. 11. 2021
- This is a discussion that has been around for a while, taking place at a few different guitar and MIDI guitar forums, that I have had somewhat of an interest in but perhaps thought was too much trouble for too little gain. I’ve seen the subject of using hex pickups to send on six separate audio channels (one per string) monophonically tracked by six instances of MIDI Guitar 2, only to be merged into a single MIDI stream fed to an instrument in a DAW in the end. It has always felt like too much of a workaround for me, but I must admit I may have been wrong. I was convinced by (my now good friend) Anthony Lopez (thyshadowdragon999) to take the plunge, dig out my BOSS GP-10 that I purchased as a spur-of-the-moment thing from one of those going-out-of-business clearance sales all too common among the music stores today. Well, perhaps I didn’t expect all that much, but boy was this the best move ever. First of all, the setup worked great and is the perfect complement to any solo instrument recording one might do. This setup takes care of everything polyphonic, be it an instrument or an ensemble or what have you. For all those occasions where you’ve wanted to be able to just play that minor second interval or, as I’ve seen a lot of people asking for, those bigger chords; here is your solution. And secondly, I found a use for my Roland Hex PU guitars again! If you have a Hex PU-equipped guitar, and a Boss GP-10, look at the video and try it for yourselves. I can almost guarantee you won’t be disappointed. Almost. As always, questions in the comments. And if you like this stuff, why not show some support?
Yes success😎 I am using the GI-20 with a GK-3.
I hooked up the GI-20 via midi to my audio/midi interface and opened my DAW (Studio One 5) on a windows pc,
I then setup an audio track with an instance of MIDI BASS and set midi input within MIDI BASS to ANY / Omni. I have the GI-20 listed as an external midi controller in the midi options, set to receive from the audio/midi interface with the audio/midi interface set to MIDI ALL and Split Channels ticked.
I then added 4 midi instrument tracks with no actual instruments on them and set each one to receive from MIDI BASS from a midi channels 1 to 4 to correspond to the pickups of the Roland GK3B. I muted the output on the audio instance of MIDI BASS and left the instrument tracks active and BINGO !! polyphonic MIDI BASS 😊
Sorry for the long winded explication, but I’ve been trying to work out how to do this for a while.
Awesome! I am looking forward to you making a video on that setup, inspiring other Bass players too? 😀👍
@@lofileif I’m not actually able to do video as I have no clue how. The setup process would be somewhat similar to what you did. Although you are correct about the output, stereo only. Still it seems to work and actually tracks better than I expected.
On every video of you I'm both amazed by the great level of detail on your explanations and also on your guitar collection, that modified Parker with the Sustaniac and Hex pickup in satin Black is awesome! 🙂
Oh, thanks 😊 🙏 You’ll be glad to know then, that there’s more. 😀
@@lofileif Great! 🙂
Excellent review!!! Congratulations!
Thank you Juan! 🙏
este video es lo mas cercano a un cientifico en la edad media descubriendo una magia rarisima y explicandoselas a sus compas de lo impresionado que esta
😀🙏🙏🙏
This is exactly what I was looking for!
Glad to hear! 😃👍
Well I have Jam origin midi guitar 2 already. And I also read on the forum page that six channel feature will be added for hexaphonic pickup users in the upcoming midi guitar 3.
Gonna get myself the boss sy1000 to get the nice synth patches and guitar modelling along with this idea. This equals the perfect studio!
I think it might be a little early to read it as a promise of a six channel feature. I believe JamO said that it would be possible, or something along those lines. I would wait with buying anything until I knew what features actually make it to the finished product. I just don’t want anybody to be dissapointed or feeling mislead by some vague promise on the forum at this point!
@@lofileif Okay. I'll wait and see what the good people at Jam origin has in stored for the new version!
@@jordon.melodiz426 Sounds like a great idea! 😀👍
Great job. I've been on some of those forums talking about this same technique myself. I've been on the fence about pulling the trigger on a breakout box for the Roland 13 pin. I've got a very old Photon, a GI20, a couple of Roland hexaphonic processor pedals and unfortunately I jumped on the SY-300 instead of waiting on the SY-1000 - which you probably know has individual string audio through USB when using a GK3 pickup, similar to the GP10, I imagine. I was considering just making my own breakout box and running the 6 taps from the 13 pin to inputs on a 6 ch audio interface to get the signal up a bit. I imagine this would get me close to what you're demonstrating. But you realize what we are approaching here... If someone would just put the processing power of six instances of MG2 in a rack or desktop enclosure with USB and MIDI out, process the six strings hexaphonically within the box, we'd have a much simpler solution. Make that box a little smaller so you can attach it to the top of a guitar and put a breath input on it and now we have something. But until then, what you are doing is definitely the cleanest and most expressive system yet.
Hi Gary, and thanks for the interesting input. I am too going for the breakout option actually (although the breakout cable version) since my GP-10 solution only worked until yesterday. An unfortunate update and the driver wasn't supported, and as a result no more experimenting with this setup in a while! In a not too distant future MIDI Guitar 3 will be able to track polyphonically MPE style with successive notes on different channels and that will be a great improvement in itself, but it will also support a 6 channel in solution which will be even better. There are a lot of things to be done still. I like everything to be wireless. So what I would like is something like a multichannel wireless transmitter directly connected to the 13pin perhaps? That would work for me. For me, the base of the system lies in the tracking software, and is thus a software rather than hardware issue. But I would be happy with anything that works, and everything that is better! 😀
@@lofileif and I may have forgotten to mention - though probably have in other comments - is that I have been an MG2 user for quite a while and I'm also excited about the upcoming update. Looking forward to hearing about your breakout solution!
@@lofileif Hi LoFiLeif, this is amazing! although I almost bought a gp-10 (breakout option would be hard for me to acquire from where I am) good thing i've read this comment first "An unfortunate update and the driver wasn't supported", can I ask what was updated that it won't let you do this anymore?
@@onomatopoeia1969 Hi man! That is fortunately old news now. I updated to OS 11.6.1 (Big Sur) for some reason, and that GP-10 driver wasn’t supported. It took a while and a few attempts but I did find a working driver in the end. So thanks for reminding me to mention that, if anyone else were wondering. That breakoutbox i still a great (better) solution as it allow for this directly without relying on any mediary drivers or hardware. But the one i had in mind I couldn’t get due to new trade agreement rules in EU, so I’m glad this worked out for the time being. 😀👍
@@lofileif Sorry for jumping in later, but in case you want to make that breakoutbox, provided you got an hex pickup but don't have a GP-10, wouldn't you still need a 6-input audio interface?
I'm revisiting this video a year later and it got me thinking: run this setup as normal, then split the regular guitar signal with an ABY box to MIDI Guitar 2 and create a huge orchestral sound by spreading all the outputs amongst the stereo field.
Are you thinking of doing it, or have you done it already? I’d love to hear the result if you have. Personally, I’ve been preoccupied with MG3 for some time now and haven’t revisited that particular GP10 setup in a while.
@@lofileif I haven’t. I literally just thought of it when this video popped back up. I probably could as I primarily use the Fishman TriplePlay Connect on iOS. I haven’t bought the full version of MIDI Guitar 2 yet so I could only try it with the piano sound.
I've been playing Logic software instruments. I need to figure out how to put the separate strings on separate tracks. I definitely want to try this.
It is all in here I believe! 👍
I’m looking into getting a midi pedal to use with MG2. Maybe the Behringer one that has the two volume pedals so I can separately control the dry instrument signal and the midi input? Do you know if it plugs into the computer through usb or do I need an additional midi input?
Hey there! If you are looking at the FCB1010 it doesn’t seem to have any USB connectivity. I only see traditional 5-pin MIDI (DIN) on that. So if you want to be able to connect without additional converters or hubs I’d go for something else!👍
Brilliant!
Thanks. 🙏 But don't forget to check the new software MIDI Guitar 3 out too. It is the next generation of this software.
Sounds great. I wonder if something similar could be done with a Variax. It too has a Piezo Based hex pickup. But I've not heard of anyone exploiting it beyond the software from line 6.
I have a variax standard and it does have incredible dynamic tracking, especially with alternate timings and acoustic sounds. My understanding is that the modeling occurs within the guitar.
Might be worth looking into. Also, I wonder if Line 6 would be interested in giving any helpful information on doing such a thing. They have a lively forum.
Anyway, good job man. Love the stuff you do and have even downloaded your scripts for Mozaic on iPad to use with geoshred. Brilliant stuff.
Thanks a bunch! I don’t know about the Variax unfortunately, I never took that route. This particular setup build from the 6 audio channels provided by the GP-10 as much as anything else, and the 13-pin is integral there. What kind of connectors do the Variax have?
@@lofileif I was thinking the same about a variax guitar. I also I don't have one but, what it has (besides the normal output 6.35 jack) is a rj45 to USB cable to do alternative tuning (modifying every single string of desired) in their workbench software for PC/Mac. I don't think its piezo pickup is similar to the one you use in your guitar. The variax has a piezo pickup per string but I think it might work different. Looking forward for MIDI Guitar 3
Hi Jose! If that PU output is in any possible to get as a per string output into a DAW it should work, but as I have no experience from it I wouldn’r know. 🤷♂️MIDI Guitar 3 is most likely going to be awesome! 👍
@@lofileif the variax cable is basically similar to a cat 5 Ethernet cable. I think perhaps with one extra wire though. The pickup is a piezo based pickup with sensors in the saddles. This allows. For really good acoustic simulation as well as on the fly retuning.
Ok, sounds like the prerequisites are there. But what software interface do you use to get 6 audio channels? Does the Variax interface allow for this?
Nice one, LoF. Are you saying the MG3 will make it possible to do the same without using something like a GP-10-which are costly?
I am saying I do hope and believe so! It is hard to promise anything though, but the ambitions are there. That much I can say! 😀👍
Love your content and paying. One question I have is do you know of any other alternatives to the Boss GP-10 that can split the midi channels to a DAW?
Even for just the conversion it seems like the Boss is still a worthwhile purchase but other than this function it really has no other appeal with all the presets kinda moot when it comes to comparing it to what VST's can do. Just wondering is there a device either more simple to do the job or or at the other spectrum end more appealing that can perhaps be useful in other ways.
In summary though it seems like having separate channels and instances in the DAW is really advantages and we are really lucky to have you pushing the boundaries trying to find the best setup for everyone so thank you. Your dedication is legendary!
Hey! As far as I know there are three ways to go if you are looking for a hex PU to 6channels alternative to work. GP-10, Sy -1000 (I think also has this 6 channels of audio over USB) , or using a Breakout cable like this: www.separate-strings.co.uk/breakout%20cables%20and%20more.html
For me, personally, it was just a question of testing gear I already had, (talking about the GP-10 solution) and I would not recommend investing in it for the purpose of MIDI conversion since you have no idea how long Roland decides to support these units drivers. It felt a little like touch and go with this last update TBH, and I don't know if there will be a new if needed. Both the sounds and their own MIDI conversion feels obsolete, when comparing to plugins and software solutions.
Multiple channels is a very interesting way to work, but not necessarily one for each string. There are other ways to work with setting up nowadays, and as soon as MIDI Guitar 3 is out I will be presenting some really crazy ones. So don't go buy any unnecessary expensive hardware just yet. Help is just around the corner!
👍
@@lofileif Thanks allot for the advice. I shall stay tuned!
Hi and thanks for the video. Very inspirational and pretty amazed by your playing. If it s possible i have a few question for you. I m thinkin about gettin the gp10 and guitar midi 2 mostly for composing and for teaching. How accurate with a clean playing ste are jazz chords? And they would translate in logic music score. My ability on keyboard is almost zero so i need the midi guitar possibilities. Thanks for the work and passion you are gifting us
Hi, and thanks for those kind words! Using the combination MG2 & GP10 will no doubt give you very good results, but still there is no setup (today) that I know of that will give you any guitar audio-to-midi-scoring ability to speak of. Composing (recording) and performing is absolutely possible, as I have been trying to display in my videos. Using the GP10 setup allows for whatever voicing and chord since there are6 monophonic streams rather than any messy polyphonic tracking involved. JamOrigin are however working on the next version with much improved polyphony, and perhaps it will be good enogh to replace the Gp10 setup too. If you haven’t purchased the GP-10 yet I would probably advise you to wait with that. But on the other hand, I don’t have a date for the release of MG3, so it is more or less a question of how much of a hurry you are in to get started?
@@lofileif the hurry is more in regards of the ability to track and have a musical score almost ready( i guess i will still need some clean up to do) thanks for the quick answer and i guess even buying the gp10 if midi guitar 3 will be out at some point i would still get it for when i need to be mobile just with guitar and a laptop ( teaching) . If i can ask you one morequestion. Have you tried the fishman triple? Is the pickup on his own with the software able to geberate 6 different track?
I have tried the FTP myself, but I have never got it to work properly. I have always had connection dropout issues, and I think it is because of the actual unit (I have) itself. So I can't really say anything convincingly, one way or the other. But those who use it say it is the fastest solution because of its hardware/software integration. I find the software clunky, and velocity and bends recognition lacking somewhat. But perhaps it is the best alternative on the market for guitar-to-score right now? I really don't know, to be honest. I believe almost everything is in the input itself, the sloppier we play, the more we have to clean up, I am afraid.
Hello LoFiLeif. Do you find string gauge making a difference. I have recently went to flatwound 11s from regular 10s and have noticed many improvements with my GR-55. Great channel. Bless.
Hey there! Insofar as tracking and string gauge are related on a technical level, I really can’t say. Especially for the GK systems setup. It is said to be easier for the JamOrigin to track slighly thinner strings (009 are recommended) Myself, I go between 10s or 11s depending on what is avalible at home or at my local music store at the moment! Playabilty with control is my motto, so I would probably expect less bum notes with 11s over 10s, but it all comes down to how you handle your instrument I guess 🤷♂️
If this has been asked, please forgive, but couldn't one put an iteration of Falcon (for instance) on six respective midi channels and use Mono Mode per the Midi Output? Thereby triggering Falcon per channel?
Yes, you can! Not using 6 instances of Falcon in this, but three (?) and thee other instruments:
czcams.com/video/mSzFVQ5F0Eo/video.html
@@lofileif Thank you! That was fast. I came back to edit to six instances within a Falcon instrument... but lo! no need. Haha. Thanks again. I shall watch. Am contemplating getting the GP-10 due to this video, which I've watched twice. Have been using the Triple Play since its release and it's fine, but that clustering of midi notes per track is definitely wonky.
Great video Leif! What sound are you using on the Boss for audio out? Or is it possible to loop through the signal from the gk-pickup direct in the gp-10?
Hi! I am using the GP-10 exclusively as a 6 channel audio interface, so I am not using any particular sounds from the GP-10. I could just as well use a breakout box or cable and a 6 channel audio interface, but this way I get all 6 channels into the computer right away via USB.
@@lofileif So, if I understand you correctly, the audio signal coming out of the GP-10 is the pure GK p.u. sound?
Exactly! 👍
Thanks man! I wanna use godin lgxt with boss gp-10 asap. Does it work perfectly?
I don’t know from personal experience. I haven’t tried it myself, but as long as the Godin works with the GP10 to begin with, it should work fine.
Thank you for your videos on midi guitar! Now that this video is 2 years old, are you still using the gk3 / gp10 setup? Or have you found an even better solution?
Hi, and thanks! Well, since I have been part of the testing tram of MG3, I have used that exclusively for the last year or so. It has all of the benefits from that GK/GP-10 setup, except for separate string splitting. But on the other hand it has MPE, so I am very happy with that. I hope you guys can get your hands on that too soon enough! 👍
@@lofileif Thanks for your response! So just to clarify, when you are using MG3, you are just running straight into your soundcard with a normal instrument cable? And you don't see any benefit from using a special hex pickup?
Exactly! The additional benefit I would get from using a hexPU also with MG3 is limited to the istrument/tuning-per-string stuff. (So I don't use that) If you like to see the MG3 software in action, check out the videos on "Physical Modeling", "Sad state of MIDI Guitar 2023" or "Best plugins of 2023"
Hi.. I'm extremely new to the world of midi. I have a GP10 and GK3 pickup on my guitar. This video exactly demonstrates what I wanted to achieve with my gear, though I'm not sure I understand the role of the audio interface in this setup. Could I not directly feed my GP10 usb out to MG2 and send output from Ableton Live 11 back to GP10 USB in?
Thanks in advance for your guidance :)
Hi man! Are you asking if you can use your GP10 to create the MIDI you send to Abelton vis USB? Sure you can, but you will only get a single MIDI stream (not one per string), and it will be of poorer quality than the setup I am displaying here. You can use it for some synth Pads and stuff, but it will not give you the polyphonic bends and other stuff with the same amount of control. Try to use the internal Boss GP10 MIDI for some stuff and you'll see, that the results unfortunately aren't that good. with my setup you instead skip the internal GP10 MIDI part, and only use its ability to send out the six channels of audio instead, and leave the MIDI conversion or translation process to the MIDI Guitar 2 software.
Thanks a lot. That helps me with a part of my query. 2nd part: you showed Scarlett audio interface in your setup. Would that be required if I'm using the GP10, or can I simply use GP10 as my audio interface?
I.e. GK3 > GP10 OUT > 6 instances of MG2 > DAW > GP10 IN.
Yeah, I think I mention this somewhere. I use two audio interfaces because I have my Focusrite setup for ALL monitoring purposes, independent of what sources of input I use. This also helps with making videos, not having to go in and change sound sources and stuff. If you want to stick with your GP10 as the ONLY audio interface you use, that would be fine too, of course.
did you ever find out how to fix the dynamics/velocity problem? Also would the fishman tripleplay work like the boss pickup for this to work? thanks
Hi man! No, I haven't solved the dynamics issue really. But then again, I haven't spent a lot of time on it either. On the Fishman PU: sure, as long as you can get 6 separate channels out of the Fishman software , audio or midi, so absolutely. I just tried to revive my old FTP unit the other day, but I can't stand that glitchy interface loading connection to controller all the time. So I am sorry to say I won't be of much help on the Fishman stuff questions in general! 🤷♂️
@@lofileif thank you very much for all your help and info!
No problem! I am here if you need me! 😀🤝👍
I’m a bassist could I use a similar setup using a Roland GI-20 audio to midi interface to my Scarlett and 4 instances of midi bass in my daw?
I don’t think so. The GI-20 can’t send out four separate channels of audio, right? If it can you don’t need the scarlett for anything more than monitoring the output from the computer. I have an additional interface because I don’t want to use the GP-10 for audio out (latency reasons).
Perhaps I missed it , but what is the hardware routing?
1) 13pin hex output => GP10
2) GP10 5pin midi output => audio interface
3) audio interface USB output => computer DAW
Thanks for the clarification! Your videos are great!
Thanks David!
1) is correct. Then GP-10 is the audio interface, so USB (GP-10) to computer.
@@lofileif Thanks for the reply and sharing your experience. What a clever solution to this guitar-to-midi problem: simple, yet elegant! I almost sold my GP10 and GK3 but thought I ought to have one last look around to see if someone had made progress on this when I came across your video. Gotta love the internet ...
@@davidw551 Thanks again David! And fact is, I purchased my GP-10 a while ago, and haven’t used it much before this video. This was just an experiment obviously awaiting the next version of MIDI Guitar (3)where we hope to find a 6channel-in function, so we don’t have to do this workaround. 👍
thanks you for your guiding my dear lord
Thank you for watching 👍🙏
how are you getting the tremolo bar, to work as vibrato for the midi instruments? also does this setup finally fix playing bigger chords, like 3rd fret G on e string, while tapping the 15th fret high e string? tapped chords, of far intervallic distances. thank you
It's in the software to allow pitch bend (vibrato arm).
@@theatremusician thanks, i still wonder if this setup can fix the bigger chords, problem with tapping low notes and high ones
Yes, matching bend range in MIDI Guitar 2 with the bendrange in the virtual instrument you are playing gives you the possibility to use any pitch change action (tremolo bar or vibrato) to translate to the software instrument! And yes, as I demonstrate in the video, this setup allow for whatever kind of chords you can come up with, small or big!
@@lofileif thank you, i really hope mg3 fixes all this stuff without this extra hardware.
@@usernotavailable1658 Yeah, this is more for all of us that might already have it for some reason, and like me never even using it! 😬
Very interesting video. Are there any alternatives to using the GP-10? I want to do this, but $350+ is a bit steep considering I would never use anything in the actual pedal.
Sure! There’ a breakout cable alternative. www.separate-strings.co.uk/breakout%20cables%20and%20more.html
@@lofileif Interesting. If I understand this correctly, the six cables alone (without no breakout box) would be plugged into a USB mixer/interface, which then would go into a computer, allowing for the six channels to be used in a DAW?
@@PfaffPfantom Exactly! This would have been my preferred setup, really. But i didn’t have a big enough interface, and Bill (the separate-strings guy) just stopped selling to Sweden, for customs reasons (Brexit).
@@lofileif Do you know if the GI-20 is capable of doing this? I read the manual but it doesn't cover this exactly. However, it does mention Mono Mode which says "In this mode, each individual string uses a separate channel,
thus totaling six channels".
Edit: Never mind, I just noticed a comment below that mentions getting the GI-20 to work with bass guitar. I think I might go this route -- would be cheaper than buying a breakout cable and a mixer. I just hope I can get it working with Bitwig. Thanks for all of your help.
@@PfaffPfantom Do consider the fact that MIDI Guitar 3 is under development! I can’t say when it is going to be released, because I don’t know, but if it is (just) the better polyphonic tracking you are looking for, you might be wise to wait with buying a lot of gear?
Great discussion! … naive question…is it possible to link a hexaphonic pickup/ 13 pin output to a usb/ camera kit adapter for use with ios on iphone/ ipad with AUM / Audiobus and AUV3?
Two questions I guess?
1: Can 13pin output interface with ios auv3 via midiguitar 2?
2: Does a connector for 13 pin to usb exist or must it be a hand-built “breakout box?”
Hi Anthony! I don't do most of my work on the iPad/iPhone, so I haven't really looked around for a solution. But to my knowledge Boss GP-10 isn't class compliant, so you can't connect it directly to the iPad (just using something like a camera USB adapter). It wouldn't recognize it, and furthermore I don't think Roland has any drivers for iOS. The way I would go about things is, I'd get a class-compliant 6-channel IN audio interface that I'd know worked with iPad, and go for something like www.separate-strings.co.uk/breakout%20cables%20and%20more.html
Thanks, I’ll check the link. I had a working set up using iphone, irighd2 & Fishman Connect combined via a USB mini coupler so I could run and Acoustic guitar pickup, a digital processed guitar and a midi input all internally (inside the guitar) with one output jack. Worked a treat for a few years but crashed 6 months ago with the midi connection no longer working when combined with the irigHD2 interface. I thought it was maybe an ios update that caused the breakdown? As a result I moved on to Midiguitar 2 and found your great channel so “alls well that ends well!”
Haha! That is one positive way of viewing it! 😀 I like it! Yeah, I have had a modest attempt at getting the FTP to work for me, but I gave up on that a few years ago. Thought of trying the Connect version, but never got around to, and now I KNOW I don't need to! 😊
@@lofileif For clarity, the Fishman Connect worked a treat and still does on its own but the combination with an audio interface via the usb mini passive hub is what recently failed. ( maybe it needs a powered hub?) Fishman support were also really helpful in guiding me through the set up which allowed monophonic string routing on iphone. I would still be using it if I could figure out how to get the combined audio interface and Fishman Connect to work again via the usb hub…don’t want to lay the blame on the Fishman TPpickup as it seemed to coincide with apple security updates on iphone.
On the bright side Midiguitar2 is grand and 3 looks to be really exciting so I’ll be watching your channel for news and tips!
Off to set up my Boss bluetooth midi expression pedal to control Midiguitar 2 on iphone via AUM…
@@anthonymcgrath9301 I am always interested in setups, so if you get the expression pedal to work, would you please let me know? 😀
If you feel like the raw sound of the GK3 isn't suited for processing by the Midi Guitar 2 software, you could choose a "modelled" pickup sound from the GP 10 and then send the resultant signal to Midi guitar 2 and it should sound better.
Hi man! Have you tried that yourself? I don't see how you could forward modeled sound to anything but the first stereo pair channels (1&2) from the GP-10. My setup here is obviously dependent on the (other) six channels coming out of the GP-10. But I can of course sharpen the incoming audio on a per-track level in Abelton.
@@lofileif - Oh right. Sorry hadn’t thought of that. On second thoughts there is a company called Cycfi research who also make hexaphonic pickups. They have a plugin called Ascend VPU. It is supposed to mimic virtual pickups. Maybe you could place 6 instances of those before your midi guitar plugin and check it out.
Superb. I think that even if Midi Guitar 3 will be able to "breakout" the individual strings from a regular pickup, hex pickups like the GK-3 still provide much better tracking for polyphonic pitch to midi.
Are you able to eq and filter the piezo-like tone of the raw GK strings in each Ableton track before they hit each instance of Midi Guitar? Would be great to give it a heavily filtered sound to improve the tracking even more.
Do you find that the latency is identical between GP-10 to Midi Guitar and regular pickup to Midi Guitar? I suppose there shouldn't be given that both methods just convert an analog input to digital
Hi, and thanks for dropping by. In my experience, the GK-3/GP-10 setup did not provide faster tracking than a standard PU to MIDI Guitar 2. But that is to be expected. Latency will be approximately similar, whether you use a single input with one magnetic pickup to one instance of MG2, or six inputs with six instances of MG2 if your computer is fast enough. There is nothing inherently better in the GK3 signal, rather the opposite actually. Remember, I am not using any of the GP-10 MIDI conversions. Filtering the input might help with some things. I don't know. I never did in these tests. But I have tested the next version (MG3) and my conclusion is that the tracking is better than any other setup I have tried, seen, or even heard. The ONLY thing a hex pickup is better at, at this point, is the per-string separation of audio, facilitating stuff like playing an instrument on one string and another on the next. If you want to hear what the testing of MG3 sounds like; I have these MPE series videos recently uploaded. For a place to start: czcams.com/video/kC1LFhFCZXE/video.html
@@lofileif Yep that makes sense. I also really hope they can make a new Midi Bass 2 plugin that can track a low B/A string of a 5 string bass
There should be a new version of MIDI Bass, but as I haven’t seen it yet I can’t say very much, but I hope it will be as great as MG3 will be! 👍
Hello friend, I've got boss sy 1000 & the guitar with gk-3 pickup, it's itself acts great, but, when I try use this one with vst's in Logic - strange thing happend; vsti and the guitar are slightly not in tune (!) and during playing minor accord, sometimes it sounds as major! And some sounds do not match I play. Meanwhile Midi guitar 2 works almost great with the same vsti's. What's wrong? Any ideas? Thanks in advance.
Hi Dave! I don't have the SY 1000 myself, so I can't really speak of its MIDI out capabilities. But if it is anything like the rest of the Roland pedals' MIDI out, you are probably better off using MIDI Guitar 2 to play VSTi:s in any DAW. I never compare (or even discuss actually) the GP-10:s own internal MIDI out for that reason. But if you are interested in getting the most out of your SY 1000, I would go to the VGuitar forum (www.vguitarforums.com) and scroll down to the whole section on the SY 1000. There seems to be plenty already said, but otherwise, you can surely ask a question there. I am sure those guys can tell you a lot more than I can about this. Good luck,!
@@lofileif Thanks, good luck to you too
Hey, do you think it's better to invest in a hexaphonic setup or to wait for MG3? My main issue is the notes spazzing out when playing big chord voicings
I think you should wait! You can always invest in a hex setup later if you are not happy with what you get from MG3. But my guess is you will be though! 😀🤝
@@lofileif thanks :)
This setup would be great for transcribing also I imagine.
Well, I haven’t found any setup that is great for transcribing, to be honest. Still too much cleaning up for my taste. But that is of course a matter of how picky you are. It is always worth trying, if you are interested! 😀👍
Have you maybe tried Graphtech ghost system? it has midi pickup and piezo pickup inside of string nuts in the bridge, for instance their Graphtech LB63 Floyd Rose style drop in replacement is outstanding, and cause its closest to the string, (actually touching the strings and picking its vibrations) cmbined with axon ax50 or Roland Gi20 via usb midi it has the lowest latency compared to all other solutions ive tested
I do have the graphtech ghostsystem. It is installed on my MOOG guitar, so it don’t really get as much attention as it should perhaps. But the problem I have there is that the system is so sensitive and that is is a trem, so you can’t barely touch it before you get those artefacts from the background noise. But I’ll try it again sometime soon, to not miss out on a good thing, perhaps.
@@lofileifhello - have you investigated this more? i’ve been looking for feedback on a setup using the ghost system and your comment is a bit alarming as it does not sound good
@@nathanmachine- Hey man! My personal experience with the ghost system setup has not been favorable for MIDI guitar work as It transmits more low-end rumble and noise than perhaps a hex pickup does. I intend on doing a video on different ways of sustaining notes (eBow, Sustainiac, Moog guitar) and I will probably showcase this particular issue there, so if you like you can always wait for that. Otherwise, I would advise against it as an option for driving at least anything Roland, before having tested it yourself (You are asking for my opinion)
@@lofileif Thanks for the response. I look forward to that video and appreciate the advice. Even though this is a basic technique, I wonder, if low end rumble and noise are the issues, can simple high passing, or multiband gating, once set up correctly, eliminate that problem and then allow for a super responsive platform better even than the GK3? FYI my application would be into a daw and then into MG2/3 (you mentioned advising against it as an option for driving but I didn't understand the end of that sentence "anything Roland") - i have not tested a ghost bridge at all it's just something that on paper seems to me should be somewhat superior to an external midi pickup. Lastly, maybe the ghost bridge would work well in instances where it was not also the tailpiece (for example in a strat setup the bridge is the tailpiece also where the strings stop but say in a setup where the bridge continues on to say a bigsby trem or even just a V stop tailpiece) - so in the former example there may be worse noise issues related to sympathetic vibrations and very high harmonics, but in the latter example where the ghost pickup is (in the bridge) might be further removed from similar noises (and might be able to be physically stopped with a bridge wrap))
@@nathanmachine- Well I used a designated FilterBuffer myself to no avail: czcams.com/video/iwCDIrV3sk4/video.htmlsi=5671exgQ2S5iFVjR
I did not help me with the ghost system noise in the end. But this could be a thousand things, the way my guitar is constructed. The MOOG has so much electronics inside of it. and it might help aggravate the problem. If you feel up to the challenge, go ahead and try. We are doing these journeys alone, and I would love it if you came up with a successful result here. If you do, be sure to let me know what you found out. Want to know more about that filter thing ? www.joness.com/gr300/Filter-Buffer.htm
You are talking about MIDI Guitar 3, but that is still not out right?
Is this still the set up you are using in all your recent video's?
Thanks
MG3 is still a work in progress (and not released yet), and I am testing MPE synths with it right now, sharing some of the findings in my recent videos. So I am NOT using this GP-10 setup there, but instead the development version of the MIDI Guitar 3 software n those videos. I hope I have not missed enclosing that information either in the videos themselves or in the video description?
@@lofileif Dont worry about it. I am just browsing through your video's to see if MDIguitar 2 is something for me. I have the trial version, my sound card is the UAD Apollo Twin. I tried it with a virtual pre amp in the signal (virtual in my Apollo, so before it enters the audio track in my DAW(where MIDI Guitar is installed on as an insert). I got a lot of ghost notes, when very softly brushing the strings.
So I'll try it with the pre amp out.....?
Is there a video out that shows the best set-up?
Should i get all the gear that you use in this video to make it all work properly? If so, arent we then spending just as much as when we were buying the roland setup (GK-3 and GR-55S)?
First, the video:
czcams.com/video/hHY9CysF4Dc/video.html
Second. Don't buy anything "to make it work". I have always used what I have at hand and purchased stuff when I have had some sort of deal or opportunity. If you are not halfway happy at least with the way MIDI Guitar work for you without all the GP-10s and stuff, my guess is you won't be after having purchased a lot of stuff either. Se to that you have a clean signal chain, nothing between the guitar and audio interface, except for a cable, that is. And start from there. It takes some getting used to. It is more a finger thing in the end than a settings or equipment thing. Good luck!
@@lofileif Thanks!🙏
Wow! How do I get my GP-10 to sound like that?
Well, I am not using any of the GP-10s internal sounds. Nore am I using its MIDI really. I am just using the GP-10 as a 6 channel audio interface, to send the information/sound from my guitars’ hexPU to my computer in the easiest way. Then I am using the Jamorigin MIDI Guitar2 software on each of those channels, doing the pitch to MIDI conversion in rhe computer instead. After that it is just a matter of what vst/au plugins I use when it comes to how it sounds. I think I mention what I use in the video.
I wanted to make my guitar a workhorse. I had purchased the Boss GS1 guitar. I had the Gk-3 installed so I can run my VG-99.
Yes? What has happened? I guess you can still make good use of all of that great gear?🧐
@@lofileif Indeed so. Well no I don't have buy different guitars for different styles of music. I do agree with you.
Great Video.
Why not use 6 synth plugins with midi input ? Why is the Jam Origin necessary ? I just want to understand why the Jam Origin is needed at all. Thanks
Because the Roland MIDI output isn’t MPE? You can’t get polyphonic bends from a GP-10. And the Roland MIDI is also not especially good to begin with. Those were my reasons, but for anyone not interested in polyphonic bends, I guess the Roland units are fine. But this setup just became obsolete now that JamOrigin started testing MIDI Guitar 3, with MPE built into it. czcams.com/video/SX0jdGMSGcY/video.htmlsi=Ad6_T9rGVPPHTku3
@@lofileifThank you for the response. Your videos are the only sensible solutions currently and really great work.
I tried everything in the past except the GP10 as you use it. I bought a GP-10 to try your recommendations.
Your videos solves a lot but creates more questions.
1) You say that MG3 will make your previous setup obsolete. Does that mean GP-10 will be dropped etc ? Is MG3 really that good to get rid of the b2nd issues and miss-triggers and can compete with six individual midi channels? I doubt it. I watched your video you listed above, but only the fretless demo gave me some positive info about what it is capable of. Otherwise, too many notes played to figure out what was solved in MG3 over MG2. That video also seemingly dont address the b2nd issue.
2) I clearly saw you using bends with GP-10 setup in earlier videos, so I dont understand your comment in the answer above.
3) How does MG2 work with the midi channels of GP-10 as a vst in a daw. I thought MG2 converts audio to Midi, but GP-10 already provides midi to the daw.
4) What latency does your Daw work at. I am getting 1.5ms latency using Mixbus and Linux without x-runs. I am if I may say, an expert with Unix'es so I can really fine tune latencies in Linux as it is open source. I have no detectable latencies and can monitor realtime with Audio. I am not sure what latency the GP-10 introduces. Did you maybe measure the GP10 Midi latencies.
Thanks
Yes, the GP-10 isn't as interesting anymore as the primary solution to playing polyphonic bends. But you shouldn't feel unhappy having one. MG3 is most likely going to try to incorporate a Hex input solution as well, which means that any benefits you have from the MG3 setup itself, will just be slightly enhanced. You have access to per string assigning and some other benefits too probably. So do not sell anything, would be my advise. The standard way of using MG3 with just an audio input is going to be my favorite however, because I hate the 13 pin-cable prison. I love to set up wirelessly.
The videos were meant as s teaser, to say "MG3 is finally on its way" and are snapshots from the trying out process. A LOT of questions has always been raised about tracking speed and playability, and perhaps that reflects in there. There are other videos showing other aspects, but more than that, JamOrigin have demos of their software. That is what should be the true arbiter for anyone interested. Test it and see if you like it. Don't buy it if you don't.
2) I am using bends, but I am NOT using Rolands MIDI out. I am using the GP-10 as a glorified audio interface. So any polyphonic bends I can achieve it solely thanks to setting up with & channels of audio with 6 instances of MG2 in monophonic tracking mode.
3) It is not MIDI channels, it is Audio: czcams.com/video/mSzFVQ5F0Eo/video.html
4) I don't have any such documented measurement. But I know it is a hot topic, so I am sure you'll find those on www.vguitarforums.com
@@lofileif Thank you very much for the kind reply. I read the GP-10 manual, but somehow wrongly deduced it makes midi ports available through usb. Since it is audio, it all makes sense. No sweat about GP-10, things change and better options comes up, not your fault I bought it. I have one other different use for it so it is not a waste.
So if I understand right, the GP-10 just forwards the analog output of each GK3 pickup via USB. Is it just a straight A/D conversion in the GP10, meaning no shaping or such done with the sound ?
That should be my last question. I know exactly what to do now.
Your videos were a great help giving an alternative to my Axon-100 and the dreaded Fishman Triple Play wireless system which has horrible latency compared to the Axon. The Fishman Triple Play is probably the worst midi gear I bought, and I play midi for almost 2 decades now. The added Latency to accommodate the wireless conversion is just a huge step backward. I much rather stick to cable after that experience.
You solved two of the three nagging midi issues, namely b2nd and 6 individual strings. Latency is the only remaining problem to address. But I am really good at reducing latency to undetectable levels, so that I can address myself.
I dont bend with midi, so I left that out.
@pensive_ Sure, I use the GP-10 as a breakout box for the HexPU six audio signals. There is no intended shaping, but there is indeed a flattening of dynamics, so there is stuff happening that I haven’t been able to come to grips with. But you are right, it SHOULD be a straight A/D conversion we are talking about.
But I would ask you to try the new MG3 software before settling on anything else. Although I am not going say it will solve any and all issues you ever had with MIDI Guitar, I really believe it is by far the best solution yet! 😀👍
thanx!
Thank YOU! 🙏
Your dynamics can be down because of phase of audio signal. The out of phase can make it quiet . Its when signal has same notes and especially same sound. Harmonics also can be decreased ... ???
Hi Lukasz! I see how phase cancellation could be a problem for the case when I use six instances of MIDI Guitar with the "same" instrument loaded inside them and play. Anything going to the mix in that case would absolutely be at risk of such phase issues, but it is not so much a problem for that kind of setup. It is when I use six channels of audio to create six MIDI streams to go into one software instrument on another track, where I get into trouble. It could be that the MIDI merge process is the problem. I don't see how this can be corrected by phase correction? But I can be completely wrong. If you have a clear idea of a better setup, nobody would be happier to try it out than me. 😀👍
@@lofileif I dont know, but to be sure You can record . Change to audio file. Than move few milieconds maybe there will be the difference..? Anyway I Love What You done here... just audio phase comes to my head ... ✌️👍🏼
@@ukaszkrawczyk732 Thanks man! Yeah, of course I can record and get a decent result overall. But these things are intended also as live instrument setups, and that’s where I get into trouble. I thank you for the suggestion though. Perhaps there is something I can use with the 6xaudiochannel to mix setup there. All suggestions like that are most welcome.🙏 😀
did the midi guit 3 version fix these issues? the minor 2nd ect
The MIDI Guitar 3 is still under development. The ambition is to have these issues fixed!
@@lofileif good on them
@@lofileif sidenote: fishman connect has the hex pickup too for 200 usd but you could use ableton midi pitch gates to separate each string into different tracks in midi. it may preserve dynamics more too as well as being more affordable.
How does the fishman concept differ from the Roland Hex PU:s? If can do that with a better result for Fishman PUs, why would I not use it for the Roland Stuff as well? And how does Abelton separate strings based on pitch info?
Do you have any artists (like yourself) that use these type tool to perform? I also want to say that your solo work when you have the midi guitar also triggering jazzy drums as you play if EPIC.
Thanks man! I actually don't know any such artists, except for the genius @PaulBielatowicz
He has done so much for the MIDI Guitar 2 software to be accepted as a working tool , also perfoming with it on stage. Have a look here czcams.com/video/VhSYE_51vBo/video.htmlsi=epD-3AZDYc-i0n4N
6 instances? Holy shit! How much RAM are you working with?
No crazy amounts! 32 GB😀
Is there a way to do this live but with no laptop/DAW?
Not that I know of. I don't even know what that would look like? Are you thinking of using only your Synth's sounds? You won't get that kind of realism and control with any MIDI pickup system directly to synths I think. But MIDI Guitar 3 is being developed as we speak,. And as it supports MPE there is less (no) need for this pretty cumbersome setup, unless you are looking for the string split function specifically!
I just want to play along with my tracks live and switch from real nylon stress to synth per song but dont want to carry laptop around plus mine is kind of slow THANKS@@lofileif
Yeah! And you are playing your tracks from what?
iPad into a mini PA @@lofileif
Camelot Pro with MIDI guitar 2 - an outdoors iPad wireless setup test (iOS)
czcams.com/video/_PUpkHkHotY/video.html
How can you use this device with newer equipment? It uses a usb-A which doesn't plug into todays equipment. I guess I have to use Boss Tone Studio so I bought a mid 2010 mac pro with USB-A ports. Well,, you cant upgrade it to software that is compatible with with tone Studio. I spent a lot of money only to have useless stuff. All I really wanted was the alternative tuning capability. Stuck in Techy spincycle. I plugged my Godin Acs Slim into it using the 14 pin cable and all I got was some really crazy sounds that I can't imagine anyone using it. It's like trying to do knitting while wearing boxing gloves. I guess I need a GP-10 book for dummies.
Hey! I don't see how the usb-A connector is a problem really. There are of course USB-A to USB-C cables and you can always use a hub or whatever. I don't remember ever using the Boss Tone Studio for this setup, but there was some considerable time before Roland came up with the new compatible GP-10 driver. And that is probably the main argument against investing in hardware like this. To be reliant upon the goodwill or benevolence of the company making it to keep supporting it beyond the point in time where there is no monetary interests anymore. They might rather see you buy a new piece of hardware. As I find this is not in my best interest I now days advocate for the use of some software solution instead. but to each his own. As far as I know there are three ways to go if you are looking for this hex PU to 6channels alternatives to work. GP-10, Sy -1000 (I think also has this 6 channels of audio over USB) , or using a Breakout cable like this: www.separate-strings.co.uk/breakout%20cables%20and%20more.html
Depending on the scope of your interest for retuning, I am not sure I would even recommend taking this route. With the next generation of MIDI Guitar (3) you retune your guitar if you like but you could also use external software like OddSound or Infinitone if you like.
hello .. beautiful demo .. my question ; can I get the sounds of guitars, e.g. classical, acoustic, jazz on the Boss GP-10 without using the 13-pin cable (without GK-3) but only with a jack-jack cable?
Hi and thanks! Well, I can’t say I totally understand what you are looking for here? If you want the modeled sounds from the GP-10 itself, you use the 13 pin cable. If you just want some effects I guess you can use a standard guitar cable. But you wouldn’t be using the GP10 to its full potential that way in my humble opinion.
I waiting for MIDI Guitar 3 ....
That looks like a Parker.
3:30 well there you go. Fun fact: I used to live a few blocks away from the guy who makes sustainiacs.
Yeah? Another fun fact: The sustainiac was installed by Anders Thidell (inventor of the True Temperament squiggly frets) who was my guitar tech at the time. I lived just a few blocks away from his (then) luthier shop. He unfortunately passed away way too early though. A marvelous tech and a great friend! 👍
why run the guitar with hexaphonic pu thrue the midi 2 programm ? doesnt the guitar itself have a 13pin midi out ?
Sure it does! But I am not using the GP-10 MIDI because the Roland MIDI conversion alternative is inferior to that of MIDI Guitar 2, for the stuff I am doing. 👍