New Study: The Value of Collagen Protein | Educational Video | Biolayne
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2023
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Layne, please don't be that guy. The study has no mention of collagen peptides, only collagen, an important distiction because collagen is notoriously hard to digest (it's a proline rich protein like gluten and casein), and we don't know which collagen was provided. Some have as low as 27% absorption rate, while hydrolyzed collagen has 90%+. It would be interesting to see the difference with collagen peptides.
Our gut can more easily absorb peptides, dipeptides and even tripeptides than longer chain aminoacids, so it's not like a protein's amino profile is the only metric of its usefulness, its digestibility should be considered.
As you know, collagen is our body's most abundant protein (25-35% total protein), our joints are 85-90% collagen, our skin is 70-80% collagen, cartillage is 50%, bones are 30-40% and connective tissue is only 25-35%. Skeletal muscles, on the other hand, are barely 1% collagen, so any study that "debunks" myofibrillar protein synthesis is mostly wasting time. I mean, was there any metric of connective tissue damage during the exercise?
Compared to whey protein, collagen is going to suck for muscle protein synthesis. On the other hand, whey protein has barely any glycine and proline compared to collagen (even if they can be obtained from its other aminoacids, it takes effort). So for the purpose of joints, skin, cartillage, bones and connective tissue health, collagen peptides still make a lot of sense.
He didn’t even mention glycine for collagen synthesis, it’s like he’s unaware of those studies. Also how glycine balances out the excess methathione in our diets
@@HocDollidayhe isn't an expert on everything. I think he may be over-reaching here.
You didn't read the study. They used "collagen protein hydrolysate (ATRO ProVita GmbH, Germany)" www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10487367/
Alright, it's not collagen of hydrolysats. It's not AS digest, according to you up to 70% less than the hydrolysats (let's consider the smallest on market, 3000 Daltons). But did you pay attention to the dosage in the study? 30g. That big enough to reveal a significative difference in connective tissues recovery, considering the industry is claiming *considerable* benefits with a dosage of 5-10g.
Is there any evidence that supplement with collagen peptides actually do anything?
I had elbows joint pain that didn't go away for months, once started taking 20g of collagen peptides daily the pain completely gone in weeks and never came back. My skin also looks slighty better. It might be placebo effect but as long as the pain is gone and not coming back i will continue to take it.
Layne, it's worth noting that recent studies suggest it's actually collagen peptides-small molecular weight collagen-that can boost collagen production in skin and connective tissue, not whole collagen. Might be worth revisiting the topic with this in mind!
Link?
@@gideon-af pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36516059/
this research not mension connective tissue
@@betorezende7645 Skin improvements are a strong sign that this approach works for connective tissue (e.g. cartilage) as well. The overall cellular machinery and biochemical pathway for collagen production are basically identical in both. Layne would definitely be aware of this.
Why is it worth noting? Because the 9 of the 12 “study” participants filled out a survey, selecting “improved skin elasticity” instead of “no noticeable improvement”?
Also, just to help you look (edit: even more) knowledgeable, like the scientist & clinician Dave, the technical term is “stimulate”, not “boost” ... 😝
This study only looks at the acute effect of a single administration of collagen in the MUSCLE connective tissue. It says nothing about the effect of chronic supplementation on joint and cartilage connective tissue.
Hi Layne, just FYI, your opening panel at 00:04 says "Does training time matter when fasting?" vs collagen protein.
Lame made a mistake?!?! Impossible!
That is very funny. I missed that.
I could see making a video on this. 😂
Layne, you may want to review the research by the folks at Gelita, showing that the molecular weights of specific collagen peptides increases muscle mass and strength in both young and old. They also have a nice study showing that their specific molecular weight peptides also induce multiple protein synthesis pathways when compared to whey protein.
@MoodMindMemory If you have some references, that'd be cool. Thanks.
I don't believe in their "bioactive peptides" story. They have like 5 or more specific peptides for bones, cartilage, tendons etc.... Nah I am not buying it. Basically they have only one product and they used it in different contexts to verify each hypothesis.
Hey Layne, love your videos. Thankyou!
Also. Can I ask what mic you use for your videos??
Understanding protein digestion is the reason I was never a believer in collagen peptides. However, because of so many anecdotal reports, I decided I would try collagen peptides. My hair and nails grow faster. My skin complexion looks better. My joints feel ALOT better while lifting and post workout; noticeably better. Due to this, I’ve bought more bovine collagen peptides. I know, it’s my anecdote, but like I said, I “poo pooed” the idea of collagen for years because of my understanding of protein digestion. Now I continue to take 10-20g of collagen peptides a day.
Most people's understanding of protein digestion is flawed. Because bioactive peptides are not taught. They're a big reason why certain proteins have the effects they do. Collagen ingestion results in the absorption of small amounts of di- and tri-peptides, which are signalling molecules. They push fibroblasts and other cells to increase collagen synthesis. Among other effects.
Great video! Many thanks for shariing Layne
I took collagen alongside whey when after my surgeries. The incision closed fast and my muscle mass did not decrease as much during recovery
You were immediately critical of collagen supplements when they came out? Dude, I remember seeing them at GNC in 1992...when you were 10 years old. Props to you being that knowledgeable so young!
He’s like Doogie Houser
Doogie was 16yo in real life on the show. I don’t think he’s referring to Weiders 1st rendition but rather when it became something worth noting. In college 25yrs ago I managed a GNC & collagen was not on the list of something we were aware of in terms of making sales like say a ‘hair skin nail complex’ or for joints it was shark cartilage + MSM/CC + vit C, or GNC joint formula. NO COLLAGEN powder. So 1992. Nope 👎
Oops
@musclemedicine_M.D there was cherry flavored liquid collagen protein at GNC in 1992, maybe even earlier. Just because you don't remember seeing it among all the other products 25 years ago when 1992 is actually 6 years before you were a manager doesn't mean it didn't exist then. And it was right by all the other bodybuilding supplements.
Same guy used to sell BCAAS
Always love getting the straight scoop from Layne! Much appreciated!
Scoop. I see what you did there.
He misrepresented the study.
I make my own beef broth from grass raised beef bones.
You can see a thick layer of cologne that rises to the top. Velvety texture, great flavor etc.
I suggest making your own.
Collagen is absorbed as di and tri peptides, not only as individual amino acids. More substrate also shifts the chemical balance towards the end product and makes it easier to catalyze a chemical reaction.
Correct. At least your first sentence.
Physionic responded to Dr. Layne Norton and so far the evidence of what he have so far is leaning more that Collagen Protein does work. Please watch his video.
Doing it for you ♥️ thanks for all you do.
Hey Layne,
And what about benefits for skin, hair and nails? Is it worth it or no?
Thank you Layne! Great to know that I can come here to focus on what the data suggest. Any insight on collagen supplementation for hair, skin, and nails? Seems to be largely talked about these days. Appreciate all that you do for this industry 🫡
Ty for presenting this info
Yeah. I’ve been doing Collagen for about 3 years. I’m 55 and I don’t suffer from any joint pain at all. I’m a plumber by trade and I go to the gym on a regular basis. Since I’ve been using Collagen, that has been my experience and I’m sticking to it.
You have a lot to say for a “one study” results….
Yeah. I’ve been doing shots of bleach for about 3 years. I’m 55 and I don’t suffer from any pain at all. I’m a dipstick by trade and I go to the gym on a regular basis. Since I’ve been using Collagen, that has been my experience and I’m sticking to it.
@@comedyguy911
Lol!
It takes a dipstick to know a dipstick!!!
Bleach shots does wonders for stained teeth. 😁
Im 58 and I havent taken collagen in my life- no joint pain… Bodybuilder turned Powerlifter..
You may have not taken Collagen supplements but you have certainly consumed it through the food that you eat.
Collagen is a small part of what I do to maintain optimum health. I feel it has been a benefit to me and will continue.
Comparing it to bleach is inaccurate as it gets.
Collagen when mixed with small amount of water, you can almost see turn into a jello like substance. I know the digestive process brakes it down, but your body will process a portion of it.
While I don't expect collagen supps to work, I'm curious if the stimulus was sufficient. For instance, were subjects doing something like kneesovertoesguy's knee program? Was it done over long enough period to see results?
Really respect your scientific approach. I know the video was looking at collagen supplements for connective tissue - but as you mentioned early on, many women are taking collagen for hair, skin and nails - more of a beauty aspect. Any thoughts on that either way? Thx always.
Yeah, everyone I know puts collagen in their coffee to make their skin stay and look younger.
Love to hear Layne's thoughts on this
Me too.
Yeah, this was the only use I had ever heard for collagen. This video was the first time I've heard of someone trying to use it for muscle.
@@Ryan-wx1bi 😂 ... a lot for you to learn! Start by buying collagen supplements from me :-) you’re on the right track!
thanks for the video! but what about the efficacy of collagen for skin and hair health?
What about for skin health? I've been taking 11g per day and it's done a bit to firm up my skin quite a bit
For the logarithm and all the great content
What would you recommend as the best protein source for someone allergic to whey and eggs?
Thanks for the science! No click bait
The study participant were young also study was very small, n=45. Do you think we would similar results in an older population where collagen synthesis is reduced. Also how is it we see studies which show improved joint pain and mobility and improved skin elasticity with collagen supplementation if supplementation does not impact collagen synthesis?
I mix a full spectrum protein shake and include collagen, sometime collagen type II, and sometimes type I and III. So hypothetically it may work because of the type of collagen and because the leucin in my protein will activate my collagen. So you are right, but my real life experience could also be. More studies needed.
Always good knowledge here 😊
Wow, one whole study
Glad to get solid info on this.
I use a electrolye product that has collagen, so even if it only helps my skin thats enough for me.
Did people really replace their whey with collagen? Or just take collagen along side whey.
Thanks Layne
ah man there was a V'shred ad right before your video. oh well lol
Can someone please post a link to the study
I have to search for your vids each time, this algorithm thing is a nuisance. Im almost tempted to just use the notification bell, which i despise 😂
Ive used collegen protein daily for about 2 years in conjunction with omega 3 and glucosamine supplementation. Ive found the omega 3 to be the most effective for joint health but noticed the collegen has done wonders for my skin. I'll continue using collegen for the skin benefits alone.
Please, we’re a small and non-influential group here on CZcams. Instead, take your findings to Harvard’s Chan School of Public Health - they could really use your help, and together, you can change the world! If you can maybe mention anti-aging, in particular ... and don’t forget the mechanism: “stimulates”.
@@Olehenrydont you forget to mention stimulation…. Oh no you havent you’ve mentioned it her 1000 times already 😂
How can you know if it was the omega 3 or the collagen powder who did the effect if you were taking them together? Doesn't make any sense
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@leotravel85 because I didn't start taking them together and over 2 years I've sometimes run out of some. I'm not selling anything and this is just anecdotal but yeah I'm happy with better skin.
Can you please provide feedback on whey vs egg white protein supplement?
Comment for Layne. Thanks for the info.
Did the study account for vitamin c intake as well. I’ve heard through some sources that it’s needed for collagen synthesis/production so just wondering about that and your take on if that’s true or not
Both C and Mg
No it did not. one of three groups ingesting either 30 g whey protein (WHEY, n = 15), 30 g collagen protein (COLL, n = 15) or a non-caloric placebo (PLA, n = 15).
@@helios4425 Yep, and:
"Muscle connective protein synthesis rates averaged 0.072 ± 0.019, 0.068 ± 0.017, and 0.058 ± 0.018 %/h in WHEY, COLL and PLA, respectively, with no significant differences between groups (P = 0.09)."
Still, there's that non significant upward trend. With P = 0.09, maybe possibly perhaps with more subjects, it would get below 0.05. But whey is higher than collagen anyway.
I found this one, with casein working:
"Exercise Plus Presleep Protein Ingestion Increases Overnight Muscle Connective Tissue Protein Synthesis Rates in Healthy Older Men" 2021 p < .01
Excellent point
@helios4425
Collagen is hard to digest. That's why we always supplement with hydrolyzed collagen.
But there's another factor too.
Have you realized that a tendon injury need at least 7 times more time to mend than a muscle injury?
They probably didn't take into account that collagen synthesis is that much slower than muscle protein synthesis.
And they missed that their 30 g of collagen probably resulted in less than 10 g digested amino acids.
They actually removed 2/3 of the protein, and expected something being built!
oof course, not all those amino acids goes to building collagen.
The way to do it is to eat your Whey as you probably do. And an additional 10% as hydrolized collagen.
They you get both muscle, facia, and tendons!
Thanks for this I really am surprised by this information. I was taking this supplement for my joint health because that’s what I thought a benefit was.
A systematic review of 15 randomised controlled trials including 656 participants did show collagen supplementation did help with reducing joint pain and improving functionality, also showed that collagen supplementation improved collagen synthesis when combined with vitamin c. The study he is discussing is just a single study with 45 people. I wouldn’t toss it out just yet
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8521576/
What about type 2 collagen peptides? Do any supplements generate connective tissue synthesis?
Once again Lame misses the mark. Collagen has not been positioned for muscle mass in the marketplace. There is plenty of supporting research for skin quality / health.
Is there still value in taking collagen for skin benefits (e.g. thickness?)
What is recommended for people who have intolerance to whey and soy products?
Is there something to help with connective tissue synthesis? Please and thank you!
For Layne!
Perhaps placebo, but I've had significant improvements in mobility where I can finally do deep squats and hip rotations without snap, crackle and pop along with significant pain. PT for long period of time didn't succeed until I finally added the Collagen Peptides. In addition, I'd been struggling with NAFLD, taking NAC along side Collagen Peptides for the Glycine has greatly improved my liver markers over the last year. Even if Collagen Peptides do not increase muscle mass during strength/resistance training, I still find the other affects to be significant in my own life.
What about collagen for skin elasticity though? If it tightens skin during weight loss, that makes it worth taking.
Where can I find the study, please?
I just started taking collagen peptide about a week ago because I've been suffering from tendonitis in both elbows and forearm and triceps tendon for about a month and a half and after a week of taking collagen peptide along with vitamin C and isometric exercises I am finally starting to feel better and not in pain....so I don't know,...seems to work to me
So what’s a good joint recovery supplement that ACTUALLY works?
does growth hormone (exogenous) increase or strenghten the connectvie tissue and joint?
Thank you
thank you
What are your thoughts on beef and egg white protein powder?
so what supplements do you recommend for us aging folks with joint and connective tissue issues?
Casein works here, post exercise. "Exercise Plus Presleep Protein Ingestion Increases Overnight Muscle Connective Tissue Protein Synthesis Rates in Healthy Older Men" 2021
I was skeptical of collagen but started taking it for skin, nail, and hair health to see if there was any difference. It has dramatically improved all three. Like with creatine, repetition over time is the key. For the benefits and cost, throwing 10g a day into a shake is easy and well worth it.
Any proteins will do that
Already was taking whey pre and post, only change was adding collagen. N=1 but I noticed a difference without having to strain to find one, similar to creatine. @@FerintoshFarmsPhotography
@@FerintoshFarmsPhotography Nope. I had dry flaky skin around my nose/eyes for periods of time for multiple years. I thought I was allergic to some food but could never figure it out. Now it has been totally gone for many weeks and skin is totally normal. Only things I think I have added to diet was collagen, vitamin-a and taurine. I bet it's either the collagen or vitamin-a that did the trick, or both. I have taken other proteins occasionally for years, whey, hemp etc. and none of them ever improved my skin.
@@cyberfunk3793 There is a theory in the alternative health circles that the high glycine in collagen helps specifically to rebuild the gut lining, helping to correct leaky gut syndrome, which ultimately helps with skin issues. There are other things that can help as well, such as slippery elm bark, Deglycyrrhizinated licorice, omega 3 fats, fasting, etc
@phxx8534 Hmmm, “skeptical” can’t be the right word. I believe “gullible” is what you meant.
Now that I’ve got your attention, what else can I interest you in? For the benefits (none) and cost (nickels and dimes only!), I can mix you up a nice collagen-stimulating cocktail!
What food or supplement helps connective tissue synthesis?
Nice work! Is there an effect of collagen on the skin?
Yes. There are at least 5 systematic reviews published that prove it. Common effects seen are increased hydration, fewer wrinkles, and increased elasticity.
What should we eat instead of Collagen for connective tissue health?
Great video. Do you have videos on leucine and cancer risk? I guess your take on Dr valter longo research
The screenshot of the study doesn't specify if they are using hydrolysed collagen. Seems to be an important detail that they've left out?
Any benefits for skin?
This guy clearly didn't do his homework. Hydrolyzed collagen is not a big protein and it's also not a single aminoacid but di- and tripeptides. Also, hydrolyzed collagen has been shown to improve skin collagen levels
Hi All, any views on Thomas DeLauer's video about collagen peptides? Posted about 4 months ago.
Thanks
So how to I strengthen my tendons
1st time not commenting for Al but fot Layne 😂
So what does trigger connective tissue growth/repair?
I get the argument about protein being broken down and the body building its own proteins but supposedly the idea is that certain amino acids tend to be quite low in a lot of protein sources (relative to total protein content) while being found in large amounts in collagen, such as glycine and proline. If you are eating very large amounts of protein, in particular animal protein (like g/lb of BW which is actually more than what you need to maximize protein synthesis), then collagen probably wouldn't make a difference. Also, we need to exercise in order to stimulate the production of collagen in a given joint and then it's just a question of whether the body has the building blocks it needs. This is kind of similar to the BCAA situation - if you are getting low amounts of them from your diet supplementation makes a difference but otherwise it doesn't
DOC please do a video on the dangers of Raw Fruitarian diets for children. There are children who are being forced to participate in this diet and no doctor seems to be willing to speak out against it.
He literarlly did a video on this last week. It was about that woman who died because she only ate fruit.
@@privtprofile24that’s not why she died. She died because she had an eating disorder. It’s possible to live off only fruit-if you actually eat enough fruit. Is it optimal for health? No. But you won’t die within a few years like she did.
@@privtprofile24 lol well.....as you can see by the other reply you got....some folks are in need of more clarifcation
@@yanwain9454 more warnings can't hurt I gues.
Appreciate this info on collagen but I have to ask why the protein your selling has sucralose given the recent studies bringing to light the problems with it?
Is there a difference between Whey v.s. beef/chicken protein in terms of leucine performance? Cheers
Was the study Type 2 Collegen? Studies have shown type 2 as beneficial to connective tissue.
What type of Collagen did the study use? Was it hydrolyzed? Collagen is high on Glycine which seems to be a contributing factor to the body's own Collagen synthesis, not sure if that has been established in any study though.
My entirely anecdotal, and totally unscientific opinion is that for some people eating collagen protein promotes good digestive health, not necessarily that the protein itself is useful, or that the connective tissue growth is happening, but that eating collagen protein creates a state in the body which is good for other processes, the most common one I hear about as a trainer is improved sleep. And improved sleep is absolutely one of the most anabolic things you can do. Interested to see more research and data about this
So should you take collagen before bed time?
@@Coromi1 maybe. I don't know but it's worth testing
@@Coromi1 I red somewhere that about 2 hours prior to sleep would help improve it.
@@Liisjak Thank you.
I use a scoop of collagen powder in my morning protein shake only for vanity reasons….makes my skin look a little better 💪🏼😅
What about for skin health theres seems to be good study’s for tht
I've searched for some good studies on this when trying to discuss with clients but couldn't find any. Can you link one please?
It’s all on CZcams. Search “stimulating” and you’ll find loads of truth.
Only the ones that are industry sponsored are positive. Although Layne does not care about that, to most that’s quit telling.
@@Crepitom exactly what I've found
I started taking collagen protein daily about 2 years ago for joint pain. I found it helped very minor amounts with joint pain (less so than omega 3 pills) but my skin has been noticeably better for it. I'll continue to use it despite this study purely for the skin benefits.
Does adding leucine powder in with a protein shake that is not whey help with MPS at all?
What about Glucosamine Chondroitin for connective tissue synthesis? (Just curious)
I take collagen along with NAC. collagen is very high in glycine and when you combine glycine and NAC it boosts the levels of glutathione in the body. It’s basically my own version of the supplement Glynac except it’s not as expensive. I’m nearing the age of 50 so it’s important for me to keep my glutathione levels up.
Why not just take a bioavailable form of glutathione?
@@KingRocketsBecause glutathione supplements don’t absorb well. They’re a waste of money. And if you go with the liposomal versions those can be damaging to your health because your body needs to regulate how much of it goes to different areas of the body. The liposomal versions provide an unregulated dose to the body. It’s best to help your body create its own glutathione and glycine and NAC do just that.
That’s what I am doing as well. I am 52 and lift regularly. I take creatine, collagen, protein powder, NAC, vitamin D, glucomannan, omega 3.
@dtateiii I hear you, but not so sure about the whole unregulated levels with the Liposomal form. Don't think that's quite true.
@@KingRockets Here is a comment from Mike Mutzel of of high intensity health talking about how the body regulates the synthesis of glutathione and how the studies show that taking a glutathione supplement directly is not wise. Just listen to the first minute to hear about glutathione regulation. He gets to the topic of regulation around 25 seconds in. I wanted to link a study but the ones that I found are way too heavy for the average person to grasp. Mike Mutzel explains it in a nutshell without all the scientific jargon.
czcams.com/video/XR7iVMo4nWc/video.html
What about consuming collagen alongside a source with higher lucine for connective tissue benefits?
So what DOES increase conmective tissue synthesis?
You should define what “collagen protein” is. It doesn’t sound like you’re talking about natural foods high in collagen, this is just collagen supplements which is defined as what? Ground up animal hooves, correct?
What do you think of UCII for joint health
Where's the link to the study?? Only type 2 helps connective tissue not others
However the study does not specify if thy use collagen or collagen peptides 🤔
I’ve been taking 15g of bovine collagen peptides. I’m injury prone, and have been training for a marathon. I’m doing the most running volume I ever did, and no injuries, no knee pain, nothing. Its doing something for sure.
Placebo effect
@@dericktrenevsky3659best brand name ever.
@@danec1899"anekhdotal" 🤓
@@danec1899 www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10058045/
@@danec1899Or it’s possible that Layne is quoting one study in order to sell more of his protein powder. Follow the money
Podcast Thinking Nutrition by Dr Tim Crowe. Tendon Troubles: can collagen supplements help with tendon repair? (14:51min).
What supplements would you recommend for tendon recovery?
Vitamin C I dealt with tendonitis in both elbows for over a year. Started taking 1g vitamin C daily and within a month it was 90%+ better
Hi Layne, what is the method for detecting connective tissue synthesis? I was just wondering as connective tissue seems to take so long to heal compared to muscle tissue, Im surprised its easy to pick up. I would imagine its a slow but consistent process and hence not that easy to detect an uptick?. I have no idea. Just asking.
It's intramuscular collagen, i.e. fascia. Not tendons or ligaments.
@@Individualati interesting. I would say then they are not testing for what we think collagen is helping for.
@@Edgycoo I doubt they would even be allowed to punch or drill or snip holes for biopsy in tendons merely for sports research. That could be damaging and would be reserved only for disease research or in clinically evaluating a patient. But not for sarcopenia, probably.
So they go with what method is available. But if no benefit is found in intramuscle connective tissue, with its better blood supply, it seems unlikely in tendons or ligaments.
Also, since this protein synthesis is not intracellular, fibroblasts have to be present and active.
Here's a successful study with different parameters: "Exercise Plus Presleep Protein Ingestion Increases Overnight Muscle Connective Tissue Protein Synthesis Rates in Healthy Older Men"
I'm just starting to look into this, if you dig up something useful, let me know.
thanks!
What if I take a bath in my collagen protein powder? /s
FOR LAYNE! ⚔
Hey Wayne, what, if anything, does stimulate connective tissue synthesis? And does collagen have any benefits at all?
Who's Wayne?
Hi Layne, the background in the intro does not match the videos content
Layne... What does the "hydrolysed" part of "hydrolyzed collagen" mean? 🤔
Do lean sources of protein like chicken have the same muscle-protein synthesis response as whey?
Yeah, we knew all along. Good that is supported by studies
I’ve always added collagen to my milk & egg protein powder mix in about a 10-12% ratio, any amino acid imbalance is rectified.
What about for skin?