Easy ZELDA-Style Dungeon Design for D&D
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2023
- Legend of Zelda games are a masterclass of puzzle-dungeon design! Here's how to use the principles of a Zelda dungeon in fantasy TTRPGs! ▶️ More below! ⏬
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How timely this video! Just last week I was working on an annex to my TTRPG project, about the generation of dungeons based on the dynamics of Zelda, mixed with Jaquaysing.
By the way, I would like to know if I could send you this material, I would love to receive your opinions about it. Regards! :)
One major difference is that in Zelda dungeons, you probably shouldn't rely on Perception Checks for puzzle stuff. If the Wizard says he wants to check the ceiling, he should just see the bomb flowers growing in various places, as well as the metal track riding along the top and passing into two different rooms. Him rolling a 9 shouldn't stop him from learning all that.
Absolutely. I don't think perception should ever be used to SEE something unless the thing is hidden!
@@BobWorldBuilder That is a tricky one in TTRPG, there is so much clutter in a vaguely believable world and it has to be there so the players can have fun throwing that half empty beer tankard you didn't describe but that could/should be there at the local mob boss. But there is a huge difference between seeing a collection of strange objects, books, plants, structures that set the tone of the space and identifying this specific one(s) could be used or important the first time you see it. And if the DM always describes only everything that is meant to be important it makes it too easy to meta game for the players, and less fun for the DM - players can find solutions you didn't plan much easier if you don't beat them over the head with the 'official' solution. And describing the entire room full of clutter specifically kills the game pacing.
Perception/Investigation checks on the room in general can be a good way for the players to identify specific clues to the mystery or tools to the puzzle more easily and early - shouldn't be the only way though. So for instance long before you get the Hookshot in Ocarina of Time I recall seeing many objects that would turn out to be hookshot capable targets, spent some time trying to figure out why they should be there (but of course failed lacking the tool). But once the tool was there I was prepared to go back and try it on 'em. BUT even if I hadn't noticed in advance just by getting the tool you go through a rather effective tutorial on how to use it as part of that experience.
As always its finding the right mix that works for your group - but if the players want to solve puzzles and only solve puzzles you can just go here is the physical prop, a page from one of those Mensa style lateral thinking puzzle books etc - no role-play requirements, or forced limitations based on their character. Right up to the other extreme - perhaps they really want to roleplay their way through it and solve it with only the tools their half blind drunk Captain Sparrow style character can know. So while you will have to give them enough threads to pull on, and eventually let them take a minor success just for hanging around long enough to notice something else to pull on they don't necessarily get everything upfront.
Yeah maybe a good perception role would allow you to find something more hidden or more effective but the standard solution shouldnt be locked behind dice rolls
This doesn't happen in OSR because there is no perception rolls, you just ask what is in the celling and you see what is there.
@@Flopsi99 I was thinking that, too, but for puzzles, it's usually best to assume the players will not think of whatever you think is the most obvious solution.
One mechanic that some Zelda games, and a few other games like Sly Cooper, use is the +1 mechanic. You start simple; show them how the door opens by showing them the baseline puzzle. Then you do it again by adding more complexity; it’s the same puzzle, but now the mechanism is down the hall. Another room later, it’s timed (and a combat breaks out), the next room, it’s timed, has a barrier that requires circumventing, and a second lever is required with a new type of puzzle.
Darksiders does that as well, it's pretty cool.
Miyamoto design philosophy-great idea to use it in TTRPGs!
GameMaker's Toolkit has a series of videos named Boss Keys where they analize all Zelda Dungeons. They are very useful for dungeon and puzzle design, I even used it as inspiratiom for my final uni project where I created new ttrpg rules for having more narrative or puzzle driven sessions :)
GMTK is awesome. One of the few channels I watch every video; same with BWB.
I came to say this. Boss Keys is a great analysis of Zelda and Metroid game design
My first instinct was to also direct to GMTK videos.
Whenever I see someone on Reddit indicate they're wanting to run a Zelda inspired game I tend to point them in that direction. Because the dungeon design is probably far more important than the system for getting the Zelda feel right.
Bob even used Mark's terminology: Puzzle Box, Lock & Key, and Gauntlet. I wish Bob cited GMTK, though, 'cause that's not a coincidence.
Bob, I didn't think I could love you more then I could...Then you drop a video like this and proved me wrong, my love has only grown
An underrated Zelda game to take inspiration from re: TTRPGs would be Four Swords Adventures! In that game, the player(s) control 4 separate Links. Some puzzles require them to work cooperatively and actually use their strength of numbers to solve them, such as pulling two levers across a large chasm at the same time, hitting a switch and immediately entering the door it opened before it shuts a second later, or positioning in such a way to hit an enemy that teleports in a specific pattern.
Nice!
You could have a shaman/priest who appears to Misty Step around the temple. But he always appears on the cult sigils on the floor. In time the party can place themselves at the sigils ready for him to appear and they strike!
This actually came at a perfect time, I'm literally designing a Zelda-inspired campaign world right now
Updates?
I’ve been working on one of my own for many years now, and I always like seeing what other people do in the space!
Same
Simple puzzles and lots of flavor help a lot. The hard part is to convey it without having to yap for minutes.
True! That's another way using the music helps by capturing the feel without needing as much verbal description. Of course you can always try "it's like ___ from Zelda" haha
This is a great video. The only way to improve it would've been to open with Bob's impression of Navi the Fairy by leaning into the camera and going "Hey! Listen!"
Oh man!! Missed opportunity xD
This would have been perfect 😂
What a timely video given i am holding a session 0 for a Zelda game this weekend
Thanks Bob! I’ve been playing Tears of the Kingdom this week, and your analysis is on point.
I primarily DM for my kids, and we also love Zelda games… so I will be making a Zelda soundboard for our game this weekend.
Tears of the kingdom gives soooo much agency, its stupefying, there's like 15+ different ways you can get past an obstacle, like obviously they put sticks on the ground nearby and a lit torch 15m away for you to carry fire across and there's an unlit torch next to the locked door, but what if i just used a sidekick superpower to summon lightning at the unlit torch, *zelda puzzle sound fanfares*
What a topical video! While we're on the topic of Zelda and DND, NES Zelda games have kinda non-linear solutions to *some* dungeons. For example, if you have bombs, there are some dungeons where you can blow up walls to bypass rooms needing keys. You still need to find a way to the boss and retrieve the triforce piece, but non-linearity as a concept in Zelda existed back in the good ol' days.
Yup!
You can actually bomb into the boss room in the third dungeon (with the awkward map design😅)
Very nice concise video! I totally agree with you that things need to be kept simple when making a Zelda dungeon.
I went through this same process of breaking down "what is a Zelda Dungeon?" awhile back xD
And in the end the simpler the better.
I gave the part a magic key (that was also a sword) that has 3 charges. And you can spend a charge to open certain doors in the dungeon. There are places where the players can rest and regain charges but doing so resets all of the orginally unlocked doors. (Lil sprinkle of darksouls in there). But it's worked a treat!
I love some of your ideas here. The water level thing is something I really struggled with working out before
Thanks! And that's a great idea for handling the ol' universal dungeon key!
@@BobWorldBuilder Thank you for all of your fantastic videos! And I hope you get to enjoy the latest Zelda game :3
Might I add that you missed 3 other major components that are often found in Zelda dungeons; the map to give players the layout of the dungeon, the compass to automatically locate all the chests and the boss, and the dungeon treasure that is usually the key to defeating the dungeon; like the bow for the for the forest temple, the megaton hammer for the fire temple, and the longshot in the water temple from the legend of zelda the ocarina of time just to name a few.
You're not wrong haha, I do like the idea of the weapon needed to defeat the boss potentially being in the same dungeon.
He did address the dungeon item, though not directly. They are metaphorical keys, since they are required to progress. They are sometimes ALSO the thing you are going to the dungeon to get, making them part of the fetch quests.
Memory tells me that some of those dungeon items are more useful than others. There are some that really feel they are only there to beat the dungeon boss. Whereas some of the early ones really give you a boost. Fairy Slingshot from the Great Deku Tree being a good one. Some the the elemental arrows felt less useful, but I might be mis-remembering.
Good stuff! Those dungeons are great inspiration for how to incorporate puzzles into our dungeons in a more interesting way than just "you enter a room. there's a puzzle."
Hahah, then the party either solves it immediately, or they haven't figured it out 1 hr later xD
Great video! Though there's one aspect of Zelda dungeons you didn't mention, that I was hoping to hear more about. The key items. Having half of the dungeon inaccessible until you find the key item is the one part of Zelda dungeons I've been struggling the most with, conceptually. That and consumable keys.
(For a while now I've been contemplating converting a bunch of Zelda dungeons to D&D, since I have a lot of players that are long-time fans of the franchise.)
Ocarina of Time is one of the greatest Zelda games of all time. 10/10 Bob!
I haven't played a single Zelda game to completion, but this video is still filled with awesome ideas as usual! I don't mind giving my players a sort cutscene from another part of the dungeon after they solve a puzzle or activate some mechanism.
It's been a very long time since I have too xD I'm still not sure how I feel about the cutscene approach though
I recommend The Minish Cap for the GBA. Short, easy to play, and a great demonstration zelda's overall design
I love the cut screen method! Fits really well with games like Call of Cthulu too! I like to give a hint at what the opposing faction is doing as a cliffhanger! It's a great mechanic shows use so why not include it in our games? 😃
When I ran my first mini campaign. one of my players pointed out to me that they were basically in the Bottom of the Well from Ocarina of Time.. Because I had given them the Lantern of Revealing and the final floor was full of illusionary walls and horrible undead and abberation monstrosities. Turns out you really do add the thing you like to your games, whether you know it or not ^^
Bob mentioned briefly in the end, but a video on Zelda's boss design would be nice.
I found out that "video game" style fights for bosses work really well in TTRPGs, Nothing is so frustrating for GMs or Players as a villain that was built for many sessions to be just a big bag of hit points when you finally fight the dude.
I experimented with multiple phases, weak points and what I can "buffing minions" a couple of times and they always been a hit. Would be awesome to see Bob's take on this.
Also check out GiffyGlyphs Monster Maker!
I ran a one-shot a couple years back and used the Zelda secret found sound, and the battle victory from one of the Dragon Quest games. Players loved it. Doing this in a one-shot was fun, but I can see it getting old fast in a campaign.
Yeah like anything else, if it comes up every single session, it would wear off pretty quick!
"Not saving the great stuff for later" may be the best advice out there for dungeon masters - I can't count the times DMs told me - It is a pity the game fizzled out, I had all this great stuff waiting for you after level 15....
For 3D puzzles - not for everyone - I've made a couple of puzzle boxes for my group. Usually a longer form thing, not a puzzle to exit a dungeon, but to solve a puzzle to get a clue or a magic item. It is time consuming but if you like making things for your party I can recommend it.
My goto battle music is the final fantasy 6 battle theme. This gets the entire table hyped up to eleven! Music has such a big role, especially when playing online.
oh yeah who woudnt be hyped by that, when i get to GM a session, i will also use FF music XD
I like to use gameboy pokemon music hah
I think more giant monsters in DND should have weak points. You shouldn't be able to kill a giant dragon by hitting its toes
100%!
This has my brain churning.
It turns such encounters into timed puzzles that are combat themed.
You can't really make the giant monsters with weak points "standard" because then the players are going to have to struggle against metagaming once they know about the monsters. Though you could make weak point generating tables and such. Good for the BBEGs (bosses) of the adventure/campaign but not so much for just "generic big monster" in a dungeon or random encounter table.
I wonder if it could solve the action economy problems that lair and legendary actions also attempt to solve. The PCs can't defeat the boss in one round until they have figured out what the weak points are. Likewise, the boss doesn't have to be SO dangerous that it's likely to TPK if the PCs don't take it out quickly.
You would have to telegraph to the player that "this fight is different". Games do it by things like boss music and cutscenes 8) so things in that direction could work. You would need to make the first uses with any particular set of players SUPER obvious to avoid frustration.
Personally, I would want the "weak points" to be something outside of normal combat mechanics. However, since those are the things coming to mind 8) combat weak points should just have their own AC (because thinking in DND terms), since DND doesn't have build in called shot rules, and should just need to be hit a specific number of times (once per PC? doesn't have to be hit by all of them, just that number of times). Maybe there are several weak points and you have to spread out the damage some (like Shadow of the Colossus)? Sequential weak points?
Can also put weak points into horde encounters in the form of leaders. You don't have to kill the dozens of kobolds, just take out the leaders, who happen to lead from the front 8), and the rest will scatter.
The dragon? TERRRIFIED of rust monsters, or crabs, or omelets, or fire.
seriously, my brain is just dancing with ideas.
I coin a term! GM sniping. It's like nerd sniping but with less math 8)
I love this idea for a boss fight. Needs some thought to make it work though.
In DoIP I had the dragon skeleton awaken in the tomb and it was impervious to any attacks save the dragon slayer sword which killed it in one hit. The fighter was pretty pleased with himself for that one!
Smaug
First, I love these videos. They give me such great ideas. Second, a boss fight that operates like a video game can be good but I would warn not to use it too frequently. The players will try and exploit the moment/encounter and the end of each battle/scenario could end with a “oh, is that it?!?” But don’t get me wrong, sometimes that is fun, sometimes.
I was born in 89 and I urge you to play A Link To The Past. It is brilliant. I still want to play the original
5:45 "It wasn't until 3D came along with Ocarina of Time that dungeon puzzles seemed to explode in complexity".
I largely agree with this video, but as a big fan of Zelda, I absolutely must point out that the explosion of complexity came with 1993's Link's Awakening on the Game Boy, which gave the first real non-linear dungeons, and the Eagle's Tower had a puzzle involving moving vertically through multiple levels and ultimately collapsing part of the dungeon and reforming its layout.
While later Zelda games may have been technically more complex, I think Link's Awakening was one of the most experimental Zeldas ever when it came to dungeons. I'm sure CZcamsr Boss Keys will have gone into this more.
Thanks for these tips!
1. Music
2. Theme. Fairy Tail.
3. Linear or non-linear dungeons.
4. puzzles. Simplicity.
5. Keys (literal keys or bits of info) instead of enemy gauntlets.
6. Central room and boss room
7. Get the THING!
I was just thinking about this the other day! Excited to see your take on it.
I appreciate your enthusiasm! Hope you like it
Dungeons with changing environments, and items which facilitate greater access in a dungeon are great Zelda dungeon hallmarks! I think the advice to err on the side of simplicity is great advice!
Wow being a 90s kid I never realized my dm style until you made this video
Extremely helpful breakdown! I'm writing a Zelda themed campaign and I've been scratching my head about how to make dungeons interesting but not TOO difficult. This has got my gears turning
CZcams did allow the sound bite ! Nice dude
The abnormally large key thing could also be a way to discourage picking the lock ("The pins are too big and heavy for your lockpicks to move, but the lock itself is too small for anything else"). Or, you could take the Skyward Sword approach ("The lock is abnormally shaped, you can't figure out where the pins are or how to pick it. You can't even fathom what kind of key would go to this door", obviously the key would be some sort of treasure found somewhere in the dungeon, like a golden statue of a serpent.)
Just started playing Tears of the Kingdom with my boys, and I'm loving it! In all my 38+ years of TTRPGs, somehow it never occurred to me to build a Zelda-style dungeon. The shrines from BOTW really grabbed me, but I generally dislike using puzzles in-game. The dungeons, now, you've got my neurons simmering! Thanks for all you do, and I look forward to seeing more!
My favorite aspect of Zelda dungeons is the key that's an item. You enter the dungeon without being able to access certain areas, and then after defeating a miniboss, you gain an item that not only is awesome and gives you an edge in combat, but also allows you to unlock the rest of the dungeon. And it's usually a key weakness of the dungeon's boss as well.
Now Zelda boss battles... That's something I would love to implement in my games.
Grounded and practical advice. Thanks, Bob!
I love the Zelda games. There are fun puzzles, exploration, and unique magic items and weapons.
As someone who’s been a Zelda fan for basically all of my life I just want add that with the more recent titles each are such incredibly well designed sandboxes, so much freedom in these games that you can face the final boss whenever you want. You the player are given a series of tools to solve any problem the game throws at you which I’ve hardly seen captured in ttrpgs except the in OSR and certain old school modules. Even the more linear aspects of BotW and TotK still have a bit of leeway for creativity so the idea of a Zelda dungeon is definitely changing.
As a DM you also need to think about how to cope with player abilities/spells that could wreck your planned puzzles.
Knock, Fly, Misty Step, etc could all have unexpected consequences. Could be easier to set up this style of dungeon puzzle for low level PCs.
Been looking for this kind of video; thanks Bob!
Awesome! Hope you like it
totally agree with thematic dungeons. unless it's the type of game where any encounter can be put in any location, the puzzles, hazards, and foes should match the scenery and one another.
In tabletop games I play in, many times my friends or I will, upon acquiring loot, sing, "You got the thiiiing~!" to the tune of the rising notes of the Zelda item-get song.
Glad you referenced and credited Mark Brown's Boss Keys but I was kinda hoping for a verbal recommendation. He deserves it. The Boss Keys series is awesome.
I just started using Zelda dungeon mechanics in my groups games, it really helps me judge if a dungeon will be fun or a slog before we start playing. These are some great tips, super useful and not vague like most dungeon tips can be. Thanks Bob!
Something to add for a Zelda dungeon is a key item that changes the nature of the dungeon. For about the first half of the dungeon, there should be something frustrating or that complete blocks the party from getting far such as enemies that are resistant (or maybe even immune) to all attacks the party has or straight up invisible stuff. Then the key item makes those issues trivial, such as a weapon that the enemies are weak to or an item that lets the party see said invisible stuff. That second half should be when players feel stronger and begin to steamroll things. (This is also a good chance to force players to create interesting decisions. If there is only one key item, it becomes a question of who gets to use the item in situations like combat.) Also, take a page from Breath of the Wild & Tears of the Kingdom: if players come up with a different but reasonable solution to the puzzle, let it work. BotW was praised for letting a player skip getting some needed metal boxes by letting them complete an electric arc with their metal weapons.
I would love a series on how to flavor your games with tone and atmosphere. That can be used in any system.
A Link to the Past. The best Zelda, my favorite Zelda. Such a great game. I recommend everyone who loves Zelda to play that one.
Zelda style dungeons are fun to use once-in-a-while.
I remember in my one really long campaign that went from 1-20 and spanned 2 editions there were some Zeldaesque dungeons. The player characters died, went to hell, and had to escape. While there they had to go through a series of 5 dungeons.
Each dungeon gave them a key to combine to open the final gate to get out of hell, but not before facing the final boss of hell.
5:45 there is a good GMTK series called "Boss Keys" that gives a deep dive into the design of the locks and keys flow in zelda dungeons
Thank you! When he mentioned the dungeon types (Puzzle Box, Lock and Key, and Gauntlet) I was expecting him to mention the Boss Key series.
I use sound tale. It's awesome. Has tons of ambiance and sound effects.
Nice!
A good example of the key method is The Sunless Citadel!
I'm running it for my dad right now and he was so pumped when the kobold queen offered him a key to a room that's almost impossible to get into at the start of the dungeon!
Point Crawl works for me and my players. No fussy mapping, players can see immediately what connects to where. Puzzle locks are easy to describe too.
loved this video (not that I don't love them all)... It's funny because I sort of missed the Zelda boat growing up... I was a sega and n64 kid, and didn't really get into nintendo until I was a little older (other than pokemon on gameboy)... but I think videos like this are wonderful in general, because it's always fun to change things up and try to bring in new themes or mechanics to make the play sessions fun, and this adaptation idea can be extrapolated out to other things that maybe aren't associated as much with fantasy lore as well (a dream sequence or a magic area that is thematically/aesthetically different help break up play). I'd take tons more videos where you talk about integrating other games into rpgs, even if they aren't a game with literal dungeons (where's my Bioshock dungeon lol)
I think I got into Zelda games simply because I liked Link's look in Smash Bros 64 haha, and yep this was a fun case study! I might do one for Elder Scrolls in the future
@@BobWorldBuilder oh 100% my friends and I would play smash all the time, and I'm pretty sure that was the only way I knew anything about him, and I remember being like, "wait, I thought his name was Zelda?" lol
I think one thing that would work in a tabletop context that Zelda and very few other games do is for halfway through the dungeon, have the party acquire a magic item that changes the context of a bunch of things in the dungeon. And then if it's the beyblade in Twilight Princess, is completely useless outside of that dungeon. Suddenly the party acquires the boots of lava walking, allowing them to walk over the lava that had previously been blocking some of their routes, or gravity's hourglass, which when flipped reverses gravity, etc. Just... You know, you need to account for the fact the party consists of more than a single elf fighter unless you're running a duet. So unless you want the party to be forced to split, you probably should give them as many boots of lava walking as party members. Yes, ultimately that sort of thing is just a lock and key, just with the key working on multiple locks, but it's a _really cool_ lock and key.
How much you show the players - Not necessarily practical for online groups, but... There's nothing wrong with having players mapping the dungeon themselves as they navigate it, and for the mapper especially this might get them surprisingly intimately familiar with your dungeon. I recall reading about someone running a dungeon based on a tesseract design - a 4 dimensional cube - and while the GM always needed to look at their notes to figure out where the players emerged, by the end of the dungeon run one of the players had internalized the layout of the dungeon enough that they were able to just go "If we go x, y, z that should get us back to the entrance?" to which the GM had to check over their notes before confirming that after following that route they did indeed get to the entrance.
Perfect time to mention "reclaim the wild" a Zelda tabletop game. Made by fans for fans.
Using a d6 system, so it's probably easier to get into for newcomers to tabletops
Awesome video Bob Thanks 🙏
I’m introducing a boy to ttrpgs and dungeons are one of the easier ways to start as a dm, he’ll probably be playing at school with his friends. So this is a great way to explain dungeons
Also Zelda is iconic and has a lot of material you could adapt.
You can also take advantage of the fact that there are multiple party members. If one pulls the switch, it’s not a stretch to think another party member is close enough to see the door open in many cases.
Still can't get used to Bob the Haircutter
The zelda style of dungeon can suit theatre of the mind as it runs room to room in sequence making it easy as a dm to manage.
Each room is a contained event.
It could be fun to do a dungeon more puzzle based.
One other thing that I think of when I think of Zelda style dungeons is a paradigm-shifting item. The bow that lets you hit switches from further away. The hookshot that lets you reach far away places you couldn't before. That kind of item would be tricky to implement in a TTRPG setting, especially for parties instead of individual adventurers, but it would really sell the link (pun intended).
Sound cues are very important in so many videogames, and it makes sense to use music and sound at the table. Sure, you can just tell the players they hear a sound, or imitate it poorly on your own. But tech makes it so easy now that it can really help engage the players if you use unique sounds and give them specific meanings or tie them to certain places, objects, monsters, or characters. Myst was another excellent game, where sound was often itself the puzzle, or the key to solving it. In games, as in the real world, it should pay to listen. Engage the senses!
Great video! I’d love to see a video specifically on how to incorporate BotW and TotK puzzle styled dungeons into D&D, maybe giving some actual examples of the best ones and how to convert them into a D&D puzzle
"The bookcase slides gently aside, and creeping up the dimly lit stairwell you hear the faint notes of a strangely familiar song: 'A-Down-Up; A-Down-Up...'"
You could have a mcguffin device that lights up when a obstacle (either a door or puzzle) is passed, this could also be used to foreshadow how many tasks they need to complete to get to the room where the mcguffin is place/used/turns into the overlord/etc. Bonus if your playing face to face and you could make a prop with some wireless lighting. However I wouldn't use this for every dungeon, you gotta change it up to keep things fresh!
7:16 It's not an audio cue, but I've got a visual one. Taking inspiration from Portal, have literal lines of some kind-- cables, magic runes, etc., that visually connect two things. When you interact with the key, make the line change-- red to blue or invisible to glowing, for example. To make it harder than just "follow the line," try obscuring it with debris so as to only hint at where it leads, or put an encounter in a previously clear room along that line to surprise them while they follow it back.
Alternatively, use a recurring visual motif to mentally link a puzzle and its key without directly connecting them. As a simple example I plan to run similar to what BwB touched on at 8:16, a Sun/Moon temple. Some doors have open eyed faces and some doors have closed eyes. You find an item that toggles the "time" in the temple, visually shifting between day and night. Guess which doors open when?
Obviously you mean "cue," but yeah, I'm not a fan of an audio cue. If it's ongoing, it becomes a fire alarm; if it's over quickly, it's either not immersive or it's not informative. There should definitely be a static change, even if it's not magical in nature.
@@461weavile Nice catch re: queue/cue-- can't believe I did that, lol. I work with chat queues, so I think my brain just auto-filled that spelling.
I've always loved the idea of using music and sound to make things more fun. Whenever my group would defeat all the monsters in a given area, we would make the battle victory sound from Final Fantasy VII
thank you for easy puzzle/contraption configurations! i haven't played any zelda dungeons, so i am absolutely clueless on how to make interactive dungeons that aren't just "mess around with this room/clue until you figure it out". Those are fun, but not an entire dungeon of them.
Excellent video to come back to. I had an idea to combine elements of Bottle Grotto (Link's Awakening), Skull Woods (Link to the Past), and the forest temple (Ocarina of Time).
Regarding fetch quests: add 1 or 2 iconic magic items in each dungeon for your players to use in future adventures. Ie hook shot, hammer, cape
Great video, excellent interpretation. All dungeon should be like this. The memory issue.... They are mapping for a reason, and maps ALWAYS have side notes ;)
The branching dungeon with the main hub is what I feel is the core of zelda dungeons.
You gain keys to go to different parts of the dungeon and do something different in the hub.
You also get a key item and boss key
And the boss room which you use the key item to defeat
Using video games as inspiration for my dungeons? Why haven't I thought about that before?! Back in the 80s, there was a text-based RPG for PC called King's Quest that I'm definitely going to use for dungeon inspiration when I have very little prep time. (And, certainly, as a cautionary tale for creating extremely complex dungeons entirely in the theater of the mind. 😆)
I hated the water dungeon in ocarina, had no idea what I was doing until I got a guide, so even with a 3d environment it's not easy. Nice tips and seed ideas though.
This was great.
If I may suggest material for a sequel to this video, you should check out Soul Reaver 1&2.
1 has a similar design philosophy to Zelda, but with reality warping mechanics and extra, optional dungeons and areas where you can get new spells and upgrades to play with.
And while 2 (due to some combination of time and budget constraints) has a much narrower scope than 1, it makes up for it with beautiful themed dungeons.
Well, I'll be d*****, so good old Matt Mercer voiced Ganon; what will they think of next?
He's everywhere!
I'm literally building the first campaign for my kids and they love zelda so this video timing was perfect. I do have a mechanical question for your example (which is in every zelda game). If there's a big boss with an eye that has to be shot 3 times. How do you handle that mechanically? My first thought is the boss has 15 AC and they call a shot to the eye and its a DC 20. I'm not sure if that's exciting for players though.
My players made the 'You found a ____" sound effects long before one of them put it on their phone. Every time a magic sword is found someone says "It's dangerous to go alone. Take this."
If all of this sounds good, I really strongly recommend checking out Tomb of Annihilation. The final megadungeon is a phenomenal example of dungeon design that plays very much like a Zelda dungeon. The puzzles and traps are generally not hidden, the Tomb allows players to choose their pace and path in terms of how much they want to treasure hunt vs. get straight through to the end, and isn't much of a combat gauntlet.
These do sound like good ideas, but I've never played Legend of Zelda. I'll have more input if you decide to talk about incorporating Oregon Trail (game) ideas...
theres a great video from game design channel game makers toolkit called boss keys analysing the dungeon design of all the zelda games which i wholeheartedly recommend
Ive been trying to figure out how to put the twisting hallways from the forest temple into a game
Now I'm just imagining the rolling hallway scene from Inception xD
I was just waiting to see some material from boss keys from gmtk the zelda dungeon series is good for D/GMs to watch
As a life-long Zelda fan, and die hard player of both Zelda and D&D, I'll leave this bit of advice: cater this to your audience.
Some of the dungeon mechanics do not directly translate over to D&D or other TTRPGs (except for maybe fan made Zelda systems) in a narrative way, believe me I've tried! Should this discourage you? Not at all!
Just remember that traps and puzzles need to make sense for the one who made them. A "hero's test" style dungeon like the Tower of the Gods is great for throwing mechanical tests at your party (because that is why it's there) but a BBEG labyrinth akin to Ganon's Castle should make sense as to why there are puzzles, and an "easy mode" for the owner.
With all that said: if you're playing with a lot of narratively driven folks, use these designs (like the all in thematic dungeons) to enhance your stories! If you're playing with folks who just like to flip switches and levers, apply the dungeon mechanics to your games!
Drivethru rpg has some Zelda temples for sale. And they are a great start :)
For 3D dungeons I've been making isometric maps for Foundry with the grape_juice module for years. Now I'm transiting to analog play, I'm picking up papercraft assets and popup scenes and terrain. My goal is to have quick setup and minimal storage. It's been easier to pick up than I would have imagined.
When you mention papercraft assets, are these things you make yourself, or purchase from somewhere?
If you use Zelda locks and keys to manage progress through the dungeon, it helps to make it obvious which key goes where:
Heavy iron key > heavy iron lock
elaborate golden key > elaborate golden lock
That way, when the PCs find the lock, they will know what key they are looking for, and vise versa. U
... did bob just design the ancient cistern from skyward sword? A water dungeon with a moving platform on the central column?
Haven't played Skyward Sword, but the water level change has been in a bunch of Zelda games lol xD
Aarakockra, Owlin, and Fairy, or a 3rd level spell, turn elevation challenges trivial, and if there’s a water column, a water genasi, aquatic elf, triton, or 3rd level ritual spell render that trivial. Link is basically an elf fighter, so unless you’re cutting out a lot of ancestries and classes, good luck making a puzzle dungeon in D&D which isn’t trivialized or given up on for being ‘impossible’. It’s Disneyland.
Protip: make your campaign based on the player characters and their designs and decisions.
"If your players can recognize Zelda music, use that to your advantage."
:: Character goes to open a large chest ::
"Tah-dah-dah-DAAAH! You found something alright! It expresses glee as it holds you high in the air with it's pseudopod."
Hey Bob World Builder! I was wondering what are some good RPG for Tactical or army Combat that you know? I'm wanting to implement an army combat event for one of my DND Sessions but not sure how to implement or what resources would help. Thanks in Advance!
Fantastic video! Was really curious how you might handle mapping verticality in a Zelda dungeon? They often have lots of staircases, holes in the ground leading to other levels, rising/falling water puzzles, etc. They seem to work best in genuinely 3D environments, but even ALttP and other 2D games have a lot of these elements. How would you go about mapping them?
Also, lots of Zelda maps reveal dungeons one room at a time to players until they eventually find the dungeon map, revealing the rough layout of the whole area. Any idea on how you'd mimic something like that? Thanks!
Never played Zelda, but I reckon a lot of the puzzles in Tomb Raider would work too
This would be incredible to implement in dnd campaigns, but im not going to look up the sound on youtube and take 5 minutes to find it for one nostalgic sound... I recommend using a sound board, but I have no idea what sound boards are out there. Do you recommend one?
Would love to see you do a collab with Mark Brown from GMTK on crossing video game design with TTRPG design!
That assumes players will hit that gem to rise the water level, if they want to reach that door they can cast fly, use grappling hooks, chuck the halfling, tons of solutions. D&D gives players way too many tools, what I say is to think of the problem but not the solution, your players can handle it. When you try to make puzzles with too specific a solution, you either end up having your players trivializing it with some creative ability use or making it too frustrating for being too specific, finding that middle of the road good spot is really hard so I recommend just giving them freedom to solve it their way.
"symmetrical room" 😂 totally!
*team sees pressure plate*
"I volunteer myself as tribute, to stand here on the pressure plate, whilst my comrades forge ahead. Not even death will sway my corpse from abandoning my post on the pressure plate. If fate wills it so, speak of me in legendary tales to come: _some say that he is still standing on that pressure plate to this day_ "
Old school zelda games: operate the lever to add the water to raise the platform to access the new room
Tears of the kingdom: get under the room and use Ascend
So many people talk about this subject but don't include graphics. I never played the game so I NEED those graphics to understand what you are trying to say.
Puzzle dungeons are tricky. Some players (like me!) enjoy them, while others really don't. I would make sure that there is an alternate path the party can take if they get completely stuck, or just aren't into it. Like, maybe solving the puzzle will let them bypass a dangerous monster, but they can always just fight it instead.
Don’t like the idea of the fetch-quest maguffins? Invert it with the Zelda II method!
The world is threatened, and the apocalypse is nigh (maybe the Demon King is returning). The only way to save the world is with a miracle. There’s an ancient artifact in a long lost temple that can grant any Wish (per the spell). It is protected by an impenetrable magical barrier. The only way through is to place X magical artifacts (like, six ancient crystals) in special receivers deep within the other temples scattered throughout the world. Flavor each dungeon, add fun NPCs in nearby towns that can give hints and help, and whabam, there’s a full campaign.