Dungeon ceilings - a flaw in design
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- čas přidán 10. 11. 2014
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The first video about Diocletian's palace: • Diocletian's Palace, i...
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Beware the dungeon ceilings of doom!
The basements beneath emperor Diocletian's palace in the city of Split, in Croatia form the core of this video, which I have now decorated with animations. My video editing software plays this footage fine. Unfortunately, when it renders it to a file for upload, it screws it up appallingly. I have contacted various 'support' people but they have told me to do the things I was already doing. I am repeatedly amazed at how bad video formats are, and how they seem to defeat even the most specialist and expensive software. What you see here is a very poor video file which does not come close to my hopes for this one. I spent several days doing the animations, and to see them look so poor is somewhat soul-destroying.
When I'm in shot, location camerawork by Josip Pavic.
Lindybeige: a channel of archaeology, ancient and medieval warfare, rants, swing dance, travelogues, evolution, and whatever else occurs to me to make.
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Dungeon ceilings - a flaw in design
/ user "Lindybeige"
Real dungeons have curves
Truth.
damn curves keep them demons at bay in ma dungeon!
Keep dem Dungeons thicc with lot of booty to collect. c:
i hate how true this statement is
I hate it how good of a rule that is
You forgot the obligatory dungeon torches that are lit even when noone was down there for centuries...
Ah, yes! That is true, and he covers that in another video.
I know this is an old comment, but D&D doesn't necessarily have that problem, due to the existence of a cheap and plentiful magic item known as an "everburning torch"
edi always bugged me in Skyrim. Why the hell does this ancient cave have lit torches in it?!?!
@@jochi7585 ancient cave? dude, theres a much better example. in the lake to the west of the ruins you go to for the tablet, theres a sunken tower. in a chest there, under water, is a lit torch
played lots of RPG adventures only "magic flame" does this, we always brought our own torches and they go out quite fast man you ppl have played with crappy DM's
"Angni throws his javaline, it arcs majestically through the vaulted ceiling of the dungeon, bearing down on the retreating hobgoblin with a deathly wail of steel and birch."
*rolls a 1*
"The javaline misses entirely, lodging itself firmly between the cobbles of the dungeon floor on the other side of the room. The hobgoblin pauses, and spins around, its beady eyes drawn to the glint of metal. "Treasure!" it cries, wrenching the javaline from the floor, then speeding off once more, its footsteps vanishing in the dark tunnels."
"Agni has lost 1 javaline(s)"
+SwitchFeathers You forgot: (Ethan erases the number 2 from his equipment list and writes "1", muttering something about probability and how f'ing bullshit crit fails are).
(The other party members are glad that they've learned to not be in the same room when Ethan rolls to attack).
Javeline?
Ah, a fellow dungeon master. Good to see you.
Yeah every time my warrior rolled a 1 on an attack roll the dm would send his sword flying at the Halfling rogue. Luckily, he was good at dodging.
I feel like a 1 would be the hobgoblin taking the javelin and throwing it back at Agni, wounding him.
So whenever there's a 'flat' roof in DnD it's actually a very carefully disguised and thin layer of wooden rafters that have enough rocks glued to them that it appears to be a full layer - to hide a hidden area so it looks nicer.
Hmmm. I should make all of my flat-roofed dungeons devoid of loot and have it all hidden in the dome spaces above the rafters that make it appear like it's flat but my smart players would know it's not and smash it in to get the hidden treasures!
That or someone rolls a good investigation check.
graveeking *rolls nat 20 for modern breaching charges* yay explosions
Just think of it as a really big space to hide TRAPS in ... [insert Tucker's Kobolds reference[1]].
[1] If you dont get that ... GOOGLE!
You may be forgetting the Trapper from the original Monster Manual. Curved ceilings finally allow a place for these poor neglected terrors.
You smash it thinking there is treasure laying within.
Instead, the rafters overhead collapse upon your head.
They could have false ceilings under the arches.
It also gives them somewhere to keep all those trap mechanisms.
They've got curved ceilings.
CURVED.
CEILINGS.
71MonsteR89 nice meme :P
*click* noice
*keels over in dragon language*
Dat Skyrim reference doe!
Ever seen those dungeons from Hammerfell?
What really sucks is I went on a sarcastic tangent last week while playing Dungeons & Dragons. About how the designers of the dungeon we were wasting so much space by having five foot thick walls.
Oops.
lol
A comment like that makes me think you never took any classes pertaining to civil engineering, then?
The Greyhound Not a single civil engineering class, damn country school system dropping the ball. Making me look stupid in front of my D&D group.
@@TheGreyhoundGames Hey, let's belittle a guy who's being self-deprecating. Making fun of himself isn't enough. He opened himself up to criticism and continuing our day without getting a jab in would be unthinkable. Must take all opportunities to feel smarter than people even while they're pointing our their own mistake.
@@RogaineForEwoks Ya know what? You learned something new! We all make mistakes and even I am learning new stuff about the Medieval era 30 years later... 😄
So gelatinous cubes would actually look like gelatinous bread loaves?
Obviously, but not because of that ceiling but rather because of their own surface tension (which would "want" the jelly to become a ball shape) which fights againstr gravity (which would like the jelly to spread out all over the floor).
No, the corridors are arched too. It's a waste of time and effort to carve out the upper corners. Look at any ancient tunnel that was carved into the rock and you'll see that truth.
"So you got him then?"
"No, but I was a lot closer this time!"
I can never tell if one of his videos is from 5yrs ago or 5days ago.
Dude hasn’t aged a day
Sir, your voice-acting is awesome.
He should do VO
"So we built a third castle, that burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one...stayed up!"
Ah, but what if the architecture is MAGIC?
The alternative to this would be one constructed out of Handwavium.
That's how religion solved all the question
"but what if the is made by the god?"
Yuuuup
Maaaagic. *snort snort
Best solution, make your dungeons out of blueshine enchanted adamantine. That shit ain't ever coming down.
Jane Murphy
Blueshine load bearing is best load bearing.
I've always imagined dungeon ceiling to be rounded, it surprised me that people think of them as flat.
2ndPerk. Dungeon is like I'm not flat
People build these multi-level dungeons where a trap door in the floor on level 1 neatly corresponds with the same trap door in the ceiling on level 2. When with a curved ceiling, you’d have to have another trap door in the ceiling on level 2 and maybe a long chute between them.
The comments on this video are refreshingly civil, especially by CZcams standards. Not to mention a delight for the dungeon ceiling enthusiast.
Ah, dungeon bypass for the win. I still remember when the DM didn't think about all the creative uses for a decanter of endless water in a 100% subterranean dungeon.
1. Take the decanter.
2. Put on full blast
3. Throw it into the dungeon entrance.
4. Stoneshape to seal the entrance.
5. Wait a couple of days.
6. Go underwater spelunking to collect your loot.
You killed all of the goblin babies and innocent cave dwellers.All of the scrolls were ruined.All of the steel weapons and armour have rusted.The lava pit where you were to use destroy the ring is now solid volcanic rock.The water monster in the pool in room 4 is still waiting for you.The witch you need to gather critical information for next adventure has melted.And you drowned the princess.Also the water comes from somewhere else in the world... you manage to destroy an ecosystem and extinct the water fairies from Callah's bog thereby releasing the demon hoard upon the world that they kept trapped for a millinium.Is your character chaotic evil?
Congratulations. You now have a dungeon filled with very miffed water elementals that were pulled against their will from the Elemental Plane of Water through a straw.
Yeah, most of the sane DMs outright ban or limit Decanter of Endless Water as it is a ludicrously game breaking item. Other limitations would be placed on Wall of Iron, Create Water/Food and other spells that shatter economies.
OgreOnAStick Truth be told, Full Casters as a whole kinda break games... There are so many ways to royally screw with games as a Full Caster that the GM either needs to arbitrarily become a massive douche in return or the spellcaster needs to agree to some gentlemen's agreements.
I have spent much time on Paizo's forums... one thing I have learned is that by level 10-12, non casters are only around because the spell casters let's them xD
***** The problem is when you start applying feats to it. There were some very very wacky ways to min-max the fuck out of that spell, mostly involving illusion magic and small businesses.
Create Food and Water literally puts farmers out of their job once you realize how common temples and shrines with low level divine casters are. Also, the food does not decay if you purify it daily, thus allowing for creation of massive food stockpiles, assuming they are not immediately consumed by the masses or distributed to other stockpiles.
Create Water (the cantrip) functions exactly like the decanter example provided above, but is more time consuming (but ultimately cheaper). Also: Steam engines, hydroelectricity, turning desert into farmland (assuming that you need it for commercial use) and other colonization applications.
Wall of Iron/Stone tanks the price of iron and stone, respectively. In addition to it's obvious construction value Wall of Stone can be used to create statues of rare beasts that when cast Stone to Flesh become corpses of said rare beasts that can be dismantled for crafting materials.
Minor/Major Creation + Eschew Materials = Osmium Bomb is one of it's least gamebreaking applications.
Polymorph (Any Object especially) and it's derivatives. No. Just. No.
Passwall is just a dungeon bypass in and of itself. As are any creatures with digging capability that are available by Summon Monster line of spells. Also, summons are free labour.
Glibness allows for one to sell totally real bridges along major trade routes that can be taxed for huge sums of tariffs and you absolutely want to buy it from me for everything you own.
And many, many more applications of said spells and others that are unlisted. Add in Circle (Jerk) Magic, Genesis and Cohorts to boost said spells if you want your game master to murder you in your sleep.
Also, what are these rituals you speak of? Somekind of humbug hedge wizardry I guess.
>comes from England
>modern era
>uses imperial system
France uses it in a few places. as do a few people in Canada and people in those countries actually have the ability to stay modern and win a few wars (not France as much).
Besides it's easier to say an inch than three centimeters. All around the imperial system is just better to use when it's not being used for precise measurements because it's just straightforward.
It's not much better but it is easier to say because imperial measurements are only 1 syllable normally. It's convenient but not as simple, but it doesn't make it inaccurate by any means.
>Not precise
>Slightly more practical
>Not used for science
You literally repeated what I said but made it sound like you are arguing against me. How and why?
Mauricio José Osuna I guess.
As much as I love the huge underground complexes in movies like The Mummy and Indiana Jones, I'm always like, "Hmmm, how exactly did they build this?" :D
Well, in the case of Temple of Doom it was natural caves and slaves. They had a whole mine cart section.
*****
Corrected.
10,000 men, 20+ years, and a lot of blood, sweat, and effort. Egyptians had a large amount of time they were doing nothing so they paid dues and showed respect that be returned in the afterlife with labor. Rest were skilled labor who got paid for this and worked year-round in camps. Rhamses II temple/monument was literally carved out of a cliff face like Rushmore except no explosives. Large fires and water to heat shock the rock into cracking/crumbling then chisels and picks.
The greasiest of elbow grease!
Aegyptian's aren't like Anakin; they like sand!
Also they turned the damned stuff into advanced science... for the time. Rocks and sand=cosmology and glazing.
Well I have no idea why this is in my suggested feed but I'm interested.
"No idea why"
"I'm interested"
@@chrisp.2852 I like how you thought you were making a point😂
Wouldn't the little gnomey guy just find himself with a broken javelin?
***** jammed in crack in the stonework
*****
Adamantine javelin. ;)
Jane Murphy He jammed his adamantine javelin in a crack? :P
Seren Kuhanandan Adamantine is harder then stone, according to D&D rules it could get imbedded in it.
Jane Murphy and bad innuendo is bad :(
You forget that there's no ceilings in D&D, because most GMs don't like elevation. So you can assume characters never look up, like in 90s Doom.
Must be a really lazy GM if they can't bother thinking of elevation. My GMs have always been wary of elevation and used it to create really interesting content.
Also, the comparison to Doom is just silly because it makes use of varying elevation.
Beato the Golden
Meh, doesn't count. Elevator? Take you to a different map. Stairs? Just enter another room, and the fact it slopes upward is fluff and maybe a terrain difficulty thing.
Usammity
Your idea of "varying elevation" seems to be depressingly cynical.
Beato the Golden
Yeah, I understand, but elevation can also be extra work.
Usammity
Indeed it is. However, that is exactly what separates the lazy GMs from the creative, effort applying GMs.
Not to say that a GM is inherently lazy or uncreative for not applying meaningful elevation, though.
I really enjoyed this vid. Thank you for posting it. The information you gave actually answered some "real" questions I had about fantasy dungeons. Thank you for your great work and outstanding vid. I just found you due to a post in a PRG forum, and now I am a subscriber. Keep them coming my man!!
As someone who has DM'd for 15 years, this is a constant gripe of mine in dungeon construction. Thank you for this.
I think we should have continuing adventures of Cyril :)
Cyril, alas, has had a plundering accident.
Who is Cyril?
NNNOOOOOOOOO! CYRRRILLLLLLLLL!!!!
SirTeddy Ill I second that, who is Cyril?
@@adrenochromejunkie Methodeus' sidekick. They travel around the dungeons spreading Christianity and making alphabets for the goblins.
Quebec city's 'old town' district has plenty of examples of arched stone ceilings - mostly now used as bars or restaurant dining rooms. It's great to be able to interact in such spaces in normal day-to-day sorts of activities.
I must say, you've gotten pretty good at this animation thing, Lloyd.
You're videos are perfect to watch in a rainy day. Thank you.
The animations in the more recent videos have been really good. Keep it up!
Sir Lindybeige, thank you for this informative video. You've helped me get a better grasp on dungeon making that I can use in both my DnD/Pathfinder campaigns and the video game I plan on making. :)
Thanks to this video, I now have to start over and start a 6th Dwarf Fortress so I can have a realistic one to transfer over to a D&D (or Pathfinder) map I'm trying to make for an adventure module.
I really should have just taken an engineering course first by this point. It would have taken less time.
Aah, I've used DF to design dungeons before. Loads of fun.
Nice trick you can do if your players are very attentive, and you're descriptive of rooms a bit.
Have the rooms vaulted, but like at the end of this video, include a wooden ceiling occasionally in the larger ones. (Perhaps with wooden supports in the wider rooms for that ceiling.)
Do what you will from that point, as you've increased the space in the dungeon quite a bit.
I personally ran a game once, where after traversing through an outer dungeon. The party came to a series of corridors which had a second floor on them. (I just said, "the roof of the corridors here are wooden and flat rather than vaulted stone. Curious").
After they didn't pick up on it at all, as I had been very specific to tell them that all paths they had been on were stone vaulted ceilings. And even explained and drew out to one what a vaulted ceiling.
So when they got to one of the rooms in the path. They were forced to realize that no only were they in a killbox, defending entrance into the dungeon proper. But several of the bandits had flanked around behind them, on the second floor. And now they were facing a room with arrow slits through the walls. Hot water being poured from the floor above. ~6 melee bandits that would have usually been trash mobs now, but since they were giving the archers sneak attacks all the time.
It was a fun game. TPK, that I hadn't even intended on happening. All I wanted for them to do was notice the second floor, and check it out a bit. But NOOOOOO.
Good work. Unplanned TPKs can totally be hilarious, but when it happens because of some tactical scheming, it can be very satisfying. XD
I'll definitely doing the wooden floor thing now. As soon as I saw it in this video, i was pretty fascinated by it. I just realized for most of my Dwarf Fortress dungeons I already had a habit of making domed rooms actually. I did it just because having everything go straight up seemed boring and arches just seemed right for some reason. But I'm sure I wasn't consist enough because it wasn't something I was actively considering.
Benjamin Peters
Yeah DF is a godly game (personally I can't wait for LNP to get updated for 64 bit. I'm already running a 16x16 embark, but it's a nightmare without therapist)
Good luck with your campaign planning.
oh no help me, I am on a Lindybeige binge. xD
*Lindybinge
*Bingybeige
lindybingybeige
Brains for Dinner *bonerbig wait what ?
*bingebingebingebinge binge
That animation bit in the middle! Oh that made me laugh. You should do more of that, if you enjoyed it.
The alternative to curved ceilings is beams sufficiently strong to transfer the weight to the walls. In this case you'll find that the structural supports extend the entire height of the structure, however many floors that is.
Very informative thank you, I will be sure to make all my future dungeons with a domed ceiling,
Great video. I especially liked the animations. You are spot on about the way dungeons tend to be represented but I always personally thought of them as either re-purposed sewer systems or natural caves. I never really saw them the way they are represented on a map.
Thank you for wearing a Remembrance Poppy! I wear Royal British Legion, Royal Canadian Legion, and American Legion Poppies every Remembrance Day.
this was truly fascinating and informative. well done sir.
When it comes to writing stories (in a setting of similar time periods) this was very helpful. Thanks!
Haha, this is great stuff. As a dungeon master I highly support these kinds of videos. As a side note, in my campaigns I have let some floors collapse underneath the players, due to the weakened foundation. What do they expect when walking around an ancient underground complex? For everything to be in tip-top condition?
When walking in a clearly abandoned and out-of-shape complex, I demand that my walking space is of the highest quality. :)
Yea any time weve ever had to go underground onto something that isn't soil we prod the floor and carefully move forwards
Brilliant! I am assuming permission to steal that idea for my campaign.
I always think of dungeons in the D&D sense as being rather like a cross between Petra and Wooky Hole - some natural cave formations and others where the rooms are carved out of solid rock, rather than a basement level of a larger structure
I never thought about that, This is an excellent point...i now have several dungeons i must rewrite the descriptions for
HOooo ! ... TREEeeasure... TREEAASURE !!!!! ...
That's why when one of my players cast Shatter in the room of a dungeon they were in I had that room's ceiling cave in.
Really enjoying the videos on this subject (between this and Diocletian's Dungeon giving me plenty of inspiration for my next session).
These animation are just awesome! :D
And just as I was saying this I read the end quote thing about the time it takes to make an animation... But they're still just great
On the first shot when you said "palace" I thought "wait, I think I've been there" and indeed, I was in Split not too long ago. Really enjoyed it.
I didn't know Lindybeige was into RPGs! My new goal is to play a game of DnD with this crazy brit.
Ahh, you were in Diocletian's Palace! Charming isn't it?
I enjoyed this one. May have to incorporate more curvature into ceilings when I write. Also, props on the animation. That was great. Need to share this with my gamer friends.
This is sheer brilliance. Amazing animation!
Lindybeigege, thank you so much for this awesome vid.
Love your videos! They're so informative & helpful, especially in regards to fantasy world building. :)
Ah-ha! Your nitpicking of the use of vaulted ceilings in javelin throwing left you open to my nitpickery of your depiction of javelins! They were DESIGNED to break on impact so that they could not be thrown back!
What you are speaking of was known as a pilum. A pilum was (hypothetically) a wooden shaft with a metal length to the point designed so that the shaft would break from the point on impact, disallowing it from being thrown back. Though it is equally as (hypothetically) likely that the design of the weapon was specifically to sunder shields so that the shield user would have to either discard the shield or use it at a large disadvantage.
A pilum was complex to produce and complex to effectively employ.
A "javelin" is a simple wooden shaft with a metal point fixed over one end. Simple to produce and simple to use. Not as hardy or long as a spear but easier to throw.
Javelins were not designed to break, you are propagating half-knowledge.
Javelins being thrown back was usual and is extremly well documented.
And no, Pila were not designed to break either, they were designed to bend.
Hit the shield, get stuck, metal haft gets bent, pilum is encumbering the shield *and* not usable again because its bent.
Bent specifically from the weight of the wooden shaft, that was still attached as the tip was lodged in shield (or enemy).
Look stuff up before you correct people.
Lindy even has videos about them ..
Guys, I got this.
A javelin is a thrown spear.
A pilum is a particular type of javelin with a long head that deforms on impact.
The Romans weren't the only ones to use such a weapon. Germanic tribes, either inspired by Rome or of their own innovation, used Angons, which were very similar except the bendy part was probably longer, into the late middle ages. They were very effective for the shield-wall warfare that dominated Northern Europe at the time
Close all, but really it goes like this:
Spears are the basic unit of weaponry, a long handle with a point at the end.
Javelins are spears meant to be thrown. They often embedded in the soft ground on a miss but were also often barbed to make pulling them out harder. Since the majority of javelin throws missed this didn't greatly impact the rate of being thrown back.
Pila were a kind of javelin used by the Romans with a long iron head meant to bend after penetrating shield layers as the heavy back of the pilum fell on it, making it hard to remove and immobilizing the shield. The ground could break or bend these just like other javelins, but whether they could be thrown back depended mostly on where and how and what they hit.
Much as javelins =/= pila, even the pilum thing is open to debate. Conventional Roman tactics would involve a charge immediately following the volley of thrown weapons at quite short range. Enemies pulling one out of someone or something in time to lob it back would have been a minor issue at best, particularly since most who intended to throw something would have probably brought something of their own to throw anyway. There's quite a lot of evidence to suggest pila were sometimes even used as improvised spears, and even specifically hardened to prevent bending for this purpose; their function as armour-piercing thrown weapons necessitated a long, slender metal tip, and metalworking at the time made that prone to bend. That was beneficial and not something people typically put in work to avoid, but to call it a design element is a stretch. In the one subgroup of javelins where the thing you said is true.
Awesome awesome video Lindybeige!
This actually got me thinking about air circulation in dungeons, I am not certain if it is a problem in real live, but am assuming that without some sort of air shaft breathing would be quite challenging. It would be pretty neat to have that sort of challenge in a dungeon or underground complex scenario. Players having to worry about being able to breathe while travelling underground. Could make for a very interesting scenario as most rule systems have ways of calculating how long someone can hold their breath and I'm sure that it wouldn't be very challenging to create a rule that encompasses breathing in old air and choking after some length of time. Great vid, go me thinking.
Well, in natural caverns air flows freely, mainly due to the possible presence of two apertures and water flowing in. If you get inside an abandoned mine, though, breathable air becomes a concern. There may be the formation of gasses, depending on rock content (very dangerous in coal mines), and if you get in a dead branch where there has been something burning, even long time ago, you could find yourself breathing carbon dioxide or, worse, carbon monoxide (likely a mix of both). That's why we carry gas detectors with us when exploring old mines.
Dungeons's ceilings can be flat, as long as they have pillars in some of the bigger rooms.
Yeah that's what I figured. Arches/domes are nice and all, but just adding some pillars for support seems so much simpler, and can provide an interesting gameplay element (you can hide behind them, etc.).
For an example, see the ceilings of the Halls of Moria in the bowel of the Misty Mountain.
Aye, but you need alot of big pillars. The architects have to ask themselves "is it worth it?" As you might have noticed most of the room in these subterranean spaces were used.
*****
Yeah exactly, don't want to know how many tons are on there
Yeah, not with all that earth bearing down on it. Ceilings have to be vaulted, either groin or barrel vault. Or the room can be much longer than it is wide, like in egyptian stone work (could be wrong about the latter though).
love your vids man, huge fan now.
😀 Loved the animations. Ofc also nice brief and to the point info with great real life footage!
I've never played Dungeons & Dragons, but watching your presentations has tempted me... almost.
Dear Sir, I love the humour your vids include. Keep it up! It...well, you know what 'it" I mean...
Man you put out A LOT of videos.
Yeah man, it's been a good few months for us lindybeige addicts.
We're getting our fix now regurarly.
Here's to hoping he keeps this up.
amarj
It's been a good october and november so far anyway.
Wow, you did a lot of work on this one. Thanks!
Haha! I had a good chuckle at that last bit with the goblins XD Cool to know though, I'll keep this in mind for future dungeons :D
Love your sense of humor. Back when we played, I guess we were just historical fantasy buffs, as we did lots of arched ceilings, doors, and round rooms when we designed our own 'dungeons'. We did a lot of cave exploration adventures, as well, and these we usually drew free-form, and thus had to describe them as, well, cave-like. :)
The good thing is that with sites like DriveThruRPG being supplied with user-created maps, there are a lot of really good ones there.
Thanks Lindy. Love your vids!
After binging on numerous History Channel and NatGeo shows on cities of the underground and ancient architecture and such, I have been including the arching of under-stone rooms and halls in my table-top RPGS. I use under-stone because it could be underground, or under a castle, or under a town (old sewers have arched ceilings, if not a round profile) and so on.
Hey thanks for wearing the poppy...
- a veteran...
Lindy Beige will travel to an ancient croatian basement in order to make a point about dungeon design in D&D. Now that's dedication.
"Ooh, I get him, I throw!" Is this a barbarian with Javelins?
I feel the point made in this video is very much moot, because unless there is in architect in your group no one will ever call you out on that. However, this vid is so well argued, illustrated and humorous, that I can not not upvote.
Good point, didn't think of that.
Really fascinating just how much that vault you used for the 'two layer' diagram looks so similar to Castle Vault in Southampton, which was built more than a millenium later: a single story of flat walls, topped off with a semicircular vault. Funny how an apparently quite complex design can persist or re-emerge as a result of the fundamental factors of the design staying the same. It's like convergent evolution, expressed through architecture.
This was both educational and freaking hilarious! XD Kudos!
Always did make that assumption in my games! I actually draw faint crosses and other lines across rooms to denote vaults, ribbing and other "ceiling features." Another great video, especially the the basements part!
You know, another thing usually forgotten about is the displacement of excavated stone. All the carved out spaces means corresponding volume of stone that's often wasted, if not simply ignored to a degree that's as if the excavated material simply vanished.
You could reverse that. See that massive ziggurat on a flat plain? There must be a dungeon nearby!
I think the usual solution is to dig a big pit and throw everything in there.
Lindybeige
Or us it in a surface construction projects. That's how catacombs of Paris started - underground quarries.
Lindybeige
But what do you do with the material you dug out to make the big pit? Wait. Don't tell me: you dig a bigger pit to throw that into...
rmsgrey
That material goes into the nearby river or swamp to increase the amount of land you can build houses on. For dungeons in secluded locations, well, they're usually old. Who knows what might have happened to all that gravel during the years?
Lindybeige I'm embarrassed to say, that because of my wording, I can't be sure if you took what I said as intended, to be talking about how writers of roleplaying and books tend to forget about all the excavated material.
Of course by saying so now, I get to worry about how this comment might make me seem to underestimate your ability to know what I meant.
And further off topic; I seem to have trouble lately when I comment and say something, and then worry about failing to address something, and I type more, and it opens up more implications or possible ommissions to worry about.
Does this happen to anyone else?
I love Lundy, he's got such great content
Really fun and very informative. I like your videos :)
I've never played D&D, and only know bits from ProJared, but this was quite entertaining. Excellent work.
Damn that was a great video. Dare I say it felt scholarly which is very cool.
Look at mines. You can have rectangular rooms, IFF you have (many) cross-bracings, buttressed at either end.
If the rock is hard enough, you can have quite wide flat roofs in a mine without any cross-bracings in sight. Source: Every underground coal mine I've seen.
very true!
Gunnar René Øie coal mines are supported thru a bore and glue system. they bore a hole into the ceiling and force fill the hole with thick glue. the force at which it is driven in spreads it thru the rock itself, in between the cracks and even into the very strata. the ceiling is reinforced from within as the glue hardens. they are flat ceilings that are reinforced thru modern tech, like the glue forced in by modern hydrolics. in a coal mine you may "see" a flat ceiling, but what you dont see is the impressive part. it has nothing to do with how "hard" the rock is.
I actually LOLed at the end of this video. Great work!
A good point. I was already doing that sort of thing, but good point none the less. I also don't hesitate to place dangerous areas, cave in prone that is as hazards....
Those animations are incredible!
Great video as always :)
You are definetly one of my favourite youtube channels, because the combination of historical knowledge and humor is absolutely perfect.
I also have a little question:
Why did knights kept using swords in the times of full plate armor?
Because wouldn't a impact weapon like a mace be much more effective?
Was it because of status, or because you could use it like a crowbar?
Thank you very much and greetings from Austria ;)
Keep on with your awesome work
I'm obsessed with your vidios :D
I laughed so hard at that Javalin skit at the end, lol.
Sadly, I think I would have probably been the Javalin guy in that situation.
So did you get him?
noooo, he get away.
These animations are great! :D
Good point, however, wouldn't it make more sense for the dome/arch to go front to back (from the side perspective) rather than side to side? That way from the side, the ceiling would look flat, but looking down the hall it would look arched and be perfectly stable.
Makes more sense to me. Then the people digging the dungeon wouldn't have to remove soo much rock.
Great point, but I have to point out that flat ceilings are perfectly fine as long as they are thick enough compared to their width and made of one piece. So, in a dungeon carved inside a rock, flat ceiling can work if the rooms are not on top of each other or if there's enough stone between the levels (who say's dungeon levels have to be even level anyway?). But if the flat ceiling is built out of smaller pieces, you'll either need good plaster and support structures until it's hardened, or columns everywhere.
Love that animation near the end.
Many old European cities have a labyrinth of underground tunnels and structures going back to Roman times. Paris is a good example as a lot of the stone used to build the old city was quarried from directly beneath the modern city.
So you have modern cities being supported by ancient structures underground. If you have a look at a few of them it gives a good idea of what a realistic dungeon would be like.
It comes down to hollow vs. dead space. The larger the hollow the more dead space needed to support the weight pushing down on the ceiling. Arches direct the weight sideways then down the walls to the fall, but you can also have thick walls and columns although they reintroduce dead space. Any large hollow will either be arched or buttressed with rows of columns.
Is that the "Oooh! Treasure! Treeaasure.." sound effect from Overlord? Love that game series.
The funnest D&D video i have ever seen (explaining D&D)
One man's ceiling is another man's flaw!
Excellent post. Perhaps all the unrealistic architecture in D&D was able to exist because of magic mortar.
For a truly excellent role playing game that is not a combat simulator like D&D, I suggest Ars Magica.
Parts of Meereen in Season 4 were shot at Diocletian's Palace.
Well done! I wonder how much role video games play in flat designs, since square shapes are easier to render on old computers than curved ones? I refer to the way 3 dimensional dungeons appeared in the Wizardry, Ultima, and Bard's Tale series, where a player can count the keypresses and "steps" as squares on a grid, in particular.
The other major class of flat ceiling is the false ceiling - a ceiling which has no need for structural strength beyond not collapsing under its own weight, and makes the place much cosier than keeping all that vaulting open to collect draughts.
I love these little animations, they remind me of Monty Python.
I usually visualise that the dungeon floors are not necessarily above each other.
love that little animation
I love the animations! they are so monty python esque!