Devil May Cry - Style Switching Was Never Bad
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- čas přidán 28. 07. 2024
- My thoughts and rambles about style switching and why the mechanic itself worked well and what were the real problems behind it.
DMC5 Mods: SSSiyan Trainer Mod
www.nexusmods.com/devilmaycry...
DMC4 Mods: github.com/muhopensores/dmc4_...
Songs:
Final Fantasy X - Besaid
DMC4 - Frozen Frog
Tekken 6 - Manji Valley
Sonic Robo Blast 2 - Techno Hill Zone, Act 2
Shadow the Hedghog - Cosmic Fall
Marvel vs Capcom 2 - Swamp Theme
Sonic Unleashed - Adabat Jungle Joyride Night - Hry
Thank you for all of the support everyone.
I want to reevaluate my points on the weapon wheel segment. I feel I was too harsh and dismissive in regards to the mechanic so expect a separate short video where I go over it again.
For those of you unaware: Dante in DMC5 has around 150 completely separate moves that ALL can be accessed at any moment thanks to the his Style Switching and weapon switching mechanic.
Dfook that's amazing I'm curious about how much Dante has in DMC3 though that game has a lot of potential when in freestyle.
*and pro players use at least 70% of said moves*
What the shit that's 105 moves
@cobaltordinaire5219 so true. I consider myself a dante pro, at least comparatively to what I've seen on youtube, and I can confirm lol. I know all of his moves andI have used all of his moves, but never in a single session. I'll play for whole month and be like, "oh yeah I forget to use that anymore." Lmfao.
@@silentsmokeNINhow, i use just 20/30 or 40 Dante moves lol
I never knew this was even an issue, I was under the impression that the whole point of style switching was to give you all the tools you need at any moment. It's way too fun and unique of a mechanic and shouldn't be removed. That being said, you brought up a good point with dmc4 that I never noticed before where most of your key moves are on the style button.
same here, people just love complaining that they can't essentially sleep with a sword and wake up a samurai lol
These people probably would love if DMC dropped the lock-on+directional controls for dial-a-combos. They would have all their moves accessible on just the melee button, even if to get the desired move they want, they'd have to input a 4~5 button combination.
just people complaing they cant pull off those donguri moves as they please
@@theysaidimasian9766 thats stupid. that man has like over 2000 hours on the game. of course he has mastered the skill of style switching
I never would’ve thought this was such a talking point till now. I always saw switching as it’s own art form with how a lot of players use it. And having tried a lot of stuff myself, it’s a lot of fun~
Yeah I thought everyone loved it. I think they have to be trolling
its not..only people who complain are the band wagon dudes. I can just make DMC 5 Dante into DMC3 Dante and go with my day. Those dudes complain for the sake of it
@@user-de8bc2rr6m so they’re bitches and incels. Got it
Style-switching just might be my favorite gameplay mechanic in any game ever.
I'm a huge fan of customization in video games. That's why I loved styles when Dante was able to customize his playstyle back in DMC3, but part of me has always wanted the ability to freely switch between them at any time. I skipped DMC4 as I only had a PC and PS2 at the time, so it wasn't until DMC5 that I was able to experience style-switching. Man, did it not disappoint.
What I love about it the most is the amount of gameplay variety that it offers on-the-fly. Most games with a customization aspect require tedious menu navigation before you can change your playstyle. Style-switching allows one to play to their strengths and overcome weaknesses without breaking the flow of the game. The individual styles already offer great utility on their own, but being able to switch between them at any time increases that potential exponentially. It makes Dante extremely powerful and versatile without resorting to simple stat boosts. Combine that with an arsenal of destruction, and you've got the most overpowered Swiss Army knife ever.
DMC4 is on PC, though. Hell, special edition's only actually new content were the new characters, everything else were features that already existed exclusively on PC in the original.
@@Mister_Gency Let me rephrase. At the time, I had a very weak PC that barely ran any games. It wasn't until 2017 that I could afford a new PC, and DMC4 wasn't at the top of my list back then.
@@Acyris I could run DMC 4 on my shitty laptop from 2007, how can a PC not do it for you?
@@morgannyan2738 I don't remember specifics, but the bottom line is I didn't go out of my way just to play DMC4 at the time.
i liked lighting in dissidia nt because she reminded me of Dante how she can switch between magic and melee. Too bad there was barely any single player content and definitely not offline vs mode.
New people yell the loudest, like you said, most people hop into these games thinking that should be able to pull off donguri combos without any prior training, it can take years of playthroughs in order to even get a feel with certain characters, especially Dante, due to his insane kit which is even further expanded in 5. Once you get good at style switching mid combo, you still have to option select what you'd want to do next.
I've only master Rebellion and Ivory & Ebony in DMC5 with Style Switching.
Vergil and Nero on the hand... Are much easier to master in hind sight.
V?... ... ... It feels random sometimes, even though it isn't. Since it's based on the positioning of his summons.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 Huh I can't hear you over -AWAKEN THE NIGHTMARE- *SSSSSS* RANK the sound of my V mastery!!
I've been playing since dmc1 and style switch is very uncomfortable to me. Maybe bc I play on Xbox. Idk if a ps4 pad would make it better
i love style switching and wish dmc3 switch would have been released on ps4 from the jump. however 1 thing dmc3 and 4 were missing was the void from dmc5. that limited the room for practice in previous games especially since each game has different weapons.
@@EBKDanteMustDie
DMC3 originally was supposed to have Style Switching but the PlayStation hardware at the time couldn't handle it.
As a relatively new DMC player, I never would've thought that people would find a way to criticize style switching. I remember how insane it felt to play DMC4 Dante and realize I can use any style at any time, that blew my mind
When I finally got to Dante in my first and only DMC game (DMC5) I thought that style switching was the coolest but the most daunting thing. Yet, I was excited to spend hours in the void getting slowly better and opening up new possibilities through nothing but my skill alone. It's truly a feeling I may never forget.
Nothing is perfect, maybe play the other games to find out why people criticize style switching.
@@morgannyan2738
Not really...
DMC1 had Menu Swapping.
DMC2 had none of weapon swapping beyond Alternate Weapons.
DMC3 was limited by the hardware at the time, when it originally was supposed to have Style Switching.
DMC4, DmC, and DMC5 are the full fledged ideas about Style Switching.
In the end, players are complaining over nothing. They should play Nero instead. He's a more traditional action character.
It's because the fans can never be satisfied with anything
@@morgannyan2738 No. I've played the other games and I still enjoy being able to switch styles on-the-fly
It's weird how accessibility and optimization is a hot topic for the DMC community given how open-ended the base game asks its player base to be. On top of what the game deems as successfully understanding the mechanics, like how orb count plays a role in how well you rank or how different enemies can weigh and thus be juggled.
I never knew this was such a big issue.
This video blew me away. It’s all factual. I want to say I was one of those people that never knew anything about the mechanics of DMC & how complex it is. Chasertech educated me when I tried arguing a point that had no weight to it.
He is one of many amazing combo artists out there that can teach you so much.
You know during DMC5's reveal and release aside from all the stupid stuff you did you never gave me credit for all the DMC5 NYCC 2018 stuff you reuploaded as well right:
czcams.com/video/mqUPZCTxwvY/video.html
It was never your "game skill" we complained about, it was your character and refusal to own up to stuff. Please keep continuing to be better!
@@Revolthell I will gladly give you credit buddy!
@@Revolthell your channel name is in the description & pinned comment on the video. Let me know if there are any other videos that you’d like me to give you credit on.
I feel like the combo mad videos made by the community over the years has given a good chunk of series newcomers an unrealistic expectation of these games. These games have a lot of systems to master and if you're gonna become a master, you have to put in the time to figure out how these games click. Just jumping in expecting to get those insane triple S combos all the time is just setting yourself up for failure, just progressing at your own pace is all that should really be needed. Style switching is just another system that needs to be taken into account for 4, 5, and the switch port of 3
I 100% agree with this.
People really expect to learn combos all willy nilly when it takes time to do so. Lmao I wish people learned more on taking their time with getting better at these games tbh.
@@ChaserTech Because all of the people complaining about this wants the game to hold their hand while in reality games like DMC require some skill to be effective. There are just some games where you need use your brain to play, the game doesn’t need to change it’s identity to accommodate the player the player need to find a game that suits their own needs. Devil may cry is basically an action game with fighting game inputs the combat is meant to be stylish and Dante is the poster boy of the franchise his style system sums up the gameplay also the players complaining want all of Dante’s moves to be with Dante instead of his styles the flaw with that solution is that’s the thing that they’re whining about they’re mad that Dante is too hard but if you take his styles away then you would have to memorize all the button combinations to do each move his styles make it easier to remember.
The Combo Mad video's often have rebinded inputs from their styles, to put less used things like DT/SDT on the D-Pad, and they practice/plan them out for hours/days, so yeah, its 'very' unrealistic for regular/new players to try and replicate them.
Fantastic video chaser love to see this kind of content for dmc
Eyy didn't expect to see you here
Had no idea this was a topic even up for debate in the fanbase. The amount of variables you have through style switching and all of the different devil arms is what makes Dante in 4, 5, and modded 3 such an engaging character to control and mess around with. Reaching mastery or even basic competence of that depth is really satisfying. Why would anyone wanna do away with it?
I don't think that those people are considered "fans". I mean, if you really like DMC games, style switching wouldn't be a problem to talk about 🤷🏻♂️.
Remember that DMC3 was supposed to have Style Switching if the hardware at the time, wasn't limited.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 the switch port has style switching until today I didn't know style switching was a issue I thought it was awsome 4 was my first game but j mostly played swordsman it took me 100 years tk beat dmc3 cuz I only stuck with one style j enyoed jt nonetheless in 5 I got combo heavy and and spent hundreds of hours to just get good with dante I'm only 15 so take that as u will but the dmc series has been one of favorites and unpopular oppninon 2 isn't that bad actually
Style Switching is in the Nintendo Switch port too
@@OniLink977
DMC3 Style Switching is Switch exclusive. You'll need a Mod for the other platforms/PC.
anyone who asks for dante to have all his moves available without style switching simply isn't grasping the sheer overwhelming amout of inputs dante has, clear and cut
Late comment, but some poeple are really asking for that? thats ridiculous, DMC would turn into piano simulator
I suck at DMC combos, but it feels good to learn even one combo that resembles a pro move. People just like to be rewarded without any hard work.
That's the jist of it... They don't deserve what they don't even try to do. A hollow victory from a worthless effort.
The ironic thing is... This isn't even about Accessibility, so that excuse is dead in the water.
But I suppose no effort is effort to those who fail and cannot stand back up...
Personally, I find switching weapons (or styles) as central mechanics to games really cool cause of the rhythm element they introduce to a game. At least that’s how I view their implementation. Somewhat related to DMC, DOOM ETERNAL and ULTRAKILL reward you for switching weapons often, with the former even requiring you to do so. I can see how „being forced“ to switch could be unsatisfactory to some, but personally I feel it adds another layer of depth to a game that gets you into a flow state quicker.
Always remember... You can beat DMC5 with just Stinger on Dante's part.
The complaints have no merit since it's a failure to understand these kinds of games. Like those who think From Soft should add an easy mode to Elden Ring.
As a relatively new DMC fan, as in, just played DMC5 for the first time this month. Dante's style switching is fucken sick, I wish more games would do it.
You could only so so much moves with a single attack button, adding another + the directional pad is a smart move.
My only problem with style switching is the under-utilisation of it.
Imagine a weapon who's properties changed when you switched styles.
Like a sword that turns into a great sword when you use Royalguard and has attacks that use the gauge, and turns into a dagger when you use trickster, letting you perform speedy attacks to combo with the style's trick action, or turns into a spear with gunslinger, giving you longer ranged stabs.
The summon swords in 5 are my favorite addition simply because of their properties change with your selected style, giving the style keys more use than just changing what your trick action does.
I honestly don't get it when people say that DMC doesn't have a dedicated dodge button when jumping has invincibility frames, and you can jump as often as you like whenever you like.
It takes a hell of a long time to get used to, but once you do, you'll be styling without trying. And that's.. Kind of the point. These games aren't meant to be easily accessible to newcomers. It's meant to be difficult to learn. That's why pulling off sick combos feels so rewarding. Because it feels like you've earned it through learning the combat. That's why it's one of my favourite games.
I would say these games actually are meant to be easily accessible to newcomers, but its more of an "easy to learn, hard to master" situation. After all you don't need to be a style-switching pro to beat the game even on higher difficulties, you'll just not be getting the the best scores.
@@vadandrumist1670 Nah. I would definitely say that for the majority it's very hard to learn. There are always exceptions, but for the most part the unique movement and combo schemes of DMC have always been difficult to get used to. You can always see that when watching new players pick it up for the first time. Jumping around missing combos and not knowing how to start or end combos. That's how basically everyone starts out.
@@kin4386 I think we're just operating under different standards of "learned" then, since what you said can apply to players that beat the game on normal and higher difficulties while still making those mistakes. Even if they're completely incapable of switching styles/weapons mid-combo they can still have learned the basics. You don't even need to style or weapon switch at all, and it's that which makes DMC easily accessible. The skill ceiling for making the most of the game's functions is high, but the skill floor for just being able to play the game is low.
@@vadandrumist1670 Not really. These games have always been difficult in terms of actually defeating tough enemies for newcomers too. Especially 3.
@@kin4386 Difficult, yes, but nothing newcomers can't adapt to, and once again not difficult to the point where you need to be particularly skilled in many of the game's functions to surpass. Ironic that you bring up DMC3 though as that game didn't even have style switching originally.
DMC is incredible because of the freedom and flexibility of the characters. I couldn't possibly imagine thinking to myself that the game should have LESS options. If you want an action game with a limited moveset there are plenty of games out there.
Massive clickbait, I didn't see Todd Howard once in this video
I'm new to the dmc series and I really enjoy style switching in 5, it's so unbelievably fun and even though I'm not that good, learning style switching to a certain degree made Dante my favorite character to play as especially when I'm in the flow zone
Saw you talking about this over Twitter. So glad you spoke up over it
as someone who started with 5 i legit fell in love with dantes gameplay. i adore how nice it feels and i did some pretty slick combos for a beginner. i consider dantes moveset as one of my favorite gameplays in videogames just because of how fun it is
That was highly informative. Thank you for taking the time to make this video!
I've been a massive fan of DMC series since 1 on PS2. I never heard of these style complaints lmao. Silly Billy, they just need some motivation to learn there's nothing wrong with being stylish 😎
Because the so-called "fans" will always find something to rant about
This video fucking said everything I've also ever wanted to say, and the way you articulate all the comparisions and seeing the footage actually together weaves such a strong argument.
Personally I do feel if some people really benefitted from no Dpad use they can use custom setup not only on Steam but in later PS5 and Xbox One consoles now.
Hope this great video just a first in the way to come!
To me style switching is what makes Dante so fun and yes even if he didn’t have style switching he would still be fun but it adds so many different ways to play Dante and you feel so free while you are playing as him and me being a console player I hope that they add breaker switching to Nero into the next DMC game if it ever happens because he gets so repetitive at points
Count me as one of several people who didn't even know this was a controversy. After DMC3, I was happy that Dante had access to all of his styles and, though difficult to learn, thought nothing of it otherwise. I didn't know there were people actually complaining about this, though perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
Incredible video Chaser!
This video was a treat and I agree 100%.
The problem is not style switching but the idea that you need to actively switch styles. This was a perception that was somewhat reinforced by DMC4, but couldn't be less the case with DMC5. There's no situation in DMC5 where you're going to be required to be in one style, just some in which one style is going to be better or worse, and you'll have to adjust if you want to use it.
That last part isn't an afterthought though, it's the whole point of styles. They're extra abilities that let you play in a specific way you enjoy; ergo "styles." That's why they don't have their own separate button and why no character besides Dante has them. People get confused because they're very unique functionally, but when you look at things more deeply, that's not so much the case. Neither the styles nor the weapons are designed randomly and they all consider what all of them can do so that you'll never be truly out of options with any given loadout.
Combining styles in quick and complex ways is a result of a player's prowess with Dante, but that doesn't mean it's the intended way to play the character. No two people play Dante (or any DMC character for that matter) in the same way, though we all abide by the same rules; and that's why we like this series, that's why even seeing inexperienced players can be engaging. Given that, it only follows that one could refuse to switch styles, or weapons, or only switch to certain things, and still be proficient with the character. And indeed playing that way may be more challenging or more interesting given the situation.
Lastly, I want to say that no control scheme or game is "perfect." Like any other human creation, they make concessions that are inherent to what they're trying to achieve. Sure, it'd be nice if I could swing a hammer with my mind, but I would likely need more effort to set that up than to just use my arm, so for the time being, hammers are going to keep having handles. If I occasionally hit my finger while trying to nail something, that won't mean hammers are poorly designed. Similarly, style switching works well given the game that it's in and what it's meant to do. Looking at things in a vacuum, there might be a control scheme that could allow you to do some things with less inputs, but it's hard to call it better simply because it would result in a completely different Dante.
And if you don't believe me, you should try checking out this one guy called Nero.
Seriously bro, these vids have been great. Keep on doin' what you're doin'.
And the YT shorts have been great, as well.
Looking farward to your possible next video taking about the weapons of DMC and possibly other action games.
It could be 10 minutes long, or and hour and a half, I'd still watch it. Haha
I know exactly what video you were talking about when sampling one of the proposed alternative layouts. I'm so glad you brought it up and brought up the same complaints that I had with it. Great video
Yeah it's strange how the person didn't realize how much they made weapons and guns more inconvenient to use due to moving them to the DPAD.
I felt like I had to claw at times. Even the entire control scheme feels really off imo.
@@ChaserTech Yeah I feel like it's way too common for people to overlook how important weapon switching is in favor of style switching. I think it's probably because style switching stands out to casual players when watching high level play since it's flashy and more noticeable, even if it's only one part of the equation
the thing about switching to dpad and joystick to access moves :
outside of movement and inputting command moves, you don't use the joystick very much.
let me give an example. your ground combo for melee weapons is mash the attack button or the sword masteer button. the entire time you're mashing/holding/delaying the attack button you can't do any movement, meaning you aren't using the joystick. this opens your thumb to A) use the joystick to input a command move (back-forward or 360) or B) hit a style switch.
in the case where you DID use your left thumb to input the command move, you generally have no left thumb options to go into directly after. you can't do hightime into stinger, you can't do stinger into hightime, you can't do stinger into normal combo. you need SOMETHING in between to link those moves together. it might be guns, it might be jump, you might be put into an aerial combo situation in which case you get access to jump cancel to give you your link.
all that to say, your left thumb is completely fucking free to swap styles, just stop gripping your controller like you're trying to squeeze style points out of a sponge.
for those saying you don't have immediate access to style moves when you have to style swap, you've literally not touched styles have you?
let's say you're in swordmaster and you want to royalguard something, how would you go about blocking that thing? if you chose stop what you're doing, swap to RG and then wait for the attack to come at you, how about we squish those commands together and cut out the waiting : hit RG style and the style button at the SAME time. i know, insane concept here, hitting two buttons at the same time instead of one after the other.
so pray tell, where in between mashing attack and hitting style PLUS style-button did we not have access to royal guard?
what about trickster? we want to trick up out of gunslinger. jesus christ did you just hit d-pad up while shooting then forward + style at the SAME time. isn't that fucking illegal or something?
what about prop shredder? i'm stuck in royal guard! oh my god he's hitting left on the dpad and style while not moving the joystick.
what if i want to royal release out of swordmaster : let's use the buffer system and hit back-forward > move our thumb all the way an inch to the left > hit d-pad down + style. oh my god royal release came out and half of the shit we did with our left thumb we did in swordmaster how could this even be possible my mind is expanding at a rate in which my health is in danger.
in short, it's a skill issue.
if you're constantly attacking, then you aren't using your left thumb for much movement, in fact your default movement in combat should be d-pad up > up+style or d-pad up+style, since if you are using your legs to move around you're not in a situation where you need to style switch.
if you want to complain about something, it's how the joystick for camera is on the same side as attacking. it's an important skill to put enemies you aren't hitting off screen by rotation the camera so they don't attack you (also accomplished by going up into the air).
(secretly a reason M+KBD is the best control scheme)
how about complaining about how swapping through weapons requires memorizing the order you yourself put the weapons in and mashing through that order with your gun/sword swap buttons (it's annoying but how about you start slow and use 2 weapons, and build up to 3 then 4).
Absolutely SSS video. I am glad that DMC 5 Dante feels like the best of 3 and 4. The game gives you the option to play however you'd like. On my first playthrough, I played it like DMC 3 to learn the systems and weapons. The next playthrough went more like DMC4, with me using everything at my disposal.
Once again, great video.
As a new player to the series, Style Switching is amazing imo, I didn't use it that much in dmc 3-4, but now that I'm going for all the achievements in DMC5 I've come to use style Switching quite a lot and I love it, it's dynamic and let you do more moves.
Great video.
I think the barrier to entry got lowered significantly in DMC5 (e.g. with Dante's Air Taunt) , which is honestly a great thing.
However in DMC4 it is completely understandable for a first time player to find so many tools of Dante locked behind styles to be extremely jarring. I did too!
I think they streamlined the weapons too much in the transition from 3 to 4, like you said, because they wanted to incentivise people to actual switch styles and not stick with just one they like, as many players did in DMC3 back then.
That however isn't a fault of the system, but of its implementation as you already stated.
Agreed with regards to rose taunt it's such an important tool that having it on a universal function makes life so much easier for people.
I think the other issue probably is that the first stage you play as Dante in DMC4 has the more annoying puzzles and mob enemies, making the adjustment extra jarring. I mean, even after playing DMC3 like crazy, the first stage of Dante felt very punishing haha
Definitely my experience in a sense. I was so used to just sticking to a style that when 4 dropped the "okay you got ALL THE STYLES NOW" when Dante came to play, shit was very jarring indeed!
My first ever DMC game was 5, so I do suppose that I have my biases when it comes to style switching. But now that I've played through all of them (minus 2), I still don't see why people disliked the system so much. It gives room for more flexible, streamlined moves that's hard to pull off, but extremely satisfying once you mastered it. I swear, man, people will somehow always find something to complain about
Great video man! Your arguments were solid and completely valid.
Me, a passerby who has only played ever played DMC4, casually, unaware this was a point contention:
Alright, you've convinced me.
Glad you made this video man.
i like style switching but one thing that felt pretty bad was how nerfed a lot of the style moves were in DMC4 to accomodate for it, it felt bad for casuals
Thank you! This voices all of my grievances with this argument.
How fascinating I always thought that the style switching was always amazing to do when 5 came out it just makes it even better
Ok I will completely agree that style switching and how they did the style switching is perfect, now for holding down buttons for styles I will admit I play d5nte with most of my styles on the triggers, like u said everyone is different I guess I just don't like having to switch styles with the d pad, in DmC I switch weapons with the d pad so it became second nature in dmc5 for dante, love the different outlooks and topics in this video, a really good way to give people knowledge and a lil insight to what controller set ups and options that r out there much love brotha 💙 LONG LIVE STYLE SWITCHING 😉
ignoring the fact that removing style switching would mean you’d literally need extra combo inputs to do the simplest thing on the planet…. its extremely efficient, and even tho i dont grind dmc and just play it casually id rather have style switching then needing to go into an inventory or go into a different screen, or need to use combo inputs like its a fighting game just to pull of a simple action in game
Dude, your videos are so amazing, the way that you talk about this is like doing Dante combos in high or mid levels but always SsStylish!!!
Hey guys?
If y'all are having trouble staying airborne, E&I have always been amazing tools for remaining skybound. Rainstorm in DMC 5 and, to some extent, 4, is our mightiest successor to Air Raid.
I know 4 has the flying missile battery on Pandora, but f*ck the flying missile battery.
Also, Cerberus' Aerial spin attack (lock on forward attack) is the stairway to heaven. Easiest JC in the series.
Balrogs aerial punch is also easy to JC and makes you look like a dbz character. You can even bounce between punches and kicks for increased style here
Regarding the topic of weapon wheel, I would not be against its implementation in the game ONLY IF it was something optional that you can turn on and off in the options menu. I feel that for newcomers of the series and players with disabilities who might find going through the entirety of Dante's arsenal just to select a single weapon it might seem as a hindrance and a detriment, but as far as advanced players are concerned, it is the most consistent way to play the game at the pace with usually engage with. So, I believe there's an argument for it being there, but NOT at the cost of being a feature you have to put up with and drag the pro players down.
Someone also mentioned the option of assigning/customizing different inputs to the skills you have, which I think could be a nice addition and wouldn't affect the way in how top players play. Any thoughts on that?
Full Controller/Key Board & Mouse customization is fine...
But sadly...
Players will still complain for their own incompetence...
Not everything has to be catered to the newcomer/disabled though. There are other games to play, don't stick to 1 and then complain.
Dmc 5 is my first dmc game I'm on my 3rd playthrough rn and I find style switching really fun even if I can't do all the cool stuff I see online. coming up with new stuff on my own with different weapons and changing styles mid combo really satisfying
The problem with styles in DMC3 is that only one style has a tool as basic and essential as 'the dodge move'. Experimenting with different styles was absolutely terrible because of it; the thing you have to give up is so baseline essential for gameplay, especially if you're doing something like, say, learning a new gameplay style. It's actually a big reason I liked DMC3 the least out of all the PS2 DMCs; it felt like it was actively depriving me of potential fun by giving me tools that I can't use without taking away something I need to even have a chance of surviving.
Style switching fixes that problem as much as it reasonably could while making sure the moveset isn't overly complex. I'm fine with it.
I really wish they kept the the wall run and surfing on the demons mechanic in the later games.
So you like DMC2 better than DMC3? or is it removed by default?
@@motivatedbyvergildantenero2315 you won't believe me, but I genuinely did prefer 2 to 3. (1 was better than both though.) I find comparing them kinda weird, though.
I'd describe 1 and 2 as 'doing their best at being a thing that isn't fully realized yet'. There just weren't really action games like that before, and they hadn't fully realized how much of that old Resident Evil skeleton should be shed yet. So it's kinda hard to dock them points for not being better than what they are, they were basically sailing uncharted seas. Hell, DMC2 started work before DMC1 was even finished, so a lot of its orphaned ideas were literally implemented blind; they didn't know what people liked about DMC yet. That nascent finding their way has an appeal of its own, there's some unrefined gems there; DMC1 basically feels like an early Resident Evil with action combat instead of survival horror elements, and I love it as that.
But DMC3 instead comes in at the point where the genre is starting to solidify, so its mistakes actually DO feel like they were within the devs' power to avoid. At that point not only were the previous DMCs in the wild, but imitators and competitors were, too; they should've been able to recognize things like 'the dodge move is pretty indispensible'.
Basically, I enjoy DMC1 and 2 for what they are, and what they are isn't quite a character action game yet. But DMC3 is undeniably a character action game... and it's pretty bad at it.
@@EinDose I disagree about DMC3 being a bad action game, but at the same time I respect your opinion no one should bash anyone for enjoying another game more than the other considering I can relate a bit since Dark Souls 2 is my favorite in the Dark Souls trilogy yet it's the most hated game in the fanbase of fromsoft.
I know a guy that dont have styles to bother people and just happens to be "The STORM THAT IS APROACHING"
I didn't knew that Style Switch mechanic was this kind of topic in community, I know it's hard to get used to changing styles while playing, and that people would prefer to only stay in one until they get used to, but saying "bad design" I think it's going far
Good video bro! I'm really glad you talk about this. Though I understand the frustration the new player has with the control scheme and combat design that it might be too hard,I sometimes wished the developer would lower the complexity down for a bit because I recently played a game that made me feel like I was playing DMC and it was Assault Spy. I think the control was simple to grasp and that it was possible to pull off some combos similar to DMC but easier (with some elements similar to Bayonetta and MGR, but more like DMC with some moves that look identical). If you don't count some glitches and minor issues such as lock-on and trick up-down mechanics or even the vast amounts of input because of the lack of weapons, I believe it is still the game with good control and combat design that I wish Capcom could implement.
But, in the end, it was just a choice for the player, and I don't see the issue with switching styles. You can play the game without changing your style and doing the claw at all, and I practiced it until I could do it freely, but the only disadvantage I see is that I have to do the claw grip and injure my own wrist because my thumb wasn't fast enough for guard fly, sky run, or even inertia rave lol.
Your argument was spot on. What you said complies with my thoughts. Also given examples are all true and I have experienced them.
perfect mechanic for a perfect franchise, i love you DMC
great video, i must say, i love playing Dante in DMC5 the most cause he has so many weapons available, and it is easier to play him and come up with combos than dmc4(much easier to stay in the air), in my opinion. in dmc4 im not a huge fan of his weapons. but also something to note, the Switch version of DMC3 has freestyle mode where you do have style switching and the ability to use every single weapon Dante obtains just like dmc5, and you can even bring up a weapon wheel! glad to see DMC content still being created.
my bad i didnt finish watching before i made the comment about DMC3 on switch LOL it can be fun tho
I'm kinda shocked that people ever actually thought it was bad, lol. It's such a fun and unique mechanic. I get that it can be overwhelming at first, but with enough practice, you can do a lot of cool shit!
The two main problems of style switching imo fall into these 2 categories
1) How accessible is it for new players?
2) How are they balanced in terms of between each other and against enemies?
So for that first question, I think DMC3 with style switching mod shows how the games should be balanced for Dante's styles. Where each style can be used by itself to 100% beat the game, you aren't even forced to swap styles and no enemy or boss in the game is biased against certain styles. Every part of the game was designed in that way, so when you add style switching on top of that, you don't feel like you're nerfing yourself, you just open up a huge amount of gameplay possibilities. DMC4 however, target nerfed all the styles to compensate for style switching being implemented. What this resulted in is a FORCED style switching for players, which makes the game not nearly as accessible to new players. New players should be allowed to stick to 1 style to effectively play the character, and then as they play and get used to it, expand their repertoire with new styles. The DEFAULT balance position should be 1 style, that prevents this problem.
Then for the second question, you can't let a certain style become more or less powerful than the others. Every style should be equally balanced when compared to each other with equal pros and cons. Royal guard has immense damage, power, and survivability with the trade off of requiring precise timing and close range. Gunslinger has long range moves with multiple enemy target abilities and charging guns and such with the trade off of doing lower damage to melee attacks. Swordmaster is the same just with vice versa power, more powerful melee with less powerful guns. Trickster keeps you at a basic moveset but allows you a lot of mobility and safe dodging. Each has pluses and negatives but none of them should be specifically better or worse than each other. This allows players to pick a style they like, focus on learning that style, and not feel like they're "nerfing" themselves because they chose a specific one.
The balance of this is very hard to do, but I think they did a fantastic job with it in DMC5 tbh. Every style feels great, they all fit their purpose, and none of them feel like a clear cut winner or loser. DMC4 however definitely showed this imbalance. Royal guard and Gunslinger were 100% less powerful than Swordmaster and Trickster. Royal guard felt unfinished with dreadnaught and chip damage on normal blocks and taking forever to charge the royal meter, and gunslinger moves either just did no damage or were very niche examples like Pandora's missile battery.
Nah
This analysis was absolutely incredible. Brilliantly executed. The part where you detail how heavily other games rely on the D-pad was something I hadn't put enough thought into. I haven't changed my mind about Style Switching, but now I can definitely approach the subject with a more open mind. After all, if you're not willing to try and disprove your own position, your argument is worthless. And that's actually the thing that impressed me about this video the most: You don't have a problem with seeing things from someone else's perspective. That's the kinda attitude that makes me say, "Hey. Pay attention to this guy. He's got something to say."
This video is Smokin' Sexy Style. All day. 🔥🔥🔥
Honestly the only issue I’ve ever had with style switching was the darkslayer select, I could never get used to that lmao
I'd always accidentally fat-finger into Darkslayer in DMC4, lol
@@Run-Riot i have a bad habit of tapping the style I want to use even if I already have it selected, so if I wanna start a combo with prop/shredder I’ll hit swordmaster instinctively and more often than not get Yamato instead. I was so happy to find that not to be the case in dmc5
Dmc 5 was my first entry to this series and when i got to play around as dante i admit i was a bit overwhelmed with style switching and sticked to either swordmastwr or gunslinger but after a few practice and unlocking all the styles can do i personally say that it's a awesome fun mechanic i still struggle and have a huge lag on my response time especially after switching but i still gotta admit that it was super fun messing around with it
I thought for sure when you said if you wanted something with a dedicated dodge button was to go play DMC2 lol.
Anyway great video that also summarized why I didn't like DMC4 Dante's combat as much, because it was that same annoying feeling when Cerberus/Nevan didn't have Air Hike in DMC3. Universal tools and moves in DMC5 was absolutely the best fix, and now it was all a matter of getting good and use to free form combat in DMC5
Style switch on the pad is the most convenient at the end of the day for me.
I'll customize all the attack and shoot buttons to the triggers and away from the face buttons though. Ever since playing dark souls/Bloodborne attacking with shoulder buttons just seems a lot more comfortable and easier imo
Very well presented argument. I agree, style switching presents the largest amount of possible inputs and gives more options for rebinding than button modifiers would allow. At the time I was a PC keyboard only player, style switching in DMC4 didn´t make sense to me at all, as I had all these rebindable keys available, why am I supposed to use 4 keys to change the function of a 5th key when it would make more sense to use the 4 keys for the 4 functions (and the 5th key for Yamato). But I guess capcom wanted a consistent control scheme across all platforms, so it makes sense to optimize for the most common denominator, i.e. controller. Great job pointing out how the weapons in DMC5 are designed closer to the DMC3 ones, so they offer a decent moveset without style actions and also work well along the style switching system. Maybe in the future, when controllers with buttons on the back become standard, we may see a different system, but for the time being, this seems to be the best we have.
I think both style choosing and style switch are really cool actually. On DMC3 you can't choose your style anywhere but it's fun to test which style fits best for each part of a stage, specially in DMD, while style switching let's you go insane with combos
in dmc3 you can switch your style anywhere but only on the switch version. I too have at times forgotten that version simply because the switch is such a hassle to play on and buy games for. the definitive edition of dmc3 should have been on ps4 from the jump. theres no way switch fans are actually able to appreciate dmc in any capacity unless they were dmc fans before that lmfao
@@EBKDanteMustDie
There’s mods for pc versions
Ever since the placement of thumb sticks on the front we've been limited by having to switch between the sticks and front buttons. I'm surprised that years after the PS2/Xbox the general masses are seeing the problem with this and releasing third party controllers with buttons on the bottom of the controller. I'm even more surprised that this isn't implemented in the newest first party PS5/Xbox Series X|S controllers. (besides the PS4 back button attachment, remember that?)
The first time I actually completely went through dmc3 I played the switch version with style switching and full weapon wheel on. Not gonna lie, I have no clue how people loved the game so much without it lol. Imma go through it again the original way, but man it's just crazy to think of how imma play without it. I guess I gotta learn jump cancels better now
loved the video.
3:43 this. This is the main thing about the DMC Games. People have an idea that the DMC games have a very steep learning curve and that getting to a "good" level takes years and years of effort.
I can't speak for everybody, but it was certainly the case for me. DMC meant being very fast and smooth with your actions and buttons. It's kinda like Instagram fitness posts; it's not the majority of people, but if that's all you see, you feel like that's the general baseline.
Either way, I started playing with the reboot, because it had simpler controls. I played that game, had a great time, and wanted some more DMC in my life. I took the plunge with DMC3, and after some time with the mainline games (DMC3 and DMC4), I understand that everybody doesn't _have_ to be an absolute combo demon. Everybody doesn't have to be a Jump Cancel master. It's just like any other game; if you're not a casual player, it's sufficient to have a good grip on your weapons and styles and being efficient with your tools. That is quite enough
Good work on this one. Style switching was always fun for me.
Fire video :D
Dante’s style switching in dmc 5 is the best ever. Idk how or why people get upset that they need to get upset about using the dpad to switch styles. Especially if there is an option to change settings. People could complain about style switching, but being able to style switch on the fly in combos is one of the coolest feelings to ever have and to end with a sin devil trigger finale. Pure awesome gameplay.
I really liked the style system as pc casual, for most of the playthrough it'd be hard enough to use well the base moveset, also way more fun focusing on switching weapons mid combo than styles.
Even in the Vergil fight, I started with trickster for the easy dodges and after some deaths switched to swordmaster and got gud at timing
Good video
Banger video
Did not think you would ever come back to talking about DMC related topics. Hell, I did not even know the community had issues and bad takes with style switching. Tbf, I "left" the community years back because all I found was the same 2 crappy memes, pointless drama from casual reddit players, or from "pros" getting into piss spats over who truly is skilled and godlike. But, on the topic of the video, it was very interesting to hear and even see what some people tried to do differently. Even though their intentions were misguided, made it worse, or simply wrong. Your explanation, and your own beliefs on what issues are actually there, for commands and inputs come off solid and reasonable enough to believe. Good shit, Chaser.
Oh nah I'm not done with DMC. I maybe finished with tutorials but there's tons I wanna talk about for DMC in general.
So if anyone can tell me how to fix this when i tried to use royal guard even full Devil trigger it switches to sword master kinda same for the other style to help is thank
Exellent video.
I feel as though a weapon wheel was an inevitable addition to the series. A lot of, if not most people, find selecting a weapon through a wheel more comfortable than rapidly cycling through weapons with a button. I've seen the lack of a weapon wheal being complained about as early as DMC4.
To be honest, I'd say having a weapon wheel is perfectly fine in concept. Seems like a lot of people were turned off of the idea after playing DMC3 Switch, and understandably so, but the issue there was the implimentation and not the mechanic itself. DMC3's version of the weapon wheel was really jank, but it can be improved upon in pretty obvious ways.
Either way, I'd say it's worth iterating on just so everyone can feel comfortable with the game.
I always think how people fall into the trap of how style switching is bad (even I thought reboot's more streamlined controls were better) because its complicated at face value but never realized that this is pretty much the most streamlined controls AND it gives the most options, all it takes is just some time to learn it and all it took me was playing Dante for around a week and I was already comfortable switching between his styles on the fly, and just like you said in 4 its like a trial by fire as players are handed all of his styles instantly and those inexperienced with DMCs combat will lack the flow necessary for seamless switching and out of that frustration they blame the game (not everyone but I definitely got frustrated with it)
In the end, style switching is pretty much like learning anything in DMC, and that is Patience and Practice makes perfect
They aren't streamlined at all. Holding one button to use a certain weapon SEEMS more streamlined, until you realize YOU STILL HAVE TO SWITCH WEAPONS ON THE DPAD SO THE AWKWARD CLAW GRIP DOESN'T GO AWAY. or else you can only use three of your weapons at a time
@@thatitalianlameguy2235 I consider it more streamlined because most of the time the access to those 3 weapons is enough and you will be mostly switching between aquila and osiris, also you dont need to claw in DmC as there is only one type of directional attack and its only for a stinger-like attack and most attacks lock on by themselves (you can also push the stick towards the enemy to assist the auto lock on though you dont need to do this when youre already mid-combo/switching weapons), so the awkward claw grip DOES go away
@@thatitalianlameguy2235
Not really... DmC is rather old fashion if you want to know how outdated It's design decision was. And it cuts your options by 2/3rds. Unlike DMC5 where your finger isn't stuck to R1 or L1 just to use a weapon.
Granted, DMC4 has an equal problems because counter clock wise cycling doesn't exist for Dante (if I remember). Unlike for Vergil in DMC4.
I personally feel like every style should *enhance* a type of gameplay, rather than forcing you to use a style if you want access to a meaningful moveset. Dmc5 does this well, because all the swordmaster moves feel supplemental rather than necessary. Gunslinger is the same to a lesser extent.
It's usually unskilled players who complain about style switching. People who understand the game's mechanics know that style switching is basically irreplaceable, unless you create a controller with 50 buttons that's easy to use.
Great video! I agree with everything you said. I think that Dante's style switching and control scheme as a whole is as good as it's going to get. It's not like it's that bad in the first place though but to get into it:
Weapon switching is on the bumpers because it allows you to switch while performing actions and moving. It's also easier to press the triggers repeatedly as opposed to the dpad to cycle more weapons. Style-switching is on the dpad because you don't switch styles as often as you do weapons and when you do switch styles, it only requires one press. I get why some people think Dante's style-switching should be streamlined because it is awkward at first and there's nothing like it. However, there really aren't any better alternative unless Dante's moveset is completely redesigned which is probably not going to happen. I strongly agree with having more inputs on the guns and melee weapons as well.
I know this video is about style-switching but I find switching between more than 2 weapons to be a bigger issue so forgive me for slightly changing the subject. It does tie into the "style-switching debate" which is really a "control scheme debate" at the end of the day.
The strength of the reboot's (DmC: Devil May Cry) control scheme is that it allows you to switch between 5 weapons within 1-2 button presses at most. Angel Mode (LT) and Demon Mode (RT) allow you to switch weapons just by holding down the triggers, letting go switches back to Rebellion and their secondary weapons can be switched by using the dpad which is similar to style switching in a way. The best thing about this is you can switch the secondary angel or demon weapon while performing other actions therefore allowing to instantly use that weapon when you go into either mode without having to cycle. For example, I'm using Rebellion and I want to switch to Aquilla which is the 2nd slot angel weapon. All I have to do is press left on the dpad to switch to the Aquilla and then hold LT to actually use it.
Compare that to the original DMC series where Dante can only cycle one weapon at a time. Every DMC where there are more than 2 weapons makes it hard to pull off specific weapon combos due to being limited to cycle weapons in a specific direction. For example, in DMC4 I could rarely pull off a (Gilgamesh) Killer Bee into a (Rebellion) Aerial Rave because I had to cycle 2 weapons within an extremely short time period. It's not an impossible thing to do but it is extremely difficult. The problem is sorta remedied in DMC5 because you can customize the order and amount of weapons you can carry but there still is a limit to what moves you can tie together fluidly. Ideally I'd love to be able to use every weapon from every game at once but that's impractical.
Overall I'm happy with Dante's style switching and controls because my only real limit is myself and not the game.
I agree with pretty much everything here, but I also want to bring up the DMC3 freestyle mode weapon wheel. I think a wheel might be able to make handling multiple weapons a bit more effective, but not if it was like DMC3. I think the issues with DMC3 are that you have 5 weapons in a fixed position on the wheel and each weapon isn't limited to a cardinal direction. I think 4 would be the optimal number to choose, one per stick direction, and you could rotate through clockwise if you didn't use the wheel by pressing the button. I could see this working with 5 weapons too, but you'd need to have one be unselected as a center weapon (probably default Rebellion/E&I) and flick the direction of the equipped weapon to unequip. The ability to customize which weapons are assigned where would be a necessity as well. (Although the DMC3 wheel doesn't do this, I should also say that the wheel shouldn't slow time while using it to change weapons.)
@@NarrowSpark96
There's a better option... Hold R1 + Input for Devil Arms and Hold L1 + Input for Guns.
The analog stick weapon wheel isn't as efficient and the cycle system in DMC4 only worked well with 3 to 4 weapons per bumper input or as a full cycle in the case of Vergil.
@@absolstoryoffiction6615 I guess I phrased it poorly, cause that's what I was suggesting. You can still tap to change manually, but you hold and flick a direction to change weapons (or otherwise tap the button to shift like past games). That's also how the DMC3 freestyle mode works too, just weirder cause it has 5 weapons and they go at weird angles.
@@NarrowSpark96 That's a really good idea to have a weapon like Rebellion be the neutral with the other 4 being directional inputs. The weapon wheel is a really good solution especially if it's done better than DMC3's. Like you said, the problem with DMC3's wheel was the weird angles. Sometimes I'd flick the analog stick for a specific weapon only to get the one next to it because I was slightly off. My other issue was how unresponsive the wheel felt. You had to hold the weapon switch button down for like a solid second which is way too long for a game like DMC. Doom Eternal has a setting where you can lower the time it takes to bring up the weapon wheel and that felt way more responsive so it can work in DMC.
I always found style switching to be really satisfying to do in a combo. Kingdom Hearts is the only other game I can think of that made me quickly use the dpad under pressure in an equally satisfying way. Kinda just feels like you're playing better than the devs expect you to.
I've day dreamed a few other ways the controls could work (well, really just DMC3 switch's weapon wheel system but using the dpad instead of the analog since I thought about it while playing 5) but I don't think things should change outside of maybe just having more options in general. Let someone make a control scheme hellscape if they want, it'll be funny.
That's a good point about DmC, however I still feel that using the dpad to change the function of a single Style button four ways is relatively clunky.
I think it'd make sense to incorporate Trickster/RG into his regular moveset, then have Gunslinger/Swordmaster as just 2 styles
love the video
the Cosmic Fall theme? Based
did you see Xrd is getting rollback?
Yeah I did. I'm pretty hyped!
16:00 Im so confused by this. If you want to get to the last weapons, just tap the button a couple times. The weapon wheel is an extra option, you can also just press the button and cycle through like normal. I also have very little trouble switching on the wheel. It sounds like either execution error or just an imperfect implementation of the weapon wheel idea, rather than a problem with the concept itself.
Something you forgot to mention is that DMC require to put the left stick in certain direction to perform some moves which is tedious when you have to change style on the fly.
I usually always like having hold actions on trigger and actions that you can spam and hold on a bumper. neros buster for example can hold an enemy so i put that on the right trigger and the gun on right bumper.
I'm just happy we got style switching after 3
I have DMC3 on switch and never realized I can use the weapon wheel as a proper wheel because either I miss when they say it or free style mode is super clunky itself to use
I gotta say, it took me a while to learn style switching with Dante. It was definitely weird at first realizing you can switch from what style moveset to another. However, after almost 350 hours in the game, I wouldn't have it any other way.
Actually, after watching your movement through moves, it really helped open up my brain to using what was give and unlock, but still be super stylish doing so.
I can see where it can be daunting, if you're playing DMC for the first time. After replaying the game again and again, there's still so many ways on how you can be stylish.
Personally I use a pro controller and have style switching mapped to the back 4 back paddles. It makes switching faster and my thumb never leaves the stick
I, who played DMC2 when it came out and than DMC3, was dreaming of style switching tech as it was so amazing in DMC2 to run on the walls and than do gun spin attack. So, the way DMC4/5 has done it is perfect
I've never considered style switching bad. I'm surprised people do! In fact, style switching (and multiple weapons) is the reason I love playing as Dante in DMC5. And it's also what makes me hesitant about jumping into DMC3. Yes, I can mod it in, but it seems more designed for people after they've beaten DMC3 on their first go around.
Fantastic arguments man. Good on you for showing all the relevant footage too.
My setup: Triangle-Melee, X- use style, square-cycle guns, circle- cycle swords, R1- fire guns, R2- jump, L1- lock on, L2- Devil Trigger, DPad- Standard style switching, select- taunt. This setup works out great. Comfortable, and I do use claw grip as needed, but most of the time I use my thumb for styles.
A form I felt comfortable with was holding L1+a face button for each style instant action, I keopt weapon and gun switch to the R2 and L2, devil trigger in circle, only downside was holding sin dt but i have a controler with two programable back buttons, so I just assigned one to do circle and felt this the way to go without clawing or jumping my thumb between dpad and Lstick
idk about Xbox but i assume it also works, but on PC you can pick any layout you want, on PS4 even if you couldnt change the layout in game there is an option to switch the buttons so you can create any layout you want and you can save multiples