I found this interview fascinating. I spent time in prison as a young man, and became interested in other religions, other than Christianity. I often times had heated debate with them as well. One day, after reading a book on the Buddha and his teachings I gave it to a Christian friend and told him to read it and ask me questions on it later, never knowing it was a set up. He came back and threw the book at me and told me it was a lie and that they had stole Christian ideas and made it their own, never thinking the Indian philosophy could have influenced Greek philosophy and found it’s way into the New Testament scriptures. I had always had an open mind thinking that information was traded throughout history due to conquests, like that of Alexander. This is generally when my official deconstruction began.
👍🏾a good example of this is the abrahamic religion's barbaric treatment of gay men. The abrahamic religions explicitly calls for the death of gay men (Leviticus 20) to which homophobic paul calls that death decree and others"god's righteous decree" (Romans 1:26-32) nowhere in the Buddhist tradition does it ever call for the death of anyone let alone gay men. In actuality, the abrahamic religions are the barbaric religions. ➡️Just imagine if the buddha had called for the death of anyone & then one of his disciples called said death decree "Buddha's righteous decree"😣 * *shudder* *
@@ring-tone278 seriously dude, has the omnipotent creator of the universe told you to spam a secular channel because somehow he needs your help to spread his message?
@@ring-tone278 why are you posting verses from the bible(a religious text) on a channel that uses research, history and peer reviewed studies/findings to challenge the infallibility of religious texts such as the bible?
@@ring-tone278 lol they wove that in their text like every cult would bc even at that particular time, people were seeing through the BS and leaving that religion, we have record both within the bible text and outside sources of people who had left the religion.
This is the part of history that apologists conveniently leave out when they pretend that Christians were the only ones to aspire towards holiness and everyone else was just evil and feasting the human brains of their enemies all day or something since jesus wasn’t around yet.
Vague Infinite Gods are easily imaginable, unlike the infinite FSM, which is why we know the FSM is true. It just feels true also, how could it possibly have memed without it being superduperhyperuberGod?
@@amosfwo4609...I've found that a heroic dose of ayahuasca is so very enlightening; so much better than LSD. Have you tried these? The best for imagination. Might I suggest the ayahuasca. Real eye opener that one.
CORRECTION! Just around 13:45 I said "third century BCE" in reference to Alexander's conquest. I should have said "late FOURTH century BCE". DUH. Sorry. :/
Pythagoras means Heart of the Serpent, he was born in Sidon, a fishing Port in Phoenicia. His mother recieved a message from the Oracle of Delphi that he would become a great Leader and Teacher. Sidon means Kingdom of the Fish, and the Essenes, who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls, worshipped Pythagoras. The Sarcophagus of Eschmun III found in Sidon names him as the Widow's Scion, aka Hiram Abiff, the Founder of Freemasonry, of which Tyre was the premier Capital (at least equal to Thebes). In 911BC Rameses II married the Queen of Sidon, home of Jezebel (Daughter or consort of Baal, basically "Queen") founding Neo Assyrian Babylon, an alliance between Egypt and Hiram, father of Jezebel and King of Assyria, and Egypt, forming the Phoenician colonies and building the first Temple of Melqart to commemorate the alliance. The Si in Sidon is the basis of the Latin Exe, or X, and is the basis of the Cross, or Chi Rho that Constantine painted on his shields. Also known as the Cross of Tyre, or Cross of Baal, being Ra-El, or Ba'El. Oddly enough irrational numbers can also be mapped using Euler's number, producing a Templar Cross in the process. This cross can also be seen around the neck of Nimrod in Assyria, and is consistent with the Union Jack, and Solstice Calendar found in the Vatican Shiva Lingam. Shiva is the Hebrew word for 7, their culture also found its way to Japan (via the Phillipines) ultimately becoming Shintoism. It was the Phoenicians who gave their name to the Pole Star, which they used to Navigate the Oceans using the Zodiac, thats what the Antikythera mechanism was for, and with it they wrote the Byblos Baal, what we now call the Bible. The first form of the Bible was written in 325BC and called the Vaticanus Greacus, or Son of the Sacred Serpent, a reference to Sirius, the basis of the Sothic Calendar, which uses a Hexidecimal or base 60 system found in all the Megalithic sites around the world. In the second century AD astronomer Valentinus Vettori transcribed it into a Lunar chart of 13 houses, what we now call the Zodiac. Horoscope means Star Watcher, and the Phoenician word for Saturn, or El, was Israel or El, (Fruit) of Isis and Ra. El is the primary God of the Phoenicians, representing the offspring of Egypt, and his consort Astarte represents the Assyrian half of the alliance. It may be possible to trace lineages and alliances through the naming of gods, which can be traced all the way to Ireland and the Vikings, and to Indonesia and the Americas, even as far away as New Zealand and Australia. It denotes Sirius as Son of Orion and Pleaides, which sits at 33 degrees of the Zodiac. The basis of the Sothic (dir Seth) Calendar of the Egyptians. The New Moon in this position marks Rosh Hashanah, the Egyptian, Celtic, Phoenician, and Assyrian New Year, the first New Moon of September, which is called September because it's the 7th House of the Zodiac, when the Sun is in Ophiuchus. The Phoenix, Benben, or Bennu is the Egyptian word for Heron, a Feathered 'Serpent'. It baptised itself in frankincense and myrrh at BaalBek, and then alights atop the Pyramid, upon the Holy Grail, or Alter of Ra every 630 years to take three days off the calendar during the course of the first New Moon of Nisan, which means "Prince". The Capstone of Pyramids is even called the Benben or Bennu. The Phoenix is found in all religions, which are all Astrological Allegory for the Moon travelling through the Constellations, as a soul migrating from body to body, this is the basis of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth, or the Hero's Journey. The various planets no doubt play their own roles as portents, omens, and aspects, this astrology is the science of the Bronze age, and lasted all the way up to the 20th Century. Resurrection was an early teaching of the Christian Church, and likely relates to the lineage of Kings (The King is Dead, long live the King.) Phoenicians represent the interim step between Egypt and Greece, their artisans and culture exceeding that of the Greeks, who literally adopted the Phoenician Alphabet, which we still use to this day, sounding out words phonetically. Phoenician is aliiterated in Venetian, and Vikings, being Kings of the Sea. The Bennu is the Egyptian Phoenix, to Phoenicians the Hoyle, no different to the traditions of the Etruscans, who saw birds as sacred, just as the Celts. Hebrew and Iber as in Iberia have the same root meaning over, as in overseas, as in those who travel "over the sea." A colony called Iberia also appears on the Eastern shores of the Black Sea, where the same Dolmens and Megalithic culture originating in Ireland and Brittany appeared circa 4500BC. _Phoenician_ means Scions of the Phoenix, the first Bible: Vaticanus Greacus Son of the Sacred Serpent (Prince). Then there's the Essenes, Sons of Light, the Tuatha De Danaan, Sons of Light, Annunaki, Sons of Light, Arthur Pendragon means Arthur Son of the dragon, Chertoff is Russian for "Son of the Devil" and Dracula also means Son of the Dragon, Masons have been known at times to call themselves the "Brotherhood of the Great White Serpent". The Ziggurat of Anu also denotes her as a great white Serpent, while New Grange and the Bru na Boinne in Ireland (4000BC) coated buildings with white quartz to denote the Moon. The Moon itself travels outside the Solar Elliptic by 5 degrees, which means it passes through specific constellations in a serpentine fashion that is always changing, but repeats every 19 years, the time it took to train a Druid or Magi, Magi meaning "Teacher" the Phoenix is also associated with this sacred number 19. The name "Pharoah" means "Great House" or "House of Light" and Cairo used to be called Babel. Pharaoh's themselves wore a hooded crown representing feathers, just as Native American Chiefs, ie the Feathered Serpent, they were also called the Commander in Chief. Aztecs also had Serpent Kings, (Canaan means Serpent Kings, and Sidon was a Son of Canaan, and Great Grandson of Noah) who were called to lead with cunning and guile, being the very virtue by which they claim the title in the first place; but to be seen in public as just and diplomatic. "As wise as Serpents, but gentle as Doves" the old Egyptian flag of an Eagle attacking a Snake is also reflected in the Modern Mexican flag, denoting the Constellations of Serpentis (13th sign of the Zodiac) and Aquila. The dimensions and 12 mathematical constants of the Great Pyramid are also expressed in New Grange, and Stonehenge, as well as in Watson Brake, (2500BC) and Teotihuacan, which correlates to the Phoenician/ Sumerian Hexidecimal system, which is what our modern systems of time are based on. Officially no one knows who invented astrology, the zodiac, navigation by the stars, and time keeping. But whoever built the pyramids, and pioneered the 24hr clock in Egypt 5000 years ago also knew the exact dimensions of the Earth, as well as the speed of light. These calculations can all be made using these Megalithic sites as surveyors use a theodolite. Specifically Teotihuacan, which sits 180 degrees opposite Cairo, and has the exact same footprint. The ideal positions to determine the speed of light using the transit of Venus, by which one can accurately determine Longitude for navigation. Capt cook did the same thing in 1774 when he 'discovered' Easter Island. The only culture that fits the bill was wiped out "not one stone upon the other" by the Romans in 146BC. Tyre, the capital of Phoenicia (israel) sat just offshore from Ur Shalom, City of the New Moon, or City of Peace. The root of the name Jerusalem, and was also seized by Rome in 70AD after a 13 year seige. The gap between is 216 years. Greek Dionysians built the Temple of Solomon (now called the Temple of Melqart) representing the Solar Lunar Metonic Calendar on which this system is based, they also carried mirrors, a practice associated with both the Magi and the Druids as well as Greek and Egyptian scholars, these Mirrors are Astrological charts called "Cycladian Frying Pans" and record the cycles of the planets. The first Temple of Melqart (the Phoenician form of Horus, or Hercules, or Pan, or Thor) representing the 13th Constellation of Ophiuchus or the Serpent Bearer (hence Orphic Serpent worship) had pillars of Emerald and Gold, representing Isis and Osiris. The Jerusalem Temple only took payment in "Shekels of Tyre" a currency minted during the Jewish rebellion against Rome. "Give that which is Ceasar's unto Ceasar" When Alexander sacked Tyre in 332BC they moved to Carthage meaning "New City" or New Jerusalem, where they built a second temple with Pillars of Bronze. Nebuchadnezzar also seiged Tyre for 13 years, taking the City captive in 573BC: the same time as the biblical account of the Jews. And again in 70AD after a three and a half year seige, also consistent with biblical accounts.
I just realized you have the "Huge audience applause" in the background when you introduced him! 😁 Nice detail! Joe really painted a great picture and filled in a lot of gaps! Now every peeping Tom or Tammy is going to see if they can go on vacation in southern India!😁
SECOND CORRECTION! Although I "sort of" corrected this late in the video when I correctly noted that Bahubali is "legendary" and not historical. I should be more clear. Bahubali is (in fact) the offspring of the first Tirthankara of Jainism, a primordial master who would have lived in a previous aeon in the far distant past. Off the cuff, I misremembered him as a character set in a somewhat more recent world-era. @redskoda14 mentioned this mistake in another comment.
@51:00 I made a community post last week about this very issue with the green grass in Mark. It is important to note, for one thing, that grass in the Galilee IS NOT only green in the Spring. It is much more accurate to say that it is green for half the year through the Winter and into the Spring. Moreover, it is patently obvious why this is mentioned by Mark; it is not a "casual" detail. Rather, it fits perfectly within Mark's efforts to teach about the "Good Shepherd," and in alignment with various images reminiscent of Psalm 23.
No, “gnostic” Christians simply believed that you needed to “know” Joshua/Jesus/the-way to gain easy happy immortality, that “faith” without works was dead and that “faith” without knowledge was just a lie. The Christians that won against them refused the high bar of works or even knowledge and opted for naked “faith” only , where only self-perceived membership mattered without the work of knowledge or the work of physical efforts (“works”) since that is the best way to increase attendance which means increased donations.
It all happened in Ireland and Brittany 7000 years ago Long before Egypt, Sumeria, and Indus civilisations Pythagoras means Heart of the Serpent, he was born in Sidon, a fishing Port in Phoenicia. His mother recieved a message from the Oracle of Delphi that he would become a great Leader and Teacher. Sidon means Kingdom of the Fish, and the Essenes, who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls, worshipped Pythagoras. The Sarcophagus of Eschmun III found in Sidon names him as the Widow's Scion, aka Hiram Abiff, the Founder of Freemasonry, of which Tyre was the premier Capital (at least equal to Thebes). In 911BC Rameses II married the Queen of Sidon, home of Jezebel (Daughter or consort of Baal, basically "Queen") founding Neo Assyrian Babylon, an alliance between Egypt and Hiram, father of Jezebel and King of Assyria, and Egypt, forming the Phoenician colonies and building the first Temple of Melqart to commemorate the alliance. The Si in Sidon is the basis of the Latin Exe, or X, and is the basis of the Cross, or Chi Rho that Constantine painted on his shields. Also known as the Cross of Tyre, or Cross of Baal, being Ra-El, or Ba'El. Oddly enough irrational numbers can also be mapped using Euler's number, producing a Templar Cross in the process. This cross can also be seen around the neck of Nimrod in Assyria, and is consistent with the Union Jack, and Solstice Calendar found in the Vatican Shiva Lingam. Shiva is the Hebrew word for 7, their culture also found its way to Japan (via the Phillipines) ultimately becoming Shintoism. It was the Phoenicians who gave their name to the Pole Star, which they used to Navigate the Oceans using the Zodiac, thats what the Antikythera mechanism was for, and with it they wrote the Byblos Baal, what we now call the Bible. The first form of the Bible was written in 325BC and called the Vaticanus Greacus, or Son of the Sacred Serpent, a reference to Sirius, the basis of the Sothic Calendar, which uses a Hexidecimal or base 60 system found in all the Megalithic sites around the world. In the second century AD astronomer Valentinus Vettori transcribed it into a Lunar chart of 13 houses, what we now call the Zodiac. Horoscope means Star Watcher, and the Phoenician word for Saturn, or El, was Israel or El, (Fruit) of Isis and Ra. El is the primary God of the Phoenicians, representing the offspring of Egypt, and his consort Astarte represents the Assyrian half of the alliance. It may be possible to trace lineages and alliances through the naming of gods, which can be traced all the way to Ireland and the Vikings, and to Indonesia and the Americas, even as far away as New Zealand and Australia. It denotes Sirius as Son of Orion and Pleaides, which sits at 33 degrees of the Zodiac. The basis of the Sothic (dir Seth) Calendar of the Egyptians. The New Moon in this position marks Rosh Hashanah, the Egyptian, Celtic, Phoenician, and Assyrian New Year, the first New Moon of September, which is called September because it's the 7th House of the Zodiac, when the Sun is in Ophiuchus. The Phoenix, Benben, or Bennu is the Egyptian word for Heron, a Feathered 'Serpent'. It baptised itself in frankincense and myrrh at BaalBek, and then alights atop the Pyramid, upon the Holy Grail, or Alter of Ra every 630 years to take three days off the calendar during the course of the first New Moon of Nisan, which means "Prince". The Capstone of Pyramids is even called the Benben or Bennu. The Phoenix is found in all religions, which are all Astrological Allegory for the Moon travelling through the Constellations, as a soul migrating from body to body, this is the basis of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth, or the Hero's Journey. The various planets no doubt play their own roles as portents, omens, and aspects, this astrology is the science of the Bronze age, and lasted all the way up to the 20th Century. Resurrection was an early teaching of the Christian Church, and likely relates to the lineage of Kings (The King is Dead, long live the King.) Phoenicians represent the interim step between Egypt and Greece, their artisans and culture exceeding that of the Greeks, who literally adopted the Phoenician Alphabet, which we still use to this day, sounding out words phonetically. Phoenician is aliiterated in Venetian, and Vikings, being Kings of the Sea. The Bennu is the Egyptian Phoenix, to Phoenicians the Hoyle, no different to the traditions of the Etruscans, who saw birds as sacred, just as the Celts. Hebrew and Iber as in Iberia have the same root meaning over, as in overseas, as in those who travel "over the sea." A colony called Iberia also appears on the Eastern shores of the Black Sea, where the same Dolmens and Megalithic culture originating in Ireland and Brittany appeared circa 4500BC. _Phoenician_ means Scions of the Phoenix, the first Bible: Vaticanus Greacus Son of the Sacred Serpent (Prince). Then there's the Essenes, Sons of Light, the Tuatha De Danaan, Sons of Light, Annunaki, Sons of Light, Arthur Pendragon means Arthur Son of the dragon, Chertoff is Russian for "Son of the Devil" and Dracula also means Son of the Dragon, Masons have been known at times to call themselves the "Brotherhood of the Great White Serpent". The Ziggurat of Anu also denotes her as a great white Serpent, while New Grange and the Bru na Boinne in Ireland (4000BC) coated buildings with white quartz to denote the Moon. The Moon itself travels outside the Solar Elliptic by 5 degrees, which means it passes through specific constellations in a serpentine fashion that is always changing, but repeats every 19 years, the time it took to train a Druid or Magi, Magi meaning "Teacher" the Phoenix is also associated with this sacred number 19. The name "Pharoah" means "Great House" or "House of Light" and Cairo used to be called Babel. Pharaoh's themselves wore a hooded crown representing feathers, just as Native American Chiefs, ie the Feathered Serpent, they were also called the Commander in Chief. Aztecs also had Serpent Kings, (Canaan means Serpent Kings, and Sidon was a Son of Canaan, and Great Grandson of Noah) who were called to lead with cunning and guile, being the very virtue by which they claim the title in the first place; but to be seen in public as just and diplomatic. "As wise as Serpents, but gentle as Doves" the old Egyptian flag of an Eagle attacking a Snake is also reflected in the Modern Mexican flag, denoting the Constellations of Serpentis (13th sign of the Zodiac) and Aquila. The dimensions and 12 mathematical constants of the Great Pyramid are also expressed in New Grange, and Stonehenge, as well as in Watson Brake, (2500BC) and Teotihuacan, which correlates to the Phoenician/ Sumerian Hexidecimal system, which is what our modern systems of time are based on. Officially no one knows who invented astrology, the zodiac, navigation by the stars, and time keeping. But whoever built the pyramids, and pioneered the 24hr clock in Egypt 5000 years ago also knew the exact dimensions of the Earth, as well as the speed of light. These calculations can all be made using these Megalithic sites as surveyors use a theodolite. Specifically Teotihuacan, which sits 180 degrees opposite Cairo, and has the exact same footprint. The ideal positions to determine the speed of light using the transit of Venus, by which one can accurately determine Longitude for navigation. Capt cook did the same thing in 1774 when he 'discovered' Easter Island. The only culture that fits the bill was wiped out "not one stone upon the other" by the Romans in 146BC. Tyre, the capital of Phoenicia (israel) sat just offshore from Ur Shalom, City of the New Moon, or City of Peace. The root of the name Jerusalem, and was also seized by Rome in 70AD after a 13 year seige. The gap between is 216 years. Greek Dionysians built the Temple of Solomon (now called the Temple of Melqart) representing the Solar Lunar Metonic Calendar on which this system is based, they also carried mirrors, a practice associated with both the Magi and the Druids as well as Greek and Egyptian scholars, these Mirrors are Astrological charts called "Cycladian Frying Pans" and record the cycles of the planets. The first Temple of Melqart (the Phoenician form of Horus, or Hercules, or Pan, or Thor) representing the 13th Constellation of Ophiuchus or the Serpent Bearer (hence Orphic Serpent worship) had pillars of Emerald and Gold, representing Isis and Osiris. The Jerusalem Temple only took payment in "Shekels of Tyre" a currency minted during the Jewish rebellion against Rome. "Give that which is Ceasar's unto Ceasar" When Alexander sacked Tyre in 332BC they moved to Carthage meaning "New City" or New Jerusalem, where they built a second temple with Pillars of Bronze. Nebuchadnezzar also seiged Tyre for 13 years, taking the City captive in 573BC: the same time as the biblical account of the Jews. And again in 70AD after a three and a half year seige, also consistent with biblical accounts.
No. If anything it would have been a rational response to those who wanted to reject Xtian orthodoxy. Also you can see a direct evolutionary line between platonism, to neoplatonism and gnosticism.
Thank you for bringing this great and insightful discussion with Dr. Wilson. In terms of the religions that originated out of India, my understanding is that there is a Dharma called Sanatana Dharma which is practiced there. The people who lived around the ancient river Indus (Indus Valley Civilization) were called Hindus by the Persians because of their pronunciation of the word Sindhu where the S became a H deriving the people as Hindu. These people practiced a way of life, which was not a religion, and that way of life started getting associated with the Persion pronunciation of the region as Hindu. Even today, Sanatana Dharma or Hindu is not a religion, like the religions of the book, the Abrahamic religions are. Also, Sanatana Dharma is accepting of all religions and does not require you to believe in God, whereas the Abrahamic religions require you to only believe in their God, else you're termed as a non-believer who needs to be converted to their religion and belief (with Christianity and Islam being very vocal in wanting to convert you). In fact, in Santana Dharma (or Hindu practice) there is no concept of conversion because it considers you to possess divinity in just the way you are, and don't need divinity from or by following a particular religion. Also, Sanatana Dharma has a saying in Sanskrit "Aham Brahmasmi" which means I have God within me or in literal terms meaning I am divine. The bowing of head with folded hands (🙏) to another person, called or doing a Namaste, is actually saying hello or paying respect to the divinity that resides within you. The Abrahamic religions have their Gods outside of you, and you never see or meet God ... the transition you get after death is to a heaven where you still don't have God or meet God as I understand. Whereas Sanatana Dharma (Hindu practice) says that God is within you and you need to awaken your awareness of the divinity within you. So, as I understand, Sanatana Dharma or Hindu are not religions but have been reduced to one to be able to compare to the Abrahamic religions and sects by the Westerners who can't grasp Sanatana Dharma without taking this reductionist approach. The Papal Bull aka The Doctrine of Discovery issued by Pope Alexander VI on May 4, 1493, as I understand provided the basis for discovering and plundering all non-Christian lands and people, and convert them to Christianity or eliminate them if they didn't accept Christianity. Wherever the Christians landed, in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, Africa etc. they worked to eliminate local / native cultures and practices to impose Christianity and eliminate any and all pagan practices. Islam followed the same practice of conversion or elimination, just more violently, with the words from their Book, without needing a Papal Bull. Sanatana Dharma still remains the only native pagan practice dating back thousands of years, 1000s of years before Judaism or Christianity came along, that even today remains alive and practiced in Bharat (India) despite the arrival of Islam and Christianity to India almost a 1000 years ago. Sorry for the long note, but thought I'll put forth what I have learnt from my readings and understandings. I continue to try and learn more about the Sanatana Dharma in my journey of growth and understanding.
I find the "history of atheism" an interesting concept. I see my own atheism as a very personal thing, not at all dependent on anyone else's prior thinking. From an early age, I have just not seen any reason to believe in any supernatural being and saw many of the Christian beliefs and justifications as absurd.
Hey, just a question with no malice behind it. I know you are an atheist; I am curious as to what you think of when you think of the concept of God. Do you imagine a man in the sky or a force? Because I was an atheist when my perception of God was as a "Sky daddy". But when I read about the mystics of the world my thoughts and ideas around God became more of a concept of a "First cause and sustainer" or "the ground of being", similar to the Tao. Thinking of God in that way caused me to become a deist in some form or other.
@@Tom-sd9jb Interesting. I went through the same process, but realized "a man in the sky or a force", "Sky daddy", "first cause and sustainer" or "the ground of being", or whatever - *_it's all in your head!_* Humans have no way of *knowing* the truth for sure in these matters. We can eliminate some possibilities perhaps, but there are many many many more, even beyond our wildest imagination and ability to comprehend. So my conclusion is (for me) - dabble in religion, spirituality, the transcendental or whatever and have fun, acknowledge possibilities beyond your imagination and ability to comprehend, *BUT ALWAYS* stick to reason, common and equal humanity of all and to observable reality in your real life!!! Cheers!
I find it hard to have any concept of a god. My view of the world sees no need for anything like any god. Which of the thousands (if not millions) of postulated god concepts do you think I should consider? @@Tom-sd9jb
Erm, buddhism is never theistic, because no type of buddhism assumes a creator god who is judging beings for their deeds after they die. On the other hand buddhism is not atheist in the sense of contemporary atheists, who are materialists who believe that mind ends with the death of the body. No buddhist believes that mind dies with the death of the body.
@@AnthroJoe Buddhists universally reject the idea of a creator God. They believe devas exist, which is translated as gods, but they arent the center of the religion the way they are in the pagan religions
I found this interview fascinating as a theist I want to understand and learn about different world views and what is the reality behind everything. Rather than just listen to one view and accept it. Education is something really important because presents you the reality.
But is there an underlying reality behind everything? We create reality in our minds and then build that reality by our actions/karma. Sure groups of like minded individuals have a shared reality but it’s still a little bit different. Take the various realities among just Christian denominations.
@@terranhealer so your saying is there really something supernatural or God like beyond the physical world or have humans invented supernatural being to explain the cause of everything.
@DomainofKnowledge859 right, I'm saying we create the narrative of reality from our dreams and imagination. There may be supernatural forces (ghosts) out there but I suspect they don't have much control over the living world.
@tylerdavis520 who are you to tell me I wasn't a spirit that chose to this mortal coil in order to experience time and space? So yes, I do believe that there are morphogenetic fields that are effected by whatever mind/consciousness is.
I've been told by 2 ex-hindus that there is a major branch of Hinduism that holds the gods are metaphors and the soul does not exist. This seems like an excellent starting point to learn more.
@@Nonamam Last I checked, there are non-Hindu Indians. A 2011 census found that about 14% of the Indian population were Muslim, 2% were Christian, and 1.7% were Sikh. I don't know if Hindus count Sikhs as "Hindus," but they definitely can't count Christians and Muslims as Hindus. There are also multiple ethnic groups within India, with Hinduism being practiced across those groups. So there's no connection between nationality, ethnicity, and religion; should you be implying otherwise, I am concerned that you may be trying to advocate for some kind of theocratic nationalist narrative which is reductive, false, and dangerous. Can you clarify what you mean?
Dr. Michael Sugrue on one of his podcasts was talking about ancient mysteries or something but mentioned the possibility that the therapeutae monks that existed in Egypt around the birth of Jesus could have been inspired by Buddhist missionaries that were sent by Emperor Ashoka with some ending up in ancient Rome.
Their order could have been set up by the Buddhist missionary monks sent by Ashoka and by that time the denomination and word Theravada (Way of the Elders) already existed, plus that was the denomination Ashoka preferred.
@@scottkunghadrengsen2604 Well it used to be called Vibhajyavada or to be more precise that's the bigger movement Theravada is part of, theravadins are direct descendants to Sri Lankan vibhajyavadas. Ashoka bankrolled the Third Buddhist Council and was a patron to the monk Moggaliputtatissa to whom a famous orthodox theravadin text the Kathavattu is attributed (probably didn't write the whole thing and it wasn't finished in Ashoka's time). Mahayana didn't really take form for another century after all this and was probably a tiny group until another 4-5 centuries later.
@zoarduskhan2339 Thanks for the clarification and precise understanding. I always assumed(public pillars and lay conversion) that he was part of the cultural(if not literal)push towards Mahayana. It also sounds like dates have become much more precise since my time in graduate school . lol
Strabo says the Gymnosophists stood on one leg holding a stave above their heads all day ; this is exactly what Moses did when he battled the Amalekites. Early church fathers noted that an Indian sect of Samanoi ( Sramana) wore only bark clothes as the Buddhists did. They note that Philo's Essene teacher Banus was said to have done the same. The Jains were mostly Licchavi just as the majority of the Theistic Mahasamghikas Buddhist schools. The prohet Isaiah going naked , Job pulling out his hair and wearing cast off rags, turning a staff into a naja cobra as sadhus today even coax the naga cobra into a staff or rod, are likely of the Sramanic, or. Shamanic system. In the Manusamhita the Licchavis are called " Niccabis ": the Nisibis of Syria and the Palestinian Nusseibeh who were in Jerusalem after the time of Alexander must be the Nysoi near Taxila who claimed Dionysus established them on his return from Indian conquest. The reluctance to read Sramana (Sans. 'sram', "peace", cognate salam, calm) as Shaman is as unjustified as not reading Parsee as Pharisee, Sheshonk as Shisunaga and etc . The Zarmanochegas, or Shakya-Sramana self-immolated in Athens about 19 b.c. and left a long standing monument nearby. It is true that most Buddhist schools abhorred nakedness but the followers of the Sanghabhedavastu section of the Mulasarvastivadin vinaya end their book with the Buddha disrobing and saying " Monks, behold the true body of the Tathagatas", compared to the Gospel of Thomas when Jesus says he will return when his followers throw off their clothes and trample in them like children
So you are saying that because members of other religions engaged in these practices before Christians or Jews, that proves that they copied these from the Abrahamic religions? Right.
Christians say God is real because almost every culture believes in some form of God. Ok, well I just watched an interesting documentary on the history of vampires/the belief of vampires. Most cultures have a history of belief in some form of vampires. So are vampires real according to that argument?
When I was bored and inspired by AA meetings to have religiosity I invented a new faith of Jainism-Christianity, which is neither, but takes from Jainism ahimsa to animals and animal rights, but from Christianity that one can eat meat as long as you're not dumb enough to try to excuse or justify it, as with Paul saying eating meat is ok as long as you don't condone or take part in the sacrifices. There is a wisdom to this that many are forced to eat meat as children and punished for expressing interest in veganism or animal rights, and not everyone controls their life or diet. Furthermore, animal rights cannot be achieved through personal choice, but only by passing laws banning meat and enforced whether people like it or not. Also, I read something about mahayana Christianity from the dune mythos and thought I would do one better; plus, people are hypocrites who never adhere to their religion anyway, thus religion might as well have the very highest of values, and not encumbered by making excuses for the failings of humans.
You are correct. Nude and ALSO gymnastic i.e. exercise. Both connotations are appropriate in both the Greek and Indian examples. "To exercise nude" is what is done in the gymnasium. Yoga (the activity of Gymnosophists) is likewise a rigorous physical exercise that happens to be done without clothing on...
Appropriate timing - I've been curious about the shramanic traditions and recently started research again! They are very anti-orthodox, just like Jesus with the Pharisees.
karma might be something that only oppresses the underclasses, why do the elite scum never recive punishment and its always the poor areas that are flooded out.
Rare? Have you read the response to your presentation "MYTHVISION’S MISGUIDED QUEST TO DEBUNK UNDESIGNED COINCIDENCES IS GETTING WEIRD"? It seems to me that you misunderstood the actual argument these people are making@@AnthroJoe
@notanemoprog I have not read the book. I did read Erik's blog where he talks about "sausage" and made a thumbnail that is frankly trivializing to Jainism. Nudity is not the main focus here, but the details surrounding that nudity, which are both (apparently) coincidental and demonstrably undesigned. Erik does not address the issue of the vines head on, but instead chalks it up to "external confirmation" which he says is DIFFERENT from undesigned coincidence, but also abundant in the Gospel narratives. I am left scratching my head. How are the two things different in the Gospels? Is internal coincidence "undesigned" and external "confirmed"? Why exactly? None of this is normal ancient historiographic methodology when dealing with interdependent synoptic traditions. Design is default. The undesigned claim is the indefensible part.
Thanks for the response. I'm going to reread and rewatch everything to try and better understand your point. I hope you continue the exchange with Erik because in the end I suppose you both are interested in the truth of the matter @@AnthroJoe
I watched this whole interview just for an old drawing of four naked guys wearing vines?? Of all the "undesigned coincidences" we could have covered (not the least of which you included in the thumbnail, i.e. eye in the palm/stigmata of Christ), we got a history overview and one single "coincidence?" Interesting.....
It wasn't about the general phenomenon of coincidence - but undesigned coincidences pointing to some kind of shared experience between observers. My take is that such a thing should be a very high bar. Such things are extremely rare, IMHO, which is why it took so long to get there.
@@AnthroJoe "extremely rare"... I categorically disagree. They are so abundant I believe we've become blind to them, a.k.a. serendipity and synchronicity. They happen on the daily and have for all of history.
@ianwalker5907 you declare them undesigned, and therefore abundant. Undesigned status must be demonstrated and not merely asserted. When texts are literally interdependent, that is a tall order. My example is one where independence is demonstrated. Your examples are not.
@@AnthroJoe I hope you're joking.... Are you saying you've never heard how all the religious figures of every faith are copies of each other?? Like, Abraham and Sarah/ Brahma and Saraswati, Mithra/Messiah, Enki/Enoch, Seth/Set, Krishna/Christ/Tamuz, Lao Tsu/Gautama Buddha, El/Allah.... have you ever read Secret Teachings of all ages? It's not a "tall order." It's something my seven year old fully grasps.
@@ianwalker5907 Those are not undesigned coincidences reflecting a common historical memory. Some of them are valid examples of cultural diffusion and language change. Some of them are spurious folk-etymologies based on superficial sound-alike resemblances. The book you mention is not a credible academic source, but an artifact of early 20th century esoteric pseudo-history.
Did the Greek literary writers at the time of Jesus know about Buddism or Shramaniism teachings or writings was there any connection or association ???
That is a controversial topic. Depends on who you ask. I think that not every New Testament source is the same. Zacharaias Thundy made a case that Matthew's work is heavily influenced by Persian religion, and that could have included some Buddhist stuff too.
It comes from Ireland, 7000 years ago. The Celts colonised the Middle east around 4000 years ago, leaving as the Bronze they invented turned to cheap iron. They were for the most part peaceful and weren't equipped for mass warfare, that's why we find the same traditions in China and India, they were part of the prehistoric Celtic world
@@Uncanny_Mountain The Celts 4000 years ago are very poorly defined, and at that stage they were on their way west TOWARDS Ireland, not spreading eastward from it. I tend to avoid nationalistic debates. The Indo-Europeans at that stage included Celts and many other similar groups are very hard to define. Indo-Europeans certainly SPREAD Bronze, but we do not know who invented it.
@@AnthroJoe wrong Two thirds of all Neolithic art comes from the Bru na Boinne, so do the Cairns and Tumulus later found in Georgia. You can literally trace their steps from Hephaestus to Carthage Maybe you should look into it rather than acting like you're the world authority on everything
Philosophies? Maybe, maybe not, but the various strands of Indic philosophy co-evolved after this time. They were DEFINITELY opposed to certain normative PRACTICES like blood sacrifice and caste heirarchies. Orthopraxy vs. orthodoxy.
I have no great investment in historicity arguments about Buddha or Mahavira. CI Beckwith has suggested they were one and the same person (or more specifically, that Mahavira is a schismatic buddhist revision of the character). But I don't see much evidence either way. @ajaysamanta9661
The caste system is older than writing itself. It is proto-Indo-European and is paralleled in Celtic, Latin, Greek and Persian cultures. @ajaysamanta9661
You could go even further back than the time of Alexander the Greats conquest of Northern India(c. 327bc). Zoroastrianism has been shown by many scholars to have had plenty of eastern influence in it's belief system and the founding of that religion is typically dated to c. 700bc.(about the same time as Jainism). Which most scholars agree was founded in ancient Iran, which spread as far as modern day Pakistan, the same general area in which Hinduism and Jainism were practiced. So, there was already the influence from Hinduism at least, which spawns the movement that would become Jainism, within the area that Zoroastrianism was practiced. You could even argue that Zoroastrianism was one of the competing sects alongside Jainism due to their foundings both being dated to roughly the same century. And it can also be noted that Christianity barrows heavily from the myths of Zoraster. Some scholars even go so far as to point out that Paul(the man who spread Christianity to the non-jewish people) was raised in the tradition of Mithra, which many argue was the Greek/Roman influence on the traditions of Zoroastrianism(as the Greeks and Roman's did with most neighboring religions, it was adapted to their mythos and added their own flare to it). And scholars speculate that the reason the cult of Mithras and Zoroastrianism have so many parallels or similarities to Christianity is largely due to Paul's upbringing and being within a culture that had these same things, and he incorporated them into his version of Christianity. This also can explain why Peter had a major dispute with Paul. Peter ended up largely preaching to the Jewish peoples and Paul preached to the gentiles(or non-jewish) peoples. I can see where he's coming from in using the oldest version of Karma, within the older Hindu texts. However I think it should be stated that Buddhism broke away from Hinduism. Hinduism came first, then Buddhism(c. 500bc) and Jainism(c. 500-700bc) arise around similar time periods, essentially as breakaway sects out of Hinduism and both start defining Karma and other terms in different ways. I just don't like that he is using Hindu text to define the Buddhist terms, when they technically aren't a Buddhist text and you could make the same argument of Jainism using his logic. If we want to get real technical, there is the argument that the oldest Sanskrit texts on Hinduism are not even the same Hinduism that is preached in 1AD. The gods have different names and different stories. While I personally am of the party that states there are so many similarities that you can easily argue they ARE the same religion(just with variation that happens over time and cultures changing the text), it is an argument made by scholars of many different disciplines. Which does have some validity when the standard belief is that Hinduism can be dated to c. 3000bc, and others arguing they can be dated as far back as c. 6000-8000bc(that's a lot of time that allows for many culture variations to take place). In regards to the Ajivakas in particular I just think it's worth mentioning that the Greeks and Roman's often criticized the Jewish people for being atheistic for believing in only 1 deity, and with all of these sects coming out of Hinduism, which has many interpretations today, but multiple state that the 3 main deities are aspects of the 1 deity that created the universe, it just seems likely that they simply held a different view on the god(s) that were commonly believed in. And as he stated, these were essentially caricatures of what was actually believed by the sect, it is quite likely they were not necessarily "atheistic" as we would view it today. Even Socrates was accused of atheism, but he himself claimed to believe in the gods of the city. He is correct on Cynicism that it was a two way street. And I believe Alexander was already going to be interested in these sects due to their radical beliefs, as Alexander was a fan of Diogenes the cynic, and there is a fun parable of Alexander meeting Diogenes. If there's any truth to Alexander even wanting to meet with Diogenes, who had a VERY radical lifestyle compared to most of the western world at the time, I find it very likely, had Alexander heard of these sects in the area, he would definitely want to meet with them or at least send someone like Onesecritus who could hear what these Indian philosophers had to say. Not to mention his teacher was Aristotle and he had an interest in philosophy and knowledge in general. But back to the first part of my statement, there was already contact going on in Iran/Persia and Alexander had a love for Persian culture(to the extent that their are stories of his soldiers critiquing his Greekness and manliness, Persians were seen as effeminate in Greek eyes of the time). And with Cynicism already being present in Greece, if these sects in India did have Cynicism as well, then it was plausible that it was due to, or at least helped by, the near eastern influence on both nations. For Derek, I don't know about the grass. But, I do know of the argument about the palm leaves when Jesus enters Jerusalem. From what I recall, the palm leaves wouldn't be harvested and thus wouldn't be used as fans, until the fall time. But in another of the gospels it states that Jesus entered around the Passover, which is in April. This is the basis of the argument that the 2 gospels are conflicting. I've heard the counterargument that they wouldn't have just thrown away the palm leaves and they would have been encased in wax or even that they would have still been usable until Passover. But there are numerous other arguments to be made about conflicting narratives throughout the gospels. One last critique, I feel the title was deceptive. There was no proof of any kind in here that Christian Apologists prove anything about Jainism. I feel 40 minutes of this video was setting up general differences of ancient Jainism from other sects formed around the same time period. Then there was about 15-20 minutes worth of this man not really saying anything of substance to Dereks questions. But there was little to no discussion of Christian apologizing.
Brahmanism isnt the same as Hinduism (word coined by the British). All the modern philosophy of Hinduism comes from both Buddhism and Jainism. Hinduism isnt even an unified religion, it’s an aglomaration of different local cults throughout India. In some regions Shiva is the highest god and in some regions the highest god is Vishnu. But at the time of Buddha the highest god was Brahma. Sramana movements didnt broke out of “Hinduism” they rejected it and established their own separate religions.
Indian words have meanings which if u know enhance understanding. at 9.40 word Sutra for a holy book has a meaning. by itself Sutra is word for a cotton string. they explain it by saying an enlightened person has seen the light while an untrained person is stuck/lost in a dark cave. enlightened person has found the way out and he had tied this weak thread to a tree or a rock outside. he has brought it to u. now if u gently follow it u will reach outside. if u break it u will be lost again
We have a SMALL handful of early more-or-less "complete" manuscripts of Mark, but the original ending may be lost (because although the short ending is older than the "long" ending, it might be abbreviated because of a lost page of an early manuscripts). Mark was not as popular as the other gospels, was transcribed less frequently, and editions would have been subject to more neglect. In contrast, the other three canonical gospels each have between double and quadruple the early witnesses. The low number of early Mark texts means that any very early text variants were more prone to be lost, and it is harder to compare manuscript lineages to reconstruct the hypothetical autograph. What you see is what you get, and deletions and interpolations are more likely to be cryptic.
@@mitch9066 good point. But I am pretty sure if anyone want to go back to the garden of eden. You would be preaching the philosophy that Jesus preached.
@@mitch9066 you know love GOD love thy neighbour as thy love thy self. Healing the JEW healing the gential healing a Samaritan. Preaching to an Ethiopian the golden rule type stuff.
@@americaeaustraliaepius4338 there has been plenty of evidence. Based of the rational arguments. Give by Plato and Plotinus. Your empiricism claims all metaphysics to be incorrect. Even tho you used learning logic through numbers. From Plato to write the code for your there computers. 111111 111111 chapter 7 of the republic.
Does the AP stand for Advanced Placement or is it like HH Holmes where it stands for Human Hunter and maybe AP is Archeologist Philosopher. (Obviously none of this is factually accurate, I just always wonder why people shorten their names down to initials and then play games to try to come up with as many weird combinations of words as I can)
Yes, that was my mistake. I "sort of" corrected it later in the video, but I had forgotten Bahubali was the son of the first Tirthankara. I had remember he was the child of another Jain figure, but I forgot which one.
I believe they did not have such a binary good vs evil. For example, Kali, god of destruction, is necessary to keep order and renew things so those things can turn into something newer and more useful to creation (I think)
For Buddhism, probably Mara. He is supposedly the god of the world and of illusions and of death and of rebirth, and he supposedly has a heavenly army and tried to stop the Buddha from achieving enlightenment, but didn't succeed.
Buddha was influenced by Jainism, Christianity was influenced by Buddhism...so there you go. If you want to know true Spirituality, watch the first three Star Wars movies George Lucas made. God is Real. God is universal. No religion is universal. God is not religious. Jesus was a Jedi.
These are the the days of Revelation, when men can be woman and women can be men. And people agree with this. Did the Jains or Christians believe this too?
Yes. This is Kaliyug, or as the greeks and romans believed, it's the age of iron, after the age of bronze and the age of heroes, it's the age of decadence ande gradual degradation. As Ovid wrote.
Unrelated, but I find Inspiring Philosophy’s silence on the book of Daniel DEAFENING. I’ve repeatedly asked him to cover this very crucial issue (including Jubilees, as it destroys his evolutionary views), yet he ignores me (Mythvision, Gnostic Informant, Digital Hammurabi, Atheologica, are all brave enough to tackle this issue; unlike IP). Wonder why🤔
@FergieFerg622 and @matthewnitz8367, I can guess that maybe I.P. has some kind of nuanced reading of Gen 1 and Gen 2 that make them compatible with theistic evolution? Jubilees (a non-canonical source) like the Quran and modern fundamentalist Christian exegesis, all conflate the two narratives, rendering those kind of old-earth theistic-evolutionary arguments a bit irrelevant. Nonetheless, a proponent could simply dismiss Jubilees and the Quran as uninspired. No? Am I missing something?
JAINISM This reminds me of those videos people do with Jordan Peterson in the title. Like no one is interested in you, because why would they be, so they click-bait Jordan Peterson. I think that is what jainism is doing in this video, with Christianity. In my opinion.
That guys Etymology Sucks , They didn't call themselves Indians. They have they're own names and LANGUAGES. Come on just say it. GUYS. MIXING OF PEOPLES BEINGFULL BLOODED WHATEVER IS FALSE .
HUH? This is about India. It is a geographic region. It is a neutral term to designate people from there. There were many small warring states in the indian subcontinent during early antiquity. By the time of Alexander the Great, pan-Indian unity was being established among the Buddhist/Jain Mauryans.
"Christian apologist prove" wtf. That's an oxymoron if there ever was one! C.S. Lewis would doubtlessly agree. Love the shows that demonstrate influences and synchronism. Gotta have the clickbait title I guess. Seeing how religions have evolved impowers my Christian experience. Those who are threatened by truth need to revaluate their faith... as do those who feel that they have a right to tell others what's they have to believe.
@@Paulman.K Christianity based upon anything other than a personal relationship with Christ crucified is bs in my opinion. Most people who identify as Christians have no idea what they're denomination believes. There are far too many variations of Christianity to make a claim it's all based upon the same thing. The oversimplification of your comment is disturbing. Broad pronouncements about what others believe is the first step to dehumanizing them.
I agree the title is clickbaity, but it relates to the conversation Derek and I had about the topic of undesigned coincidences, so I don't have a problem with it.
Come on. "MYTHVISION’S MISGUIDED QUEST TO DEBUNK UNDESIGNED COINCIDENCES IS GETTING WEIRD" really gets at the issue here: you do not understand the argument you are trying to debunk
@@AnthroJoeMostly north and central Asian art was influenced by Greek art, south Indian and south-east Asian art remained relatively the same, as you can see today it has its own unique abstract artstyle, influenced by chola, pallava and vijayanagara art
Yest that is true that South Asia is less influenced by Greek style@@dannydohma6808 > Nonetheless, the two forms of art in the Buddhist context appeared simultaneously in the wake of imperial unifications of the late first millennium BCE, and Jain art is heavily influenced by Buddhist art. So it is hard to say which is older (south or central asian style) in the Shramana context, or which may have stimulated the other.
I found this interview fascinating. I spent time in prison as a young man, and became interested in other religions, other than Christianity. I often times had heated debate with them as well. One day, after reading a book on the Buddha and his teachings I gave it to a Christian friend and told him to read it and ask me questions on it later, never knowing it was a set up. He came back and threw the book at me and told me it was a lie and that they had stole Christian ideas and made it their own, never thinking the Indian philosophy could have influenced Greek philosophy and found it’s way into the New Testament scriptures. I had always had an open mind thinking that information was traded throughout history due to conquests, like that of Alexander. This is generally when my official deconstruction began.
👍🏾a good example of this is the abrahamic religion's barbaric treatment of gay men. The abrahamic religions explicitly calls for the death of gay men (Leviticus 20) to which homophobic paul calls that death decree and others"god's righteous decree" (Romans 1:26-32) nowhere in the Buddhist tradition does it ever call for the death of anyone let alone gay men. In actuality, the abrahamic religions are the barbaric religions. ➡️Just imagine if the buddha had called for the death of anyone & then one of his disciples called said death decree "Buddha's righteous decree"😣 * *shudder* *
@@ring-tone278 seriously dude, has the omnipotent creator of the universe told you to spam a secular channel because somehow he needs your help to spread his message?
@@ring-tone278 why are you posting verses from the bible(a religious text) on a channel that uses research, history and peer reviewed studies/findings to challenge the infallibility of religious texts such as the bible?
@@ring-tone278”The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible.” -Mark Twain
@@ring-tone278 lol they wove that in their text like every cult would bc even at that particular time, people were seeing through the BS and leaving that religion, we have record both within the bible text and outside sources of people who had left the religion.
After two months of watching MythVision, I’m realizing that everything is pagan.
Thanks, Derek. These videos which delve into the wider context around Christianity and besides Christianity are enlightening. 👍
Really appreciate that!
But in all sincerity holy crap this is a lot of quality information. Amazing and knowledgeable guest!
This is the part of history that apologists conveniently leave out when they pretend that Christians were the only ones to aspire towards holiness and everyone else was just evil and feasting the human brains of their enemies all day or something since jesus wasn’t around yet.
Almost as if God is intuitively known, ie. Gnostic.
@@edwardtalbot5556more like intuitively imagined
Vague Infinite Gods are easily imaginable, unlike the infinite FSM, which is why we know the FSM is true. It just feels true also, how could it possibly have memed without it being superduperhyperuberGod?
@@amosfwo4609...I've found that a heroic dose of ayahuasca is so very enlightening; so much better than LSD. Have you tried these? The best for imagination. Might I suggest the ayahuasca. Real eye opener that one.
what is holiness
CORRECTION! Just around 13:45 I said "third century BCE" in reference to Alexander's conquest. I should have said "late FOURTH century BCE". DUH. Sorry. :/
Pythagoras means Heart of the Serpent, he was born in Sidon, a fishing Port in Phoenicia. His mother recieved a message from the Oracle of Delphi that he would become a great Leader and Teacher. Sidon means Kingdom of the Fish, and the Essenes, who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls, worshipped Pythagoras. The Sarcophagus of Eschmun III found in Sidon names him as the Widow's Scion, aka Hiram Abiff, the Founder of Freemasonry, of which Tyre was the premier Capital (at least equal to Thebes).
In 911BC Rameses II married the Queen of Sidon, home of Jezebel (Daughter or consort of Baal, basically "Queen") founding Neo Assyrian Babylon, an alliance between Egypt and Hiram, father of Jezebel and King of Assyria, and Egypt, forming the Phoenician colonies and building the first Temple of Melqart to commemorate the alliance.
The Si in Sidon is the basis of the Latin Exe, or X, and is the basis of the Cross, or Chi Rho that Constantine painted on his shields. Also known as the Cross of Tyre, or Cross of Baal, being Ra-El, or Ba'El. Oddly enough irrational numbers can also be mapped using Euler's number, producing a Templar Cross in the process. This cross can also be seen around the neck of Nimrod in Assyria, and is consistent with the Union Jack, and Solstice Calendar found in the Vatican Shiva Lingam.
Shiva is the Hebrew word for 7, their culture also found its way to Japan (via the Phillipines) ultimately becoming Shintoism.
It was the Phoenicians who gave their name to the Pole Star, which they used to Navigate the Oceans using the Zodiac, thats what the Antikythera mechanism was for, and with it they wrote the Byblos Baal, what we now call the Bible. The first form of the Bible was written in 325BC and called the Vaticanus Greacus, or Son of the Sacred Serpent, a reference to Sirius, the basis of the Sothic Calendar, which uses a Hexidecimal or base 60 system found in all the Megalithic sites around the world.
In the second century AD astronomer Valentinus Vettori transcribed it into a Lunar chart of 13 houses, what we now call the Zodiac. Horoscope means Star Watcher, and the Phoenician word for Saturn, or El, was Israel or El, (Fruit) of Isis and Ra.
El is the primary God of the Phoenicians, representing the offspring of Egypt, and his consort Astarte represents the Assyrian half of the alliance. It may be possible to trace lineages and alliances through the naming of gods, which can be traced all the way to Ireland and the Vikings, and to Indonesia and the Americas, even as far away as New Zealand and Australia.
It denotes Sirius as Son of Orion and Pleaides, which sits at 33 degrees of the Zodiac. The basis of the Sothic (dir Seth) Calendar of the Egyptians. The New Moon in this position marks Rosh Hashanah, the Egyptian, Celtic, Phoenician, and Assyrian New Year, the first New Moon of September, which is called September because it's the 7th House of the Zodiac, when the Sun is in Ophiuchus.
The Phoenix, Benben, or Bennu is the Egyptian word for Heron, a Feathered 'Serpent'. It baptised itself in frankincense and myrrh at BaalBek, and then alights atop the Pyramid, upon the Holy Grail, or Alter of Ra every 630 years to take three days off the calendar during the course of the first New Moon of Nisan, which means "Prince". The Capstone of Pyramids is even called the Benben or Bennu.
The Phoenix is found in all religions, which are all Astrological Allegory for the Moon travelling through the Constellations, as a soul migrating from body to body, this is the basis of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth, or the Hero's Journey. The various planets no doubt play their own roles as portents, omens, and aspects, this astrology is the science of the Bronze age, and lasted all the way up to the 20th Century. Resurrection was an early teaching of the Christian Church, and likely relates to the lineage of Kings (The King is Dead, long live the King.)
Phoenicians represent the interim step between Egypt and Greece, their artisans and culture exceeding that of the Greeks, who literally adopted the Phoenician Alphabet, which we still use to this day, sounding out words phonetically. Phoenician is aliiterated in Venetian, and Vikings, being Kings of the Sea.
The Bennu is the Egyptian Phoenix, to Phoenicians the Hoyle, no different to the traditions of the Etruscans, who saw birds as sacred, just as the Celts. Hebrew and Iber as in Iberia have the same root meaning over, as in overseas, as in those who travel "over the sea." A colony called Iberia also appears on the Eastern shores of the Black Sea, where the same Dolmens and Megalithic culture originating in Ireland and Brittany appeared circa 4500BC.
_Phoenician_ means Scions of the Phoenix, the first Bible: Vaticanus Greacus Son of the Sacred Serpent (Prince). Then there's the Essenes, Sons of Light, the Tuatha De Danaan, Sons of Light, Annunaki, Sons of Light, Arthur Pendragon means Arthur Son of the dragon, Chertoff is Russian for "Son of the Devil" and Dracula also means Son of the Dragon, Masons have been known at times to call themselves the "Brotherhood of the Great White Serpent". The Ziggurat of Anu also denotes her as a great white Serpent, while New Grange and the Bru na Boinne in Ireland (4000BC) coated buildings with white quartz to denote the Moon. The Moon itself travels outside the Solar Elliptic by 5 degrees, which means it passes through specific constellations in a serpentine fashion that is always changing, but repeats every 19 years, the time it took to train a Druid or Magi, Magi meaning "Teacher" the Phoenix is also associated with this sacred number 19.
The name "Pharoah" means "Great House"
or "House of Light" and Cairo used to be called Babel. Pharaoh's themselves wore a hooded crown representing feathers, just as Native American Chiefs, ie the Feathered Serpent, they were also called the Commander in Chief. Aztecs also had Serpent Kings, (Canaan means Serpent Kings, and Sidon was a Son of Canaan, and Great Grandson of Noah) who were called to lead with cunning and guile, being the very virtue by which they claim the title in the first place; but to be seen in public as just and diplomatic.
"As wise as Serpents, but gentle as Doves" the old Egyptian flag of an Eagle attacking a Snake is also reflected in the Modern Mexican flag, denoting the Constellations of Serpentis (13th sign of the Zodiac) and Aquila.
The dimensions and 12 mathematical constants of the Great Pyramid are also expressed in New Grange, and Stonehenge, as well as in Watson Brake, (2500BC) and Teotihuacan, which correlates to the Phoenician/ Sumerian Hexidecimal system, which is what our modern systems of time are based on.
Officially no one knows who invented astrology, the zodiac, navigation by the stars, and time keeping. But whoever built the pyramids, and pioneered the 24hr clock in Egypt 5000 years ago also knew the exact dimensions of the Earth, as well as the speed of light. These calculations can all be made using these Megalithic sites as surveyors use a theodolite. Specifically Teotihuacan, which sits 180 degrees opposite Cairo, and has the exact same footprint. The ideal positions to determine the speed of light using the transit of Venus, by which one can accurately determine Longitude for navigation. Capt cook did the same thing in 1774 when he 'discovered' Easter Island.
The only culture that fits the bill was wiped out "not one stone upon the other" by the Romans in 146BC. Tyre, the capital of Phoenicia (israel) sat just offshore from Ur Shalom, City of the New Moon, or City of Peace. The root of the name Jerusalem, and was also seized by Rome in 70AD after a 13 year seige. The gap between is 216 years.
Greek Dionysians built the Temple of Solomon (now called the Temple of Melqart) representing the Solar Lunar Metonic Calendar on which this system is based, they also carried mirrors, a practice associated with both the Magi and the Druids as well as Greek and Egyptian scholars, these Mirrors are Astrological charts called "Cycladian Frying Pans" and record the cycles of the planets. The first Temple of Melqart (the Phoenician form of Horus, or Hercules, or Pan, or Thor) representing the 13th Constellation of Ophiuchus or the Serpent Bearer (hence Orphic Serpent worship) had pillars of Emerald and Gold, representing Isis and Osiris. The Jerusalem Temple only took payment in "Shekels of Tyre" a currency minted during the Jewish rebellion against Rome. "Give that which is Ceasar's unto Ceasar"
When Alexander sacked Tyre in 332BC they moved to Carthage meaning "New City" or New Jerusalem, where they built a second temple with Pillars of Bronze.
Nebuchadnezzar also seiged Tyre for 13 years, taking the City captive in 573BC: the same time as the biblical account of the Jews. And again in 70AD after a three and a half year seige, also consistent with biblical accounts.
@@Uncanny_Mountain take your meds bro
I love your ending description of the whole scope of religion as a human thing.
Thank you. This filled a gap in my exploration of world religions and their evolution.
I just realized you have the "Huge audience applause" in the background when you introduced him! 😁 Nice detail!
Joe really painted a great picture and filled in a lot of gaps!
Now every peeping Tom or Tammy is going to see if they can go on vacation in southern India!😁
One of your best podcasts ever Derek!
SECOND CORRECTION! Although I "sort of" corrected this late in the video when I correctly noted that Bahubali is "legendary" and not historical. I should be more clear.
Bahubali is (in fact) the offspring of the first Tirthankara of Jainism, a primordial master who would have lived in a previous aeon in the far distant past. Off the cuff, I misremembered him as a character set in a somewhat more recent world-era.
@redskoda14 mentioned this mistake in another comment.
Actually it's spelled 'Tirthankara,' (the one who crosses the 'tirtha', flood; not tritha).
Thanks. Fixed.@@carlosaramayo7633. I think there is a parallel in the Buddhist concept of Sotapanna (stream-enterer or stream-winner).
My grandmother was a JW. But I became convinced she was a reincarnated Jain. Her description of the new world would have been a Jain utopia.
So the Jedi are a Shramanic sect . One is never too old to learn something new 😉
This is incredible!
This was amazing!
@51:00 I made a community post last week about this very issue with the green grass in Mark. It is important to note, for one thing, that grass in the Galilee IS NOT only green in the Spring. It is much more accurate to say that it is green for half the year through the Winter and into the Spring.
Moreover, it is patently obvious why this is mentioned by Mark; it is not a "casual" detail. Rather, it fits perfectly within Mark's efforts to teach about the "Good Shepherd," and in alignment with various images reminiscent of Psalm 23.
Awesome @DrKippDavis. Total low hanging fruit there.
Whoa, and fruit is ripe in late summer!
@@steveng.clinard1766Only EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY could possibly explain this!
Could the Gnostic's have been a form of Jainism?
No, “gnostic” Christians simply believed that you needed to “know” Joshua/Jesus/the-way to gain easy happy immortality, that “faith” without works was dead and that “faith” without knowledge was just a lie. The Christians that won against them refused the high bar of works or even knowledge and opted for naked “faith” only , where only self-perceived membership mattered without the work of knowledge or the work of physical efforts (“works”) since that is the best way to increase attendance which means increased donations.
It all happened in Ireland and Brittany 7000 years ago
Long before Egypt, Sumeria, and Indus civilisations
Pythagoras means Heart of the Serpent, he was born in Sidon, a fishing Port in Phoenicia. His mother recieved a message from the Oracle of Delphi that he would become a great Leader and Teacher. Sidon means Kingdom of the Fish, and the Essenes, who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls, worshipped Pythagoras. The Sarcophagus of Eschmun III found in Sidon names him as the Widow's Scion, aka Hiram Abiff, the Founder of Freemasonry, of which Tyre was the premier Capital (at least equal to Thebes).
In 911BC Rameses II married the Queen of Sidon, home of Jezebel (Daughter or consort of Baal, basically "Queen") founding Neo Assyrian Babylon, an alliance between Egypt and Hiram, father of Jezebel and King of Assyria, and Egypt, forming the Phoenician colonies and building the first Temple of Melqart to commemorate the alliance.
The Si in Sidon is the basis of the Latin Exe, or X, and is the basis of the Cross, or Chi Rho that Constantine painted on his shields. Also known as the Cross of Tyre, or Cross of Baal, being Ra-El, or Ba'El. Oddly enough irrational numbers can also be mapped using Euler's number, producing a Templar Cross in the process. This cross can also be seen around the neck of Nimrod in Assyria, and is consistent with the Union Jack, and Solstice Calendar found in the Vatican Shiva Lingam.
Shiva is the Hebrew word for 7, their culture also found its way to Japan (via the Phillipines) ultimately becoming Shintoism.
It was the Phoenicians who gave their name to the Pole Star, which they used to Navigate the Oceans using the Zodiac, thats what the Antikythera mechanism was for, and with it they wrote the Byblos Baal, what we now call the Bible. The first form of the Bible was written in 325BC and called the Vaticanus Greacus, or Son of the Sacred Serpent, a reference to Sirius, the basis of the Sothic Calendar, which uses a Hexidecimal or base 60 system found in all the Megalithic sites around the world.
In the second century AD astronomer Valentinus Vettori transcribed it into a Lunar chart of 13 houses, what we now call the Zodiac. Horoscope means Star Watcher, and the Phoenician word for Saturn, or El, was Israel or El, (Fruit) of Isis and Ra.
El is the primary God of the Phoenicians, representing the offspring of Egypt, and his consort Astarte represents the Assyrian half of the alliance. It may be possible to trace lineages and alliances through the naming of gods, which can be traced all the way to Ireland and the Vikings, and to Indonesia and the Americas, even as far away as New Zealand and Australia.
It denotes Sirius as Son of Orion and Pleaides, which sits at 33 degrees of the Zodiac. The basis of the Sothic (dir Seth) Calendar of the Egyptians. The New Moon in this position marks Rosh Hashanah, the Egyptian, Celtic, Phoenician, and Assyrian New Year, the first New Moon of September, which is called September because it's the 7th House of the Zodiac, when the Sun is in Ophiuchus.
The Phoenix, Benben, or Bennu is the Egyptian word for Heron, a Feathered 'Serpent'. It baptised itself in frankincense and myrrh at BaalBek, and then alights atop the Pyramid, upon the Holy Grail, or Alter of Ra every 630 years to take three days off the calendar during the course of the first New Moon of Nisan, which means "Prince". The Capstone of Pyramids is even called the Benben or Bennu.
The Phoenix is found in all religions, which are all Astrological Allegory for the Moon travelling through the Constellations, as a soul migrating from body to body, this is the basis of Joseph Campbell's Monomyth, or the Hero's Journey. The various planets no doubt play their own roles as portents, omens, and aspects, this astrology is the science of the Bronze age, and lasted all the way up to the 20th Century. Resurrection was an early teaching of the Christian Church, and likely relates to the lineage of Kings (The King is Dead, long live the King.)
Phoenicians represent the interim step between Egypt and Greece, their artisans and culture exceeding that of the Greeks, who literally adopted the Phoenician Alphabet, which we still use to this day, sounding out words phonetically. Phoenician is aliiterated in Venetian, and Vikings, being Kings of the Sea.
The Bennu is the Egyptian Phoenix, to Phoenicians the Hoyle, no different to the traditions of the Etruscans, who saw birds as sacred, just as the Celts. Hebrew and Iber as in Iberia have the same root meaning over, as in overseas, as in those who travel "over the sea." A colony called Iberia also appears on the Eastern shores of the Black Sea, where the same Dolmens and Megalithic culture originating in Ireland and Brittany appeared circa 4500BC.
_Phoenician_ means Scions of the Phoenix, the first Bible: Vaticanus Greacus Son of the Sacred Serpent (Prince). Then there's the Essenes, Sons of Light, the Tuatha De Danaan, Sons of Light, Annunaki, Sons of Light, Arthur Pendragon means Arthur Son of the dragon, Chertoff is Russian for "Son of the Devil" and Dracula also means Son of the Dragon, Masons have been known at times to call themselves the "Brotherhood of the Great White Serpent". The Ziggurat of Anu also denotes her as a great white Serpent, while New Grange and the Bru na Boinne in Ireland (4000BC) coated buildings with white quartz to denote the Moon. The Moon itself travels outside the Solar Elliptic by 5 degrees, which means it passes through specific constellations in a serpentine fashion that is always changing, but repeats every 19 years, the time it took to train a Druid or Magi, Magi meaning "Teacher" the Phoenix is also associated with this sacred number 19.
The name "Pharoah" means "Great House"
or "House of Light" and Cairo used to be called Babel. Pharaoh's themselves wore a hooded crown representing feathers, just as Native American Chiefs, ie the Feathered Serpent, they were also called the Commander in Chief. Aztecs also had Serpent Kings, (Canaan means Serpent Kings, and Sidon was a Son of Canaan, and Great Grandson of Noah) who were called to lead with cunning and guile, being the very virtue by which they claim the title in the first place; but to be seen in public as just and diplomatic.
"As wise as Serpents, but gentle as Doves" the old Egyptian flag of an Eagle attacking a Snake is also reflected in the Modern Mexican flag, denoting the Constellations of Serpentis (13th sign of the Zodiac) and Aquila.
The dimensions and 12 mathematical constants of the Great Pyramid are also expressed in New Grange, and Stonehenge, as well as in Watson Brake, (2500BC) and Teotihuacan, which correlates to the Phoenician/ Sumerian Hexidecimal system, which is what our modern systems of time are based on.
Officially no one knows who invented astrology, the zodiac, navigation by the stars, and time keeping. But whoever built the pyramids, and pioneered the 24hr clock in Egypt 5000 years ago also knew the exact dimensions of the Earth, as well as the speed of light. These calculations can all be made using these Megalithic sites as surveyors use a theodolite. Specifically Teotihuacan, which sits 180 degrees opposite Cairo, and has the exact same footprint. The ideal positions to determine the speed of light using the transit of Venus, by which one can accurately determine Longitude for navigation. Capt cook did the same thing in 1774 when he 'discovered' Easter Island.
The only culture that fits the bill was wiped out "not one stone upon the other" by the Romans in 146BC. Tyre, the capital of Phoenicia (israel) sat just offshore from Ur Shalom, City of the New Moon, or City of Peace. The root of the name Jerusalem, and was also seized by Rome in 70AD after a 13 year seige. The gap between is 216 years.
Greek Dionysians built the Temple of Solomon (now called the Temple of Melqart) representing the Solar Lunar Metonic Calendar on which this system is based, they also carried mirrors, a practice associated with both the Magi and the Druids as well as Greek and Egyptian scholars, these Mirrors are Astrological charts called "Cycladian Frying Pans" and record the cycles of the planets. The first Temple of Melqart (the Phoenician form of Horus, or Hercules, or Pan, or Thor) representing the 13th Constellation of Ophiuchus or the Serpent Bearer (hence Orphic Serpent worship) had pillars of Emerald and Gold, representing Isis and Osiris. The Jerusalem Temple only took payment in "Shekels of Tyre" a currency minted during the Jewish rebellion against Rome. "Give that which is Ceasar's unto Ceasar"
When Alexander sacked Tyre in 332BC they moved to Carthage meaning "New City" or New Jerusalem, where they built a second temple with Pillars of Bronze.
Nebuchadnezzar also seiged Tyre for 13 years, taking the City captive in 573BC: the same time as the biblical account of the Jews. And again in 70AD after a three and a half year seige, also consistent with biblical accounts.
@@Uncanny_Mountain You managed to use every logical fallacy ever created.
No. If anything it would have been a rational response to those who wanted to reject Xtian orthodoxy. Also you can see a direct evolutionary line between platonism, to neoplatonism and gnosticism.
@@Uncanny_Mountain What source do you have that a Vatican Graecus was written in 325bc?
Thank you for bringing this great and insightful discussion with Dr. Wilson.
In terms of the religions that originated out of India, my understanding is that there is a Dharma called Sanatana Dharma which is practiced there. The people who lived around the ancient river Indus (Indus Valley Civilization) were called Hindus by the Persians because of their pronunciation of the word Sindhu where the S became a H deriving the people as Hindu. These people practiced a way of life, which was not a religion, and that way of life started getting associated with the Persion pronunciation of the region as Hindu. Even today, Sanatana Dharma or Hindu is not a religion, like the religions of the book, the Abrahamic religions are. Also, Sanatana Dharma is accepting of all religions and does not require you to believe in God, whereas the Abrahamic religions require you to only believe in their God, else you're termed as a non-believer who needs to be converted to their religion and belief (with Christianity and Islam being very vocal in wanting to convert you). In fact, in Santana Dharma (or Hindu practice) there is no concept of conversion because it considers you to possess divinity in just the way you are, and don't need divinity from or by following a particular religion. Also, Sanatana Dharma has a saying in Sanskrit "Aham Brahmasmi" which means I have God within me or in literal terms meaning I am divine. The bowing of head with folded hands (🙏) to another person, called or doing a Namaste, is actually saying hello or paying respect to the divinity that resides within you. The Abrahamic religions have their Gods outside of you, and you never see or meet God ... the transition you get after death is to a heaven where you still don't have God or meet God as I understand. Whereas Sanatana Dharma (Hindu practice) says that God is within you and you need to awaken your awareness of the divinity within you. So, as I understand, Sanatana Dharma or Hindu are not religions but have been reduced to one to be able to compare to the Abrahamic religions and sects by the Westerners who can't grasp Sanatana Dharma without taking this reductionist approach. The Papal Bull aka The Doctrine of Discovery issued by Pope Alexander VI on May 4, 1493, as I understand provided the basis for discovering and plundering all non-Christian lands and people, and convert them to Christianity or eliminate them if they didn't accept Christianity. Wherever the Christians landed, in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, Africa etc. they worked to eliminate local / native cultures and practices to impose Christianity and eliminate any and all pagan practices. Islam followed the same practice of conversion or elimination, just more violently, with the words from their Book, without needing a Papal Bull. Sanatana Dharma still remains the only native pagan practice dating back thousands of years, 1000s of years before Judaism or Christianity came along, that even today remains alive and practiced in Bharat (India) despite the arrival of Islam and Christianity to India almost a 1000 years ago. Sorry for the long note, but thought I'll put forth what I have learnt from my readings and understandings. I continue to try and learn more about the Sanatana Dharma in my journey of growth and understanding.
One of the best episodes. Because it delves into the diversity of the Indian religions which I had no idea about!
Samsara. Today we know this endless suffering over and over as Groundhog Day.
Thank you MythVision 😊
I find the "history of atheism" an interesting concept. I see my own atheism as a very personal thing, not at all dependent on anyone else's prior thinking. From an early age, I have just not seen any reason to believe in any supernatural being and saw many of the Christian beliefs and justifications as absurd.
Hey, just a question with no malice behind it.
I know you are an atheist; I am curious as to what you think of when you think of the concept of God.
Do you imagine a man in the sky or a force? Because I was an atheist when my perception of God was as a "Sky daddy". But when I read about the mystics of the world my thoughts and ideas around God became more of a concept of a "First cause and sustainer" or "the ground of being", similar to the Tao.
Thinking of God in that way caused me to become a deist in some form or other.
@@Tom-sd9jb Interesting. I went through the same process, but realized "a man in the sky or a force", "Sky daddy", "first cause and sustainer" or "the ground of being", or whatever - *_it's all in your head!_* Humans have no way of *knowing* the truth for sure in these matters. We can eliminate some possibilities perhaps, but there are many many many more, even beyond our wildest imagination and ability to comprehend. So my conclusion is (for me) - dabble in religion, spirituality, the transcendental or whatever and have fun, acknowledge possibilities beyond your imagination and ability to comprehend, *BUT ALWAYS* stick to reason, common and equal humanity of all and to observable reality in your real life!!! Cheers!
I find it hard to have any concept of a god. My view of the world sees no need for anything like any god. Which of the thousands (if not millions) of postulated god concepts do you think I should consider? @@Tom-sd9jb
Great share.
Erm, buddhism is never theistic, because no type of buddhism assumes a creator god who is judging beings for their deeds after they die. On the other hand buddhism is not atheist in the sense of contemporary atheists, who are materialists who believe that mind ends with the death of the body. No buddhist believes that mind dies with the death of the body.
Theism can be broadly or narrowly defined. Buddhists are very diverse on the topic. They are not uniform.
@@AnthroJoe Buddhists universally reject the idea of a creator God. They believe devas exist, which is translated as gods, but they arent the center of the religion the way they are in the pagan religions
I found this interview fascinating as a theist I want to understand and learn about different world views and what is the reality behind everything. Rather than just listen to one view and accept it. Education is something really important because presents you the reality.
But is there an underlying reality behind everything? We create reality in our minds and then build that reality by our actions/karma. Sure groups of like minded individuals have a shared reality but it’s still a little bit different. Take the various realities among just Christian denominations.
@@terranhealer so your saying is there really something supernatural or God like beyond the physical world or have humans invented supernatural being to explain the cause of everything.
@DomainofKnowledge859 right, I'm saying we create the narrative of reality from our dreams and imagination. There may be supernatural forces (ghosts) out there but I suspect they don't have much control over the living world.
@@terranhealerwe create reality in our minds? Did you create your own body and mind before you were born?
@tylerdavis520 who are you to tell me I wasn't a spirit that chose to this mortal coil in order to experience time and space? So yes, I do believe that there are morphogenetic fields that are effected by whatever mind/consciousness is.
Incredible🙌that you would share this --->>to all who will listen and are Totally Into Open Eyes to The Obvious.
Amazing history that is just way too interesting to be ignored so much!
Oow.
I dont know much about Jainism.
But they were always cool with me🕊♾️🕊
5 mins in, & its Fascinating 🤗
Ego= vanity.
I've been told by 2 ex-hindus that there is a major branch of Hinduism that holds the gods are metaphors and the soul does not exist. This seems like an excellent starting point to learn more.
Lol wtf is an 'ex-hindhu', either u r indian or u r not. I guess they've given up identity roots to their indian culture?
@@NonamamHindu isn't the same thing as being an Indian.
@@MrWaterlionmonkey in every sense of that word u r wrong.
@@Nonamam Last I checked, there are non-Hindu Indians. A 2011 census found that about 14% of the Indian population were Muslim, 2% were Christian, and 1.7% were Sikh. I don't know if Hindus count Sikhs as "Hindus," but they definitely can't count Christians and Muslims as Hindus. There are also multiple ethnic groups within India, with Hinduism being practiced across those groups. So there's no connection between nationality, ethnicity, and religion; should you be implying otherwise, I am concerned that you may be trying to advocate for some kind of theocratic nationalist narrative which is reductive, false, and dangerous. Can you clarify what you mean?
O
I've always been intrigued by eastern region. Spent a couple years in Japan.
Thank you Derek the interesting interview
Dr. Michael Sugrue on one of his podcasts was talking about ancient mysteries or something but mentioned the possibility that the therapeutae monks that existed in Egypt around the birth of Jesus could have been inspired by Buddhist missionaries that were sent by Emperor Ashoka with some ending up in ancient Rome.
Their order could have been set up by the Buddhist missionary monks sent by Ashoka and by that time the denomination and word Theravada (Way of the Elders) already existed, plus that was the denomination Ashoka preferred.
@@zoarduskhan2339Ashoka preferred the Theravada? Interesting, especially because he was so instrumental in the spread of Mahayana.
@@scottkunghadrengsen2604 Well it used to be called Vibhajyavada or to be more precise that's the bigger movement Theravada is part of, theravadins are direct descendants to Sri Lankan vibhajyavadas. Ashoka bankrolled the Third Buddhist Council and was a patron to the monk Moggaliputtatissa to whom a famous orthodox theravadin text the Kathavattu is attributed (probably didn't write the whole thing and it wasn't finished in Ashoka's time). Mahayana didn't really take form for another century after all this and was probably a tiny group until another 4-5 centuries later.
@zoarduskhan2339 Thanks for the clarification and precise understanding. I always assumed(public pillars and lay conversion) that he was part of the cultural(if not literal)push towards Mahayana. It also sounds like dates have become much more precise since my time in graduate school . lol
Strabo says the Gymnosophists stood on one leg holding a stave above their heads all day ; this is exactly what Moses did when he battled the Amalekites. Early church fathers noted that an Indian sect of Samanoi ( Sramana) wore only bark clothes as the Buddhists did. They note that Philo's Essene teacher Banus was said to have done the same.
The Jains were mostly Licchavi just as the majority of the Theistic Mahasamghikas Buddhist schools.
The prohet Isaiah going naked , Job pulling out his hair and wearing cast off rags, turning a staff into a naja cobra as sadhus today even coax the naga cobra into a staff or rod, are likely of the Sramanic, or. Shamanic system.
In the Manusamhita the Licchavis are called " Niccabis ": the Nisibis of Syria and the Palestinian Nusseibeh who were in Jerusalem after the time of Alexander must be the Nysoi near Taxila who claimed Dionysus established them on his return from Indian conquest.
The reluctance to read Sramana (Sans. 'sram', "peace", cognate salam, calm) as Shaman is as unjustified as not reading Parsee as Pharisee, Sheshonk as Shisunaga and etc .
The Zarmanochegas, or Shakya-Sramana self-immolated in Athens about 19 b.c. and left a long standing monument nearby.
It is true that most Buddhist schools abhorred nakedness but the followers of the Sanghabhedavastu section of the Mulasarvastivadin vinaya end their book with the Buddha disrobing and saying " Monks, behold the true body of the Tathagatas", compared to the Gospel of Thomas when Jesus says he will return when his followers throw off their clothes and trample in them like children
So you are saying that because members of other religions engaged in these practices before Christians or Jews, that proves that they copied these from the Abrahamic religions? Right.
@@michaelnewsham1412 no
Christians say God is real because almost every culture believes in some form of God. Ok, well I just watched an interesting documentary on the history of vampires/the belief of vampires. Most cultures have a history of belief in some form of vampires. So are vampires real according to that argument?
When I was bored and inspired by AA meetings to have religiosity I invented a new faith of Jainism-Christianity, which is neither, but takes from Jainism ahimsa to animals and animal rights, but from Christianity that one can eat meat as long as you're not dumb enough to try to excuse or justify it, as with Paul saying eating meat is ok as long as you don't condone or take part in the sacrifices. There is a wisdom to this that many are forced to eat meat as children and punished for expressing interest in veganism or animal rights, and not everyone controls their life or diet. Furthermore, animal rights cannot be achieved through personal choice, but only by passing laws banning meat and enforced whether people like it or not. Also, I read something about mahayana Christianity from the dune mythos and thought I would do one better; plus, people are hypocrites who never adhere to their religion anyway, thus religion might as well have the very highest of values, and not encumbered by making excuses for the failings of humans.
Many Buddhists have a similar view - do not take life and eat whatever is offered. This is one of the differences between Buddhism and Jainism.
Thank you so much.
If you want info from someone who grew up as a Jain, talk to Hemant Mehta.
The "gymnos" means nude lmao
You are correct. Nude and ALSO gymnastic i.e. exercise. Both connotations are appropriate in both the Greek and Indian examples. "To exercise nude" is what is done in the gymnasium. Yoga (the activity of Gymnosophists) is likewise a rigorous physical exercise that happens to be done without clothing on...
Karma aka you reap what you sow.
Appropriate timing - I've been curious about the shramanic traditions and recently started research again! They are very anti-orthodox, just like Jesus with the Pharisees.
Am i hearing skyrim...?
To me this just shows reliability of inconsequential ora traditions 😊
*JAINISM FOREVER* 👍🕉️🙏
Derrick if you can, Koenraad Elst is a scholar you should get on!
Wow!
*"Jainism"* is the Most Scientific Philosophy *!*
karma might be something that only oppresses the underclasses, why do the elite scum never recive punishment and its always the poor areas that are flooded out.
You're saying rich people never suffer horribly. And that is utterly false.
No soul except the liberated one’s are free of karma. Karma is just not a simple concept of action/reaction it’s way more deep
I listened to the whole thing and missed the undedesgne coincidence
About 42 mins in
Sorry it took so long to get there. It shows how RARE a genuine example is.
Rare? Have you read the response to your presentation "MYTHVISION’S MISGUIDED QUEST TO DEBUNK UNDESIGNED COINCIDENCES IS GETTING WEIRD"? It seems to me that you misunderstood the actual argument these people are making@@AnthroJoe
@notanemoprog I have not read the book. I did read Erik's blog where he talks about "sausage" and made a thumbnail that is frankly trivializing to Jainism. Nudity is not the main focus here, but the details surrounding that nudity, which are both (apparently) coincidental and demonstrably undesigned. Erik does not address the issue of the vines head on, but instead chalks it up to "external confirmation" which he says is DIFFERENT from undesigned coincidence, but also abundant in the Gospel narratives. I am left scratching my head. How are the two things different in the Gospels? Is internal coincidence "undesigned" and external "confirmed"? Why exactly? None of this is normal ancient historiographic methodology when dealing with interdependent synoptic traditions. Design is default. The undesigned claim is the indefensible part.
Thanks for the response. I'm going to reread and rewatch everything to try and better understand your point. I hope you continue the exchange with Erik because in the end I suppose you both are interested in the truth of the matter @@AnthroJoe
I watched this whole interview just for an old drawing of four naked guys wearing vines?? Of all the "undesigned coincidences" we could have covered (not the least of which you included in the thumbnail, i.e. eye in the palm/stigmata of Christ), we got a history overview and one single "coincidence?"
Interesting.....
It wasn't about the general phenomenon of coincidence - but undesigned coincidences pointing to some kind of shared experience between observers. My take is that such a thing should be a very high bar. Such things are extremely rare, IMHO, which is why it took so long to get there.
@@AnthroJoe "extremely rare"... I categorically disagree. They are so abundant I believe we've become blind to them, a.k.a. serendipity and synchronicity. They happen on the daily and have for all of history.
@ianwalker5907 you declare them undesigned, and therefore abundant. Undesigned status must be demonstrated and not merely asserted. When texts are literally interdependent, that is a tall order. My example is one where independence is demonstrated. Your examples are not.
@@AnthroJoe I hope you're joking.... Are you saying you've never heard how all the religious figures of every faith are copies of each other?? Like, Abraham and Sarah/ Brahma and Saraswati, Mithra/Messiah, Enki/Enoch, Seth/Set, Krishna/Christ/Tamuz, Lao Tsu/Gautama Buddha, El/Allah.... have you ever read Secret Teachings of all ages? It's not a "tall order." It's something my seven year old fully grasps.
@@ianwalker5907 Those are not undesigned coincidences reflecting a common historical memory. Some of them are valid examples of cultural diffusion and language change.
Some of them are spurious folk-etymologies based on superficial sound-alike resemblances.
The book you mention is not a credible academic source, but an artifact of early 20th century esoteric pseudo-history.
👀
🫶
I know, right?!
Did the Greek literary writers at the time of Jesus know about Buddism or Shramaniism teachings or writings was there any connection or association ???
Yes, they did.
That is a controversial topic. Depends on who you ask. I think that not every New Testament source is the same. Zacharaias Thundy made a case that Matthew's work is heavily influenced by Persian religion, and that could have included some Buddhist stuff too.
It comes from Ireland, 7000 years ago. The Celts colonised the Middle east around 4000 years ago, leaving as the Bronze they invented turned to cheap iron. They were for the most part peaceful and weren't equipped for mass warfare, that's why we find the same traditions in China and India, they were part of the prehistoric Celtic world
@@Uncanny_Mountain The Celts 4000 years ago are very poorly defined, and at that stage they were on their way west TOWARDS Ireland, not spreading eastward from it. I tend to avoid nationalistic debates. The Indo-Europeans at that stage included Celts and many other similar groups are very hard to define. Indo-Europeans certainly SPREAD Bronze, but we do not know who invented it.
@@AnthroJoe wrong
Two thirds of all Neolithic art comes from the Bru na Boinne, so do the Cairns and Tumulus later found in Georgia. You can literally trace their steps from Hephaestus to Carthage
Maybe you should look into it rather than acting like you're the world authority on everything
The Shramanas were not in opposition to the Brahmanical philosophies.
Philosophies? Maybe, maybe not, but the various strands of Indic philosophy co-evolved after this time. They were DEFINITELY opposed to certain normative PRACTICES like blood sacrifice and caste heirarchies. Orthopraxy vs. orthodoxy.
I have no great investment in historicity arguments about Buddha or Mahavira. CI Beckwith has suggested they were one and the same person (or more specifically, that Mahavira is a schismatic buddhist revision of the character). But I don't see much evidence either way. @ajaysamanta9661
The caste system is older than writing itself. It is proto-Indo-European and is paralleled in Celtic, Latin, Greek and Persian cultures. @ajaysamanta9661
Some more meatballs in the spaghetti soup of Eastern religion. Enlightening.
I'm a hedonist my self, I eat ,drink and make merry,knowing one day I will die.
I did that
It was horrible
Got fat, had heart problems, was miserable and sick
Now I'm skinny, know who I am and my purpose
Hedonism is death
You could go even further back than the time of Alexander the Greats conquest of Northern India(c. 327bc). Zoroastrianism has been shown by many scholars to have had plenty of eastern influence in it's belief system and the founding of that religion is typically dated to c. 700bc.(about the same time as Jainism). Which most scholars agree was founded in ancient Iran, which spread as far as modern day Pakistan, the same general area in which Hinduism and Jainism were practiced. So, there was already the influence from Hinduism at least, which spawns the movement that would become Jainism, within the area that Zoroastrianism was practiced. You could even argue that Zoroastrianism was one of the competing sects alongside Jainism due to their foundings both being dated to roughly the same century. And it can also be noted that Christianity barrows heavily from the myths of Zoraster. Some scholars even go so far as to point out that Paul(the man who spread Christianity to the non-jewish people) was raised in the tradition of Mithra, which many argue was the Greek/Roman influence on the traditions of Zoroastrianism(as the Greeks and Roman's did with most neighboring religions, it was adapted to their mythos and added their own flare to it). And scholars speculate that the reason the cult of Mithras and Zoroastrianism have so many parallels or similarities to Christianity is largely due to Paul's upbringing and being within a culture that had these same things, and he incorporated them into his version of Christianity. This also can explain why Peter had a major dispute with Paul. Peter ended up largely preaching to the Jewish peoples and Paul preached to the gentiles(or non-jewish) peoples.
I can see where he's coming from in using the oldest version of Karma, within the older Hindu texts. However I think it should be stated that Buddhism broke away from Hinduism. Hinduism came first, then Buddhism(c. 500bc) and Jainism(c. 500-700bc) arise around similar time periods, essentially as breakaway sects out of Hinduism and both start defining Karma and other terms in different ways. I just don't like that he is using Hindu text to define the Buddhist terms, when they technically aren't a Buddhist text and you could make the same argument of Jainism using his logic. If we want to get real technical, there is the argument that the oldest Sanskrit texts on Hinduism are not even the same Hinduism that is preached in 1AD. The gods have different names and different stories. While I personally am of the party that states there are so many similarities that you can easily argue they ARE the same religion(just with variation that happens over time and cultures changing the text), it is an argument made by scholars of many different disciplines. Which does have some validity when the standard belief is that Hinduism can be dated to c. 3000bc, and others arguing they can be dated as far back as c. 6000-8000bc(that's a lot of time that allows for many culture variations to take place).
In regards to the Ajivakas in particular I just think it's worth mentioning that the Greeks and Roman's often criticized the Jewish people for being atheistic for believing in only 1 deity, and with all of these sects coming out of Hinduism, which has many interpretations today, but multiple state that the 3 main deities are aspects of the 1 deity that created the universe, it just seems likely that they simply held a different view on the god(s) that were commonly believed in. And as he stated, these were essentially caricatures of what was actually believed by the sect, it is quite likely they were not necessarily "atheistic" as we would view it today. Even Socrates was accused of atheism, but he himself claimed to believe in the gods of the city.
He is correct on Cynicism that it was a two way street. And I believe Alexander was already going to be interested in these sects due to their radical beliefs, as Alexander was a fan of Diogenes the cynic, and there is a fun parable of Alexander meeting Diogenes. If there's any truth to Alexander even wanting to meet with Diogenes, who had a VERY radical lifestyle compared to most of the western world at the time, I find it very likely, had Alexander heard of these sects in the area, he would definitely want to meet with them or at least send someone like Onesecritus who could hear what these Indian philosophers had to say. Not to mention his teacher was Aristotle and he had an interest in philosophy and knowledge in general. But back to the first part of my statement, there was already contact going on in Iran/Persia and Alexander had a love for Persian culture(to the extent that their are stories of his soldiers critiquing his Greekness and manliness, Persians were seen as effeminate in Greek eyes of the time). And with Cynicism already being present in Greece, if these sects in India did have Cynicism as well, then it was plausible that it was due to, or at least helped by, the near eastern influence on both nations.
For Derek, I don't know about the grass. But, I do know of the argument about the palm leaves when Jesus enters Jerusalem. From what I recall, the palm leaves wouldn't be harvested and thus wouldn't be used as fans, until the fall time. But in another of the gospels it states that Jesus entered around the Passover, which is in April. This is the basis of the argument that the 2 gospels are conflicting. I've heard the counterargument that they wouldn't have just thrown away the palm leaves and they would have been encased in wax or even that they would have still been usable until Passover. But there are numerous other arguments to be made about conflicting narratives throughout the gospels.
One last critique, I feel the title was deceptive. There was no proof of any kind in here that Christian Apologists prove anything about Jainism. I feel 40 minutes of this video was setting up general differences of ancient Jainism from other sects formed around the same time period. Then there was about 15-20 minutes worth of this man not really saying anything of substance to Dereks questions. But there was little to no discussion of Christian apologizing.
Brahmanism isnt the same as Hinduism (word coined by the British). All the modern philosophy of Hinduism comes from both Buddhism and Jainism.
Hinduism isnt even an unified religion, it’s an aglomaration of different local cults throughout India. In some regions Shiva is the highest god and in some regions the highest god is Vishnu. But at the time of Buddha the highest god was Brahma.
Sramana movements didnt broke out of “Hinduism” they rejected it and established their own separate religions.
Indian words have meanings which if u know enhance understanding. at 9.40 word Sutra for a holy book has a meaning. by itself Sutra is word for a cotton string. they explain it by saying an enlightened person has seen the light while an untrained person is stuck/lost in a dark cave. enlightened person has found the way out and he had tied this weak thread to a tree or a rock outside. he has brought it to u. now if u gently follow it u will reach outside. if u break it u will be lost again
Early MSS of Mark is fragmentary? That sounds to me that that gospel could have been Marcion's gospel and probably was heavily edited and redacted.
We have a SMALL handful of early more-or-less "complete" manuscripts of Mark, but the original ending may be lost (because although the short ending is older than the "long" ending, it might be abbreviated because of a lost page of an early manuscripts). Mark was not as popular as the other gospels, was transcribed less frequently, and editions would have been subject to more neglect.
In contrast, the other three canonical gospels each have between double and quadruple the early witnesses. The low number of early Mark texts means that any very early text variants were more prone to be lost, and it is harder to compare manuscript lineages to reconstruct the hypothetical autograph. What you see is what you get, and deletions and interpolations are more likely to be cryptic.
Hail almighty Jain!
🌟💚
Just Plants and Animals in they is environment, Could just be paying homage to Elephants
The bud SELF could be considered GOD the little self could be considered part of god. Depends on what you mean by the Self.
How does this prove Jainism as being true. A lot of speculation. Some shared values. How does this prove it’s true.
The title is ironic and poking fun at people who say undesigned coincidences prove the historicity of something.
@@mitch9066 good point. But I am pretty sure if anyone want to go back to the garden of eden. You would be preaching the philosophy that Jesus preached.
@@mitch9066 you know love GOD love thy neighbour as thy love thy self. Healing the JEW healing the gential healing a Samaritan. Preaching to an Ethiopian the golden rule type stuff.
@@ryanlerouche5122And your god hasn't any evidence whatsoever... so...
@@americaeaustraliaepius4338 there has been plenty of evidence. Based of the rational arguments. Give by Plato and Plotinus. Your empiricism claims all metaphysics to be incorrect. Even tho you used learning logic through numbers. From Plato to write the code for your there computers. 111111 111111 chapter 7 of the republic.
Jainism is too
5:30 22:55
thanks!
Does the AP stand for Advanced Placement or is it like HH Holmes where it stands for Human Hunter and maybe AP is Archeologist Philosopher.
(Obviously none of this is factually accurate, I just always wonder why people shorten their names down to initials and then play games to try to come up with as many weird combinations of words as I can)
Always found it weird how people label themselves with their initials. Maybe there were too many Joseph Wilsons around.
@@RickReasonnz LOL yes. Common name. I use my middle initials so nobody confuses me with the 8 million other Joe Wilsons. ;)
@@AnthroJoe try being born Michael (redacted) and you’ll understand why I changed my name.
OW, WOW, 🧘MOM,🏋️ "GYMNOSIS"🤸!
The ONLY truly prophetic people are..................................................the people's front of judea
No! The Judean's Peoples' Front!
SPLITTERS!!!!
Mahavir was the final of 24 great teachers of Jains.
Mahavir was 6th century B.C.
Bahubali was much bfore Mahavir.
Yes, that was my mistake. I "sort of" corrected it later in the video, but I had forgotten Bahubali was the son of the first Tirthankara. I had remember he was the child of another Jain figure, but I forgot which one.
What is the Buddhist and the other Asians version of the devil?
There is no one devil or Satan from what I know. Evil spirits, sure.
While sitting under the Bodhi tree, the Buddha conquered Mara. The Buddha's finger touched the ground and the Earth shook.
Shiva is the destroyer in Hinduism. He is an equal aspect of the Godhead along with Brahma and Vishnu.
I believe they did not have such a binary good vs evil. For example, Kali, god of destruction, is necessary to keep order and renew things so those things can turn into something newer and more useful to creation (I think)
For Buddhism, probably Mara. He is supposedly the god of the world and of illusions and of death and of rebirth, and he supposedly has a heavenly army and tried to stop the Buddha from achieving enlightenment, but didn't succeed.
I don't think nudism as sexist.
How could it be? We're all equal in our birthday suits :P
Naked monks in the woods? Adding this to my list of reasons to never visit India. Right under "Too hot with no air conditioning."
To each his own.
I love to see you argue the Bahai faith you would have no ammo
What would I argue? I have no issue with them.
Bahai faith believes in the same mythological characters as Christianity, whats special about it?
so im not only one that thinks appologist means applogizers for "God" and also appoloship. funny appolo means destruction.
hmmmm
You mean Jane?
What about Jane?
Yes
#FiveStars
Everyone worships the same God
They just dont know it yet
Boy are they in for a surprise
What god is that
@@Dev-jr5mfGoku
I've seen your comments about Ireland but I'd like to know more please.
Buddha was influenced by Jainism, Christianity was influenced by Buddhism...so there you go.
If you want to know true Spirituality, watch the first three Star Wars movies George Lucas made.
God is Real.
God is universal.
No religion is universal.
God is not religious.
Jesus was a Jedi.
These are the the days of Revelation, when men can be woman and women can be men. And people agree with this. Did the Jains or Christians believe this too?
Yes. This is Kaliyug, or as the greeks and romans believed, it's the age of iron, after the age of bronze and the age of heroes, it's the age of decadence ande gradual degradation. As Ovid wrote.
Where can I learn more about these ages?
Unrelated, but I find Inspiring Philosophy’s silence on the book of Daniel DEAFENING. I’ve repeatedly asked him to cover this very crucial issue (including Jubilees, as it destroys his evolutionary views), yet he ignores me (Mythvision, Gnostic Informant, Digital Hammurabi, Atheologica, are all brave enough to tackle this issue; unlike IP). Wonder why🤔
I'm curious, how is Jubilees related to his evolutionary view?
@FergieFerg622 and @matthewnitz8367, I can guess that maybe I.P. has some kind of nuanced reading of Gen 1 and Gen 2 that make them compatible with theistic evolution? Jubilees (a non-canonical source) like the Quran and modern fundamentalist Christian exegesis, all conflate the two narratives, rendering those kind of old-earth theistic-evolutionary arguments a bit irrelevant. Nonetheless, a proponent could simply dismiss Jubilees and the Quran as uninspired. No? Am I missing something?
A scripture from a book of Astrology doesn't disprove evolution.
Evolution doesn't disprove God
Everything is subjective
JAINISM
This reminds me of those videos people do with Jordan Peterson in the title. Like no one is interested in you, because why would they be, so they click-bait Jordan Peterson. I think that is what jainism is doing in this video, with Christianity. In my opinion.
I confess I do not understand this comment.
Peterson is a Jesuit Agent
So is everyone who platforms him
That guys Etymology Sucks , They didn't call themselves Indians. They have they're own names and LANGUAGES. Come on just say it. GUYS. MIXING OF PEOPLES BEINGFULL BLOODED WHATEVER IS FALSE .
HUH? This is about India. It is a geographic region. It is a neutral term to designate people from there. There were many small warring states in the indian subcontinent during early antiquity. By the time of Alexander the Great, pan-Indian unity was being established among the Buddhist/Jain Mauryans.
Sounds to me he lazy.
Shutcho
one sided information as usual. now go do the research on the other side of the coin. stop being so naive.
I am the person in this interview. What is the "other side of the coin" of which you speak? How can I answer your question?
Christian who didn't watch the video 😂
"Christian apologist prove" wtf. That's an oxymoron if there ever was one! C.S. Lewis would doubtlessly agree. Love the shows that demonstrate influences and synchronism. Gotta have the clickbait title I guess. Seeing how religions have evolved impowers my Christian experience. Those who are threatened by truth need to revaluate their faith... as do those who feel that they have a right to tell others what's they have to believe.
Christians have been telling others what to believe for 2000 years, sometimes violently.
Christianity is based on telling us what to believe. Whereas Jainism is based on behavior.
@@Paulman.K Christianity based upon anything other than a personal relationship with Christ crucified is bs in my opinion. Most people who identify as Christians have no idea what they're denomination believes. There are far too many variations of Christianity to make a claim it's all based upon the same thing. The oversimplification of your comment is disturbing. Broad pronouncements about what others believe is the first step to dehumanizing them.
I agree the title is clickbaity, but it relates to the conversation Derek and I had about the topic of undesigned coincidences, so I don't have a problem with it.
CS Lewis was clearly religious as all his books are derivatives of the final prophecies
Come on. "MYTHVISION’S MISGUIDED QUEST TO DEBUNK UNDESIGNED COINCIDENCES IS GETTING WEIRD" really gets at the issue here: you do not understand the argument you are trying to debunk
We were playing with the arguemnt. Erik's blog got weird, with the blurred out photos.
MythVIDIOT Podcast
If there are budist ideas got to Europe why not the other ŵay?
They go both ways. Alexander's influence on Asian art was HUUUUUUGE!
@@AnthroJoeMostly north and central Asian art was influenced by Greek art, south Indian and south-east Asian art remained relatively the same, as you can see today it has its own unique abstract artstyle, influenced by chola, pallava and vijayanagara art
Yest that is true that South Asia is less influenced by Greek style@@dannydohma6808 > Nonetheless, the two forms of art in the Buddhist context appeared simultaneously in the wake of imperial unifications of the late first millennium BCE, and Jain art is heavily influenced by Buddhist art. So it is hard to say which is older (south or central asian style) in the Shramana context, or which may have stimulated the other.