Why Doesn't Bart Believe in God?
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- čas přidán 20. 03. 2023
- Bart has written a new book on Revelation, titled "Armageddon - What the Bible Really Says about the End". In it, he examines the least-read and most-misunderstood book of the Bible. It will be out in late March, but you can pre-order here: bit.ly/armgddn. Pre-orders really help drive publicity, so if you're interested in the subject (and why wouldn't you be? It's The. End. Of. The. World!), get it now while it's hot!
Visit www.bartehrman.com/courses/ to shop from Bart Ehrman’s online courses and get a special discount by using code: MJPODCAST on all courses
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A person’s reasons for deconversion from Christianity to agnosticism or atheism are something that many Christians speculate wildly about, misunderstand, or simply refuse to believe, but those reasons can be varied and complex. In this episode, Bart talks to Megan about why he deconverted, how he found meaning after religion, and why he does what he does.
In this episode, Megan asks Bart some personal questions:
-What impact did learning more about the bible have on your religious convictions?
-What truly prompted you to leave Christianity, and how long had you been wrestling with that problem before you realized that you couldn’t solve it?
-Was there a specific moment that led you to finally walk away, or was it more the culmination of years of thought and reflection?
-Did you find any of the solutions satisfying, or were they all lacking?
-What do you mean when you say you’re an agnostic atheist?
-Some people believe that the real reason you write all of these popular books, speak in public, run your blog and so on, is because you’re on a mission to deconvert the faithful. In the book “God’s Problem” you make the point of saying that you have no interest in deconverting anyone - so why do you do this work?
As a former deeply committed fundamental Christian of the Pentecostal/Charismatic variety, my journey out of this format of Christianity has been prolonged and difficult. I used to be very dismissive of Bart Ehrman and thought he was pure evil and even demon possessed. But after about ten difficult but enlightening years of gradually being willing to consider and then confront some very uncomfortable and confronting questions, I have come to greatly appreciate Bart's honest but humble approach to issues related to the Bible and Christianity. I still consider myself spiritual, but my spirituality today is free from dogma and fear, and is perfectly compatible with the insights and revelations that Bart Ehrman brings to light.
Indeed the flippant way in which many believers pass off the journey of folks who left their theism behind reflects a poor understanding of what goes into such a trip. It is interesting you talked about it taking 'ten' years. That is approximately the time it took me to move from convinced Christian theist in my early 20s to someone who was comfortable admitting I no longer thought God existed in my 30s. My life didn't really change...at all. There were no outlandish sins I was chaffing to commit nor did it want to live a life of debauchery. I remained honest, as kind as I could be and avoided indulging in base desires and have been thus for over 40 years. I can't say I'm spiritual, but don't really understand the term. I am happy with my worldview.
Jesus Christ warned us in Matthew 24 several times, let no one deceive you! No one.
@@charleswilliams8248 Would that apply to our accepting what Jesus said? 'Let no one...including me....deceive you.'
@Charles Williams It is a pity that the Jesus depicted in the gospels does exactly that. Predicting the coming of the "kingdom of God" to Jews who only understood that term to mean a new "golden era" of Israel with a new king on David's throne and establishing a worldwide theocracy by defeating all of the enemies of God by real military might and that prophecy absolutely failing, is either deliberate deception or an honest but serious mistake that amounts to deception.
@@charleswilliams8248 This includes Jesus, doesn´t it? And who cries loudest: "Hold the robber.""? Another robber.
"At a University you teach knowledge, not what you believe." More teachers could use that reminder today.
Modern academia has flipped that notion on it's head.
Knowledge does not apply to University's alone, because it's just about Understanding of the SUBJECT, which starts as a Child.
7:58 thank you for the light into the Christian religion. No, I am not atheist, but Bart's insight is helpful in knowing more about God anyway.
Bart will believe a person when that person called himself *God*
Bartolo is a speculator without any Science FACT on Jesus Resurrection from the dead, when it's a common sense Global observation 24/7
I never realised that Dr Ehrman suffered the same painful deconversion and loss of community that many of us have. It's heartening to hear so thank you for sharing.
For as much as I don't believe in Christianity or religion as a whole, I really do think they have it right as a community building tool. That's something I really wish that the atheist/agnostic community could try to find some replacement for because like Bart, I feel uncomfortable in a church
I did find Bart’s reasons very sophisticated considering so many obvious ones that any real God would know could not be true. Genesis day one story where the claimed God created light but the Sun not created until day four! In story where myth story of Adam and Eve eating from a Tree of Good and Evil a God speaks up and said if they would eat from the Tree of Life they would become Gods like us. Multiple Gods? Claim windows of Heaven opened to allow rain from a massive lake in a Heaven. A real God would know better. Also humans created in our image not my image or created from dirt is wrong. Adam did not name all animals but people gave them different names. Ark story myth and made out of gopher wood and pitch would collapse! Bible “God” kills whole towns including animals to make room for Jews is ethnic cleansing and immoral. Hundreds more could be listed!
@@12jswilsonThe agnostic/atheist DOES have a replacement for this "community structure" that is associated/affiliated with .."church". It's called...EVERYTHING ELSE! "Church" does not have a monopoly on .."getting together". Throw a freakin party!
I'm so sorry but your prayers were not answered put everyone does the same thing when the prayers aren't answered they think God's not listening were you ever truly saved please pray for that Faith they come back he's always listening
@@Dadohyeah
Reasoned from a christian point of view hell will be far more populated than heaven. Then who is more powerful: God or Satan?
And if you believe that in the end all will be forgiven who tried to live right and still enter heaven anyway, then what is the point of being christian?
Listening to this podcast makes me wish I was a student again. I would absolutely love to be in his classes.
There are people who devote their entire careers to the study of Greek Mythology, without for a moment thinking that Zeus is real. They just find it interesting.
Yes, but it’s different when you are taught it is true from the time you are born from society and your own family.
@@chrismathis4162 OK. I was explaining how people who don't believe in the Bible can be interested in the Bible.
Anyone not interested in the bible has their head in the sand since you simply can’t have a clue about 2000 years of European and other history otherwise - but sadly we live in shallow and distracted times
@@TempletonqThe difference is that Greek mythology is dead like many other religions, the difference is that christianity and the other abrhamic religions have a foothold today and directly affect and dictatr how people live their lives today.
@@Koshertits That's not my concern here. I'm saying it is possible to find an idea interesting without accepting it.
What a wonderful program!
My thanks to Bart, for his reasonable and informative presentation.
I also want to mention my gratitude for Megan's willingness to let Bart talk at length, without interruptions.
This is a skill that is sorely lacking in many interviewers.
Love Bart's easy-going sense of humor while navigating religious myth.
As well as his bold intellect. He followed the hard path his intellect ineluctably led him: right into deconversion.
Many cannot (or subconsciously will not allow themselves to) tread this path.
Thi# i# not a new problem. Read Ben Franklins autobiography,
@@skat1140 yeah no. It wasnt anything biblical dude it was the problem of evil.
@@skat1140I did and then grew further and outgrew my 20 years of atheism
*Muslims Will Free Jesus From The Cross*
*Will Christians….?*
*By time machine,* I will go back in time 2000 years ago, to Golgotta hill. *I see Jesus hanging on the cross,* naked and being tortured. He starts to bleed.
*What will I do?*
* *A. I am so sad* and then I will beg Pilate to *free Jesus* from the cross.
* *B. I am sad but also very happy* because my sin will be redeemed. So, *I'll just watch and let Jesus be tortured* to death with his blood shed, because *only through sadistic way and Judas' being possessed by the devil, I will live eternally in heaven.*
*Muslims will definitely choose A.* While surprisingly, Christians don't want to choose B. This means, *Jesus was sent NOT to atone for human sins on the cross.*
Strong *indications:* When Jesus was about to be arrested & crucified, *he was scared, hid,* told his disciples to buy swords, sad, prostrated and prayed to God.
So, what was the true mission of Jesus? *The mission of Jesus was the SAME as the mission of the previous Jewish prophets:* to *TEACH & ENFORCE GOD's Law/ TORAH Law,* that is, worship only God the Creator, do good, repent, and avoid sins (John 17:3, Matthew 5:17-19, 10:6, 15:24, Mark 9:43-47, Mark 10:17-21, John 5:29, etc). Why? Because throughout Jewish history in the Bible, *the Israelites always broke God's law/Torah law, such as* worshiping idols, kill, adultery, steal, BRIBERY, hypocrite CORRUPTED priests, etc. *But Jesus' mission was opposed by Jewish High Priests.* Then Jesus was slandered and finally sentenced to death. Keep in mind, *the MISSION of ALL God's prophets is to SAVE their people,.* HOW? By telling them to *do God's commandments, namely only worship God the Creator, do good, repent and avoid sins.* In carrying out their mission, *all the prophets experienced super hard challenges, such as* rejection, humiliation, torture, betrayal, defiance, attempted murders, even murders.
The true Jesus/Isa is in Islam. So, *look more into Islam from credible Islamic sources.*
You can never love someone freely if there’s a punishment for not loving them.
After 50+ years in Christianity, that’s the one thing I could never get past and it’s what led me out!😊
Yes it's the perfect description of a sadomasochistic relationship, being commanded to love for fear of punishment
You choose the behavior, you choose the consequence. You indicate to God you do not want Him and He grants that, and then you complain that this is somehow unfair. Unbelievable.
@@CCCBeaumont no its not that we don't want "him", just commenting on the absurdity of a relationship like that, I didn't indicate anything yo a non existent being, this "him" by the way, what makes it a "him", does it have genitals, if so ,what for ?if not how is it a "him" ,?
@@benohara284 He has revealed Himself in and with masculine pronouns, whether or not this offends us, or whether or not we find it irritating, or even irrational.
'I couldn't get my mind aound the doctrine of the atonement, that God required someone to be tortured to death so that he could forgive me. Why couldn't he just forgive me?'
Or; if he charged the debt to someone else, was it forgiven ....no ....the payment was just redirected to someone else. Which does not seem to be just.
I noticed that so many religions require a blood sacrifice of some kind. Whether it be someone's son or an animal.
That's likely because you are not aware of how serious our predicament is. Sin is far worse than you realize.
@@CCCBeaumont God created your sin so that he could hate you for it
@@aftereight7505 And yet He doesn’t, to His honor, praise, and glory.
my problem with the free will argument is that it only considers the side of the perpetrator never the side of the victim, the victim also has free will, meaning they don't want to suffer and this god apparently doesn't care because the perpetrator has a free will to commit harm
I was ordained into the Lutheran church and served churches for over 30 years. Also, I served as a chaplain in the military and in hospitals. I started questioning "the problem of suffering" while in seminary by my 4th year after reading Douglas John Hall's book, "God and Human Suffering." I took a class on The Book of Job in my senior year that really started the ball rolling on questioning the relationship of suffering in the universe and a presumed "Loving and Good God." I KNEW as I started my 1st year in the congregation as a minister that I was in real deep shit. I became a huge fan of the The Jesus Seminar with John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg and many others. They were my life line throughout my decades in the church. I tried to be honest and leave the church but could not find work that could support my family of 5. Needless to say, it was hell. I felt like I was living a lie and being paid for it!!! Guilt does not even come close to my feelings. I did my best to offer classes and preach historically empirical based sermons regarding the bible. I held on to an agnostic position until I was medically retired 5 years ago. I'm happy to say that Bart Ehrman was a regular read throughout my clergy years. I was even able to have a year long adult bible class using his DVD materials. It caused a lot of uneasiness. Facts and intellectual honesty seem to do that in the church!!! Thank you Dr. Ehrman for all the years of work you have given as a gift to thinkers and those who struggle with "normal" in church and society. Parenthetically, these days I have a personal "walk" with what I would label as a secular Buddhism. I was introduced to the writings and practice of Thích Nhất Hạnh about 20 years ago. His words became a personal well of sustenance of getting through (and passing by) the arid drought of today's world, the church and Christian theology. In short, we suffer because we are alive (and conscious). The daily practice is whether we can be aware enough of our basic "self" to respond to suffering with compassion in thought, word and deed. There is no need of a deity in this practice. Buddha and Jesus are human brothers in this challenge to be compassionate in a brutal existence. I can deal with that. Namaste.
You shouldn't have worried - in 2014, The Guardian published the results of a survey of Church of England (Anglican) clergy (what I think would be called Episcopalian in the States) and 2% were found to be outright atheist with one stating point blank that he thought "God" was almost certainly a human construct. Even amongst the recently ordained, only 91% were "sure" God existed. For those coming towards the end of their careers, often begun forty or more years previously, that figure fell to a still surprisingly high 79%, at least it sounded high to my way of thinking til I reminded myself these were actual priests. So with at least one in five of them by retirement harbouring at least serious doubts, it really does make one wonder....
Sounds like you have found something else to accommodate that peculiar need Man seems to have. You're fortunate since, albeit minus the dogma, perhaps you have found God after all...
*Muslims Will Free Jesus From The Cross*
*Will Christians….?*
*By time machine,* I will go back in time 2000 years ago, to Golgotta hill. *I see Jesus hanging on the cross,* naked and being tortured. He starts to bleed.
*What will I do?*
* *A. I am so sad* and then I will beg Pilate to *free Jesus* from the cross.
* *B. I am sad but also very happy* because my sin will be redeemed. So, *I'll just watch and let Jesus be tortured* to death with his blood shed, because *only through sadistic way and Judas' being possessed by the devil, I will live eternally in heaven.*
*Muslims will definitely choose A.* While surprisingly, Christians don't want to choose B. This means, *Jesus was sent NOT to atone for human sins on the cross.*
Strong *indications:* When Jesus was about to be arrested & crucified, *he was scared, hid,* told his disciples to buy swords, sad, prostrated and prayed to God.
So, what was the true mission of Jesus? *The mission of Jesus was the SAME as the mission of the previous Jewish prophets:* to *TEACH & ENFORCE GOD's Law/ TORAH Law,* that is, worship only God the Creator, do good, repent, and avoid sins (John 17:3, Matthew 5:17-19, 10:6, 15:24, Mark 9:43-47, Mark 10:17-21, John 5:29, etc). Why? Because throughout Jewish history in the Bible, *the Israelites always broke God's law/Torah law, such as* worshiping idols, kill, adultery, steal, BRIBERY, hypocrite CORRUPTED priests, etc. *But Jesus' mission was opposed by Jewish High Priests.* Then Jesus was slandered and finally sentenced to death. Keep in mind, *the MISSION of ALL God's prophets is to SAVE their people,.* HOW? By telling them to *do God's commandments, namely only worship God the Creator, do good, repent and avoid sins.* In carrying out their mission, *all the prophets experienced super hard challenges, such as* rejection, humiliation, torture, betrayal, defiance, attempted murders, even murders.
The true Jesus/Isa is in Islam. So, *look more into Islam from credible Islamic sources.*
“KNEW as I started my 1st year in the congregation as a minister that I was in real deep shit”
Ephesians 4:29
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Umm maybe that’s one example of “not doing anything different after conversion”? Or did you have a foul mouth as a “Christian”?
Couldn't find a different job so you acted like a preacher? Dude that's sick.
Sorry to hear that. You fell for the seductive lies of progressivism, imo, and are far worse off for it. The good news is, if you were ever a child of God you still are a child of God. Thankfully, you will find Him still accepting one who rejected Him.
What is irritatingly charming is that believers think, each of them has the magic words that will magically return us to the faith. So, on the one hand, you have to kind of admire the dedication to their theism. On the other hand, it means they profoundly cannot comprehend the journey out.
For decades after leaving Catholicism I kept a crucifix on my wall because it was a startling image of the most basic of truths: that life = suffering. Somehow being aware of that truth made my problems more bearable - what I was going through wasn’t exceptional. There’s a real comfort for me there.
There is no progress without struggle. I've struggled for pretty my whole life. Most of us have. Most of humanity has.
Life itself has.
The whole point of the Cross is that God Himself (itself, whatever) struggled for us and our sake.
Picture it less as "God needs a blood sacrifice to be happy!" and more as "God is a SWAT Team officer who got shot and died to save you." Which you should use as an example to emulate. Which....is a valid point, Catholic or not.
I understand your point.
We do and should honor those who die in public service.
So, yes, proper respect for SWAT officers.
But you realize this analogy is utterly anachronistic.
Also, the hypothetical officer is responding to a real, immediate threat in this life…
Not a threat after death suggested by a supernatural belief system.
I understand the appeal of meaning one may find in supernatural beliefs.
And, I understand how this framing may be meaningful to someone.
Please recognize how my response to it, is authentic too,
and grounded in understanding,
not just hyperbolic accusations and vain arguments.
I pity the people ,who either don`t want to use their imagination or don`t have desire to learn and rather stay enslaved by religious charlatanerie ; I keep the crucifix for the same reason you do, but I`ll tell you why.Buddist`s main teaching is that life is suffering and the salvation is the awakening,i.e.realising what is the root of suffering..I figured out for myself, that Christ`s example ,although appropriated and distorted by the churchly institutions ,is also a great metaphor about life; for me the Via Dolorosa is the concentrated in very imaginative form the whole human journey from birth to resurrection of full personhood and individual expression! Hence, I am free from the dogmatic weight o false belief yet free to enjoy the perennial wisdom of the story.
Come home to truth and faith. I urge you in the strongest possible terms, to be saved from this evil adulterous generation.
As I went through my deconversion, Bart's depth of knowledge, critical analysis, and skillful articulation of his own deconversion were immeasurably helpful to me.
You can check out Dan Barker too.
@origenjerome8031 Thanks. I'm somewhat familiar, having viewed some of his debates on CZcams, though I haven't read his books
Same, it was his book about the history of hell that made me finally let that concept go
👍
I wish the corresponding Matt Powell from Kent Hovind’s cult would adopt your attitude. The world would be a better place.
Well done.
hahahaah
Respect to him. The deconditioning from the religious fear instilled in us as developing kids makes it really difficult. It took me many years myself as well as going back and forth a couple of times even.
Yup, same here. It frustrates me to no end seeing it happen to children nowadays.
What a wonderful podcast.
I can't get enough.
It is very tough to leave the faith. I got married in a Catholic church 12 years ago. I love my wife, and we have two kids. About 5 years ago I started to have some serious doubts, that have now turned into a serious agnosticism.
I grew up in a protestant evangelical household, where it was church on Wednesday, and Sunday School/Church on Sunday. In the car is was Christian radio, and Adventures in Odyssey, and we had all the McGee and Me movies.
Both my grandmothers played the piano and organ for Sunday services. My grandmother even taught Sunday School and would often send me handwritten notes in college. If she was still alive, it would break her heart knowing where I am now.
It's been a process to come to terms with all this. Bart's books gave me a more academic perspective backed by a scientific-method type approach. Bart's point; that I've heard him make often, is that if you concede that some facts in the Bible are inaccurate or even not true, it all unravels.
More importantly, the certainty that people have that their religious belief is the one true belief (even in the face of contradictory evidence) was my personal tipping point.
May be there is a god, but god is evil or just doesn’t give a hoot what happens to us good or bad?
@@walterclaycooke
For me personally, that hypothetical is moot. It's a distraction from the biggest question that still remains...how should we treat claims of 100% certainty that aren't backed by evidence. We wouldn't dare do this in our personal life as an approach to problem solving, but evangelical apologetics just does some wild mental gymnastics. It goes against everything that the Enlightenment thinking provided society as a leap forward.
I was living my life for years, based on things that evangelical 'adults' told me was the 100% truth. Then once I asked the honest questions, I found out that their certainty wasn't reliable or based on any real evidence. It was a very painful realization. Either way, I remain agnostic as I simply don't know.
Scientism and academia can become their own cults and delusions. I would urge you to look into Orthodox Christianity. Fr. Seraphim Rose and Justin Marler really opened my eyes.
I was atheist for most of my life so I will spare you the spiels I hated back then.
There is more to this world than meets the eye. Our ancestors knew more than we give them credit for, a return to tradition would help begin to fill voids that are occupied by unhealthy vices.
Johnny, your grandmother wouldn't be heartbroken. She now knows the truth.
@@cheryellemley-mcroy6758 With the religiously devout, any skepticism whatsoever is often met with some-variation of 'we know the real truth.'
Thx, Bart! Just got the new book. At 70 yo I found myself in the same place you are after many years of critical thinking.
Ehrmans sarcastic but happy laugh has such a mocking sound to it....😂....it always makes me laugh...
Another extremely interesting discussion!
Suffering is problematic and not only on the planet Earth level, but also an individual level, which bothers me the most.
Christian Gnosticism can give the answers.
Even though I've heard Bart tell his deconversion story many times, I'm always fascinated to hear Bart tell it again, as a fellow apostate, it's sobering to hear that I'm not alone.
Me too
@Gary Allen Yeah, I know plenty of people never bought into the religion thing, and always saw through it from the beginning. Not me, I really believed it. Although, even back then when I was religious, something about it never sat quite right with me. Something always seemed off about it. I could never exactly put my finger on it, until I deconverted. Then I realized, of course, when you believe in a falsehood, it's not gonna make much sense to you!
No one, who is heading towards hell at the end of times, will notice whether or not he is in the company of others, even though he will be surrounded by billions all around him/her, because it won't be comforting to any minimal degree at all. Feeling comfortable because others share your view is pretty deceptive for everyone's life journey should be personal. The community life is only to help you get figure out your personal relationship with your 'destination'.
@@Merih98614 did u smoke some grass? did u smoke wat revelations author was smoking?
@@Merih98614
Your 'destination' is a hole in the ground or an urn on the wall. The JOURNEY is the point of life, not some wishful-thinking about a fantasy land that exists beyond life. Do you think electricity 'goes' somewhere when it's not flowing? Does fire go somewhere when it's not burning? Do chemical reactions go somewhere when they're not reacting? No. Your life and everyone else's is the result of the your brain being functional. When the biochemical and thus bioelectric processes in your body stop, your brain stops functioning. When that happens, there's no "You" anymore. All you have left are the molecules in your body that came from elsewhere (air you breathed, things you ate, drank, injected, etc) and will eventually be returned to the air, water and earth. There's no "You" left to experience anything. Without eyes, you can't see anything. Without skin and nerves, you can't touch anything or feel anything. Without a nose you can't smell anything. Without ears you can't hear anything. But most importantly of all, without a brain, there's no "You" to feel/ touch/ hear/ see anything. Without a visual cortex to process vision, you can't see anything even if you DO have eyes.
Your brain is what makes you "You." This has been shown time and again in all manner of studies related to brain injuries. A simple chemical imbalance in the brain can turn you from a loving family man into a remorseless murdered. A tiny cut to part of your brain and you can no longer recognise any faces you've known. A small nick elsewhere and you can no longer form understandable sentences. They make sense to you, but are utter gibberish to everyone else. A small slice in a different part of your brain and you're unable to say the name of objects you've been shown, even though you're still able to write their names with pen/ pencil. There are so very many different ways that damage to your brain can fundamentally change who you are as well as what you think and how you behave. If you had a soul, you wouldn't be able to change someone's personality and beliefs with a scalpel.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but everything we've learned about the universe, the world and about humans, tells us in no uncertain terms that there is no afterlife, because there is no part of you that survives your death. You can, of course, choose to believe otherwise, but to do so, you have to ignore a LOT of evidence and in the end, you're only fooling yourself. Worse than that, you're robbing yourself of the richness your life could have held, if you weren't treating it as a tutorial level.
Beautiful. Really moving and thoughtful
Anyone thinking we got all this on its own is NOT thoughtful.
The 1LofT states that energy can't be created or destroyed, it can't happen naturally. One aspect of the 2LofT shows that the universe is winding down, usable energy is becoming less usable. It is clear creation had to be done supernaturally at some point yet it is still denied because people are just too proud to accept that, among other things.
Well said Dr. Ehrman . Thank you for your learning , teaching , and caring . You rock ! 💥
I was never a Christian as an adult, but at age 18, I joined what many considered (and still do) a cult led by a Korean named Sun Myung Moon. My conversion experience was profound and I remained faithful for about a decade. Moon's theology is based on creative interpretations of the Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament and it has been fascinating learning what Christians believe and what the scriptures mean in a historical context. My transition into a secular world where I no longer believed was devastating. I filled the void with an unhealthy lifestyle. It wasn't until I returned to college and studied for an MA in anthropology that I began to see life as hopeful, rich, rewarding, and that as you say, since this is it, make the most out of this life in a positive way. Cultures studied by anthropologists tell us that we are wired for cooperation and to care about each other. Faith can be a supporting mechanism, but being good doesn't require believing in a personal God.
I have an undergraduate in social anthropology earned fifty years ago. As I reconstructed my religious and spiritual belief system, it offered me both a philosophical and methodological framework for better understanding the world. It remains so today. My career led me to work in over 40 countries. I, everywhere, was impressed with the almost universal yearning of humankind for god. I do not know if this human phenomenon is an ancient vestigial relic of evolution or an evolutionary adaptive mechanism. Regardless, it is undeniable. As for me, I am a committed agnostic and will never declare for atheism. As Bart points out, the truth of the assertion, "there is no God," is ultimately just one more unknowable "ism." All the best to a fellow anthropologist.
@@jvanncunningham Atheists could always admit there is a god. e.g. Fine, there could be a god. See? So we have a god that has not 'revealed' himself or herself in the obviously man-made legends and inane stories of some illiterate Middle Bronze Age Jews, then gentiles, again to the illiterate Pedophile Arab, again to the con artist who fled to Utah. Hinduism though not nearly as stupid or backwards, still is obvious mythology and legend. If you cull out that which is fairly clear to have been the work of men uninspired by any omnipotent all-knowing benevolent creator/guider, what does that leave? A non-specific Deism! "Nature's God". OK great, so we have a god who created the universe and laws but has just become an observer that does not intervene in the affairs of his creation, does not answer prayers if even hears them, left no moral dictates or commandments, no instruction or guidance as to how we are to go about having a 'personal relationship' with him or her, or how to pay tribute, possibly because he/she doesn't want to have a 'personal relationship' with us. The dead-beat father god, who impregnates the universe and then splits, leaving his creation to fend wholly for themselves? Maybe he is a serial dead-beat father-god. Goes around the universe spreading his 'seed' then abandoning them, too. Well if THAT is the sort of god anyone has been selling, then count us all in!
@@jvanncunninghamThere is only one God, and Muhammad is his prophet.
@@redx11x Yeah, sure. 😂😂😂
@@michasobiech2671 why not, the message of Muhammed is clear and simple.
He is Allah-the Uniquely One. Allah, aṣ-Ṣamad (the Eternal Refuge). He neither begets nor is born. Nor is there to Him any equivalent.
Bart says he's not interested in deconverting the religious but more in helping people. I can honestly say I believe he has helped me more than anyone ever really has, whether they were trying to or not. I do completely agree with the view that agnostics and atheists are two completely different things and have accepted both classifications as my own. Dr. Ehrman, please don't stop presenting your very thoughtful understanding of the truth, even if it's only the truth as you understand it - which is truly the only truth anyone can know.
Yes him and the MythVision podcast have truly helped me.
Agree !! 💕😭
YaH The Heavenly FATHER (Genesis 1) HIMSELF was Who they Crucified/Pierced for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF”
From the Ancient Semitic:
"Yad He Vav He" is what Moshe (Moses) wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3)
Ancient Semitic Direct Translation
Yad - "Behold The Hand"
He - "Behold the Breath"
Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
All of Jesus work are the result of Energy's Science Facts, including his resurrection from the dead.
@Rayagoldendro...It is evident that even though use Scripture, you need more light in your understanding. You claimed that God the Father was crucified and yet the Bible records God the Son talking to the Father while He ( The Son) was on the Cross. Sounds like you have accepted the Modalist view which was rejected as heresy in the 3rd century. Notice the following verses if you insist on denying the TRINITY. "Who raised Jesus from the dead?" Father ( I Thes 1:10) Son (John 2:19) Holy Spirit (I Pet 3:18) All Three distinct Persons possess the name "GOD" There are too many clear verses in Scripture for me to accept your faulty logic.
thank you both great interview!
Yeah, to Bart, the universe just created itself. 1LofT states that energy can't be created or destroyed, it can't happen naturally. One aspect of the 2LofT shows that the universe is winding down, usable energy is becoming less usable. Creation had to be done supernaturally at some point.
Somehow I still believe in a higher being. Like a guiding force who influences my actions but doesn't interfere.
Thank you for all you do, Bart. I had the exact same experience with the Creed; For a long time I went to church but stayed silent during the creed unless I thought someone was watching me (or if I was helping the celebrants). And I do miss being active in a faith community; but I can't engage they way they want to. If I try to inject philosophy, biology, or healthy thought patterns into discussions on healing, suffering, or sadness, it just......well, it's just hard.
As we moved from fundamentalist Baptist to more liberal, my wife and I ended up in a Presbyterian church. I have always found it ironic that the liberal denominations recite creeds. When we joined, I told the pastor I did not believe the creed. He said many of the members did not. I’m now atheist, but do like the church. There’s just no truth in it.
@@hjeffwallace my friend, I feel the exact same way. Folks who have left the church based on study, reflection, and reason, have a unique perspective on the beauty and community they had to be honest with. Which, I'd argue, is a truly heartfelt way to deal with people from a place of honesty.
The harder its...the better the satisfaction
*_"For a long time I went to church but stayed silent during the creed unless I thought someone was watching me"_*
I was about 14 or 15 when I stopped chanting it at Roman Catholic mass, even when my father was glaring at me out of the corner of his eye and chanting it artefically loud.
I'd stopped saying it when no one was watching a few years earlier.
{:o:O:}
Consider looking into Islam. It is the only way of life that can satisfy your heart, mind and soul. Put aside any preconceived notions or biases and examined the faith in totally. Start by reading a translation of the Koran (I recommend Clear Qur'an). It challenges mankind to try and find contradictions and inconsistencies (in the fields of science, history, embryology, astronomy and so on) in it. It calls mankind to the worship and obedience of the One true God (Allah).
The "problem" of evil is not actuality a problem in Islam. This life is a test. We were created to worship Allah only and to shun worshiping false deities, money and our desires. Allah says (67:2 of the Qur'an) what could be translated as:
[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving.
Qur'an 2:214:
Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while such [trial] has not yet come to you as came to those who passed on before you? They were touched by poverty and hardship and were shaken until [even their] messenger and those who believed with him said, "When is the help of Allāh?" Unquestionably, the help of Allāh is near.
Qur'an 29:2
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?
Qur'an 98:5-8
And they were not commanded except to worship Allāh, [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakāh (the poor due). And that is the correct religion.
Get Quran App: gtaf.org/apps/quran
#GreentechApps
This was the best episode so far. You should do more of this kind of personal stuff.
Really appreciate this video.
6:34, "the one that got me was in Mark chapter 2, when Jesus says that David entered the temple to eat the showbread when Abiathar was high priest". Bart concluded that this was a contradiction, so let's examine it closely. The Greek text reads: "πῶς εἰσῆλθεν εἰς τὸν οἶκον τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐπὶ Ἀβιαθὰρ ἀρχιερέως" (in the time of Abiathar the high priest - ESV). It's worth noting that this construction is very similar to Luke 4:27, where it says, "καὶ πολλοὶ λεπροὶ ἦσαν ἐν τῷ Ἰσραὴλ, ἐπὶ Ἐλισαίου τοῦ προφήτου" (in the time of the prophet Elisha - ESV). The meaning here is clear (also consider Acts 11:28); the speaker is referring to a specific event that occurred during the lifetime of a person who is unmistakably identified by their ministry, even if they were not currently serving in that capacity. This is similar to saying today, "In the movie Home Alone 2, the main character interacts in a scene with President Donald Trump." It's not the office that matters, but the person who can be immediately identified by an epithet. When the duration of the office is the focus, a different construction is used, as seen in Luke 3:2, "ἐπὶ ἀρχιερέως Ἅννα καὶ Καϊάφα" (during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas - ESV). This is far from being a contradiction.
Even if we interpret "ἐπὶ" to mean "before," as in 1 Timothy 6:13, "ἐπὶ Ποντίου Πειλάτου" (before Pontius Pilate - ESV), this interpretation is perfectly acceptable because Abiathar was there when David took the bread. Also, upon comparing both narratives, we can see that they are not precisely identical, as Jesus is emphasizing the principle of preserving life over adherence to ceremonial law. This is such a minor and insignificant "discrepancy" that it should not be considered a discovery that shakes one's faith. In all honesty, I can only conclude that you may not have had faith, my friend.
My partner works at a children’s hospital and there is a morgue there because kids die each and every day. That is a very sobering thing, but it speaks to Dr Erhman’s problem of suffering and I hate that this is the case. Even with our advancements in medicine, we just can’t save children…
But one of the most disgusting things ever said to me, by a Christian, is that those kids DESERVED it because they were sinners. So if I grant that this guy’s god exists and that his god did this, then that bid is NOT worthy of worship. Especially if that man was his best representation.
Someone actually said that? Jesus, what an awful thing to say.
@@Arven8 Clearly someone who’s never had to bury a child I guess. But yeah, they did. I’m convinced that God takes on the characteristics of the belieber so that’s a person I wouldn’t want in my life. And luckily, it was a stranger so they’re not!
@@thelostone6981 Wow. I can't think of a less empathic, less compassionate, more cruel statement to make, especially about something so painful.
That is evidence of religion's evil, religion's poison
I would ask them what sin did these kids POSSIBLY did not deserve death.
Many things contributed to my deconstruction, the first was there realization that the god character of the OT didn't match with the one in the NT. It wasn't until years later though that I discovered that the Marcionites had the same thought.
Also the whole idea that there reason there's suffering is that god allows free will... this tells me that god is concerned more for the allowance of Joe the Killers free will to murder Suzie, than he cares for Suzie's right to stay alive. Imagine walking past a violent crime and thinking to yourself "well I could stop this from happening, but I wouldn't want to remove the free will of the criminal", how utterly monstrous!
Or consider that Jesus, if a God, would have known all ways to prevent disease. Look up Jesus and Disciples did not have to wash hands before meals. Wouldn't a God know about microorganisms and the importance of cleanliness around food. But Jesus turns it into a Religious Jewish not understanding problem. What about the Bubonic Plague in Europe that killed 1/3rd of the population. Bubonic Plague is controlled by modern sanitation techniques and pest control. Was that to much for Jesus to explain to the people of Europe?
Well... not if you want a happy ending 😆 to the Bible ✝️ anyway
Jbandersnatch..
God is Sovereign..there is limited free will and even that little bit, is restricted by God.
You may want to understand that the God in the Old Testament is Yahweh. He still exists today and He was existing during the time of the New Testament, in fact if Yahweh didn't exist then Jesus wouldn't of been raised from the dead. Long story short, Jesus is not Yahweh, Jesus is Yahweh's Son.
As far as pain and suffering goes, Free will is not God's explanation as to why there is pain and suffering in the world nor any other human philosophical explanation. Perhaps our expectations that our lives should be always pleasant and comfortable is the problem. Perhaps letting go of the illusion of a utopia might do us some good. There has never been any documented time on earth where there has been such a state. In fact it was a made up concept by an author. Pain and suffering are a fact of life on Earth and always will be . It spares no one and nothing. The quicker we get on board with this idea and stop trying to chase a fantasy, the better things will get.
@@lbamusic At least you admit free will is limited ⛓. Progress.
I'm a theology student for 5 years now from SA at Stellenbosch University. Our theology is in a liberal perspective.
I was once a fundamentalist Christian but sadly not anymore, however, I haven't yet walked away from the Faith and I wish I won't. I have interacted with the work of Bart and as an upcoming theological scholar I have the responsibility of being truthful to the biblical text, therefore, I couldn't dismiss the reality attested in scripture.
In my early years of Christianity I had inspired to be a Christian minister, however, I don't think I want to be one anymore. I can't think of it having myself spreading something that all the evidence at my disposal prove it otherwise.
Hearing Bart as 22 year old comforts me because I kinder see myself becoming like him one day, being hated by Christians - they have began already. Deep down my heart, I really hope that I would become more like them and have a Faith like of a Child.
Again, hearing that Bart has a Christian wife fascinates me because I someone I like is a deep committed soul - and now I wonder, how do you guys co-exist with diverse religious convictions. What perspective would you transmit to your children, yours or your wife's (Christian dogmatism). The pastors in Church always advice the sisters to never have any intimate relations with non-Christian guys or with those who are not "serous with God".
"I can't think of it having myself spreading something that all the evidence at my disposal prove it otherwise."
Oh stop flattering your empty self. You're just some weak spineless being trying to puff yourself up. God has ALL the evidence and you and Bart have NONE. You two can't even make it past creation AND what followed. Yes, you're that BAD!
The 1LofT states that energy can't be created or destroyed, it can't happen naturally. One aspect of the 2LofT shows that the universe is winding down, usable energy is becoming less usable. It is clear creation had to be done supernaturally at some point yet it is still denied because people are just too proud to accept that, among other things.
I hope one day Dr. Ehrman will learn and grow even more and come back to a more informed faith than when he was young and a fundamentalist. It seems like most of his problems with his former faith is because his former faith was based on sola scriptura and he didn't have the sacred teachings and sacred traditions of thousands of years to fill in the gaps.
This is something I have been struggling with for ten years, I wish I'd come across Bart many years ago. Listening to him has brought me more peace regarding belief than I have known in my lifetime. Thank you Bart, more than you know.
Yeah, he's helped me sort a lot of Biblical things out, too.
We’re all we are, all we have, and on our own. Wishful thinking won’t change that, but love in action can bring joy.
“Rejoice, rejoice, we have no choice but to carry on!” ~ CSN
I understand…Hang in there! It took me years to acknowledgment that ‘people write books’
😂 Some breakthrough! Anyway, yeah, it’s difficult to be honest with ourselves I know.
For me, the more you think about what life would actually have been like in preliterate 0-100 AD, the easier it is to see the Bible in context. A book (well, collection of books), written in Koiné Greek, 40-80 years after the fact, by people who weren't there, about other people who spoke Aramaic, which is then copied/recopied/emended, canonized _a thousand years_ later, translated into Early Modern English. How _possibly_ could this haphazard agglomeration be seen as "the literal, inerrant word of God"?
@@skat1140 Yes. And, we have far older baked clay tablets preserving sales receipts for Babylonian sheep but the Good Shepherd leaves his flock without a similar reliable document directly from himself. Jesus rises from the dead, visits with a few people and leaves with nothing written down for future generations (or it is lost ).
Always a pleasure to hear Dr. Ehrman speak.
…and laugh. His laugh is so warm and contagious
I love him.
this was so enjoyable that I subscribed.
Impactful and appreciated.
The atonement is a huge thing. Considering that Jesus calls us to forgive each other as many times as possible and without condition, why couldn't he forgive us the same way. It's weird that an omni-benevolent god would have to sacrifice his own son to satiate his wrath...
Huge problem with it, imo. It shows who the character of god is, in their view anyway. I have no problem believing he would be a problem to Rome though (also resurrection-- look at all the other people allegedly resurrected including Mohammed-- was that true too??)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the distinction you make between atheism and agnosticism - it made a lot of sense to me!
FANTASTIC episode.
The Solution to humanities' Good Health, Peace and shared.Prosperity is Caring, Sharing & Cooperation for the Good of AllPeople!
22:00 thank you my friend, well put, and most of all extremely helpful.
I always learn something from Dr. Ehrman. I go back and forth calling myself an atheist and an agnostic, often dependent on my audience. Now I feel much better about calling myself either.
The last couple of years, I've called myself an agnostic-atheist. Meaning I don't believe it's possible to know if some sort of God exists, but I do not believe in the god of the bible.
Yeah. Due to my finite nature and understanding I can't be 100.0000% sure that there is no god. From that point of view I logically have to call myself an agnostic. However, from where I sit it feels like there's a 99.99% chance that the god of the Bible doesn't exist. The thing that gets me is not the existence of suffering per se, but the quality and amount of suffering, and who suffers. A deeply involved question...
@@mikeharrison1868 Yes. I prefer to call it “The Problem of Gratuitous Suffering.” Especially suffering caused by natural events like tsunamis, earthquakes, floods, etc.
I consider myself an agnostic atheist because anything that most define as super natural(ghosts, gods, demons, etc) haven't been proven through repeatable and verified means. I can't be 100% sure those things don't exist, for all I know some god sneezed us into existence then left for another universe. But there is no proof for it so there is no reason to believe that.
@@melbied6215 Yes, suffering caused by tsunamis, earthquakes, floods is hard to explain. But what I find worse is the extreme cruelty that some humans are capable of. Yeah, a bit of selfishness here and there is to be expected. God could allow people enough free will to be shitty to each other. But how could a good god allow the extreme depravity and cruelty that we sometimes see - especially that which is inflicted by adults on innocent children.
Wow! I’ve organically come to the same place as Dr. Ehrman. His naming of humility in Agnosticism is so spot on.
❤ so encouraging
Thank you !!! I've been a fan for years, and an Atheist for 40+ years, and this post answered so many question I had about you, your deconversion, and why you do "the work". So very interesting to hear it all directly from you and your larger perspectives on the topic of deconversion and why you do what you do. I especially liked the point made about Agnostic V. Atheist. Great point and caught me by surprise. Thank you for all that you do! Your books and your work have been an immense help in my own understanding of the church and its development, and the creation of the bible itself.
Agnosticism is for people who wear blinders and atheism is for people who are blind, deaf and dumb!!! Look around you!!! What do your five senses tell you ? If you can come up with a better explanation than what you find in the Bible, let's hear it!!!!😇
My goodness, I enjoy every one of your videos Bart, especially those with Megan. You two compliment each other very well.
Just a quick comment from a Baha'i perspective...
I like the analogy of comparing life to a sort of spiritual incubator, through which our actions and experiences help develop our spiritual being, similar to our physical being requiring a period of development before birth. The Baha'i writings seem to indicate suffering, and personal sacrifice through devotion as an important part of spiritual growth.
I am certainly not trying to change your opinion, I admire your honesty so much and look forward to hearing more of what you have to share.
Love the Baha’is
17:19 I believe in Freewill in Heaven as well as no suffering. The difference is the body and the suffering that come with it stay behind and don't make the trip. The soul has no problem with freewill and no suffering.
Suffering exists because intelligence exists.
By the way, Megan does an amazing job as host and conversation partner, and her knowledge and preparation add so much to the podcast.
It helps that she is absolutely frikin gorgeous as well
She needs to listen more. Her first follow-up was oblivious to what Bart had just said.
Who is she? Is she part of Team-Bart? Or is she a random person?
@neal cassady hater lol
@@CSHorn She has a Virgin Mary face .. I can't stop staring at it.
I had one question. If god created everything and god knows all then god knew his creation was screwed up. He is the author of imperfection. So why didn’t he fix his design? That question got me chastised in church.
I’m sorry that got u chastised. I got the answer so long ago I’m amazed ppl still ask it!
Which church? You dont even know basic things of christianity. God never made "imperfections"At the end of the creation he said " everything was perfect"
@@cristianpopescu78Allegedly….
@@christopherhamilton3621 All knowlege of humans race is just a kind of " allegedly" nothing more...The Idea God is a bad guy is just stupid ,nothing works that way in life.Hate destroy anything.
But lets assume God is not perfect/ bad guy.What is a Demon ? ? A badass?
🙏 Fabulous
BlesSings & GratiTude
😻
I love your work
I also left an excellent church community. Such wonderful people there.
He is an amazing agnostic atheist! I am so trilled to find him.
I considered swallowing a live slug in order to become a _trilled_ atheist! 😜
It was before I decided to oppose animal cruelty but I did decide it would be better in butter 🧈 and garlic🧄 with a glass of wine 🍷, a baguette 🥖 and some cheese 🧀 I didn't have any of those things nearby
🖖
17:30 Wow, it is possible to have free-will and no suffering.
PS. Completely agree that Aheism is a belief. I was an Agnostic theit.. Fundamentally a background in Zen Buddhism made me question everything I thought,.so I was absolutely agnostic in that our brains cannot understand the universe in any objective way,.and I thought that maybe there was a God, but accepted I didn't know.
I'm a deconverted Catholic, and my wife is still a practicing Catholic, and I've wondered how we can both support each other in our individual journeys. I wonder how Bart and his wife handled his deconversion.
@@MikeJJJ the NT resurrection is referring to resurrection in THIS LIFE. It's spiritual. There was no bodily resurrection. The gospels were written as spiritual allegory then corrupted by Rome by literalizing them. This is the deception and strong delusion we were warned would come. The truth is hidden within the bible like a pearl of great value. Most never find it. Bart found all the discrepancies and corruptions then just wrote the whole thing off instead of rightly dividing the word of truth from lies inserted by the scribes. Jer 8.8. there are more than one warning in the bible that it's not innerant and we should find the truth by establishing the word by 2 or 3 Witnesses Line up on line precept upon precept. Here a little there a little. Most refuse to believe the truth is still hidden in the bible especially after figuring out they've been deceived their whole life believing a lie. They just throw the baby out with the water. It's unfortunate because the truth is quite simple. Repent, live the moral code, love others as yourself. Period. All religions are man made and never instituteed by God.. just by men as a way to control, oppress, and steal wealth from the people. The simple truth will set people free from the bondage of My Sanai and traditions of men.
Don't let your kids ever be alone with a priest
As long as people are decent and respectful of others, differences on religion shouldn’t matter.
Seth Andrews, former evangelical and now atheist activist, has a believing wife. He’s talked about their relationship sometimes, pity I can’t point to a video specifically. I take it back, recently he mentioned a video of his titled “letter to a Christian spouse” inspired by a person who had just deconverted and had talked to him about his problems with his still believing wife. May be interesting to check it out.
Jstance our struggle is with religiosity hypocrisy literalist Bible interpretation etc etc not with faith hope and love as shown by Jesus. Do not debate critique the churches flaws but simply have a loving gracious heart towards all men including your wife. Leave it to God/Life we are all on a journey including your good wife. I have been much helped by Such Christians as Richard Rohr Brian McLaren and Brad Jerzak etc. Such a different outlook on the church Bible and Christian walk etc. SHALOM brother and continue. It's in our dark nights of the soul that God touches us with His peace. "Be still and know that I AM God (in us)😇
@@crede9427 Don't be silly.
Your work is appreciated
I admire the way Bart Ehrman is always respectful of religious belief even though he no longer subscribes to the idea. It must be so tempting for him to dismiss it all as superstitious nonsense.
You and Bart are wonderful folk. Peace
I grew up as a muslim, but I became agnostic recently. I feel more kinship with Bart than others, I can relate to the things he says.
But I think I couldn't say I'm "agnostic atheist" or "agnostic theist", because I think both are equally possible judging by the arguments I've heard from both atheists and a deist-ish muslim sect (Asharis/Maturidis, they used to be mainstream in the muslim world before the 1990's, Ahmed Deedat was a Maturidi for example) which is sort of being persecuted by the Salafis (mainly proselytized by Saudi Arabia) over charges of disbelief for not taking everything literally and for using logic and philosophy. There are some cornerstone beliefs that Salafis hold with their Athari theology that is devastating for the faith of individual muslims, since it smuggled in a lot of contradictory beliefs that the average muslim didn't believe before.
What made a good point for atheism is "the great silence" i.e. why the story never seems to continue after the prophets and at least one of the prophecies doesn't happen just to show everyone like a reminder that the rest will happen, and the second one is unfalsifiability when we make an excuse for every scenario, but we are very sceptical about opposing views.
The deist position has a good argument in that if we break down the "self" to its essence (and they call that a soul), we're likely to believe that the essence of ourselves is an energy that stays inside of us, leading the aggregation of matter to the body, and that the energy leaves us when we decompose. And that since energy can't be destroyed, it just finds somewhere else to be, and that all energy comes from one source, and all life comes from an "all-father" singularity, and that all matter was made from the energy, and recycled into new forms.
I don't like that atheists are so sceptical that they think a unicorn is the height of impossibility. It's just a horse with a horn on the head. Other ungulates do have horns, and why would it be so far-fetched to think that a subspecies of horse had that mutation to grow a single horn once upon a time.
And on the religious side, I don't like the way people can't see test their own religion with the same tests they judge other religions, "the blinding" I call it. It's like a team sport, but the religions claim monopoly on reality, and if the religion is really in league with reality, it shouldn't need cheerleading.
So I don't find that I fit into one nor the other. I just go about my life and figure I'll see what happens when I get there. It's hard to convince people one way or the other, so I don't bother with that either, everyone sort of has to walk their path alone, but might find each other at the end of it.
Freethinker is a better option.🤣
Your ignorance about Islam lead you to become atheist
@@bharathdeva9407 ... or at the very least: thinker.
Yes, if religions are "reality" why the need to team sport reality, just live it. Liked that.
I appreciated your post.
Are you familiar with ‘Apostate Aladdin” ?
He is an agnostic of Muslim background. He has some videos I think you would really like.
One of my favorite authors is a fellow named Tahir Shah, have you read him?
He has published some travel books, quirky stuff, his background is Islamic, and his father was an author too.
Anyway, he seems to love life and exploration of cultures and experiences.
Again, thanks for your post! Cheers!
"I don't belong here anymore." Wow. Thank you Bart for sharing again. I also have found myself investing more in my family and friends... that is community for me.
Amen
My family became increasingly more toxic when I deconverted.
I ended up at the local Unitarian Universalist Church.
Humorously, the openly atheist segment of the church is the largest. I'm even an active participant in their Atheist/Humanist group meetings.
The tradition still has members use the word god but their understanding of the word is open and flexible. Personal interpretations of the word god is open and flexible. In my case I still have anxiety over the word and cringe over the use of the word. I participate in choir now and the reverend and the music director give us allowances if the word is used.
We recently performed during service the song *_"I Ain't Afraid"_* by Holly Near and I got a big kick out of it
Megan asks really good questions, great interviewer!. I feel for Bart, it's a hard road he went through really emotional hard times, I'm glad he's doing better now. I was a Christian too, but it sounds like he went through a really rough road and is the conversion in kind of knew he had to do it, where as I was glad to be free of the yoke of a god that I didn't want.
Great 👍
When I was in my early 20s I watched Barts great courses series - I didn’t know it then but I’ve now traced back my first “cracks in my faith” to the series. It’s was 10+ years before I fully deconverted. During that time I’d often ponder what I had learn and try to make it fit but it never did.
James white completely destroyed Bart Ehrman in a live fire debate!
That will be the worse ever thing you did, deconverting from Jesus!
V
Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
@@colinmurphy439 The problem I’m having is this. I have always been a God-fearing man and a believer in Jesus BUT not all of the scriptures. I have always been confused with certain verses, both in the old and New Testament’s. But I know there is something missing in my soul ( fulfillment ). So I have plunged headlong into the study of the Bible to try to reach enlightenment and get closer to God but the more I have studied it appears that I have gotten further away from him .
@@philb5 If you are sincere wanting to be saved, just call upon the name of the Lord.
@@colinmurphy439 Thank you for your response but I have been sincere for 45 years and I have knocked, seek and asked with no response that I am aware of. I guess I will just continue on the path. Thanks
@@philb5 keep going - many of us outgrow atheism when we are ready. So many of my friends have done so. I did ten years ago after 20 years in atheism
It was so nice to hear Bart talk personally about the emotional costs of leaving his Christian faith, and what a painful struggle it was. I have "God's Problem" on my shelf and plan to read it soon. Thank you both for another great episode.
God doesn't have any problems!!!😇
@@andrewmays3988 No evidence that the power responsible for the universe looks like the latest iteration of hominid. Humanizing everything is a cognitive bias and more intellectual dishonesty. You're dogmatic in your claims.
@@andrewmays3988 I believe it has, I believe..
@@andrewmays3988 Precisely, because it doesn’t exist.😁
@@andrewmays3988 I have read "God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question -- Why We Suffer". It appears that you have not read this book. Personally I see no evidence of any gods in the world. There are over 4,000 religions and hundreds of brands of Christianity, and I do not believe in any God in those 4000 religions. Why would any compassionate god fail to take action to help end this terrible suffering?
Interesting how no catholic (ever) left their faith because they realized that the Bible “was not the infallible Word of God”. Like many good people who left evangelical fundamentalism, what Dr. Ehrman left was a heresy, he still hasn’t found the Truth, ever. And I sincerely hope that he will find it one day.
you wanna say vatican's whore teology is the truth?
at 23:06 a notion of "militant agnostic"... reminds me of a bumper sticker:
Militant Agnostic: I don't know and neither do you
The most accurate, knowledgable and modest of biblical scholars
He’s more of a popular writer than a serious biblical scholar though
I don't at all see the humility or modesty. He stands against most of those who trained him, with supposed comprehension that surpasses theirs, while not being nearly their equal scholastically, or spiritually.
An excellent video! So many interesting topics. One that rang a particular chord was Bart’s comments on the struggle involved in leaving religion. It is not a lazy, self indulgent choice. In fact, the de-conversion choice was much more difficult than my glide into Christianity from childhood.
Very sincere thanks professor
A thorough and thoughtful explanation. I think that people are only able to shape their faith around however it is they approach the question itself. To the extent thay you are bound by literal interpretations of details you will encounter difficulty with seeming contradictions etc. However, it is also possible to have little or no interest in literal or even implied details in biblical accounts and rather derive your ideas and convictions from the implications in scripture that have developed into traditons of belief and doctrine. The problem of suffering is the most difficult one - but more so to the extent that you have to work it out as a problem to be solved. I am more inclined to wonder if it is even possible to constrruct any reality worth having without the risk that free will introduces. Love itself cannot exist except as something chosen. 'Automatic' love is a contradiction in terms. This explanation still leaves things like 'natural' evil (i.e. with no apparent moral cause) unresolved. I also don't think any notion of reward or even afterlife is necessary for belief in God. The sheer giftedness of existence itself may be enough - we really don't know 'why there is something instead of nothing,' and this is sort of a constant argument either for all contigency requiring a beginning in something (or someone) non-contingent, or an admission of the only alternative, Bertrand Russell's 'brute fact of existence, which being equivament ot saying 'everything always was' falls into the classic trap of infinite regression. You can argue this position, but I find it not only less satisfying, but ultimately less logically plausible. In other words, there are other ways and other reasons to belive in God (and especially to contemplate God's appearing as our forgiving victim) that have nothiong to do with proof or resolving any of the promissory/transactional traps presented by the biblical corpus.
I find it fascinating that Bart can laugh about all the vitriol that he knows is coming! Not taking harsh criticism to heart, is a life’s accomplishment in itself! As a person who can never completely turn off their thoughts (a.k.a: meditation hasn’t worked so far!), I find it comforting to think their is an afterlife so I can see my deceased family members again. My “heaven” includes pets! On an intellectual level, I don’t really think there is. I comfort myself with the truth that I don’t know, so it is still possible that I will. I understand how one can be both an atheist and an agnostic. Great explanation on reconciling these two concepts from Bart.
I haven't been a believer since I was a child. I never wanted to lead a decent life because I would be punished if I didn't; I wanted to be a good person because I have a heart and a conscience. I have a code of honor because I have an innate sense of pride, and dignity is essential to me. I want to be a hero. Moreover, I looked around and saw the pain suffered by "sinners" and their victims and I wanted no part of that. This life is what you get. If you understand that, you want it to be the best it can be. That's it. I'm leaving behind decent, moral, principled children (none a believer). That is the legacy of my life. I've done good, hurt few. What else is there? What else need there be?
Punishment is necessary for civilization to flourish.
Otherwise, countries would be ruled by barbarians, savages, and despots.
So much good stuff here. My response to the argument that "God doesn't want robots, so he gives us free will" is "And why is that better than everyone being happy?"
There is a theory in quantum mechanics called super determination that at its root states everything is predetermined starting from the big bang so there is no such thing as free will per the theory.
This is a veritable litany of saving the appearances. Good on you, Bart, for arriving at the inevitable conclusion of an honest, rational mind.
Inevitable? Maybe for a while until one inevitably outgrows atheism when one is ready
Buddy, the world is not so simple, hahaha
Thank you Megan and Bart, this podcast is so needed, especially in today's world. Bart, your journey out of conservative Christianity and into a new understanding is why I believe you're one of the most important teachers of our time.
Today's talk gave me an opportunity to not only understand you better, but to understand myself better. This deeper look is filling in some holes that have been bothering me in a book I'm writing on the Seven Storms Uprooting Humanity. Thank you again, Cindy
The bible is full of inconsistencies and bs 👎🏻👎🏻
Lol 🤣
A guy saw people starving on TV, blamed God (who provides the world with more than ample food in fact we THROW AWAY about as much food as we consume in USA) and you think he’s a hero? Seriously 😱?
Each year, 119 billion pounds of food is wasted in the United States. That equates to 130 billion meals and more than $408 billion in food thrown away each year. Shockingly, nearly 40% of all food in America is wasted.
YaH The Heavenly FATHER (Genesis 1) HIMSELF was Who they Crucified/Pierced for our sins and “HERE IS THE PROOF”
From the Ancient Semitic:
"Yad He Vav He" is what Moshe (Moses) wrote, when Moses asked YaH His Name (Exodus 3)
Ancient Semitic Direct Translation
Yad - "Behold The Hand"
He - "Behold the Breath"
Vav - "Behold The NAIL"
@@Praise___YaHLots of word salad and no substance in your argument. You ASSUME your source documents are factual ad correct when in reality, they are not. A belief in a metaphysical being running things in the physical world is simply a primitive thinkers explanation for life events they didn't understand due to a lack of scientific knowledge. If you ever clean the wax from your ears and open your mind, the truth will set you free
well,I resolved this dissonance between the content of faith and participating in liturgical ritual,by going to the roots of religion,which ,as I understand it, is the mechanism to bring us together as a community, a church (ecclesia) ,to join the individual with the communal experience into a human family.I have been singing in church choirs for decades,not because I believe in the doctrinal preaching,but ,because I love singing, am good at it,it makes me happy and I know my singing moves people`s hearts,which is my service.
Wonderful how thinking critically can open one's mind to gain wisdom from knowledge.
Then show how critical you think. Did we get the universe on its own?
The 1LofT states that energy can't be created or destroyed, it can't happen naturally. One aspect of the 2LofT shows that the universe is winding down, usable energy is becoming less usable. It is clear creation had to be done supernaturally at some point yet it is still denied because people are just too proud to accept that, among other things.
My experience, which appears to be similar to Bart's, is that we don't get to choose what we believe. We can only admit it (to ourselves and/or others). For example, can you choose to believe you are NOT reading this right now? Or that an elephant is reading it over your shoulder? Like our weight, our belief is the outcome of our past experiences and understandings. Our beliefs can change due to new experiences, realizations and so on, (i.e., learning) but at any point in time, it is what it is. So why should anyone be judged on their beliefs (right or wrong), any more than on their height?
It is also worth noting that Truth doesn't care what we believe. Our belief (or not) in the Divine (whatever its nature) plays no role in its existence (or not).
My favorite saying about "Truth", comes from the paraphrasing of John 13-87, in Jesus Crist Superstar. Pilate says, "we both have Truths, are mine the same as yours?". Of course, the answer is no.
Some "beliefs" must be judged, good or bad, on the actual actions that those beliefs justify. "Holy" murder is one such action that comes to mine.
You’re hitting on the difference between subjective and objective truth. That’s a land mine!
Well said! If I had to have an elephant reading your comment over my shoulder, it would probably be Disney's Dumbo!! ;-)
@@bubbercakes528 "You’re hitting on the difference between subjective and objective truth."
What's an example of a 'subjective' truth?
Religion
I really appreciate hearing your story. For me, leaving the faith was very difficult and confusing. The part you said about being honest with yourself while at church was especially relatable to me.
Look up “THE CRUCIFIX FISH - WHAT THE CRUCIFIX FISH REVEALS”
Then show how honest you are with yourself. Explain how we can get all this all on its own.
The 1LofT states that energy can't be created or destroyed, it can't happen naturally. One aspect of the 2LofT shows that the universe is winding down, usable energy is becoming less usable. It is clear creation had to be done supernaturally yet it is still denied because people are just too proud to accept that, among other things.
it's sad that Christians who become atheists cannot remain in the Christian community. But that, in a way, is the point (with most if not all religions). Your personhood is held hostage; should you leave (deconvert), you lose a great part of what you considered of value: your rituals, your habits, your community, your friends, perhaps even your significant other and children. You risk losing a significant part of what, up to that moment, made you you.
@@skat1140 I had friends that didn't believe. I have a close friend that is not sure. Of course, they can't answer even how we got all this by natural means. The one atheistic friend I had was an ex-layer. He was very unfair in any logical and scientific examination of the evidence. It was clear he wasn't out for truth and after so much of it, it got old. My present friend who has doubts has no issue with my beliefs and he's never attempted to even really argue because he has nothing. I don't force my beliefs on him and I told him many times I'm praying for him. I'm a Christian and I'm fine with challenging even what churches believe, as a result, I'm looked down upon by churches because they believe whatever they want and don't like me telling them they are not correct. I know loneliness better than most atheists.
@@2fast2block Wow I didn't notice that anyone responded here!
You said "Then show how honest you are with yourself. Explain how we can get all this all on its own."
1. I am honest with myself when I say "I don't think there is a god." I'm honest with myself when I say "I don't think an all-loving, all-knowing, all powerful being would create a world like this." So those are the reasons I left Christianity. Or should I say I left the community because I was no longer convinced of the main claims of Christianity.
2. I can't explain how we "can get all this on it's own." Maybe you could get me to the most basic deism - the idea that some "being" started everything off, but it sure doesn't look like a being has been involved AT ALL since then. I'm more comfortable (ie, it feels more honest) saying "I don't know, but it doesn't seem like the guy in the bible."
I don't have an answer. I'm saying "I don't know, but I doubt there is a God." And you're saying "It has to be god because what else could it be?"
Are you out to seek truth, or are you out to seek possible answers? Those two things might have some crossover, but they are not the same.
Our journeys are somewhat the opposite. I was an antitheist at one point, but my studies of the Bible and the history of Christianity (which included several of your books and many lectures and debates!) led me to convert to Catholicism. Regardless of that, one must stand against fundamentalism, as it’s a dangerous force for evil that threatens separation of church and state and the individual person, who should be free to inquire and discover and make decisions for themselves, even if it offends the deeply held religious convictions of others.
I also outgrew atheism thank God
I read Armageddon and a couple other books. I definitely don't agree on everything you say. But mad respect for your extensive knowledge and thick skin.
growing up completely non religious, my grandparents used to do things for community that are fading if not already gone and it's too bad. There were a lot of wonderful organizations that are dwindling, like the Elks or Lions, that picked a charity & fundraised around it, but also were advocates and got in some partying too in their local halls!
If churches were to get involved in more than trying to get more converts, such as helping to rescue animals in need or cleaning up toxic waste in their surrounding neighborhoods, they might find their congregations increasing.
@@deewesthill1213 they do all of that
@@topologyrob Which churches do you mean by "they"?
@@deewesthill1213 the Uniting Church in Australia for one
@@topologyrob What does that church do? Most churches don't do such good community work. They just want to get more paying customers! 🙄😇
i’m the same age as Bart Ehrman, within a month, and it was the Nicene Creed that stopped me from going to church also, and it an Episcopalian church at that, a church of which I was fond and remain fond. One difference is that I was twelve years old at the time. I had wrestled with feeling like a liar reciting reciting the Nicene Creed for over a year, then ultimately decided I just couldn’t attend any more. There was nothing my mother could possibly do to persuade me otherwise, and I think she finally realized it and gave up. Other differences are that I felt no “void”, i never ceased to consider myself a Christian (because I was and remain convinced that that’s a matter of culture, not belief), and I never thought the problem of suffering had much bearing on the question.
The reason I never though the problem of suffering had much bearing on the question of God’s existence is that to ask why there is so much suffering if He does is to assume that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and absolutely benevolent, and I don’t know any mythology, including Christian mythology, that depicts any god or gods with these attributes. Even if one or more of them did, however, that would still be of no account because all three attributes are intrinsically self-contradictory: Nothing could be omnipotent, omniscient, or absolutely benevolent-not because physics rules it out, but because basic logic rules it out.
I forget where I first heard the idea, but I think it makes sense, that it is useful for a language to have a few texts that serve as touchstones that everyone who uses the language can reference for sayings and stories that most readers will know about. And for English, those happen to be the King James Bible, and the works of Shakespeare.
When a person claims to be a former Christian, and then they list all of the Activities they used to do as a Christian, then it is obvious why they are no longer believers.
No true Scotsman fallacy
There was a time when I liked to call myself an agnostic agnostic - a state of not knowing whether it is possible to know with certainty (about a great many things.) Now I can be happy with Bart’s agnostic atheist label.
Yeah, well I don't think you can know whether or not it is knowable if god is ultimately a determinable reality. I'm an AAAgnostic.
I prefer "non-theist."
agnostic agnostic really deep shit of ignorance..
When people like Bart are so honest about their journey out of faith, it is helping others on the same journey feel they are not alone. And demonstrates there is life after faith. Every journey out of faith is different, but in some ways also the same.
It's surprising that the thing that knocked Bart's faith off its pedestal was a simple clerical error. (A priest cited as the head priest in one Book is cited as an assistant in another Book, thus to Ehrman the Bible is no longer literal nor inerrant.) I suspect his personal turning point differs from most deconverters.
@@skat1140 With Bart, that was probably the straw that broke the camels back. Everyone has a different breaking point. And even a clerical error shows inerrancy to be a lie.
@@billirwin3558there’s a hell of a lot of Christianity beyond fundamentalist inerrancy ffs
Have you explored Unitarianism? Seems a great fit, deep discussions, even theological, without doctrine.
Thank you Dr. Bart Erhman and Mega.
Dr. Bart Erhman your books are not easy to find here in the Philippines but i manage to have five of your books.
With your mega brain i wish you use it to say about islam and quran.
If you spent your life in a christian culture, leaving it can be the hardest, lonliest experiernce one can go thro.
You should go on to perfection leaving behind the teaching about Jesus Christ, pbuh
It's lonely but worth it to rid your mind of the cognitive dissonance that Christianity causes in a thinking person.
@NOTAN EMOPROG
If someone believes in God, but he or she understands that the Bibles have been changed, have errors and contradictions and even false verses, then it's clear that the Bibles are Word of God.
But if there is God, then there must be another book, unchanged, well preserved and protected, which is Word of God because God wouldn't leave His creations without His Word, His instructions and His Laws.
If I had an honor to speak with this professor whose knowledge about the Bibles is deep and profound, I would humbly advise him to think of what I have said above.
@@HamidTursunov here's a question from an non academic ex-Christian..
You claim that if there is a god then there must also be a book... please justify the necessity of there being a book for a God to exist. A Deistic god could have created the universe and choose not to provide evidence, correct?
@JayBandersnatch when humans produce TVs, cars, radios, notebooks, vacuum cleaners, etc., they provide manuals, don't they
If Creator creates His creations, there must be some rules and laws according to which creations, human beings, should live, mustn't there?
If you have a child who doesn't know a thing about this world of ours, you give/tell your child certain rules and even laws according to which your child must live.
Almighty God is the Wisest, most Merciful and Just, and He is our Supreme Judge, so before judging us, He should give us laws and rules, explain to us what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong.
36:53 ..after talking about being an agnostic athiest for the duration of the talk - you thank God?!
To claim to know what we cannot know is unrealistic... well said
I read Bart's book, "Misquoting Jesus" a few years ago when I was struggling with my own faith as well - it was a major part of sealing the deal. There is a lot of loss on this path, but at the end of the day, if you have to be honest with yourself first and foremost - I appreciate the discussion on of this aspect of walking away from faith...
Quote Emanuel Kant: 'Faith starts where knowledge ends'.
As somebody who has never had to deal with this experience, it is very interesting to hear about it from this perspective. I have never been a believer and wasn’t raised that way, so it has always seemed very confusing to me why changing your mind on these things would be such a big deal. I still don’t quite get it, but I can understand that some people are raised to feel SO STRONGLY about these things.
I have encountered many Christians throughout my life, who have tried very hard to convince me to believe as they do, and what I always find most fascinating, is that they rarely seem to understand that I could never accept their worldview because the concerns they were raised to have are not the ones I was raised to have, and I still don’t see them as concerns, so I would never have their paradigm. Like, the whole concept of a soul literally still makes absolutely no sense to me, or why a person would even be concerned with it.
I was raised in east Europe so in an orthodox house. They made me say a prayer every day and go to church with the class, but I don’t remember them being very overly religious. I think my parents didn’t cared enough to understand what the religion meant or why if god is real. It seemed more like a cultural thing for them with a little fear of hell. But as I was growing up, the most problematic thing for me was that I saw this worshiping and going to church too humiliating for me. Felt like a dog groveling to my master every time I had to pray or go to church. They even tell you we are the sheep and god is the shepherd. That never sat well with me. Why? Why would we humiliate ourselves so much. I remember when we would go on holiday, siting in the backseat of the car, absolutely every time we passed a church I did a cross with my hands. My parents were so proud of me. Such a good dog I was.
Yes, I had a similar upbringing. It never occurred to me to that there was a Flood, God or resurrections, etc They were just folk stories. I wonder if folk didn't watch TV talk with friends and relatives, go to school. How could they be so insular? I doubt they believed so much as wanted to please family. I don't imagine they ever thought much about these things.
@@russellmiles2861 When your young you don’t question anything. I don’t think I even knew the story about the flood before I started having doubts. My first doubts were when we went past a church from a different sect of orthodox Christianity. Then I started with questions and found out there’s more than 1 religion. I went whaaaat? Ohhh well damn. Let’s find out more then shall we. Soon I found enough. I think even George Carlin helped me a little. Not sure as I have a very bad memory.
Faith is less about intellect than the choice to decide if rational materialism explains all of reality, or whether there is "something more."
I am sorry that the intellectual arguments against faith, God, soul, doctrine, denominations all take so outweigh for somany the positive aspects of faith: hope, comfort of ritual and holiday, c ommunity, common stories which bind societies and a common morality.
Without faiths, the numinous, the existence of the soul, the Holy, only Science and the Human is glorified and made the pinnacle of holiness.
Neitzsche described the consequences of killing God. Bart has killed God for himself, and is helping many others "free themselves" from irrationality, fear of hell, from the shackles of religion.
The freedom from dogmatic, rigid, and fundamentalist faiths which abuse power and bring fear of hell naturally create pain sinsd suffering, the freedom from the shackles of which is both understandable, and welcomed by those in chains.
But the freedom to "be yourself" is not the same freedom as found in Christ.
The freest "self" is still controlled by the evolutionary, societal, and ego-based forces which motivate us. Deep self-reflection and meditation may help us perceive the patterns which control us, but no matter what self-help, self-hypnosis, or affirmations you repeat thousands of times, you are still your "selfish," self.
Humanism says humans are glorious and moral beings, every aspect of which is to be celebrated, that humans have the wisdom to decide on humanity's future. Also, that it is every person's birthright to celebrate all aspects of themselves, to have the complete freedom to decide what is best for themselves, and decide their own standard of morality.
Inner city murder rates by gun violence, drug cartels, the Putins, and previous Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots of this world, the Harvey Weinsteins, and the bottomless pit of destructive pursuit of sexual pleasure all point against humanity's better angels are enough.
Jesus described the utterly depraved condition of the deepest parts of ourselves and far too many humanists address this, nor have a solution to combat them.
If the stories within Christianity and the Bible are not fully logical, the proof of Christ's very existence and reliability of his followers are questionable, then the death of faith is a natural consequence when materialism is the world-view.
Hostile atheists call the God of the Bible a hideous, genocidal, sadistic murderer. But, as Dostoyevsky posited, that viewpoint does not bring anything positive into the world.
Each person's viewpoint governs what they see. And they naturally assume they see the big picture.. But what no one can everything clearly, each of us see only a small part of all which exists.
For me, Einstein's statement captures it best: "There are only 2 ways to live: First, as if everything is a miracle, or as if nothing is.
No God, no ultimate meaning.
To live with no ultimate meaning may feel like freedom, but if really faced and accepted honestly, fully, and completely, as did Camus , Sartre, and Neitzsche is to live suspended over the terrible abyss of a cruel, uncaring, and ultimately meaningless reality.
If this is the truth I run from "because I lack the courage to accept the abyss by standing on, not clinging to, my faith, then I am in better overall health, with greater physiologic and psychological well-being, surrounded by my church family, friends, and all of the postitve benefits Christianity has brought to Western civilization.
I do not welcome God's death, nor the Post-Modern free-fall without bottom. Not for me, my children, all future generations or for the West.
China has no need for its peoples to have a faith other than humanism and patriotism, and the individualism Christianity brought to the Western Enlightenment, is an absolute threat to the Party's control. As the new world model, free from Transcendent beliefs, humanity should look forward to their social control and disregard for human rights as the new model for human progress.. human rights will now be defined by the State, ecause there are none except what some group decide applies to its members.
@@glenliesegang233 Is there any of the gods that people have invented over the past millennia that you could not believe in with faith? You have a problem with atheists, but no problem with the other religions that by their contrary beliefs to yours exclude the existence of your god. Or your ok that they use faith just as you and don’t mind that they indirectly proclaim that your god doesn’t exist, which is a step above atheist who just don’t believe your claims.