The Iliad - what is it really about?
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- čas přidán 3. 03. 2016
- The Iliad - Homer's epic poem of Achilles and the Trojan War. It was the Bible of its day, but what is it really about? Spoilers!
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Here I summarise the plot of the Iliad, which may surprise and disappoint those who thought that it was the story of the Trojan War, and then describe and illustrate one of its main themes: the glory and tragedy of war; and then go on to point out the crucial scene of the poem, in which Priam begs for the return of the body of his son, and argue that this is actually the scene that gives meaning to the piece.
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The scene with Priam is indeed the most important section but there is another critical comparison here to make in understanding the Iliad and that moment; the one between Priam and Agamemnon as they relate to Achilles. Both Priam and Agamemnon are the leaders of their opposing sides and yet in character they are very different. Very early on Agamemnon slights and takes from Achilles - as is his right according to traditions of war - but Achilles is insulted and enraged, to the point that he nearly kills Agamemnon if not for being restrained by Athena who holds him back by the hair. (Very great symbolism here) Achilles quits his part of the fighting because of this (there is more to it than that but this works for now) and sulks on the beach as his fellow Greeks are getting their butts kicked.
What is important here is to remember the motives of the different sides. The Greeks are there at Troy under the excuse to rescue Helen but that is really just that - an excuse. The ancient Greeks loved war and any good excuse was more than enough justification for the opportunity for both glory in war and the plundering of riches and heirlooms of renowned. Achilles is the personification of the ideal Greek warrior; he is virtually invincible in marshal skills on the field of battle. (Alexander the Great often slept with his copy of the Iliad under his pillow and strove always to be a living Achilles) He is successful (Achilles, not Alexander) in the beginning of the war in both defeating his enemies and taking plunder - in short, he is the best Greek anyone could hope to be. Agamemnon then comes along and takes that away from him, both his honor of glory and his plunder.
Much later, after all his sulking and bemoaning - and making a long series of events very short - Achilles is restored to glory and his place as the best Greek is returned to him by his own hands after killing Hector - with a lot of help from the Gods. But this is bitter sweet because Achilles knows something very important from the outset of the war. His mother Thetis was a Nereid, a Greek sea nymph, who was destined to give birth to a son 'greater that his father' - who ever that father may be. At one point, Zeus himself pursued Thetis which means that Zeus could have been Achilles' father at one point if things had gone differently. This shows you Achilles' true potential and true tragedy in what could have been his; he could have been greater than the king of the Gods himself! Yet this was taken away from him when Zeus was convinced not to pursue Thetis and instead married off to a Greek king, Achilles' mortal father. What's more important is that Thetis due to her state of divinity had a vision of Achilles before he left for the Trojan war where she saw two paths for her son, one where he did not go and remained home - living a long and prosperous life but eventually dying a mortal death and having his name forgotten to time - and the other where he would go to Troy and win immortal glory but never return home again.
Achilles is a character that is plagued by the understandings he possesses of his position and what might have been his at every turn. He is cruelly cheated again and again by both mortals and Gods and he knows this and yet he must make the best decision he can while playing a game where the cards are already stacked against him. He must choose between obscurity, happiness, and loyalty to family against what to all ancient Greeks was the most important thing ever - glory in war.
Coming back round to the meeting with Priam, Achilles finds himself resolved to the fate his mother saw; he knows he will never return home again and that his father will die alone without his only son to care for him. His heart is heavy with this burden as fame seems a cold consolation prize. (Remember, Hector's body lays just a short distance away in the dirt near his tent after being dragged around the outside of the city all day by Achilles) Then enters Priam. The father of the man he just killed and defiled - a man very much like his own father, weakened by time and without his son, his sworn enemy in a time of war - who then kneels before him and kisses the hand of the man who murdered his son and begs for the return of his body to show him honor in death with a proper burial. Priam is a man on the other side -- the enemy - and yet he shows Achilles more honor and respect than the leader of the Greeks, Agamemnon. Priam offers Achilles riches and war gear as tribute for his son's body - which was a common and honorable tradition in war. Priam by the very act of coming through the camp of his enemies - a camp of tens of thousand, by the way - and then enters into the tent of their greatest warrior who killed his own son earlier that same day is courageous to an unbelievable level. I would argue that Priam taking this risk and prostrating himself before Achilles is the single most tragic and heroic act in the Iliad and perhaps in all of western literature. And why does he do this? He does it not for fame but for love of his son and for upholding the traditions of honor.
The comparison of Priam and Agamemnon in their relationships to Achilles can be used as a lens to understanding the Iliad. It allows us to understand it both through a modern perspective as well as how the Greeks themselves saw it. War is never so simple as good and evil, friend or foe, and even those who romanticize war as being filled with glory must recognize that there is a bitter tragedy inherent within it as well that makes us question if it was truly justified, if was truly worth it. Achilles is the personification of Greek glory not in spite of the tragedy connected to him but because of it. He knows what is going to happen before it happens and that gives that much more gravity to the decisions that he makes. He chooses never to go home again and yet in that amazing moment with Priam he is reminded of a different kind of glory and honor than that which is found on the battlefield and this gives him a kind of peace that war and the glory derived from it never could. If he would never return home to care for his own father then he would recognize the courage and honor in his enemy, a father who simply wishes to bury his own son. This is all the more poignant as Achilles' father will soon die alone without a son to show him the same honors.
Priam and Agamemnon represent the two polar great ideals in the ancient world that drove the Greeks; that of glory in war and that of honor in acting in accordance with tradition towards others. Achilles has been cruelly treated on both fronts by virtually all sides and even after achieving the heights of one - glory in war - he knows it is bitter and really a sham compared to what could have been his. This one moment with Priam truly belongs to him and allows him to make a decision that is his own, it is a moment of true choice and ultimately redemption. This forever places Achilles as a paragon of heroic tragedy and one that makes us question what it is that we value and what drives us to act as we do. When we are forced to makes these choices we must often adhere to one set of ideals that can and often do conflict with others - others that are no less valid or legitimate. War forces us to do terrible things, to others and to ourselves.
This analysis is so brilliant it's breathtaking. Outstanding work!
Thx for this.
Why don't you just post your own video...
Can I just ask 1) isn't Zeus married to Hera?
2) Why can't Achilles just leave after killing Hector? after all, he avenged Patroculous and he has forgiven the Trojans so to speak. He has made his place in history why does he continue to fight?
3) As to the sack of Troy and death of Achilles does it not strike the Greeks that honor seems to mean nothing? Though Achilles the greatest of the warriors could kill Hector, he would fall by the cowardly Paris and it would be the guileless of Odessyues that wins the war, not Achilles courage, and though both these events were granted by the gods somehow the characters needed to meet them halfway so idk its ironic you need the shady characters to make everything work.
Never read a longer commentary in youtube. I'm glad I did.
" King Menaleous goes to his brother and says ' *Oi* '
And his brother says ' you're right we're not having this ' "
*Conversation efficiency - 100*
DM - right, Menelaus, convince your brother, the King of Kings, to wage war against Troy for Helen;
M; Oi! *rolls nat 20*;
A; right! Can't have that!
This is like the beginning to a set of lost Chas'n'Dave lyrics. I might write the rest.
Waiting for John Cleese to play Menaleous
@@NoCoverCharge *Menelaus
they’re proto-spartans. very laconic
Homer's mention that Priam reminded Achilles of his own father is also a powerful detail in that last scene of the Iliad.
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed".
"Sing to me, O Muse, of the wrath of Akhilles!"
That's about as clear an indicator as you'll find of what the Iliad was truly about.
That was a thought initially in response to the notion most people have that the Iliad is about the war rather than about this brief episode centered around Akhilles.
It starts when his wrath starts, and ends when his wrath ends...
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed".
@@Universal..👍The hellenisation of history is a huge forgery.
I've always said the Odyssey is one man's excuse for coming home a decade late and smelling of nymph.
Steeleperfect
2 decades later.
...a nymph with her own island, mind you.
In my graduate seminar, I got kudos from the instructor for comparing wily Odysseus and wily Captain Kirk. "To boldly go where no man has gone before."
@Andrew McGuire To go boldly where no man has gone before. Yeah, that sounds more Greek. It creates the kind of ponderous, portentous tone preferred in the Classic era movies they made in the 1950's and 1960's.
Plot twist. Odysseus was actually Homer covering his own ass.
Please please make more videos like this. Not even if it is about ancient combat or battles, just something you yourself are invested in. This was incredibly interesting, not because of the plot of the epic, but because how YOU were talking about it.. How YOU explained it, and how YOU took it to heart
Keep it up! More like this! :-D
+BanjoGate He honestly looked like he was going to cry at the end. It was really moving.
Well-said!
+Gnome Child 293 a dank meme appears! :-)
+Syerjchep
That part always chokes me up too. Fantastically done.
+BanjoGate Agreed. Need more guys like this, who just lay out the core concepts, with accuracy and make it interesting - also then giving thier own snippits of analysis. I really like this kind of format.
I teach "The Iliad" to High Schoolers, and, I must say, this is the best explanation of why I teach it. Thank you so much. Brought a tear to me eye.
so you teachers can choose? Why the hell did my teachers had such lame taste in books? :/
Is that the portrait of Henry Bemis I spy?
I wish I read this in high school. It would have made me appreciate literature and understand what it can offer.
surprised you still get to do that. If they are not condemning it for racism today, they will for sure be tomorrow.
@@kevinstreeter6943
No disrespect but I suspect you wouldn't have, the same as I didn't in my youth
Achilles saw in the old man his life for his son and saw how his future existence through his families name was ended and this moved him
It's in the moment of seeing your enemies humanity that you see your own and then all rage and it's desire to consume you ends
This is a similar thing that the book, All quiet on the western front, brings out
There is no glory in war, just death and destruction
All the stories of battles great amount to nothing and the horrors of what it means to take another human beings life is detailed in initiate detail when in the book he fights with the German soldier and wrestles with him and dives the bayonet into him. The horror is listening to him die over many hours and then finding a notebook on the enemy that details his life, his family. He determines to deliver it to the man's family after the war and tell them how he fought gallently
I had a friend who was an ex motor cycle gang member. He told me how he left that lifestyle when he became a Christian because it was at that moment he learnt true forgiveness. Before his encounter with God he was filled with rage. He said there was no end to it. Even if you ended the life of another the rage went on, unstoppable, unrelenting, unquenchable
I wish I had been exposed to such great books growing up and I wish my teachers understood their true leaving and their amazing ability to inject wisdom into the hearts and minds of youth
Sadly, it took me many years of hurting myself and others before the truth of works such as this, all quiet on the western front, The Bible, philosophy, logic, reasoning, the rule of law, justice etc to sink into my being
Sure, the compassion might have been realised a lot sooner had I access to these things but whether or not I would have understood their great ability to shape my life for the better, I doubt it, I was too stupid and arrogant and full of myself back then to sit at their feet and learn from them
Seeing Lindy get choked up makes me realise how much I appreciate him and his content, 10/10 lad.
Right? Damn moving stuff.
Agreed. Love to see Lloyd open up here.
Right. Moving moment. You don't see that a lot on the CZcams.
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed".
Couldn't agree more. Great stuff.
I am so glad that other people cringe when they think about the sad demise of the Library of Alexandria.
+RussianCommissar Half of my friends on Facebook are still mourning the Library at Alexandria.
+RussianCommissar I don't care for the loss of any amount of Gold or Silver through history but I do regrett the loss of that library deeply. And I am gratefull to those unsung heroes that had a share in saving the parts of antique literature that has come onto us.
+Derederi Why should they have to explain? This symbol is ancient and has a firm place in several ancient religions. Nobody has to explain themselves for using it, it's very clearly not carrying any nazi meaning (otherwise it would be overtly obvious).
+Derederi Can't help but your question has something irritating, you might explain?
+HamsterPants522
"please" "Peacefully" "
Lindy I have to tell you something, I lost my Brother many moons ago and blamed myself for his death. I could never deal with my grief and guilt and it caused me lots of problems over the years. Now I see this video and your passion and compassion and sheer sincerity and it has helped me a lot. I will stop typing now cos I can hardly see through 20 years of tears, but thank you so much,
I’m very sorry for loss, and even more for your pain since. Would your brother want you to be so unhappy all of your life? Anyway, hugs from The land down under 🤗
@@bilindalaw-morley161 Thanks for your comment, it is very much appreciated, and it comes at an ironic time, today (13th August) would have been his birthday. Hope you are all staying safe down under. MTA
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed"
@@Universal.. how is this related to the thread
Your brother wants you to be happy ❤
It's really a catalogue of descriptions of how people can die from javelin wounds. Read it, you'll find this is true.
THIS
Useful information in its day
BE FAIR . Only 89 %
The hero's proud strike between the shoulder blades as the victim is fleeing--sort of bugged me.
Not throwing knives? I refuse to believe it... 🤣
The Illiad is actually pretty notorious for giving long elaborate backstories for most of the random soldiers that get cut down.
That was his point
This is maybe the best video I've seen of yours, and I totally agree! The Iliad was a very important story in my childhood and then in my teens when I went for classical studies. It's a fundamental book in Western culture.
Which was why I was SO MAD when I saw the movie Troy. I felt insulted. And it was a shame, 'cause most of the cast I believe were good actors. But MAN was it badly done! I remember thinking "ya know you can just make a stupid movie, you don't HAVE to shit on Classics in the process!"
+Nereidhar I thought Troy was mixed. Some characters were spot on (Priam, Achilles (except he was far too old)), others were hopelessly wrong (Patroklos, Greater Ajax).
Lindybeige There was also a LOT of very silly scenes. The end was a mess, with the aristocracy escaping from a secret door they only AT THE END decide to use and Paris asking Eneas who he was (and I'm pretty sure they were cusins or relatives anyway) and if he could use a sword (c'mon son, the dude is a prominent warrior, I think it's safe to assume he can handle a sword!).
The fact that the kill Menelaos at the beginning.
Or the fact that the Acheans decide "we should pretend there's a pestilence and hide", only there is no pestilence and we are left wondering if the corpses left on the beach are props shipped there by Amazon Express delivery or just folks pretending to be dead...
And as the movie is edited, it also looks like the whole war is over in a few weeks.
The fact is that, as you said, The Iliad is not only a very important book, but a very tragic one about a war that really took place and, by that, a statement on war in general. The superficial and messy way they handled the material is really upsetting for me. Even if there was some good actors and there was some good music choice...
+Nereidhar I purposely didn't watch the movie, and don't plan to. I just "knew" Hollywood wouldn't get it right - some books can be transferred to another medium successfully, but the Iliad doesn't seem to be one of them... :(
P.S. Lindy, that was an *incredible* video! Thank you.
Jason Doe I wasn't expecting a very good movie but HELL I was shocked @_@
***** I don't think they do it on purpose, I just think that they don't give a flying fuck about quality.
Oh get over yourself you uptight beaver.
It wasn't a bad movie at all, and I'm so bored of the incessant whining of people never satisfied with a movie adaptation of a piece of literature.
Did you not listen to Lindy? When they would act out the epic poem, it took them MANY nights. How do you think anyone can compress MANY nights of text into 90 minute movie? How?!
You can't you dimwit.
Of course it's not going to babe thee same. Of course scenes would be exclude and many others altered completely to make sense of it all.
You have NO ounce of an idea how difficult such a massive piece of literature could be converted into a feature film. No idea! None!
Stop being a dimwit and realise that no one will ever do a good piece of literature justice on film. Not possible.
The movie was just fine for what it was and the message that was conveyed.
This is the first time I've seen Lloyd be so emotional. Liked.
Because the Illiad is a greater work of literacy than the bible ever was.
He also points out to the many lost scrolls in Alexandria burning, and the story being somewhat lost in history.
@@Tinohadji It's not a work of "literacy," since it was part of the oral tradition, passed down not through reading and writing, but by memorization. Besides, Homer is said to have been blind, anyway, in an age before Braille.
I read it (a big part of it) in 2nd- and 3rd-year Ancient Greek in high school (a private school). Despite having read a fair amount of poetry in Latin, in German, and in French, and being an English major in college who truly loved poetry and literature, I still look back on reading the Iliad in Greek as the most beautiful literary experience of my life.
-- Btw, Lloyd's reading of the Iliad reminds me of a point of Classical scholarship. Gerald F. Else, an American classical scholar at the U of Michigan, claimed in 1965 that the dramatic form of tragedy most likely arose out of competitive readings of the Iliad, as some competitors began to insert actors in their readings to liven them up. This is contrary to the conventional notion that tragedy grew out of the Dionysian tradition, from dithyrambs recited at the orgiastic celebrations of Dionysus, suggested rather half-heartedly and uncertainly by Aristotle, and more recently promoted by Friedrich Nietzsche, who had his various reasons for wanting to believe an account that would disparage the morality of Greek Tragedies. Thematically, Else's account makes more sense.
-- By the way, there was only one "banned" book at our school, and that was the Richmond Lattimore translation of the Iliad, because it was the most literal translation available, so close to the original and to normal English speech that it would have done our homework exercises for us.
@@grizzlygrizzle Still a work of literacy. Yes it was passed down orally.... But people were capable of memorising it until it was indeed written. If it was changed in written form... It is still a work of literacy... Even if whomever after Homer put pen to paper had edited it.
The fact that it was a poem first, just adds to the legend. Again.. Who wrote the 'bible'... Its a bunch of different writtings, specificially chosen and put together. Arguably many of the passages, may have also been written by someone else than what is claimed.
@@grizzlygrizzle Banning a book.. Rofl.. Thats a sure way of saying: Hey kids.. Buy this book.
Reminds me of my language classes of foreign languages. I would only read 'foreign' books, translated in English to do my book reports.
"Various people, like Alexander"
*thinks for a second*
"...the Great"
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed".
I believe the substory about Patroclos and how he wound up dead is also of importance within the plot of the Iliad.
Specifically because he went to battle wearing Achilles' armour, with the latter's consent, in a bid to help boost the morale of the Greek troops, as well as to restore the waning reputation among those soldiers of their idol Achilles. In a way, Achilles must have felt the burden of guilt, about the death of his friend at the hands of Hector, like a torture in his own mind. All his attempts to blame and shame Hector's corpse would never free him from that guilt.
Then came King Priam to plead for the release of his dead son, showing not only his courage, but more so, the impressive nobility of his character.
Priam showed him the concept of forgiveness. Not to dwell on what is lost but to get up an carry on. With that, Achilles was finally able to find peace, i.e. forgive himself.
yep, and also patroclus is not a friend of Achilles, but his lover
Poor Hector... Never made it back to his wife for his bath. Too tragic for words... Ah well, at least Agamemnon made it back to *his* wife for *his* bath...
+EnglishDreadnought wasn't that a bloodbath? He got murdered by his wife and her lover as soon as he got home.
Guido Kreeuseler Indeed. In the bath according to one account. That's what I was alluding to.
Well, at least that ended the curse of the Tantalids.
Gerben van Straaten his daughter was not actually killed at the end.
that is exactly the point, I think. Hector is the true hero of the iliad and perhaps the entire collection- he fights Akilleus even though he knows he is going to die. He does his duty whereas Akilleus is ruled by his rage and ego and Agamemnon by his thirst for glory and willingness to sacrifice even his daughter for this purpose
Does anyone else want to hear Lindy read the entire Illiad now?
no just the catalogue of ships
I almost posted this. If he narrated and discussed on every chapter. I would watch every chapter, more than once.
Well, yes. "...but I digress..." :-D
I'll bet it would take him the rest of his life to get through a single reading. But it would be absolutely excellent!
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed".
The “ pouring the bath” section really almost make me cry when I read it, she knew he was bound to die in the siege of Troy ( chapter 6) but she still expected him to come home to her and her son..,
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed".
'Pouring the bath' while everyone knew he would not come back reminds me so much of the Ride of the Rohirrim in Lord of The Rings. I read it as a teenager and it just washed over me. When I read it years later as a parent and adult I relialized that these men were voluntarily riding to fight and die because they had sworn to do so. No one was coming home, they were all going to die yet they did it because it was right. To say that my reaction to it when I understood their sacrifice was different, it putting it mildly.
"You can tell if you are middle class by how angered you are by the burning of The Library of Alexandria" - love this one ! Thank you. At some stage I shall use that one !
Well said, Lindybeige. I am Greek , and believe it or not, Homer's "Iliad" and "Odyssey" were my bedtime stories in my early childhood (at the age of 4). Indeed, my father used to put me in bed every night and he used to read a chapter of Iliad (and when Iliad ended he continued to Odyssey). I can still remember to this day (almost 40 years have passed), how he used to tell me the story and try to enact the various battles, so that I would be more interested... I think that he did a splendid job, because I still remember these scenes with the utmost fondness. In fact, I will read Iliad and Odyssey to my son too, in a year or two! It is unbelievable that a poem/story written more than 2500 years ago, is still used to educate children/men...
I think that this is an absolutely brilliant thing to do. My mom used to read "I am the Great Horse " to me. It is more aimed at teens and it is about Alexander the Great but it was also something that is dear to my heart. I think one day when I have children I will read both of Homer's epics to them.
Jason Vogiatzis
That's a wise parent. My parents got a lot of things wrong but what they got totally right was to read to me - they both did - starting at age 2. An example of how that worked: Alice (by Lewis Carroll NOT Disney) has vocabulary and concepts way over the head of a modern-day 4-year-old but that's how old I was when it was read to me and that stretch just beyond a small child's comprehension probably contributed pretty heavily to my eagerness to read things on my own. They didn't read me any Greek Classics except in adaptation, but that was enough to instill a lifelong love of mythology.
Wise man, your father was
Was it in Ancient Greek or Modern Greek? Sound wise Beowulf seems to lose something [in] Modern English compared to the alliteration of the Old English.
@@jrt818 True about Beowulf. It's related to Norse sagas about other members of Beowulf's (or Bjovulf's) extended family. An important thing about all those stories: for centuries before they were finally written down, they were spoken or sung not read, so it was all about the sound.
Lindybiege personifies the fine line between genius and madness.
@Dung Pie see michael gira
Good old British eccentricity
I think he dwells on it
Peter Huang the line is called successful
Having a crazed hobo face doesn't mean anything.
That almost had me in tears at the end. No matter how many millennia will pass, the themes occur again and again.
"you can tell how middle class you are" damn.. that hurt
Did it ever! :-)
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed".
@@Universal.. thats a huge text for an Albanian meme
I can see this moved you, as it did me. I don't know what you do for a living, but you'd make a great professor.
And so is told the sad story of an old man wanting to bury his son... and it's immediately followed by upbeat trumpet music.
Kind of a mood whiplash there.
Great. Now I'm crying at Lindybeige videos.
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed"..
Illiad is also about the Combat PTSD of Achilles. Achilles shows all the signs: tremendous loss, grief, a sense of great betrayal, rage and bloodlust, uncontrollable remorse. Read Dr Peter Bourne's book, Achilles in Viet Nam.
Yeah but he also feels the ecstasy of godhood on the battlefield so I mean
That's kinda part of it
you almost cried at the end:)
i almost cried
There may or may not have been a tear or two
Same here though.
So did I!
You're talking about a scene from "A Tale of Two Cities".
Wrong. The Illiad is about the catalogue of ships, everyone loves that bit.
1981Mog I used to listen to that specific bit for years every evening, and it was so riveting that i couldn't fall asleep.
Those 8 pages took hours to read...
That might be weird out loud from one person telling the story, but hilarious none the less.
I actually liked that part.
1981Mog There is a poem of a famous Russian poet mentioning this point: Бессонница, Гомер, тугие паруса,- Я список кораблей прочёл до середины, - Сей журавлиный клин, сей поезд лебединый, - Что над Элладою когда-то поднялся. The poet claims that he has read half of the list but finally concludes in a refined acmeist manner that everything is being moved by love and that the ethereal Black Sea is more trustworthy than passed away Homer.
I hate it when they bring in a new character just to kill him off.
It's OK. The new character was wearing the red star fleet shirt. His death a foregone conclusion.
Cool
Star Trek was a good show!
Bet'cher a Star Wars fan even, guess what you can't hear explosions in space.
Homer's like:
Hold my watered-down wine
@@BooDamnHoo I was thinking that exact same thing. You beat me to it!
I think it’s important to note what Achilles has done to Hector’s wife, Achilles already killed her father and mother in a siege of another city, Hectors the only person she had left, she says that Hectors her mother, her father, and her partner, and she know Achilles is about to take him from her. It’s incredibly sad.
Anyone else notice Lloyd becomes a bit teary eyed at the end there.
You can really tell how much Lloyd cares about this piece of literature, truly enlightening
Thank you, that was an intriguing examination of the Iliad. You are right about the way many of the deaths are portrayed. These are not nameless soldiers being killed by a hero. Homer portrays them as real people and therefore when they die we feel something. In the modern movie John Wick, John kills many henchmen (who didn't kill his dog) to get to the man who killed his dog. At least Achilles was avenging a man. We do not care about the henchmen because they are anonymous. Many of the deaths in The Iliad are not anonymous and therefore we do care. This helps make The Iliad brilliant as opposed to just entertainment (pretty good entertainment) as in John Wick.
I would kill a henchman to get to the person who killed my cat.
@@blacksquirrel4008 It is good there are always so many henchmen.
@@blacksquirrel4008 I doubt a cat lover could kill a human let alone a "henchman" even if it was an ambush, even then i have serious doubts.
Digger Au You don’t know us very well then. We might have some remorse but I have a friend who I am sure would not hesitate to kill the man who eviscerated his cat for sport, then threw the carcass onto his yard and I have taken long shots at the coyote I suspected of having killed my cat. Cat lovers do go in for shotguns, though, so not as effective at long distances.
@@jameshills7425 also, pencils are cheap
What a fantastic, beautiful, passionate narration. Loved the video!
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed".
@@Universal.. sounds like you have a specific agenda. You spent an awful amount of time on an essay that makes no sense.
Lindybeige, you would make an excellent teacher. You have a real gift for making somewhat complex or intricate subjects easily understandable / relateable.
Since watching your Platoons video, you've become one of my favourite uploaders.
Cheers.
If you can't explain something in simple terms everyone can understand, you probably don't know your subject, certainly not the case here.
god did it :)
I think he would make a better cataloguer of ships
@@chrismonte9468 True that.
problem is you learn from lindy..... a teacher now adays your suppose to build brand loyaltys and make sure they know just enough to be a consumer. lindys more qualified to be a knowledge based cult messiah..
`No, I´m going to sulk here instead`
CZcams award nominee Lindybeige
Sulk! - I can only garner from your comment that your emotional intelligence must be or near to nil poi!
"They had to memorise the story by heart. A feat that was made possible by... audible - more on that later!"
Thank you for this. Your passionate storytelling of a tragic tale brought me to tears at the end. I hope you do more like this.
I would pay to get an "audio" book of you doing the entire Iliad.
It's important to remember that "hero" didn't necessarily mean "good guy" in ancient Greece. It more often meant "someone who was really really good at something", usually killing although heroes like Odysseus were heroized more for the their trickery.
I think a lot of people get confused when Hector, and not Achilles, is much more heroic in the modern sense.
Thank you. I need to get the etymology of "hero"; but doing so is so hard now, i can not find any decent dictionaries in this "internet age".
@@ClearOutSamskaras The Bible in Genesis 6 says the Nephilim (Giants who were the offspring of the Elohim) were the "Men of Renown" aka "Heroes" of old. Hero = Nephilim in the ancient antediluvian world; and after that. These heroes battling one another in a long and epic war before the flood as is recorded in the bible corresponds to the war of the Titans in greek myth. Could it be that the Iliad is about one big battle in that great war of the Titans? I just see some correspondence, perhaps, between the Iliad and the bible here. Perhaps the bible takes from the Iliad or vice versa OR they both describe an actual event... food for thought...
Except Hector wasn’t really heroic in the Iliad, only in the Troy version. Hector was a seriously mentally ill man in the story. He was far more obsessed with Achilles than the other way around until he kills Patroclus. Hector is a hero who collapses under the pressure of defending Troy from the Achaean host and descends into madness which corrupts his character.
People from 3000 years ago had a lot different sense of what it meant to be good guy
@Nikolai Apollonovich I have to go back and reread the text but I remember noting it in multiple conversations between heroes. Also, donning Achilles' armor was a highly irregular thing to do. I think that the weight of being the greatest hero for Troy and facing off multiple Achaeans who were either his equal or superior (Diomedes and Ajax being the most noteworthy) made Hector obsess with the greatest hero on the Achaean side. That being Achilles. He had some very curious lines of dialogue that I will have to go back and note but I remember this being the case. Hector was nowhere near as noble or pragmatic as the movie suggests
I have seen like a hundred of your videos , sometimes upvoting sometimes not rarely ever commenting but thisvideo really touched my heart and I could really tell the passion you have for this epic poem.I just wanted to say thank you for doing this it really made me feel something.
I think this is one of my favorite videos of yours. Ever since I found your channel around 10 years ago. I think you really found some of the deep insight of this piece of art, and you delivered it beautifully.
It's in the very first line: "Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus". That's what it is about: Achilleus anger.
I think the glory of war vs tragedy of war is best brought out in the lines about Hector's farewell to his baby son, his helmet being a symbol for all the cruelty of war, scaring his son. He is literally covering his face in a mask of war, made from metal, from dead matter. He puts it down just to pick up his son and keep it in his arms for a moment before he puts it back on to go fight Achilleus. It is the opposite of what Priam does, who comes to Achilleus unmasked, honest. But Hector does not have any choice, he is a hero, as he tells his wife, and must fight for glory. Does he though? As all greek heroes he is trapped in his destiny because he has to follow his nature.
Anyway, those are my thoughts (though I'm sure others have made these points better than I can). Thanks.
Interestingly, the first 5 lines usually were the frame. It's a prayer to the goddess to sing through the minstrel of these deeds. The first word in the first lines were the topic. 'Menin' the first word means anger. So yeah that's what its about. Similarly in the Odyssee the first word is 'Andra', man. It is about the man Odysseus.
@Daniel McGrath If you think the poem is about Hector or that Achilles is a psychopathic invader you really don't understand what's going on.
Achilles was the better warrior but Hector was the better man. The whole story begins by telling how much tragedy, death and suffering the anger and egoism of Achilles brought to the Achaeans.
I like Lindys presentations but this one starts with a bit of a strawman. I dont think moist people go into the illiad thinking it is the totality of the trojan war cycle going back to peleas' wedding or the judgement of Paris.
@@Hoi4o Hector is jusr a pampered prince at a slave trading post
Lloyd's sincerity in this video is genuinely amazing. I will re-read the book because of it.
The Song of Achilles is better than re-reading the Iliad, although it's a modern book not historical source.
No it's not. @@sadrien
You earned my viewership. Thanks for the content.
Great synopsis. I recently finished reading it so those scenes were fresh in my mind but you brought me tears about the scene with Priam. Well done.
These special effects are breathtaking.
It feels like Lindy was just about to burst into tears as he explains the true meaning of the Iliad. Too bad he ended the video just before he reached his limit.
The burning of the Great Library of Alexandria does in fact make me wince every time it's referenced. It is like a physical pain, all I can say is... Alas.
I’ve watched this video many times since you posted it, often coming back to it weeks, or even months, later. For some reason the tragedy of Iphidamas resonates with me and I very much appreciate your discussion of the juxtaposition between the glorification of fears of arms and the utter waste and pointless destruction.
That beginning summary was possibly the most British explanation of the Iliad in existence
_King Menelaius:_ *"Oi!!!"*
_Agememnon:_ *"Right, we're not having any of this!"*
I laughed so hard I couldn't breathe and I spit coffee on my phone 😂😂😂
Straight out of Monty Python..
@@radofficial4672 "He is not the prince of Troy, he is a very naughty boy! This calls for the Achaean people's front! And furthermore, what 'ave the Trojans ever done for us?"
Historical point =
Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey speaks only of Danaans, Achaeans, Argians and not of Greeks.
The Hellenes (tribe of Southern Thessaly also called Argos Pelasgians), at his time, did not constitute yet a people or a Nation (Thucydides I,3).
He affirms in the Iliad that "Zeus is Pelasgians and dodonean" (XVI,234).
Precisely these Pelasgians (🇦🇱) were considered by all the ancient Greek authors as "the first inhabitants of Greece" before "The arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷)"!
Another word that was misunderstood or glossed over. Indeed the Greeks arrived from somewhere because they were not indigenous.
As they did not come from the North ( one wanted to make us believe the opposite), they could only be foreigners coming from elsewhere.
It is this elsewhere which is difficult to define very precisely. But the legends, which are only embellished, idealized or metaphorized historical facts, give us some precious indications on the first foreign ethnic groups having occupied the country of the Pelasgians: the Danaans (Egyptians from whom the Dorians descend), the Cadmeans (Phoenicians) and the Pelopides (Assyrians).
Among the peoples of archaic Greece the Ionians, Aeolians and Arcadians were descendants of the Pelasgians, indigenous populations conquered by the Hellenic invaders: they could claim to be indigenous populations.
All the ancient authors, including Homer, Hesiod, Hecateus of Miletus, Acousilaos, Hellanicos, Herodotus, Thucydides or Ephorus, inform us succinctly but sufficiently to affirm that before the arrival of the Greeks the Pelasges (🇦🇱) occupied the country that was to become Greece.
They also claim that these Pelasges were not Greeks but "Barbaros" i.e. not speaking Greek and, finally, that they LEGAVED TO THE GREEKS A LARGE PART OF THEIR CULTES AND DIVINE.
Example: So, everyone has learned (at school etc ...) that Zeus was a Greek god, right?
But why in the books of Homer (the basis of the bases!) we never see the so-called "Greek Zeus, Mycenaean Zeus or Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
Here is what Achilles (the greatest warrior of the Trojan War) tells us about Zeus =
Achilles: - "Zeus, sovereign lord, O Dodonian prince, O you Pelasgic Zeus (🇦🇱), distant god who reigns over Dodona, in this harsh land of the Stool... "
Source : Homer ( Iliad, XVI, 233/234 )
Achilles did not say " O you Zeus the Greek, O you Zeus the Mycenaean or O you Zeus the Hellenic etc ... "
So why did they tell us that Zeus was a Greek?
With this alone, we can see that modern historiography is not honest!
Zeus = Zâ, Zani ( gheg ), Zê, Zeri ( Tosk )
Before securing power over the other gods, Zeus was the god of the luminous sky, of atmospheric phenomena (clouds, rain, wind, lightning, thunder).
It was said of him "Zeus rains or Zeus thunders". With Homer and Hesiod, he acquired a preeminent role among the gods of Olympus and a place of choice in the mytological cosmogony.
Some say that the name Zeus evokes the Sanskrit root "Dyaus" meaning "the day" (Latin Dies). However Homer states that "Zeus is Pelasgic 🇦🇱 and Dodonean" ( Iliad XVI,234).
The oldest sanctuary, dedicated by the Pelasges to Zeus, is that of Dodone, in Thesprotia (ancient Pelasgia, called Epirus, the 5th century) .
In Dodona was a sacred oak whose rustling leaves were interpreted by the oracle as the "VOICE" of Zeus.
The attributes of Zeus are the Eagle, the Lightning and the Scepter. Moreover, lightning means "thunder", thus "noise" or "voice".
Thus the name of Zeus can be explained by the Albanian "Zâ, Zani, the "voice", the verb".
With the arrival of the Hellenes (🇬🇷) this oracle lost its importance to Delphi, the "Greek" sanctuary (of Apollo) par excellence.
It should be noted that in Albania, God is called Zot (Zeus = Zojz = Zot), all religions combined. Moreover the expression "by Zeus" (who forgives) is always used there "për zotën".
Porphyry (Life of Pythagoras) reports that Pythagoras used "Zan" to designate Zeus! )
This alone is enough to convince us that a great civilization, not Greek, existed WELL BEFORE THE ARRIVAL OF THE HELLENES (🇬🇷)
Neibhur (FOUNDER OF THE MODERN SCHOOL OF ANCIENT HISTORY!):
"The name Pelasgians was probably that of a nation and, in any case, THE GREEK EXPLANATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT ARE ABSURD!"
Source: The History of Rome Volume I, p.507
It is the meaning of this famous word "ARRIVED" that the modern authors (majority) did not quite seize (or occulted).
Everything has been said and its opposite on this subject. Until the discovery of the so-called Mycenaean tablets, "deciphered" by Ventris and Chadwick, the doubt remained in their minds!
But as soon as these two scholars decreed that the Mycenaean linear B (in reality Pelasgians!) was of the old Greek, all rocked in favor of the thesis of the continuity of the two civilizations (Mycenaean and Greek) and this in spite of FOUR CENTURIES, I repeat "FOUR CENTURIES !!!! "of MAGISTRATIC SILENCE!
It is this theory that Mathieu Aref dismantles with arguments to SUPPORT because nobody suspected that this Mycenaean (total invention of Schliemann, who is not even an archaeologist but a Businessman! ) was none other than ancient Pelasgians (opinion of the Ancient Authors!) from which is derived, in part, the ancient Greek.
Moreover of other flagrant argument comes to corroborate this last thesis:
According to Herodotus ( I,57- VIII, 44- VII,95) the Ionians were Pelasgians (🇦🇱) become Hellenes (🇬🇷) by adopting the Greek language!
The ethnonym "Ion" derives from the Pelasgic 🇦🇱 "I onë" ( in Albanian, I jonë ) meaning "ours", that is, by extension, "the one who is ( or was ) part of our family, of our ethnic group" .
The assertion of Herodotus, according to which the Athenians and the inhabitants of Attica were of Pelasgic origin, is, before, confirmed by Hecateus of Miletus and, later, by Hellanicos of Mytilèbe (Lesbos) and other ancient authors.
Curiously Thucydides, whose chauvinism is not any more to be shown, affirms that Pelops (conqueror of Peloponnese) was a was a foreigner come from Asia (I, 5): the only time when it evokes the foreign origin of one of its a
- Therefore, the ancestors of the present Albanians, the Pelasgians, lived during the prehistoric periods in most of the then known world, developing a very important civilization and building works of exceptional value".
Source: Great Greek Encyclopedia (Athens, volume. XIX p.873)
- "Pelasgians, very ancient people living during the prehistoric period in Greece, in the Archipelago, on the coasts of Asia Minor and Italy. It is generally considered that the ancient Illyrians, Thracians, Phrygians, Lydians, Etruscans, Epirotes (...) and Albanians of today are the main branches of the Pelasgians".
Source : Petit journal Larousse (Paris, 1950, p.1599)
Karl O.Müller ( is a German archaeologist and mythologist )
: - The more the intelligence will enter the history of Greece, the more the attention will return on the element Pelasgians sacrificed until now .
(Prolegomena - 1825)
"Will enter" "Pelasgians", "sacrificed"
That might be my favourite video. Well explained, your heart into it, just great.
Beautiful synopsis and assessment of the story. Thank you for making this video.
+Lindybeige you seem really touched by the scene with Priamos and Achilles. It looks like it gives you goosebumps and wets your eyes. Begging was a sacred thing in ancient greece, especially in the times of the homeric poems, in the (almost) mythological past of greeks. There are a lot of examples of begging taking place in numerous tragedies who mostly take place back in this mythological past of Ancient Greeks, and refusing to help a begging person was considered hubris. In greek we call it "Ikesia" . So you are right indeed.
do a video on the epic of Gilgamesh
Carlys What about the epic of Gargamel?
Oskales The First not so epic
ancient recitations did one on that
Darmok and Jilad at Tanagra.
Here I am. What did I miss?
Really enjoyed your summary of this book. I recently bought it and have plans to read it, after reading Don Quixote for the first time. You have me excited to explore the Illiad and I hope you continue to do these v-blogs. Its fun to see someone so jazzed about the classical period. Thanks very much for taking the time.
Love your chill delivery actually... it works for you
In Bulgaria, Iliad is studied in 9th grade, especially 1,2,18,22,24 songs and every Bulgarian knows what is about. The epic poem is based on folklore cycle, which include much larger period of time. Also Iliad is excellent manual how warriors fought in late bronze age.
Yes, physical and spiritual beauty and beauty they perceive as symmetry of forms. :)
They did like to strip gear off of fallen foes, didn't they?
Bill lupin They did that well into the Napoleonic era, just over 100 years ago.
You might be able to get 1 out of 20 American high school students to read any long book without pictures.
Artificial Avocado is that really true about 1 in 20 high school students. As statistic that would probably still be quite a lot.
There's an ancient poem which goes deeper into the tragedy of war, and not from the perspective of the futile sacrifice of noble warriors. One that criticizes the mentality of an honor-obsessed warrior culture and details what happens to civilians who get caught in the crossfire.
I'm speaking of the poem of Erra and Ishum, a mythologized account of the Bronze Age Collapse much like the Iliad that was written in the late Babylonian period. The tl;dr summary is that the god of war Erra feels disrespected by the other gods and lays waste to the land in order to get the respect he feels he deserves. War in this poem is an impersonal force that simply slaughters indiscriminately.
"O warrior Erra, you have put the righteous man to death,
"You have put the unrighteous man to death,
"He who sinned against you, you put him to death,
" He who did not sin against you, you put him to death,
"The high priest, assiduous with divine offerings, you put to death,
"The functionary who served the king you put to death,
"The old man on the doorstep you put to death,
"The young girls in the bedrooms you put to death,
"Even then you found no appeasement whatsoever!
"Even then when you told yourself,'They hold me in contempt!'
"Even then you said to yourself, O warrior Erra,
'I will strike down the mighty, I will terrorize the weak,
'I will kill the commander, I will scatter the troops,
'I will wreck the temple's sacred chamber, the rampart's battlement, the pride of the city I will destroy!
'I will tear out the mooring pole so the ship difts away,
'I will smash the rudder so she cannot reach the shore,
'I will pluck out the mast, I will rip out the rigging.
'I will make breasts go dry so babies cannot thrive,
'I will block up springs so that even little channels can bring no life-sustaining water,
'I will make hell shake and heaven tremble,
'I will make the planets shed their splendor, I will wrench out the stars from the sky,
'I will hack the tree's roots, so its branches cannot burgeon,
'I will wreck the wall's foundation so its top tumbles,
'I will approach the dwelling of the king of the gods, that no direction be forthcoming."
The warrior Erra heard him.
The speech that Ishum made pleased him like finest oil.
Thus spoke the warrior Erra.
"The Sealander, the Sealander, Subartu Subartu, Assyrian Assyrian,
"Elamite Elamite, Kassite Kassite,
"Sutean Sutean, Gutian Gutian,
"Lullubaean Lullubaean, land land, city city,
"House house, man man, brother brother must not spare one another, let them kill each other!
Then, afterwards, let the Akkadian arise to slay them all, to rule them, everyone."
This is amazing. I love your delivery and energy. And this was really helpful and fun at the same time! BIG THANKS!
I gotta say man, I keep returning to this vid. Its well done and it just resonates with me. Well done
10:32 not finding peace and battling with a river sounds like battling a river of tears... - PTSD?
Yes, exactly. The book Achilles in Vietnam explores this in depth. Very good read.
@Skyler S. He wrekt the river though.
Omg, just occurred to me what a song I really like could well be about. The Humbling River by Puscifer, it could be about Achilles (man's) inability to find solace in spite of great victories and triumphs. He cannot cross the river because he is not at peace with himself. But together, showing humanity, 'we' can cross the river. Holy shit, I think that's it. Thank you! The song and lyrics in case anyone is interested:
czcams.com/video/O0YxeTjFn70/video.html
Nature, nurture heaven and home
Sum of all, and by them, driven
To conquer every mountain shown
But I've never crossed the river
Braved the forests, braved the stone
Braved the icy winds and fire
Braved and beat them on my own
Yet I'm helpless by the river
Angel, angel, what have I done?
I've faced the quakes, the wind, the fire
I've conquered country, crown, and throne
Why can't I cross this river?
Angel, angel, what have I done?
I've faced the quakes, the wind, the fire
I've conquered country, crown, and throne
Why can't I cross this river?
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
It'll take a lot more than words and guns
A whole lot more than riches and muscle
The hands of the many must join as one
And together we'll cross the river
It'll take a lot more than words and guns
A whole lot more than riches and muscle
The hands of the many must join as one
And together we'll cross the river
Nature, nurture heaven and home
It'll take a lot more than words and guns
Sum of all, and by them, driven
A whole lot more than riches and muscle
To conquer every mountain shown
The hands of the many must join as one
And together we'll cross the river
Braved the forests, braved the stone
It'll take a lot more than words and guns
Braved the icy winds and fire
A whole lot more than riches and muscle
Braved and beat them on my own
The hands of the many must join as one
And together we'll cross the river
And together we'll cross the river
And together we'll cross the river
Nature, nurture heaven and home
And together we'll cross the river
And together we'll cross the river
Nature, nurture heaven and home
And together we'll cross the river
And together we'll cross the river
@@skullsaintdead It does make sense, there are even some identity struggle undertones.
And the fire is the rage, battling each other?
You're awfully good at reading this stuff out loud, and your thoughts on it are insightful. Thank you for sharing this with us.
Love this. Thanks Lindy. I feel your emotion. I'm glad I'm not alone. Some moments amongst these classics are just devastatingly powerful.
I have for such a long time watched your posts as and when they appeared in my recommended list, I always enjoyed them but until yesterday I hadn't subscribed; shame on me.
There have been times when I was going to comment but didn't thinking perhaps that you had no need of yet another complement, again, for shame.
This post however was exceptional, not so much in that it moved me (they usually do); but the way your compassion affected you. It takes a strong man.
Many congratulations to you and the success of your channel and many thanks,
Julian
"You can tell how middle class you are by how aggrieved you are…"
I find this fascinating about British culture. I first noticed it watching _Would I Lie to You?_ wherein David Mitchell is frequently described by Lee Mack as "middle class". It's really interesting, because it's synonymous with what most English speakers outside of the UK would call upper class, or more likely just "posh". Middle class is, for the rest of us, just synonymous with the average person, since we don't have quite the same history of class rigidity.
+Jim Cullen (Zagorath) Definitely. When he mentioned the middle class bit, I was confused, and really I just though "must be a British thing".
***** haha yeah, that's another one. They use the term "state school" for what the rest of us call a public school (though, at least here in Australia, _both_ public school and state school get used: to refer to the same thing).
Never would I thought I'll tear at a lindybeige video
Wow. I loved that! I listened to you till the last second! Thanks
Powerfully performed. Always enjoy your work. Please continue
Great analysis, but I felt the reasons for Achilles' initial withdrawal from the battle were breezed over a bit. It's a conflict over spoils of war, and Achilles withdraws over pride - which is repaid with loss of his dearest companion. That's worth going into a bit. Also the interference and motivations of the gods.
Not so much pride more like theft as his spoils were stolen by someone he was working for at a time when the war conventions were you keep what you take Achilles is described and treated more like a famous mercenary captain than as a greek ruler who joined a war for glory not to serve a ruler who was not his own
It was not just about pride and some material spoils - it was about a Briseis, a woman that Achilles was seeing as his bride and that was taken by Agamemnon from him.
The war was being fought because a woman , Helen , had been unfairly taken from Menelaus and Agamemnon was unfairly taking Briseis from Achilles. The hypocrisy was outrageous and Achilles had not taken the oath to protect Menelaus' claim. He was free to withhold himself from the fight. His choice lead to the death of his friend, Patroclus. He externalized his guilt and projected his anger at himself upon Hector who was just being a good soldier for Troy. Priam's bravery and love for his son brought Achilles back to his senses.
Achilles didn't really care for the spoils of war. He did care about what the spoils represent. Achilles does attack the unfairness of him fighting and not getting rewarded properly. But he accepted that in the past. And once he lost Briseis, he gave up on getting her back. What he really wanted is Agamemnon to be dishonored. Why does he care so much? Because he knew he would die young and he only was able to accept this because he would be immortalized by his honor/fame/kleos. Achilles not only accepts losing Brisies, he also accept his own death. Why? Because the compensation would be that we would still be talking about him for thousands and thousands of years, which we are. Yes, Achilles criticisms the way their society operates, which we as modern humans can relate to. But that was just the best rhetorical device available. Achilles couldn't have based his argument on the fact that he deserved everlasting glory/kleos. Only later grief and revenge replace his feelings and motivations. In the end, Achilles is restless and empty and simply dies. Achilles is a tragic hero. After Patroclus dies, he no longer cares for glory/kleos and still accepts his own death being near, because it will end his grief/nihilism. Especially in the end when Achilles meets with Priam, he again realizes both sides are the same and this conflict is completely pointless and that he can never get what he wants or be happy. He just gives up and dies.
Achilles withdrew because he saw the Trojans
C A T A L O G U E O F S H I P S
I have not read The Iliad for 45 years. Your description and summing up of it was quickly done, yet it was also very moving and I greatly appreciate that. It's funny that today, after a couple of long car rides with the radio on in which a number of songs focused on forgiveness, that I should find your video. It feels like a message is being sent to me. Again, many thanks.
Phenomenal video. So good. So deep. Thanks Lindybeige.
I'm not intellectual but I'm wiser for this, a CZcams Reader's digest for the ear. Thank you so much Lindybeige.
If history and literature teachers speaks about their subject your way, pretty sure we would have more people interested on history and literature.
+ApexPredator_ What's wrong? You don't like to hear about how white people have oppressed everyone else throughout history, resulting in white privilege today? Are you a racist?!
ಠ_ಠ
Excellent video! I'm a Greek who loves History and Mythology and there was a subject in Highschool called Homer's Iliad, so I'd like to tell you how wonderfull this story is, an epos. In a few lines, Homer can describe a fight with so nice words and you sympathise with the one who is killed (exactly what you said). In general, by reading Iliad you will understand the mentality of the ancient Greeks, what was important to them at that time and many other things. There are also a lot of great scenes (for example when Hector says the final goodbye to his wife Andromache or the scene that Lindybeige described). Homer uses various techniques to make the reader continue reading and not be bored. So I definitely recommemd that you read Iliad and Odyssey as well, which is the second of Homer's epics and the continuation of Iliad and of course it's a great book to read.
(For anybody who is curious, the Trojan horse appears in Aeneid, which wasn't written by Homer but Virgil, a Roman poet. He describes what happened after the Trojan war and the story is told by Aeneas, a Trojan who went to Italy when the war ended.)
I stumbled across this old gem. Sir, amongst the many hours I have listened to your content, this was the most moving and impactful. By far. Thank you.
Marvellous explanation. You are a damn fine storyteller and educator Sir! Love your work here on YT.
Is that a 100'000 thousand subs thing from youtube on the back wall?
Yes.
+John12494 You picked that out of this video to comment on? O.o
You picked that comment to comment on?
+bren cav his best video tbh
Best video of Lindybeige I have seen so far.
''OI''
''You're right, we're not having this!''
Your passion and insight are very endearing. I enjoyed this from start to finish.
Story time with Lindy 11/10.
You looked like you were about to cry. I felt the same way. Great video.
Wow, I've been loving fishing through your content after not checking in for a number of years, and this has got to be one of my favorite videos of yours. Bravo
Excellent and excellently presented.
Lloyd, this is your best work.
There was a tear in your eye as you iterated Achiles's and Priam's meeting. Almoast had one myself. Cheers!
a really good summary & poignant explanation. BRAVO!
Thanks Nikolas. Another riveting talk.
I used to reenact Achilleus' and Hector's combat when I was little. I clearly remember pretending to be dead and wobbling on the floor as if dragged by a chariot.
RyanRyzzo
I hope you feel much better now. Having been dragged behind a chariot and all that🤕☺. My play acting wasn't half as classical as yours. Cos when you're shot several times by a mouth machine gun, you just lay there, and then you revive for the next battle. 😊😊
You've been posting a lot of videos lately, Lloyd! I am glad to see that!
Beautifully put
This was truly well done!
this may be the best video you've ever done
Well done, Lindybeige. Well done.
Very nice. Took me two or three classics classes on the subject and several readings before that light of understanding started flickering above my head. Good stuff.
I just read this masterwork. Lindybeige's analysis is spot on!