EV Trucks Are About to Take Over Because of This!
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- Electric trucks are one step away from outlasting, out-powering, out-hauling, and out-towing internal combustion engine - or ICE - trucks - and doing it with ample range to spare. Sounds impossible? It's much closer than you think!
With so many FUD-chuckers claiming EV trucks are dead, it's no wonder many have overlooked these shocking developments. EV battery technology is in its infancy, and changes to LFP (lithium iron phosphate) and NMC (nickel, manganese, cobalt) batteries are just the starting point. What is already underway is nothing short of revolutionary!
If you wish to further support the channel, or would like to connect directly and ask specific questions about electric trucks, consider contributing to the Coffee & Flat Tire Fund as a Patreon member and get exclusive access and perks! The link is below.
Thank you for watching!
0:00 - Intro
1:35 - Every FUD addressed
1:56 - What has already happened
2:24 - Legacy Auto Short-Term Band-Aids
4:21 - Lithium Ion Battery Evolution Faster than Solar
5:00 - Cost
7:10 - Density
10:32 - Cycle Life
13:33 - Bonus!
15:22 - Outro
This video is NOT sponsored. Some product links are affiliate links which means if you buy something I'll receive a small commission.
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#evtruck #lithiumbattery #evrange - Auta a dopravní prostředky
So, the mainstream narrative these days is that electric trucks are plummeting in demand and doomed before even getting going.
Nothing could be further from the truth - because we are actually at the cusp of revolutionary change that does nothing but give truck folk something to really celebrate in the near future. What are your thoughts? Is it more about the tech changes coming, or getting Legacy Auto to take the plunge and finally commit? Let me know in the comments below!
Didn’t Ford discontinue their entire line after putting billions in?
Pairing that with limited mileage and nonexistent mileage when towing?
No, no, & no - but thanks for checking...
@@truckedupevs “Ford has shut down production and shipping of the F-150 Lightning electric truck, citing a battery issue.” Im not holding my breath that this will ever restart.
Nice quote. Source, please.
Sorry to hear you rely on FUD for your news sources. There is something called Google that might clarify things 🙂
Ford shut down ONE line - out of two, and are currently producing 1,600 units per week, still 50% growth over 2023, although half of Ford's 'growth' target that it deliberately sabotaged - after bilking its customers into cancellation.
They have done a stop delivery notice - not a stop in production - on those units for quality control inspections, and as they go out, they are being prepped for delivery at applicable dealers.
Ford hates to sell EV trucks, being they haven't figured out how to make money at them yet, under their top down, outsourced disastrous 'on-time, on-demand' supply chain issue (that was bulldozed during COVID), and wants to make all their money off of ICE trucks, which they make billions at - at consumers' expense.
In other words, they deliberately priced their ev truck product out of the market in an attempt to either kill its demand or exploit buyers - who consequently told Ford to pound sand and cancelled their orders - as did I - as they did back in the 2000s with the their first foray into evs to meet compliance.
Over 90% of Ford's orders on the Lightning were for the XLT and Pro. Ford subsequently & deliberately allocated 90% of their Detroit, Michigan Rouge factory output for Lariats and Platinums, in an attempt to force their loyal clients to spend more, which backfired at the dealerships, when dealers added another $30K ~ $50K 'market adjustment' on top of the already inflated price from what had been promised.
Here's a Dec 2023 Motortrend article about the REAL reason that demand has slowed, not stopped or ended.
www.motortrend.com/news/ford-f-150-lightning-ev-pickup-truck-production-reduction-report/
Demand is growing, just not at the rate Ford had banked on, after trying to rip off their loyal client base. EV Truck sales are rising, not falling. Here's some more info for a good read:
www.greencarreports.com/news/1141720_ford-opts-to-slow-f-150-lightning-ev-production-not-lower-price
Range is excellent for an ev truck, especially when 87% of the average American truck owner NEVER tows or hauls and almost exclusively uses their truck for shopping and errands - at under 50 miles, or 80km per day.
Towing sucks, down by 30% of range in the summer; 50% in the winter - but not 'non-existent' cited in your inaccurate post. The 2024 vapour injection heat pump will dramatically improve winter numbers, along with what is cited in this video.
If you would like more information, please try Google - or just reading something accurate.
It's free.
@@jsbrads1
Also see 6:24 mark in this video for further clarification on the so-called 'production end'. Cheers.
Always love the one off scenarios. People have to remember companies focus on the 90% not the 10%. Most truck owners at least 1/2 ton category never haul or tow anything. Which is sad.
100%. For those who need a truck for truck stuff, solutions are on the way, IMHO. For everyone else like me, current ev trucks already exceed their needs. Even better, maybe they'll get a non-truck for non-truck things 😎😜
Well done. Nice job on the research and graphics. Recently shared a battery cost graph with a family member ... this year they switched from a gas ice fishing auger to a battery one and love it.
Thank you, Scott! I have two logger friends who are fallers, and they're die-hard old-school Husqvarna fans, but after using an electric chainsaw, they use them almost exclusively now.
Awesome comment, and unique, relevant take on the tech. Thanks again!
Everything evolves. Newer technologies and refining them are commonplace. 60 years ago, no one thought that we would be holding phones in our hands and that the computer systems in the Apollo missions would not hold a candle to the cellphone or even Apple watch around your wrist. There is always a group who resist change but it is inevitable. Dodge's motto back in the day: "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."
Great comment! Thank you for these excellent realities about tech. Well said!
Good info👍
Thank you, Patrick!
Argonne National Lab has done some amazing work over the last few decades.
I only learned of them when researching this article but yeah, wow, the DOE lab via the University of Chicago has spearheaded many groundbreaking tech discoveries.
Thank you so much for the insight, and for watching!
I think you're generally right. The current crop of EVs are promising if a bit expensive and uncertain. I'm not sure if I agree with your thoughts on the pace of development, and there's the question of how quickly the developments will translate to production vehicles, but I could see things getting a lot better before I need to replace my current ICE daily driver. It will be interesting to see how things shake out.
It's waaaay better to drive a used vehicle than replace it, as far as energy draw. I love this comment. Wait it out and see what develops, especially when you have reliable wheels already. Thank you for your awesome input & support!
The future is electric. No noise, no emissions, less fuel costs and less maintenance costs.
Electric vehicles are just better.
Less fuel cost for now. Early adopters are loving it. But once the Government starts seeing a substantial loss in gas tax revenue, they will find a way to tax us higher for when we are charging our EV's. We are already seeing ESA commercials here in Ontario for safely getting chargers installed, so I give it another 5 years before they find a way to tax us.
Cheers
I'll probably croak before I can hop in an electric truck and do 900 to 1200 mile days even without towing something. That and I only buy trucks with 8 foot boxes.
That's one of the BIGGEST things all ev truck makers have to step up and do: start treating these things like real trucks! My upcoming video addresses the very thing you point out. I am 100% bummed my Lightning didn't have a long box option for work. Great comment. We'll see if you're right about the long range part 🤔
One thousand miles a day is possible in EVs right now.
The Lucid Air could do it with two half hour stops.
The Li Auto Mega could do it with three or four 15 minute stops. It's a three row minivan with 550HP and runs quieter than a Maybach S Class. And cheaper than a Lucid, actually cheaper than an F-150 Lariat. But you'd have to be in China, where they have 500 kW chargers.
This kind of range and charging speed will come to trucks within 5 or 6 years. Maybe sooner.
@@davidmenasco5743 You will also have to wait for a charging infrastructure capable of supporting your specific journey at those charge speeds and wait until the twelfth of never for a pickup with an 8 foot box to appear because the car people who have ruined the pickup don't like their golf clubs to slide out of reach when they hit the brakes.
Good video - love the optimism. Desperately needed as the oil and US vehicle manufacturer lobbies furiously works their main stream media connections to stop EV's. Saw a few videos recently on how quickly the transition from horses to ICE vehicles occurred, and it got me thinking about the current state of the EV market. Let's hope economics continues to trump ideology so the EV revolution really happens just like the horse to ICE revolution happened. Consumers desperately need new more affordable transportation technology because $70K to $80K ICE trucks just aren't affordable. I saw your Ramcharger video and thought that might be a plausible interim step - but after seeing the advancements announced by CATL in April for batteries already in production - I tend to agree that maybe the Ramcharger will be obsolete by the time it hits the showroom. The more I learn about the Chinese auto market and engineering and manufacturing leadership - the more I understand all the protectionism and saber rattling towards the Chinese. if their progress continues a lot of the ICE idealogues should start planning for pastures where they can go visit and pet their ICE trucks that economics will undoubtedly retire.
Absolutely fantastic comment! Thank you for this!
Yes, China is a rising player in the EV truck space that few are factoring in - to their detriment. There is a ton of FUD out there, and I'm seeing it ramp up, along with the polarizing vitriol.
It's simply another means of transportation that, even in its infancy, is one of the most promising means of locomotion for our collective future. But so much disruption is rattling the halls of power and money, and the FUD machine is now in high gear.
Let's hope common sense prevails.
Thank you so much for joining in the discussion!
Love your enthusiasm...and tuxedo kitty
She makes frequent cameos. Such a diva.
700w per kg would be insane. That would be 175kg for 123kw. That would be amazing
One commenter who obviously has an engineering background (which I don't) pointed out that in my video I used gravimetric energy density but once the cells are in a pack it dilutes that value somewhat. So, I might have worked it out a little high but even he made the point that we are at a BIG turning point as far as the weight benefit along with range boost.
Thank you for joining in the conversation - one that matters moving forward - and offering the support for my little channel!
It means a LOT!
Cheers.
S.
It may be another 15 years to reach cars on the road. But it does look like that's the direction things are going.
Still, significant improvements are being realized in cars on the road, about every six months.
As I understand it, Ford is using some of the oldest battery tech, so the Lightning stands to improve quite a bit with coming generations.
In several recent interviews, Ford CEO Jim Farley has dropped several hints on exactly that - and it will only partially come from battery improvements. So many other efficiencies are being played with, including weight, aerodynamics, charging loss reductions, and other gems. T
The future looks pretty bright for EV trucks in my humble view. @@davidmenasco5743
@@davidmenasco5743it is unfortunate that ford couldn't build their Michigan battery plant,the lfp batteries would have made ford EVs cheaper and safer but I guess that's the risk you take when you get entangled in politics.
Charging infrastructure is a big challenge. How about sourcing precious metals ethically though?
I think most automakers are now. Smartphone and laptop companies? Not so much. It took a LOT of bad press for Apple to change its stripes.
The good news is that many EV makers ar eno longer using those questionable rare earth metals. Cobalt, Nickel, and Manganese aren't even used in the newer LFP batteries, but I couldn't agrre with you more.
I did a cross province road trip here in BC. I had zero issues finding 'fast' chargers - but OMG some were snail slow! I plan to do one this summer right across Canada and expect to uncover further bugs an blips, but the biggest mess is not having pull-through chargers for electric trucks and SUVs with a trailer in tow.
Thank you so much for the comment, and for checking out my video!
@@truckedupevsRoad trip videos with the Lightning would be interesting.
Also, some comparison and contrast between the CCS and the NACS chargers, if you get the adapter.
My adapter is on the way, and already planning some interesting road trips with it, as well as comparison videos. Thank you for supporting that Idea! I have just the one road trip video so far, whihc I presume you've already seen (if not, it's here: czcams.com/video/j1SvD2nhSRg/video.html) @@davidmenasco5743
@@truckedupevswhere can I find this information? I haven’t heard that current EV battery talk no longer source rare earth metals. Thanks!
@@tonye2458 There's still 'rare earth' materials such as lithium used, which really isn't rare at all - there just hasn't been the need or demand to mine at increased volumes until recently. What is being referred to when most people are referring to sourcing precious metals ethically is cobalt and nickel, but mostly cobalt, since the mining of it is sometimes done in unethical ways, and comes from only several major sources.
Most companies have already switched to LFP batteries as their primary ones, including many of Tesla's vehicles, which only use lithium, Iron and phosphate. Simply type in 'LFP batteries' in Google and you'll have tons of sources.
I’d like a Maverick sized EV. I appreciate your optimism but I doubt the Ram charger will be obsolete when it comes out. If it works correctly it solves the towing issue as you’ll be able to use gas stations that are better for pulling up with a trailer. The catch is cost and questionable reliability. Don’t know about efficiency. Guessing it won’t be great. But if you want to drive an ev truck, and then tow long distances, it’ll be the only viable choice.
You raise some important points and I appreciate your feedback. I also would love to see a smaller ev truck - and I think it's coming.
My biggest negative on the Ramcharger is how much it will cost for what the buyer will get. Efficiency is important, or there simply is little incentive to buy this thing. With all that additional weight to drag around and still needing a large battery pack but losing a lot of its benefit due to the series hybrid configuration, I think its a stopgap measure that leaves an efficient gas or standard hybrid truck as a much better alternative for likely less money.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see in 2025, but I'm hopeful that the rate of technological change is only accelerating, and that range/towing nut is about to be cracked. Fingers crossed!
Thank you so much for adding important insight to the discussion!
Regarding the aviation point, did you consider takeoff vs landing weight? You shed all the weight of your propellant during flight, but with batteries, you wouldn't. Would every landing become an overweight landing?
Wow! What an awesome question!
In short haul flight such as Harbour Air's electric float-plane fleet here in British Columbia, Canada, the company cites no adverse issues with take-off to landing. I am no engineer, but I am guessing that similar to ICE-to-EV conversion, if your density per KG improved by a factor of 4 - and thus your battery requirement exponentially reduced - the weight savings from the removal of all internal combustion systems, including much heavier engines, would offset at least some of the weight change, including fuel.
If things go the way it looks like they're going, a future ev truck will weigh less than a comparable ICE truck. Aviation is a different ball of wax, but I don't see the landing weight being an insurmountable engineering burden.
Here's what I found from a former IT CEO, aviation developer, and private pilot, Roger Politis, when asked the question, "I was told that we can't have an electric airplane because the engine/battery would be too big/heavy."
Although not an 'expert source' it's what I could find in short order. His response predates the massive leap in density per KG.
Here's his answer:
"Yes. But not because of the weight of the engine (electric engines are relatively lighter than conventional ones), but because of the batteries.
The energy density, or energy produced per weight unit, of gasoline (or kerosene) is about 100 times higher than today’s best batteries (47 Mjoule/kg, vs 0.4 Mjoule/kg).
This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that an electric motor is more efficient (close to 80%) - Trucked Up EDIT: CURRENTLY +90% - than a jet engine (40%), but that makes the difference just 50 times - still not great.
Add to that the fact that a plane gets (much) lighter as it burns fuel, while with batteries you transport deader and deader weight, and you see we’ve still a ways to go with electric planes…"
I hope this helps! Thanks for your comment!
@@truckedupevsWhoa. You earned a sub. Done. 🙂
Thank you so much, and glad to have you along for the ride! @@justinjones1644
Plenty of power
From a tech point of view electric drive trains are so superior to gas systems if you look at it. And this battery thing...whoa, theyre just getting started!
Exactly! Thank you for joining in the discussion, and for watching!
How close do you think we are to EVs being able to reliably haul a 6,000 pound trailer at least 300 miles? That's been my benchmark for being willing to go full EV.
the jerryrigeverything channel showed a range of 90 miles with 11,000 pound capacity for the cybertruck in the cold of course this might seem dissapointing but it turns out only half of cybertruck battery pack had actual batteries which means its range might double to nearly 180 for 11k pound loads
czcams.com/video/yk_u9fbkoKM/video.html
My apologies for missing your comment, since your benchmark is a really good one.
I think we're less than two years away, as long as auto makers don't keep trying to backpedal to their combustion lines that make them so much money.
I think Tesla has had something up its sleeve, especially after launching a 'filler truck' in the Cybertruck to get #s and the ramp to a place that is highly profitable (newest video on this here: czcams.com/video/EpDHovXirow/video.html ).
Ford is purportedly working in tandem with its battery supplier, CATL - and the fact that some of the craziest battery tech that I covered in the video is coming from that company, I truly think the T3 Project might just surprise everyone.
I could, of course, be wrong, but I hope you don't have long to wait.
It's hard to say. New technologies are sparatic. Sometimes they take large leaps and then stall. Sometimes they go up in small leaps continuing for a long time. It's hard to say but I can say with certainty that scientist tend advertise the capabilities of their technology very liberally. All the battery companies boasted we would be driving all semis with their batteries by now. How many years ago did Elon advertise the tesla semi? And seems like hydrogen is the better option for that application with current technology. I'm not disagreeing with you one just never knows. I do think that it's likely we will see advancements in all the areas you mentioned. I think it's less likely we will see large or any advancements in charge times. Fast chargers are hard on battery life and if anything as batteries become more powerful its likely charging to 100 percent will actually be worse. And you are a fan boy 😂😂😂😂😂. I'm just playing. Good video.
Thanks Tyler! It will be interesting to see. The guy at Dalhousie, however, is pretty legit. Almost all advancements we've seen go commercialized, he had a hand in it. But yeah, it's all a crossed-finger kind of thing, but we're closer than many think... I think (hehe).
Okay, I'm a 'quasi' fanboy LOL!
As more charging stations come online and the voltage of ev get better, charging will get easier and ev trucks will make more sense than gas
Excellent point. I think within 24 months, no one will be talking about it - along the same lines of gas stations in the 1920s...
Always appreciate your feedback! Keep it comin'!
For the love of everything decent, please DON'T stop with the puns! I may not have any children, but I do love a good Dad joke.
Weeee! I'll let my friends & family know that I have overwhelming support 😉
the issue with the current price fall is that unlike Tesla, all the others actually lose money on their vehicles if they try to compete...
I don’t believe that. Maybe they aren’t making as much as on gas cars, maybe they haven’t paid off their initial outlay on the new designs and equipment but I don’t believe when they say they can’t make a profit on EVs. Regardless they have to know this is coming and any company that doesn’t keep up will be left behind.
For now...
I could see some giants, maybe falling off a cliff.
But, what's more likely is a lot of consolidation and buckling down from the legacy auto makers in an effort to steamroller forward.
Very true. Not every maker of steam cars successfully transitioned to making gas cars and not every maker of gas cars will successfully transition to electric. Some will be lost and new innovators will succeed. I’ve got a copy of popular mechanics from 1898 and it in there is an article about whether the future or the automobile will be steam or electric. No mention of gas. Interesting!
Charging is one problem. Cemistry must change so its more safe. Its on its way. Then degredation will be less as well problem with temp. But until that day comes lithium is not as great as first thought. Thats why they focus on changing to water based batteries. So EVs will come but cost price compared to wight demand now cos of energy need is to far of. The future will change that like you say. But until then lithium is taken as a resourse from earth and demand is very high so it must change to something else. Storing energy is getting better but cars weigh more cos of regulatins of secruity systems and space needed. So weight has gone up dramaticaly. No one talks about how effective energy is used. Power is needed but not the amount they focus on now. HP numbers is what they advertice with but thats not what makes EVs good. So i hope the future will make them lighter and more efficient. Then charging needs will go down and consumption will fall. Where i live in Norway climate is not hot. The cold weather makes the range decrease and range cut in half. But in other countries with extreem heat degredation is rapid. So the cost is hight if batteries last short. Many things they need to change. They will but not as long as Lithium is the main storing source.
Thank you for your great comment & insight.
I agree with so many of your points. There is a lot of misinformation, however, about lithium vs. current propulsion fuels/energy storage, especially when it comes to availability and cycle life. I am seeing great LFP developments, along with non-battery tech likes Ford Vapour Injection Heat Pump system for HVAC in cold climates. You are so correct, though. We need to make changes faster and bring costs and weight down.
All vehicles are too big and heavy, especially in North America, including gas & diesel. There is a taste for large SUVs that are rarely used for multiple passengers - usually just the driver - or not doing actual light-duty pickup truck work with a pickup :-).
Excellent feedback!
You keep stating cell gravimetric energy density but once the cells are in a pack it dilutes that value somewhat. Yes the future is bright. No it is not 8 times better but more like 1.5x once commercialized.
Thank you for your comment. Current batteries are between 200~300wh/kg. The new science is reaching 700wh/kg, which is right in line with your provided number, so I think we're in agreement. I couldn't find an 8x reference to density in my video, but if so, I appreciate the clarity for viewers.
These developments are great but where is all this electricity going to come from? California doesn't have enough electricity to power the state and charge the EVs we already have.
Great comment. Thank you! The same thing was said about gasoline, gas stations, and roads in the 1920s. Supply and demand is a powerful thing. Did you know the same worry was raised about cloth dryers and home air conditioning when introduced,, which both actually use more electricity?
@@truckedupevs You are correct, but adoption of gasoline burning cars, clothes dryers and air conditioners were not being mandated by the government like EVs so the infrastructure had time to develop naturally. Besides electricity generation, is anyone taking into account the number of additional transformers, copper wire, high tension lines and towers to carry the additional electrical load? It just seems overwhelming to consider the amount of material, production and installation that will be required.
Thanks for the reply, Winston. It is an interesting perspective and raises the question of why the automobile became the dominant form of transportation in the 1920s. In a way, it was similar.
Not only had the average household income gone up in the 'Roaring Twenties' but many urban centres and US states began to restrict access by horse-drawn locomotion, which, in itself, was a kind of mandate.
The transformation was swift, and infrastructure followed rapidly thereafter. By the end of WWII gas stations were everywhere and the oil boom had fully matured to exceeding global demand, which led to a massive proliferation in R&D and petroleum byproducts and applications, especially in agriculture.
I live on a mountainside about twenty minutes from a tiny village, and four EV owners make their own 'fuel' with solar panels on their roofs. We will be doing the same in the near future.
I think that as it matures, so will the underlying requirements, but we'll have to see how it all works out over time. You might very well have good cause for concern, especially with California's recent energy woes.
@@winstonsolipsist1741
@@truckedupevs I was not aware that cities had restricted horse drawn vehicles in the US. I will look into that. Thanks!
New York city had a particular problem with dead horses in the streets, since many were worked often to exhaustion and rarely well fed. When autos came along, permits became a norm, but in short order they weren't required because everyone had cars. Really interesting piece of history, actually. @@winstonsolipsist1741
I don't think people realize how EVs (cars, trucks and SUVs) are in the very early stages of being. EVs have only been really being developed for the mass market for like 15 years at most and they're already getting ranges close to ICE cars and charging keeps getting faster...no it will likely never be faster to road trip an EV but you really only road trip like 1% of the time so who cares if that one road trip takes you an hour longer. EVs are only going to keep getting better.
Great point, Josh. This is so important to emphasize. Wait for the next video dropping tomorrow that further drives this point home.
Batteries in commercial planes ain't happening it's basic physics. Liquid fuels have a huge advantage when weight is a factor. Energy density of fossil fuels are like 13 kwh/kg vs 0.5 kwh/kg for Lithium ion even accounting for the efficiency of batteries the difference is orders of magnitude. Also the plane gets lighter as it burns fuel a battery wouldn't and it is a huge deal to land a plane with weight. So no batteries won't power a commercial airplane not even close. Batteries will get better but energy density per kg won't double. Charging speed, durability/longevity and safety will be the main advancements you will see. I am not against EV's in fact I own a F150 lightning but people need to have realistic exceptions when buying an EV depending on their location and use.
Actually, we have a regional float plane company already flying electric commercial planes: Harbour Air. Sure, that's short-hop stuff, but regional aircraft in Sweden are already in production, along with Air Canada purchasing 30 regional electric planes from Heart Aerospace. Wright Electric has already developed a 100-seater prototype with an 800-mile range.
As you likely know, electric is over 90% efficient vs. 30~40% for aviation fuel, and electric motors weigh a fraction of the mass of jet engines used today. As density improves, weight comes down, so yes, there is no denying physics, but the tech - as mentioned in the video - is fast approaching the point where aviation - even long-flight aircraft - is possible.
Boeing and Airbus both have stated that at at 480wh/kg, long haul could be attainable, but airframes would need to be redesigned in order to do so, and targeted the late 2030s when density might reach that point. However, as my post pointed out, we just hit 711wh/kg.
You think I'm being overly optimistic. That's fair. I feel you are being overly conservative. I guess we'll find out in the coming years :-)
@@truckedupevs That Wright electric plane is a fuel cell not a battery. 711 wh/kg compared to 13000 wh/kg for fossil fuel that is 18x the energy, a airliner like a 737 is never going to be powered by batteries. There are so many other issues with the concept too. Even those small aircraft are questionable if they are viable.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this video wont have aged well in one year.
Add me to your calendar and looking forward to a chat in 12 months...always love a good challenge!
I have history, exponential tech advancement, and data on my side. You've got what... a hunch?
See you in a year.
so much fluff in this video....
And you'll point those parts out, and provide a substantial counter-argument with data to the contrary....
Can't wait...
Just more of the same BS people.
Wow, well researched response. You make a compelling argument. Have you ever thought of a future in politics?
More of the same naysayers is more like it...