A Zelda Dungeon Maker - Would it Work?
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- čas přidán 14. 10. 2022
- Would a Zelda Dungeon Maker work? Let's find out!
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Have a great weekend everyone! Feel free to share your thoughts, ideas and suggestions about a hypothetical Zelda Dungeon Maker!
Yeah!
Well, there kind of is a zelda dungeon maker. you can build your own zelda game with the pixel game maker mv by kadokawa.
the stairs connected starting with closest first then next closest and so on
that was my biggest complaint about that system
but also if your looking for the best dungeon maker, minecraft can't be beat
A super boss gauntlet with every room containing a random boss from across the franchise.
Love this! A lot of people have thought about this idea but you went and created a level designer as a concept. I'd love to see your code if you would make that available. I knew about the door problem. The solution I came up with was to make sure the rooms were modular in size so 1x1, 2x1, 3x4, whatever but the doors must always be centered in their block. Doors without connecting doors could be traps like the doors that flatten the player in Luigi's Mansion (I think). Another possibility would be a requirement that if you place a door a new room attached to the other side is automatically spawned. I think there are a few smart ways to make it work intuitively. Spelunky is a good source for how to layer randomness that isn't obvious to the player and creates lots of interesting interactions.
Here's an idea for the "place your doors anywhere" thing you said: when you have a room next to it, a (ghost) door will appear in the spot adjacent to where you placed the door in the previous room.
I was gonna suggest the same ideia, it's a nice ideia imo
Oh so you can choose if you want to keep the door or not
I had a similar thought as far as connecting doorways:
Having some kind of "snap" feature where doorways automatically connect in some way. The thought I had was to either do what you suggested and let there be a somewhat translucent "ghost" doorway to signal if a nearby room has a doorway there, and no matter where you're looking at it, you can still chain the doorways together by either letting the door snap to the nearby room or have the room snap to the doorway ("locking" either the door or room in place) so everything isn't in a complete grid. It's hard to describe what I have in my head but basically to not be constricted to having rooms connect and look like a D-pad all the time and have the connections be pyramid shaped, is the best I can describe it. Granted the idea I have in my head also relies on the general map not being restricted to only be connected in set aligned spots like the Link's Awakening Dungeon Editor. Still of course have it be that you have a certain amount of space to work with per floor, but it would allow different variety in the shapes of the room so they aren't all just complete squares or rectangles, at the very least "circular" rooms should be allowed as far as a "room template", possibly also have triangles but I'm not sure, but it would at least help it feel like not everything is in a block grid if you don't want to make it that way. And actually the next point of chain link triggers would be a good way to connect them. Just for doorways have it be automatic and have an option pop up of if you want to align the doors to each other and choose whether or not to move the room, the "lock" option I mentioned before.
I don't see why the doors need to physically match up, at all. Just link two different doors, or more than two for a puzzle.
@@tkc1129 It's mostly so it can be easy on & for coding purposes for any room scrolling. Plus it would feel disorienting if you entered a room from the top right and came out the bottom right. Granted you could still use that for puzzles where it's the "go in one but come back out the other", but as far as room transition it's so people don't immediately get lost going from room to room. At least in a "normally built" dungeon.
I didn't think it was possible but you've convinced me.
I knew it was possible. I don't think it could be done in a player friendly way. How wrong was I?
One game I like is Fortnite. In It’s creative mode you can do literally anything and it’s super user friendly
@@slayr4170 uhm
@@tumultuousv ?
Another cool thing that would be implemented in this hypothetical game is that the editor gets to choose how many hearts or items (hookshot, bow, flippers, power glove, etc.) the player has before starting.
Another thing is that there could be a series of dungeons like the worlds in Mario maker, and the items you get in a dungeon carry over to the next
Here’s a thought: what if instead of making a Zelda Maker just a non-canon spin-off, you instead use it to explain *why* some of the dungeons exist in the Zelda series. You could play as Sheikah architects and mages constructing and testing dungeons designed to test future incarnations of Link. It would still probably be non-canon, but at least there would be a lore explanation for the game.
Nintendo didn't object to Tunic which was clearly a non-brand Legend of Zelda since it was recently released on Switch. So it would be easy to do a non-canon dungeon editor for Legends of the Forest with an elf wearing a green tunic. Then have mod support for different tilesets where someone else releases a Zelda tileset mod to turn it back into Legend of Zelda thereby freeing MonsterMaze from any liability of copyrighted material.
zelda dungeon architect, now that'd be rad.
Curious is the trap-maker's art... his efficacy unwitnessed by his own eyes.
Makes no sense
If anyone is interested, there is a "Zelda maker" out there that has existed since the early 2000s, called Zelda Classic. It may not be the most user-friendly program to pick up, but once you learn what you can do the possibilities are nearly endless.
I was looking to see if anyone else here knew about ZC. I've played with it on-and-off for years and while it's pretty clunky at times, it a lot of the stuff covered in this video is possible in some way through the quest editor's tools. If you just want to play some well-made Zelda 1 styled fan games with better graphics, you can. As a bonus, it's still in development by a small team to this very day, so many of the program's quirks are being streamlined with time.
A game I think could be looked at is Four Swords Adventures. That game's multi-player mechanics and the way that its puzzles are crafted in a 2D space legitimately amazed me.
As for styles, I would love to have bosses from the Original Zelda reimagined like Super Mario Maker did with its enemies.
I think Four Swords Adventures is also worth looking at in terms of equipping the player. It'd be much less hassle for everyone if the player could only have one item at a time, with the items being on pedestals and swapping new ones with older ones.
It'd be great if this hypothetical game brought back my boys Aquamentus and Digdogger.
ah yes FSA is so good please. I would play so much of that.
Aquamentus in the Minish Cap or Link Between Worlds style would be awesome
@@wolfetteplays8894 And don't forget, all of the NES Zelda bosses appeared in Oracle of Seasons with different appearances, different attack capabilities, and in most cases more involved strategies to defeat them. Given this precedent, it'd make sense that this would carry into other styles as well. There's also the possible intrigue that anything reimagined in the Minish Cap style could theoretically be expanded from that into Wind Waker style, considering that Minish Cap's graphics were Wind Waker-style graphics turned into a spriteset.
First off, MAD props to the visual stuff put in this video, it's all really clean. As a thing I'd love to see added to a Zelda Dungeon maker, I'd take the way Wallmasters and boss keys were handled in Spirit Tracks. Making you carry the giant key across the dungeon, limiting your options while enemies will beeline for the key to bring it back to where you took it from is a very fun way to shake up the dungeon, and could make it two whole experiences in one.
Bring back the SandWand and patrolling Phantoms(all versions) as well.
And maybe the Magnetic Gloves, and Rocs Feather.
@@shroobify DUDE I love Phantoms ! Having a dungeon split between a sneaking section, and then giving you a way to deal with them could be so cathartic
that could even just be a specificity of the style
like "oo you get to use the DS zelda games style" and its caracteristic is the key holding and you could probs even bring all of those fun mechanics from the DS games like with the grapplin hook mechanics or the ennemy possession
you could even get the special movement though i think some players would avoid the style entirely for that movement and combat
@@bastian3461 I think that would be the trickiest part, translating the DS games' quirks without forcing it to be touch-controlled, but I'd love things like the whip, the sand rod, the whirlwind, all of those
When doors are misaligned, the game could ask which room should take priority and auto-correct the door in the other room.
With an additional option to split the difference.
Exactly my thoughts
Or maybe when the first door is placed a second door gets automatically placed in the room the door leads to
Or, keeping things simple and visual without text pop-ups, just have the most recently placed room take priority. If you want it the other way around, just pick up the other room for a split second and put it back down again. If you have some complicated arrangement of rooms and can't get the priority the way you want it just by placing them in a certain order, you can always manually tweak one or two doors yourself.
The custom chamber maker of Portal 2 does exactly what you hypothesized for the "connecting puzzles" idea. However, the lines are visible to the player, too, so they'll already know "if I activate this switch, it will spawn this/open this", they just need to figure out HOW to do it.
Fun fact: There are (sort of) two unoficial ones already. One, Zelda Classic, is a meticuloous remake the NES Zelda and Link to the Past with a level edditor that lets you make entire games more-or-less from scratch, and Solarus, which started out as a Link to the Past re-make and has since morphed into an entire ARPG game-engine. Classic in particular still has wholly new games being released for it.
I messed with Zelda Classic a ton high school and it's definitely a lot to learn.
Those are old games,we can't do twilight princess dungeons or orcseina of time dungeons,more modern games because there is so much going on and each of those dungeons are dufferent
Nintendo's lawyers are already grabbing their briefcases as we speak....
This is actually super detailed and easy to understand! I would like many of the features you mentioned if a Zelda Maker were to be made, however I think there should still be a node based option similar to Game Builder Garage, for those that can understand it. Just make it an option in some "Advanced Settings" menu.
And as for the styles they could choose, I've had many ideas in the past. The Original Legend of Zelda, A Link to the Past, Minish Cap/Four Swords and A Link Between Worlds. Heck, they could have do Link's Awakening Remake.
Are you listening Nintendo?
If there would be a second option for the puzzle logic, there might as well be a third option to directly code in python.
The problem with multiple options is, that a voting system would privilege dungeons made with the advanced settings. An example of this is the Portal 2 editor, where most popular levels use parts that weren't originally in the game.
@@Papierkorb2292 A good level is a good level, it's just that people who are interested in making good levels are also interested in making their own custom stuff. That is why the most prominent portal maps don't just use ingame stuff as much. But because zelda maker would appeal to more people than the portal maker, which is pretty hard to use in comparison to something like mario maker, I think there would be enough people making good stuff with the base tools, it wouldn't just be how you describe.
Nintendo's lawyers are listening....
I could imagine coding and logic being handled in a similar way to the Little Big Planet games,where dragging and dropping connections is simple and intuitive but also offers a few additional options in a submenu. LBP2 added more complex logic tools like AND/OR gates and counters which were done with some clever use and combination of simplier objects in the first game. A system like that would allow simple actions to be made quickly and easily but still leave the door open for more complex contraptions and puzzles for those who want to delve deeper.
Definitely.
I was just going to comment that inspiration from LBP should be used! They could use something very similar to the selector tool in the popit where you can connect things such as a button and a door with a "wire".
Wow this is one of if not the highest effort video of yours and that's saying a lot. Also i thought a dungeon maker would be quite straightforward but you bring up good points regarding the challenges.
Sorry?
What about Life as a Bokoblin?
In its making of you can see how much of dedication and work he put into it.
@@louiseb3146 life as a bokoblin is my favourite Zelda video
Loved that Xenoblade 3 part. Definitely caught me off guard, but the amount of times I heard that playing through the game- 😂
I know, that was so funny! 🤣 I for sure have been enjoying Xenoblade chronicles 3! 🥰
HEAR THAT NOAH
its just crazy how much work you put into these videos. like the fact that you coded your own level editor, and those amazing animations at 12:04. looks like a lot of work and clean animation for just a small visual detail, like wow big respect. no clue how you do it so consistently but keep it up man
Wizard101's Castle magic and certain objects you can place in your castles have a very intuitive interface.
The pet crumbs that control pet behavior when you place them in a room are a pretty good example of how to tackle a Zelda Maker type of deal.
Absolutely loved this video. Pretty much all the ideas I’ve had for a Zelda Dungeon Maker were mentioned and expanded upon. The coding stuff and how it would fundamentally work as well had me really interested.
This is hands down the coolest Zelda idea I’ve ever heard
I remember trying to make my own Zelda on RPG Maker when I younger, with some ALTTP assets that were available at the time ! I’ve been hoping for an official Zelda Maker ever since.
I just remembered a mobile game called Badland that provided a good editor to make your own levels. You could set triggers, change the background and foreground, ect… Stuff I wished Mario Maker had !
Yes! I tried it too. The engine wasn't all that suitable for it (at least not the version I used way back when). You had to jump through a lot of hoops, especially to get the combat somewhat functional. I don't know about current day versions, but the older ones were clearly designed for turn-based combat. Not real time. But it still worked okay. I had lots of fun with it and tought me the basics of game design ^^
Search Zelda Classic. That think is a bonkers Zelda 1 engine!
There’s a game on steam called „super dungeon maker“ and I think it perfectly shows how a dungeon maker should work.
Mega man maker has a REALLY good design philosophy when it comes to conjoined rooms, basically theres a button on the edge of each screen that either separates or conjoins rooms, this could also be applied to zelda maker by making the rooms not created with a map menu (which would be kinda tedious) but allowed to instantly create rooms by placing tiles next to another room
Levels can just simply be switched with a small menu
"More locks than there are keys to open them" is actually potentially useful for good (if unforgiving) puzzles. There should be a reminder if you try to compile a level and there are fewer keys than there are locks or vice-versa. It should also be possible to have chests that are locked by keys, to have the Boss Key/Big Key required for certain doors or chests, or to have the Magic Key from the first game hidden somewhere in a dungeon.
It'd have to be limited to the original Zelda style and LttP. The trick would be allowing simplicity and complexity on a sliding scale.
True
OG Zelda, LttP, and Minish Cap 100%. Could even have PH, ST, or ALBW styles thrown in too
@@Navar4477 and the chunky GameBoy pixelart of LA/OoS/OoA too!
@@dracquiteur.4730 damn, and I love the oracle games too! How did I forget those lol
One suggestion for accessibility vs versatility: beginner friendly prefabs, with the option to customize things further with advanced components. It might also be fun to have the connections and logic be done with the wires you showed, and some kind of logic gates, similar to Little Big Planet's editor. They could be represented on top of the map with a toggleable layer. It would be useful to show adjacent rooms while in the editor. You could grey them out and turn the cursor into 👁️ or ✏️ when the cursor is over the room to indicate quickly switching to that room. It would also solve the problem of door placement, as you would easily be able to see where the doors are in another room, maybe even have a transparent red overlay with ⚠️🚪 on the UI layer where there are doors that don't connect. Change the cursor to 🔧 when you hover over it, and when you select opens a small menu with something like
🪄 autofix
🛠️ manual
📤 move
🗑️ delete
I enjoy UI design, even if I have a hard time with the tools available in most engines.
Great insights!
I've noticed a lot of the time, when Nintendo puts hints into their games, a lot of people choose to ignore them and complain about being stuck, like if a room had 2 blocks, the player tends to go somewhere else, and doesn't try to see if either block can be pushed.
I've noticed similar things when Zelda tubers do lets plays of Zelda games.
Zelda and Doom have trained me to push/interact every object in a room if it has a locked door. I will not proceed without my answers.
During let's plays I do at least understand it, since they are essentially multitasking. Playing, talking, trying to entertain the audience etc. But yeah, some details are more easily overlooked than others ^^
I've wanted a Zelda Dungeon Maker ever since Mario Maker dropped.
they did that in links awakening remake
@@nolabratteig988 yeah but it's not very complex and not a full game/ shareable
I've wanted one ever since I started thinking up LOZ style games that I wanted to make. (And that was long before Mario Maker.)
@@tumultuousv yeah but it's a great starting place.
Zelda Classic is a thing that has existed for a long, long time
I’d love a Zelda dungeon maker. We have seen it work with Mariomaker, I’m sure they can make it work with Zelda. As all ways, I love the video.
I think Link's Awakening's dungeon building system proves something like this could work, but it would definitely need a lot of tweaking to make as creative and fun as Super Mario Maker. If, for example, the game only gave you options to create within a set dungeon layout, it would completely ruin the concept. It's like if Super Mario Maker gave you levels which you could only add enemies to.
If Nintendo wanted a 'Zelda Dungeon Maker' to cultivate a vast community who makes different genres of levels like they do in Super Mario Maker, then the game would probably have to be more like a sandbox.
14:39 I have a couple of ideas: (Edit: Monster Maze went on to basically describe #1, just explained better)
1. Since it would be top-down anyway, maybe users could be given a tool to "wire" interactive elements together, and the editor UI would render those "wires" as lines, maybe aligned with the grid to improve readability. Even if elements can only interact if they're on the same floor, that wouldn't be an unfair restriction IMO to keep it simple and understandable.
2. Users could assign interactive elements to separate "channels," maybe indicated by numbers or memorable symbols from the series (sort of like Mario Maker's doors with the card suits, just player-assignable). Elements on the same "channel" would be able to interact. This is closer to how I see the system working "under the hood."
Either way I can completely see the interactions being pre-programmed. For the 2D Zelda games they seem pretty clearly defined: switches (of all kinds), pressure plates, and enemies are intuitively "triggers" while barred doors, traps, chests, and valuables make more sense as "reactions." All players need to do is link them together as desired. Sure this would be a bit more complicated than Mario Maker, but not too much; it's still far simpler than some other popular creative games out there (cough redstone cough) and fans are still eager to learn their systems. Besides, I think the fans calling for a Zelda Dungeon Maker would have no problem with the slight bump in complexity. It's hard to be a Zelda fan without a love of puzzle solving!
Alongside that, you still have good old fashioned locks and keys for those who don't want to mess with the systems described above. Enemies could carry items like in Mario Maker, including small/boss keys able to open their respective door types. In fact I'm pretty sure Mario Maker already had locks and keys, though only of one type.
Fantastic video. I've wanted Zelda Maker for a very long time. You did a great job summing up key design challenges, possible solutions, and the mouth-watering potential of the game being done right.
You have no right being this talented, you put in so much work and love in to your videos, trully someone to look up to.
I have been waiting for this one Monster Maze my guy. This is a genius idea. I got my popcorn ready to watch this man.🍿
Your video is SO freakin Beautifully done!! I’ve never played it myself but there’s a game on steam called “Super Dungeon Maker” that seems to do a pretty good job of being the same kind of thing you’re talking about here. Maybe worth looking at!
Man I love the amount of detail as well as the fluid animations! Yet again an amazing video!
I fell in love with the effort put in this video! Thanks alot
I really like how you've layed out the idea for a Zelda Dungeon maker concept.
10:18 What about a feature that automatically snaps the exits of two rooms together in the map editor, with the option to turn snapping on or off in the UI? That would let you do custom room designs, and if you have door snapping on it would automatically make sure that the rooms would connect properly.
11:58 Whit regards to puzzle Scenarios, what about an option which gives the dungeon creator the ability to give Link access to certain key items (Boomerang, Bombs, etc), at the start. This way, they can customize how complex they want each stage of the dungeon to be. How many, and which, key items for puzzle solving will the player have at the start? How many will they find in the dungeon? These are ideas that can really affect how complex the dungeon can be.
Maybe, for an easy dungeon you only need one or two items, but for a really hard dungeon the player needs to find eight or nine key items throughout, leading them to zigzag across the structure as they open up locks and keys. Make it so they can get items 'out of order' and that can turn the dungeon into a macro level puzzle box beyond just the room sized challenges.
...Yes I do watch GMTK, can you tell?
I can tell by your suggestions ^^
Since the LoZ: LA Remake dungeon maker was introduced, i literally thought Nintendo was going to straight up start working on the idea. But whether they did and gave up on it or didn't bother at all we'll never know unless we are told off it. But i always figured their train off thought was "Man, Mario Maker is getting a really good reception, the fans love it! Should we do Zelda next?" Like you mentioned, a Zelda Maker could end up being extremely complex depending on how much freedom we are given and the reception of LA's dungeon maker told Nintendo "this was too simplistic for our tastes", but Nintendo are wizards when it comes to this things and Mario Maker proves that, so i know they can give us the perfect Zelda Maker with enough time.
Maybe it's such a good idea they're saving it for the best moment to drop it. One can only hope.
Bruh. In addition to making a well covered topic, your visuals are amazing as well. Demonstrates and emphasizes the importance of visuals for the hypothetical Maker-tool.
This display and information you have presented is amazing. Keep up the great work. 👍 Thank you for your hard work and dedication.
Back in 2010 I played around with something called "Open Zelda" - it's rather obscure but it was pretty friggin cool for setting up your own dungeons in ALTTP style. It might still be worth checking out.
5:51 ONE OF US! :D
Fantastic Video, as always tbh. Love how much effort you put into the videos. I really respect that :)
I'd love if Nintendo somehow finds a way to do a working Zelda Maker. I'd like to imagine that a game like that sells well too.
MVP Lanz approves!
This sounds so good. All of these are amazing ideas
Fun video Maze! I loved seeing the development of this project on your life streams
Amazing video! You're absolutely the best Zelda content creator on CZcams. The amount of insight and effort you put into each video is unreal.
While I would prefer more 2D Zelda games by Nintendo than having a Zelda Dungeon Maker, it would be a great tool and fun game to have if we are mostly only getting 3D Zelda games now.
Especially if we have to wait 6 years between new entries now.
A simple "Onion Skin" feature would help with connecting rooms. Meaning other rooms and floors are represented as a transparent overlay that can be toggled on or off.
Doors can then have a rooms assigned to them. Meaning their position is less important as room boarders don't have to align, just their doors. Think of it as the two way teleportor system in Halo. This would open up potential for door based puzzles and mazes.
Woah! That's actaully a really good idea! Very well thought out!
That was a thing that I had in mind for a long time. Thanks for talking about that!
Awesome visual explanations! Not sure if this was already mentioned in the comments, but there is a game out there called Super Dungeon Maker that is the closest thing to your concepts.
1. While I generally don't like reliance on HD remakes/remasters I'm fine with it if it's a major upgrade to the original like Links Awakening Remake but I would appreciate a remake for the Oracle Titles. Maybe with extra selling points like the cut content from back then brought it.
2. A "Zelda Maker" does sound enticing enough but for those who don't want to wait for Nintendo to bring one, which likely won't happen anytime soon, I would recommend googling for Zelda Classic.
It's a nice 8 or 16 bit, whatever you prefer engine to create Zelda quests and already has a nice community working with it. It''s not as easily learned as Mario Maker for those who are interested in but it isn't that hard to learn either. You can quickly make a basic quest after some time. There is even a tutorial on yt by TeamUDF, though it's from a older much less friendly to learn version of it. Even I learned it and put out a (bad) quest but grew too ambitious to do my second quest but I generally have trouble motivating myself to finish things, even if I love them so no worries of it because it was complicated but you DO have to put a lot of work into preparations for grander quest with more than the standard tiles.
3. If you want to sample some of the higher tier Zelda games made with Zelda Classic, you could check out the channel of ElectrometerPrime . He did a couple of them. They show what can be possible with the engine but most of the videos are a couple of years old.
Automatically subscribed, your videos are pure gold, amazing! ❤
I love the visual aids that you had mocked up for this video.
Really really nice touch!
Have you seen Portal 2's level editor? It works similarly to what you are suggesting.
I have not, I only played the first Portal. But now I really want to!
@@MonsterMaze Portal 2's level editor is really intuitive, especially with the connections and the object variations
Never thought I'd meet someone else who'd played Time Splitters 2. I remember I once created an insane challenge room where you were given a 12-gauge and some ammo and you had to kill all the hybrids that constantly spawned. I never beat it. 😬
TS2 has brought me so many great memories. I loved creating levels for my friends to play. Especially stealth Missions were a personal favourite of mine!
@@MonsterMaze those were always so tricky for my teenage self.
What an awesome video! Great animations and ideas. Thanks man!
Nicely done!
comprehensive! I like it! Well done.
Holy cow, TimeSplitters 2!! That game was my jam back in the day! Also loved 3 (which had the same robust map maker)
Like, nobody talked about those games anymore, so I’m so freaking delighted to see it mentioned here.
Great video dude.
Such a great idea, cheers!
wow the work that went into this video. Amazing.
Neat video, lot of mockup work went into it looks like
Hey I just want to point out the amazing work you did on the mockups, they are amazing, great work. +sub
Nice video, connecting objects together visually is a good idea. I think it would be good if each object had multiple connection points (for different events) and there were a few simple logic objects that are invisible while playing the level, which you can link things with to make more complex puzzles (button order, timers, etc.)
I know I say this about all your videos, but holy moley the hours you put in to make these stunning videos is just insane. I really hope it pays your bills and much more. I’m so glad you exist.
It's fun to think about. I think you came up with some good ideas as to how it would all work. I no longer get my hopes up for anything involving Nintendo, but it would be super cool to have something like this.
Love your work
Fantastic video! Very cool! :D
This was incredibly well made. 👏
I would make each single room be able to clip asymetrical on a grid (meaning the grid isn't made so that the general shape of the dungeon isn't as stiff as in Links Awakening.)
And on the door-problem:
When you place a door, it automatically creates another door on the respective opposing position in the next room. No manual connection. Being aware of where the room is on the grid is a better solution than having to be aware of the exact position of the door in the next room.
Maybe you can even connect the door to the room (or not), and depending on this moving the room would also move the door with it (or not).
But yeah, extremely good video :D Alway happy to come back to your channel and finding high quality content :D
As someone who grew up playing Timesplitters 2, I am so glad you mentioned it in this video! The level editor, especially for it's time, is absurdly creative, all while being simplistic and intuitive, working with the limitations of it's era. It definitely is a great example of a level creation tool, and one that could inform a "Zelda Maker" in the future.
On the topic of correcting door misalignments, maybe it could be that when you place a door connecting two rooms, they automatically go to the right spot, and if you move a door in one room, the corresponding door will move in it’s room to match it.
Very good video :-)
The general ideas you suggest are pretty straightforward, but that's their strength - and your mockups are great to display it more concretely !
Regarding the door alignment issue, you just need to separate "alignment" and "connection" : let the user explicitly link the door from the one room to a door in another room, no matter whether they are adjacent and aligned or not.
Then there are two different situations to consider :
- if using a sprite-based zelda style, no problem. In those, you can only see the current room, so you don't care about alignment with other rooms at all. (The transition animation from one room to the next can make them look "aligned" even if they aren't really aligned on the logical map)
- if using a 3d style, then you can probably just have conditional display : if the destination door is adjacent and aligned, then do a smooth scrolling over the two rooms. Else, insert a screen fade to and from black.
Then you no longer restrict creativity (people can move rooms freely without caring about strict alignment) while still allowing people to make a smooth setup if they do want to.
I think the easiest way to solve your door conundrum is: when you make the room next to the one you made, have the entrance be locked in that position. That way, there is still creative freedom, but none of the door hazard issues.
I know this was primarily focusing on Zelda map makers.
But this is surprisingly detailed and thought out, I'm gonna keep this stuff in mind for my game project...
this sounds like a super cool idea!
Great video, I love how you find a way to illustrate all your ideas, it makes the whole thing very intuitive and easy to follow.
When it comes to triggers, I like your idea but I would already be happy with something way simpler. Take Mario Maker : when you place a door, a second one appears as well. In that "Zelda Dungeon Maker" you could just put a switch, which would automatically come with a chest. Put the switch on a wall, it becomes an eye-switch. Put the chest on an open door, it becomes a closed one. Hold on any of them for more option (frozen eye-switch, switch that needs something on to stay active, etc).
I don't even think having multiple switches for one door would be necessary, Mario Maker community proved that you can simulate complex puzzles with crazy off-screen contraptions, and people are willing to make them. So you could have special hidden rooms in the dungeon with no entrance or exit, that would be used only as a way for the dungeon creator to do some off-screen shenanigans, witch on-off switches and bombs.
My biggest reserve would still be how imaginative the younger audience can be, and how many stupid boss-rush levels we would get...
This is such a good idea. I’d love to have this as a game
Awesome video bro!
I think this is a super super cool concept and I feel like it could absolutely be done almost exactly how you put it.
I think another way to get past how you brought up how if you wanted to make an eye switch for a door and a button to activate a chest is a separate item. For example, theres a separate item that's specifically for a door or specifically for chests. Take the same item, but its labeled as being specifically for a door. It could be the same item but its programmed to to different things and its labeled as such.
man didn't think I'd see a time splitters reference lol i freaking love the first 2. fun video though man always fun to watch or listen
I'm so happy you mentioned TS2!
Been waiting for this
To solve the door problem
Have two semi separate building modes. Room builder and Dungeon builder (if you've ever wrote music in a DAW this will sound familiar).
Once you've built a room you can drop it in the dungeon builder. Door placement is decided in the dungeon builder not the room builder. That way it's easy to line them up
The ability to make unique room configurations is too good to pass up. I think the room/dungeon grid should not be restrained to standard room sizes, but down to the unit of tiles. In this way, doors may not line up, but you would be able to observe that that is the case and make smaller changes to make them line up, as the dungeon creator him/herself. The rooms would fit together like a complex collection of Tetris bricks.
Also, I can't believe you referenced TimeSplitters 2's MapMaker! I was one of the weirdos who made maps while my friends wondered why. I'm thrilled it made an appearance in your video.
Overall, nice work! You spelled out so many important details about how the game function and user interface should be. You made it visually clear and enticing as well. I appreciate the balance of possibility and use-ability you described. That duality of those two concepts sits at the heart of all great design, in my opinion. I was swept away and immersed for the entire runtime. I didn't even expect to be on board for a Zelda dungeon maker. Now, I'm highly intrigued.
This is a dream if it comes to fruition. 😍
Thanks Monster Maze, you do your videos very well!👍
Now I want to play Mario Maker but it's passed 3am..
I just hope one of Nintendo's seeings this!
An idea for the door situation would be to leave the door placement on the layout editor.
As for the "connecting actions to triggers", you can take Portal 2's approach of having visual connections in the map editor (while removing the connections in-game, to make it more mysterious)
For linking objects, I think a system similar to what Mario Maker does for doors currently might work well. Wherein there are symbols that link specific objects to one another in a visual way in the editor. I would imagine that there could be a submenu that has a list of actions or a sequence that objects linked by that symbol follow, so for instance, beating a mini boss could cause a chest in another room to them open, and the camera could move to that chest as it opens, all would be linked by a non-numerical symbol with pre-programmed options to facilitate that sort of behavior.
As someone who's spent over 3000 hours playing Mario Maker across Wii U and Switch, I would absolutely love to see a Zelda Maker. Awesome video, and I think your little editor you made on your own was impressive.
For the misaligned doors you can have it so you can only make a new room if there's an exit to that room "Door, pit, cracked wall, etc" and then have it set where the door is to match the other room.
You could only place room travel doors on the map editor and when placing an exit is could zoom in to the room and show the neighboring rooms, or in the case of pits when placing one show the rooms below it with highlights to tell you where they lead. Then have it place the door/pit simultaneously between the rooms.
If it's a door/cracked wall then have door only be able to be moved forward and backwards from it's chosen spot. Letting you change how far in the door goes in but the area behind the door where the path between rooms will be unplacable on the height matching it's other half so you don't get disconnected doors.
So say you place a door on the left wall two tiles from the top on the raised half, the new room would immediately have a door already place on the right wall two tiles down also on the raised half.
With pit's it's easier as you would just have then fall to the same corresponding tile on the lower floor while only letting you place the travel pit on tiles that have a spot on at least one of the lower floors.
Also for the key problem you could have several key types "Small Key, Big Key, Colored Keys", doing so would allow you to make certain key types have less keys than doors making the player choose doors.
For example you could have a hidden room with three Blue doors, one has a heart container, one with a fairy you can bottle, and the last with let's say a sword upgrade or something similar. But in the dungeon you only have two Blue Keys making the player choose which they will pass up. By having extra key types you can still use other key types for dungeon progression without the risk of soft locking it too easily. (Makers can always be bad and purposefully make it so you can soft lock yourself. For that reason I also suggest if Nintendo made this game to include on the pause screen how many of each key there is so you can easily tell if you soft locked yourself.)
Great video!
Surprised you didn't mentioned Legend Maker at the end.
They are basically trying to do exactly that, creating a "Mario Maker" for Zelda.
Been wanting this for years
I made a project in unity where you can connect different objects together like doors and switches and logic gates. They all share a core value allowing this to be possible. All I gotta do now is make it to where the player can change this in game.
Ok, so regardless of the message, I just have to say that you really did an exceptional job in this video of conveying your ideas in visual form. Fantastic work!
I love this idea and I cannot express how much I want The legend of Zelda: dungeon maker
I remember there being a "Zelda 1 map creator" back in the early 2000s, somewhere online. It was basically a flash thing. That one let you edit the map completely.
Great video! This is a game idea I've always wanted to see, and the animations are great!
Also, as for a level creator like the game logic one you mentioned, I seriously reccomend you check out Wargroove. It's an Advanced Wars inspired game made by Chucklefish, but it has a level creator accessible from the start that is *exactly what was used to create the main story!* It allows for a lot of cool things, and you can even make a full campaign with it!
Dude is playing some straight banger music in the outro!
I'd buy this game in a heartbeat.
a solution for the door problem would be a "check adjacent rooms" feature, which would display a ghost of what other nearby rooms look like, including where doors are.
This same thing would help with rooms on different floors, as then you can line up drops and ladders more easily
As a fan of Zelda, Mario Maker, TimeSplitters and Xenoblade, I think this video is aMAZEing!
For the door placement, maybe a solution could be to show an outline on the wall where the door in an adjacent room is. So the player can easily see where to place it.