We of Little Faith: Why I Stopped Pretending to Believe (with Kate Cohen)
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- čas přidán 9. 10. 2023
- Today's guest Kate Cohen is a columnist for the Washington Post and author of the new book "We of Little Faith: Why I Stopped Pretending to Believe (and Maybe You Should Too)."
katecohen.net/books
I grew up mormon and I just didn’t take any of it seriously. I enjoyed the social opportunities. I just walked away at 15 because they didn’t like me questioning. Never looked back. Never considered it for my kids. It just seemed silly. After listening to the difficult emotional and practical struggles of people who believe and then lose their faith, I’m so glad I’ve never had to deal with all that trauma and self doubt. I never cared what others believed, their right, but recently the Christian Nationalist movement , trying to take away my rights, force their beliefs on me, I’m becoming hostile. It’s now become important to declare my atheist position.
Had a very similar experience to the one you described. Do you think there were any practical or emotional challenges that came up much later, after walking away?
@@davidmgilbreath not really. I briefly attended many other churches after that thinking maybe my kids might benefit, but that didn’t last, as they are fundamentally all the same in their directive to believe and don’t question. I’ve never bought into the concept of “faith”, believing without evidence. Although I never had any blowback from my mother over my choice I do know she experienced some emotional pain because of it. But you just can’t “make” sone one believe. The older I became, the less sense religion made.
@deidrekline2149 - For me, I was in my late teens. Now I am a very happy Former Mormon. What a burden was lifted!
I hated the subjugation of members of color - men could not hold the priesthood UNTIL the church made a big missionary push into Brazil. Suddenly, god spoke to the prophet and told him that men of African descent could NOW hold the priesthood. Whew! Just in time. What a coincidence.
I also hated how women were also subjugated. No priesthood for them or any place in the church's upper administration.
After a few years, I got up the nerve to tell my brother that I was an atheist when he grabbed my hands and told me he was, too! We were instantly closer from then.
@@MossyMozart I’m glad you mentioned all that, because those same issues bothered me too, reduced the churches credibility in my eyes. I remember there was a gay kid in my ward who was being fostered by a member. They thought if he would just dance with all the girls he would be “cured”, so they made us all participate. He was miserable being outted like that. I asked the big question in seminary and was sent to the
bishopbric alone and without warning to be confronted by three stern men in suits, whom I did not know, and confronted with “We hear you don’t believe in God”. I lied and ran out, never to return.
“It just seemed silly” YES! It seems so obviously silly to me and has since I was a teenager. Humanity needed to make sense of their environment, hence gods. Do we really need fairy tales anymore? I simply do not understand it. No deconstruction trauma, just leave the silliness behind. Walk away
I can’t describe the terror I felt as a child trying very hard to “believe” knowing that I would go to hell if I didn’t.
Peace that passes understanding 😏
That right there is The Very Root of the problem==Brainwashing our Childree and scaring them to death~!!! Good Thinking~!!
In any other context that would be child abuse & mental torture. Why is religion excused from the same accountability as any one else would be.
Aw, that's so sad!
I get an awful lot of flack from friends and acquaintances when I say I dont believe people get ready aggressive. And abusive.a parson abused me and said I Had to believe in Jesus.
I told him to think about all the people who had been murdered in the name of Jesus.
I like a magnet I got in Portland. “Bigfoot saw me but nobody believes him.”
there is pressure, there is condemnation, there is rejection, all from the loving believers
Like fying above the clouds, you can see that the storm is just a localized phenomena. Tend to your umbrella and you will be fine.
The Bible predicted the Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced, they were as He was nailed to the cross. (They could have hung Him) The Bible predicted that He would be hated by His own people, by and large the Jews did NOT accept Him as messiah. The Bible predicted the Messiah would suffer a criminal's death, He was crucified between two criminals. The Bible predicted the Messiah would come 483 years after the king made a decree to re-build Jerusalem, Jesus made His triumphant entry into Jerusalem claiming to be Messiah to the day 483 years after King Artexersis made a decree to re-build Jerusalem. The Bible said the Messiah would be buried in a rich man's tomb, Jesus was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimethea, a very rich man. The Bible said the Messiah would be called a Nazarene, Jesus grew up in Nazareth. The Bible said the Messiah would be given vinegar, the Roman soldiers gave Jesus vinegar on the cross. The Bible said the Jewish Messiah would be a light to the Gentiles, (non-Jews) The vast majority of followers of Jesus around the world are NON-Jews. The Bible said the Messiah would be called oout of Egypt. The parents of Jesus took Him as an infant to Egypt to escape Herod who wanted to kill all babies under two. They were called back to Israel from Egypt after Herod died. The Bible predicted that a close friend would betray the Messiah, Judas told the Roman soldiers where to find Jesus. The Bible predicted the Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah; Jesus was. The Bible said the Messiah would be from the lineage of King David; Jesus was. The Bible predicted the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem; Jesus was. The Bible said The Messiah would NOT have any broken bones; it was customary for crucified individuals to have their bones broken to hasten death, but when they came to Jesus, He was already dead. The Bible said the Messiah would have people gamble for His clothes; the soldiers at the crucifixion gambled for Jesus' cloak. The Bible said the Messiah would bring in a new covenant; Jesus did. His death on the cross, once for all did away with the need for the slaughtering of lambs at the Jewish temple. The Bible said the Messiah would suffer; Jesus was beaten, had his beard ripped out of His face, and was brutally nailed to the cross. The Bible said the Messiah would be a prophet; Jesus predicted the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. The Bible said the Messiah would come riding on a donkey; Jesus did. The Bible said the Messiah would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver; Judas Iscariot was given 30 pieces of silver for betraying Jesus. The Bible said the Messiah would be a willing sacrifice; Jesus willingly went to the cross, and even predicted His death in Jerusalem. The Bible said the Messiah would be proceeded by a messenger; Jesus was heralded by John the Baptist. The Bible said the Messiah would be descended from Abraham; Jesus was a descendant of Abraham. The Bible said the Messiah would be lifted up; Jesus was lifted up on the cross. The Bible said the Messiah would perform signs of healing; Jesus did. I could go on, but it is already so long you probably won't read it.
all people are challenged to love other people, especially in this day and age, is it wrong to aspire to do the right and noble thing but to fail? but without the truth of the Bible you have no vision for the truth and the hope for what it can bring. Christians are not perfect but they try to hold the truth of God's word in reverence, as an example of how to conduct themselves.
I was a Christian dude. I know the drill.
No there is no pressure from a Believer is pressure from a non-believer God loves each and every one of us and one day we will either be in heaven in his kingdom or hell it depends on if you continue to reject him it's in the Bible God does not want to see any of his children perish but this is a decision that people need to make
I got to a point where it was impossible to hide my facial expression and reaction when when a family member would talk about belief in actual angels on earth etc. Now, I see it as a necessity to speak out against magical thinking if we’re ever going to have a shot at solving real problems.
@kfaullkerstudio, you know what else is magical thinking? The idea of human rights they don’t exist objectively. In fact, believing in it is no less magical thinking than believing in angels.
@@whiskeredtuna They don't exist objectively. Human rights are something we grant each other and sometimes deny. Hopefully for good reasons.
@@whiskeredtunahuman rights are based on the fact that humans can harm others and the golden rule "dont do to others, what you dont want done to you" angels have no basis in reality.
@@whiskeredtunaHuman rights are an agreement of a democratic majority, formulated in law. We know where they come from and we know why we have them. Neither can be said for religious beliefs. Get educated!
People who are born without a sense of empathy and humanity try to fill that empty hole with ancient superstition
Definitely does not need to be passed on to the next generation. Let faith be a relic of history.
Happening in Europe and the UK. But always interesting when a new Pope appears and seeing those 10's of 1000's in the square, adoring him, bc he's a direct line to god.
@@sidstovell2177 i'm of partial Italian ancestry and catholicism and the vatican and it's silly little pope are such an embarrassment to me
Yes it happened a long time ago in parts of Europe. You have to be careful what you wish for though. People will create their own secular gods.
@@sidstovell2177it's happening to Christianity but not to Islam unfortunately. Speaking for the situation in France for example. I believe the main cause of the social fracture is the fact that one side is getting away from these bronze age books while the other community is getting even deeper into extreme faith.
most are
I think the phrase, "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual," is code for, "look, I don't want to get into this conversation, I'm just trying to get some coffee, and if you don't back off, you'll be wearing my triple-shot vanilla mocha."
I think for me it was the way of slowly coming to my own realization that religion is just so much bunk and hokum. I kinda needed the woo to get me over the hump completely.
Works for me.
Edit; that last was in response to the "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" post....
Sometimes I try to imagine the loving christian god sitting there and watching the cruelties of the holocaust. Then I get sick and I have to throw up.
Há, ha. Good one. 😅
She was just on the friendly atheist talking about her book. She's awesome.
I'm here for it again. Haha
People who speak up and speak out in favor of secularism, atheism and against religion are heroes for doing so regardless of their circumstances. Their courage is rare and should always be acknowledged and rewarded. Religion has had it's "fun" with it's never-ending terrorist campaign upon all of humanity since it's inception. It's well-past time we all move on from it.
🖖*snaps*
Yes! Well said. I agree 100%
Religion was created to pray on the mind of humans not for the good of humans. Coercive control nothing more.
Amen! Can I get a hallelujah?
Yea, more blood has been spilled in the name of gods than anything I can imagine.
There's nothing "holy" about the "holy lands"...
She was an absolute delight to listen to and I look forward to checking out her book! Thanks for having her as a guest!
I *did* create my own winter holiday: Redire ad solem (return of the sun), celebrated the day after the winter solstice. I chose this because I recognize the very strong connection between my mood and the amount of sunlight. And that is a very real thing, much more real than a sky daddy. I don’t worship the sun, but I acknowledge its importance in my life, and I celebrate my hemisphere’s tilt back in its direction.
I just call it Solstice Day.
Very interesting and original😊
As a kid I was forced to attend church and catechism. I want to thank Catholicism for lighting my path to atheism!
Catholicism is not an accurate representation of new testament Christianity
@@blakereeves3530 I think you're missing the point I was trying to make.
@@mje1625 , what is your point
@@blakereeves3530 Never mind, Blake. Nice talking with you.
@@mje1625 why do you exist?
It was becoming a pastor and feeling an immense responsibility for what I taught others that made me finally have that honest conversation with myself and brought me to the point of admitting to myself that I no longer believed. Excellent video and great topic!
Me thinks that that would be called, integrity. Two thunbs up, my friend.
(Poor grammar intended)
I have heard people complain about how impersonal and formulaic church ceremonies can be, especially at funerals. The advantage of secular ceremonies is, that you can make them entirely about the persons involved. No deity or their son will take center stage.
My son’s funeral service was incredibly sad, just thinking about it makes me tear up even after nine years, but it was also very beautiful because of the way his two best friends spoke about him during the service. It was 100% about him.
Similar with my daughter’s wedding; the ceremony was relaxed and personal.
I have been an atheist for all if my 63 years and I never felt like there was a god-shaped hole in my existence. Not for one minute.
When I started doubting Christianity, I was about 8 years old in Sunday Bible School at my church and we were having a group prayer. For the first time during a prayer in my life I looked up and opened my eyes, looked at the people around me.
I realized the majority of them, like me, didn't really believe this nonsense. What they wanted was to believe, so very desperately they wanted to believe, they wanted it to be true, but you could see on the faces of those children and those teachers, the truth. They didn't really believe it either. They just wanted to believe it very very badly.
Pretty much from that moment on I've been an atheist I guess. It sure feels like that's the moment I lost any hope of believing. I simply did not want to believe something that isn't true that badly. I was not emotionally attached to this fiction like those around me were.
I was in my mid 30s, and there were about 200 people at a church service, and the pastor asked us all to bow our heads and close our eyes, then asked those that were new that had felt the holy spirit speak to them to come to Christ to raise their hands. Usually I just played along, but this time I took a peek around. Not one hand was raised, yet the pastor said "so many new believers - praise god!" That just made me wonder in what other ways I was being deceived all these years. (I finally left the faith about 10 years later)
At a church school we might get a slap if we opened our eyes during prayers. Very Christian I thought. Never believed it anyway.
Thanks for sharing your awakening. My critical questioning began around 10 or 11 years old. I isolated from family for a while. The cult of Jesus was suffocating. It is interesting how bronze age and medieval thinking is held sacred. Perhaps those of us who resists the indoctrinations are actually "The Chosen".
Revelations! I suspect that this moment was the final straw. @@leob3447
There is no abuse like Christian misuse.@@tomellis487
I reacted the same way around having a child. The buck stops here! No brainwashing and BS. I taught him TO THINK, to ask questions. I have been as honest and transparent as I could be about everything with my son. He is a grateful 20-something now. He is no fool. He is a kind, smart and self-aware young man.
Good Job!
Is he aware as to the purpose of his or any other humans life...
why does he exist?
@@blakereeves3530who says there needs to be a purpose in life?
@@brendaberry6648 the existence of life demands purpose.
@@blakereeves3530 maybe to you
It is not until Super Catholic (Opus Dei etc.), Crazy Evangelicals, Strange Mormons and JWs, pesky Baptists and so on started to get aggressive that I decided to make a decision. However, I never felt any pressure from Jewish "evangelists" or "harangers", nor from any other religion. It's mainly the christianISTs above that caused the research that brought about the decision to leave it all.
Rather earlier than declaring, I read Helen Ellerbe's book "The Dark Side of Christian History", and I read other historical and metaphysical analyses.
And so later than many Gen-Xers and Millennials, it became clear. It was hooey through and through. Thanks to Matt Dillahunty, Aron Ra, Seth Andrews, and many others.
And it would not have been if it weren't for the crazy religionists who made life hard for me and for a lot of people around me, all in the name of Jesus and his associates. Ugh.
Yeah, same. I've never had a Jewish person or a Muslim (or even a Catholic for that matter; although recently at a town festival I saw a stall asking people to join some Catholic order - I never saw that before), but OMG the factions of Christianity are absolutely harassing. Knocking on your door, praying for you when you never asked. If I was ever on the fence (I wasn't), they really shoved me over it when they just upped the nasty in the 2000's.
Opus Dei is Catholic? I always wondered about that weird building by that name. Hm, noted.
I don't _ever_ remember believing in a god, though I was raised Christian. (I didn't know a single other person who _wasn't_ a Christian - as far as I knew, at least - all the time I grew up, even through college, I think.) But I wasn't open about it, because I figured that it just wasn't anyone else's business. And it seemed silly to me, but perfectly harmless.
I didn't even talk to my parents about it. Frankly, that didn't even occur to me. When I ask my Mom why we had to go to church, she just said "because that's what decent people do." I don't remember my parents ever talking about God or Jesus, so why would I even bring it up? And it seemed obvious to me, even as a kid, that they didn't know any more about it than I did.
(I remember asking my mother if the Easter Bunny was real - because I _do_ remember believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. She just said, "What do you think?" So I guess I just figured those kinds of questions were up to me? Maybe she didn't mean for me to apply that to "God," too? But I did.)
However, once religion started to get so political here in America, I realized how harmful faith-based thinking really was. I mean, when I was a kid, that was before the Republican Party started their "Southern strategy" of deliberately wooing white racists. So when I was a kid, religion was just religion, not politics.
Indeed, it wasn't until the George W. Bush administration that I finally realized I needed to stand up _as an atheist._ These days, I even have a "Friendly Neighborhood Atheist" bumper-sticker on my pickup. :)
Grew up w/o any formal religious practice in my family, but they were allegedly Lutheran.
When offered to attend church qith friends and neighbors, i always accepted and went. Mom looked at me screwy.
I attended:
"Christian" with the fundamentalists down the street.
Baptist with the kids i met in the neighborhood.
Catholic with the next door neighbors.
Attended CCD classes after being shipped off to my dad.
Four Square Pentecostal with my eventual foster family.
Always had doubts about the "truth."
Became agnostic then atheist.
Did not raise my son in any religion, but always talked to him about going ro a church if he ever wanted to.
During covid lock downs, he found christianity with a friend from school. He began reading the Bible on his own and I always engaged him with what he read, and continued to offer to take him to church. He declined.
Then as he read many horrible things in the Bible, he had a crisis. Too many contradictions.
We put him in touch with someone who was a professor of theology, and Jewish.
After getting his questions answered, he put down the Bible, shook off the crisis and wept. He's now free of it and identifies as an atheist.
If you really look into organized religion...
The hipocracy you encounter will open your eyes.
As one who was raised and educated in the U.K., by that bunch of skirt-wearing virgins known as the Jesuits, I figured out at the age of nine that all religion was bunk. This came about because although they could demonstrate in a logical step-by-step manner how they arrived at a particular conclusion to an academic problem, be it scientific, mathematical or otherwise, when it came to matters of a spiritual nature, we needed faith! When I continually asked why this was so, not only was I treated as a leper, but every Monday morning, for not attending Sunday mass, I received six lashes on each hand from a flexible green rubber strap, these were administered with great relish by a perverted individual who used to give cigarettes to one pupil for giving him hand-relief after classes. Fortunately for me, their 'give me the child, and I will give you the man' philosophy backfired. I am now in my eighties, a compus mentis, fit and healthy atheist who delights in demolishing theistic arguments whenever I encounter them. Thank you Seth, you are an inspiration.
👍👋
Your time is no doubt short for you are mortal.... created by God for God... repent and look to Jesus for eternal life .
@@blakereeves3530 When you speak of repentance, all I have to repent for is the fact that I could not convince more people that they are wasting their lives believing that the supernatural really exists. Having been Jesuit raised I often wondered how they could provide answers regarding all subjects academic, but when it came to religion they said I must have faith! I was nine when I realized, to my great relief, that the realm of the supernatural did not in fact exist. No more going to bed at night and having to say a special prayer that would ensure I did not die in my sleep, [If I did say it and died anyway, they would say I hadn't said it wouldn't they?] Now, aged 81 I have not died in my sleep and have never been visited by angels, demons, devils, gods, or goddesses. If I am to believe you and your ilk, gentle Jesus meek and mild is, for the mere act of unbelief, going to stand by, with folded arms and a grin on his face, and watch as I am tortured forever and ever. But, repentant mass murderers Jeffrey Dahmer, David Berkowitz, Aileen Wuornos, who ruined more lives than I care to remember, because they said sorry, will be sitting in heaven sipping bubbly and eating grapes. And you wish me to believe this shit? There is a piece of mistletoe hanging from the back of my jacket...
@@billleyland128 , how would they be " wasting" their lives....as opposed to what.... You mean do what is right in their own eyes uninhibited by silly right and wrong norms...
I'm sorry that you were raised in a fear based work based nonbiblical view of reality, but your own experience will not erase the reality of morality, reason, accountability, sin, forgiveness etc
Place your hope in Christ, he is our only hope.
@@billleyland128you have yet to die in your sleep or in an accident or from a heart attack or whatever....but you will soon face your maker whether tomorrow or at 91 or 101.... point is , it is appointed to man once to die and after that the judgement, turn to the risen King , the Christ sent as a propitiation for your sin, our sin.
I also came from a background like Kate's but I'm in my 60s. My mother and grandmother were Holocaust survivors so I knew of this atrocity at an age when most kids didn't imagine such things. I was 7 when I realized I didn't believe in God. In a way I never actually "believed" actively - my parents told me there was a God and I accepted that as being true just as I accepted everything else they told me in the way that small children do. I never experienced "feeling" God as some people say they do. No one answered me when I prayed.
I was bothered about something they told me about God: God was all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere (invisible but could appear as a burning bush or stuff like that). Why did God allow the Holocaust to occur? If I were all-powerful, I would never allow such a thing because that would be evil. Was God evil?
In the foyer of the temple my family attended was a marble wall with the 10 Commandments chiseled into it. Why was the first commandment - "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Why even say this if there is only one God?
Possibility #2 was that maybe there were other gods too. What were they? The only other gods I could find anything on in the library were the Greek gods. I liked them better because they had goddesses, especially Athena - she was right up my alley. I tried praying to Athena but she was just as unresponsive as Yahweh.
This left me with the final conclusion - God didn't exist. I didn't know there was such a thing as atheists. I thought I was the only person in the world who didn't believe. I knew I was supposed to believe. I begged God to show me some evidence he existed - a burning bush, a voice from the sky, anything but there was nothing.
I was nine when I "came out" to my parents. I am disgusted by lies and could not pretend any longer. Furthermore, I harbored then, and still do, the suspicion that many people who claim to believe don't actually believe, the topic of Kate's book. My family escaped people trying to murder them because they wouldn't say Jesus was born of a virgin etc, so I figured many people were too scared to say they didn't believe. Other people who claimed to believe behaved really badly and I didn't understand how they could be so dishonest, cruel and greedy if they actually believed God was in the sky taking notes on them.
It was not talking snakes that made me an atheist - I was willing to accept a talking snake. What I could not accept was the tree in the Garden of Eden story. Why would God put a tree in the garden and then tell the people not to eat it? But even stranger was the nature of the tree: the knowledge of good and evil. I thought the whole point, the necessary prerequisite to being a good person, to living a moral life, was knowing what was good and what was evil. I could not get past Genesis without being utterly disgusted by God's behavior.
Morality made me an atheist. I wrote a book of that title because I'm sick and tired of people claiming you need religion to be moral. In fact, the more religious you are, the more likely you are to be just the opposite based on what I've seen in the world these 67 years.
I don't usually make it through long comments, but I ate this one up! All the things you described about thoughts that had occurred to you about god, the bible, religious people, etc., were things I recognize from my own thoughts, going way back (I'm 60 now). I didn't grow up with the reality of the holocaust staring me in the face quite so directly (roman catholic upbringing), but I was aware of it and horrified by it, and as a gay man, I would not be any safer than you or your relatives had I lived in not-see jurmeny (avoiding censorship!). Thanks for sharing your story!
I actually said much of what you said today to a friend of mine. Many of the people I've met who are constantly in the Bible and going to church are the absolute worst. Not good people. I personally believe that many (not all) know they are awful people and trying to be better, but can't change their true nature. The topics that we were discussing, I sounded more empathetic, sympathetic, and compassionate than so-called Christians. I even laughingly said (I watch a ton of true crime) that when I hear the narrator say someone grew up in a devout or religious household I always respond, uh-oh, I'm about to see the worst!
You are so welcome. @@tkat6442
So well written. You were so strong at an early age. It brought back memories of all the questions I had at 9, but silly answers were given to my questions. Our home life was fueled not only by fear I felt at church as an inherited sinner, but also by cruel parents. The supposed essence of love and peace that Christianity was presented at church (along with being an inherited sinner) was not practiced in our home. I was thrilled when my parents died.
Yes. This I agree thoroughly.
My change was slow. I left evangelicalism for the Episcopal Church in an attempt to salvage my faith without the evangelical bullcrap. However, about age 40, during the Nicen Creed, I realized I actually did not believe this. I picked up my jacket and hat, and quietly left the building. I stopped going to church 20 years after my first passing doubts while I was in christian college.
Is faith worth salvaging?
@@uncleanunicorn4571 Well, no, but that's usually a realization that takes some time to come to, when you're raised surrounded by dogmatic assertions.
Similar story a slower stepping back and looking at the religious system without the God glasses on that I had been wearing for 25 years ....the mainstream Christian churches penticostals in particular have completely lost there way the fake prophets the mansions the false faith healers meetings ...the cartoon language that is suppose to be a secret tounge that contacts the creator ......I'm embarrassed that I was so gullible and just went along with the crew I grew up with ...mind you most of them have been laughing at the leaders as well and have left ...real good news 😅
Was an Episcopalian too I thought their the loving Christian’s nope the things I heard working in the office was something
I was raised in the UCC and my scout troop was sponsored by an Episcopalian church, and despite my non-belief I hold a fondness for those churches. From time to time I wonder if I could return to that, mainly for the music and community.
I’d say rather that teaching her kids what to think, she’s simply teaching them to think.
Teach your kids how to think, not what to think. Difficult (we tried it, with mixed success), but worthwhile.
I also left the Mormon Church. After being baptized at 22, I married a wonderful Mormon man but stopped believing. After years of pretense, living an inauthentic life, dealing with daily migraine headaches, depression, and even stuttering; when I finally admitted I believed in none of it, I no longer was desperately ill.
Living in inauthenticity is toxic. Telling my active Mormon family I’m an atheist/agnostic was even more difficult than leaving the Mormon church.
I know I'm a stranger... but I'm proud of you. 👍
Good for your conscience. Making god up is irreverent. Challenge God to show up. Or just stop any kind of thinking about god. See what happens.
so at this point in your life, what DO you believe in?
@@dawood121derful ... science?
I'm going through the same situation right now. After 37 years living as a Mormon both me and my wife decided to leave the faith. Hardest thing I've ever done. Haven't told my still believing family that I no longer believe in God and religion as a whole. This tortures me every day just thinking about it, but I don't really know how to tell them.
I didn't question until I hit my rebellious phase. I always had doubt, but it wasn't until I was no longer living at home (I left home at 17, lol) that I was even honest with myself about my belief (or lack thereof).
I would thoroughly recommend attending a church service in a language that you cannot comprehend. For me, this was a Catholic church service in Slovak. When you don't understand the language, you're not being drawn into the theatre, you're observing the proceedings objectively, without baggage.
And when you do, you find yourself looking at your surroundings with its mystical imagery, the iconography, the magic words being read from a magic book, by a appointed man wearing special clothes.
It's like watching a Harry Potter film in VR - if you think that a talking hat is wild - I was watching people that quite *literally* believed that the cracker they were biting down on was actual. human. flesh. And the wine they were drinking was actual. human. blood.
As a kid I was always creeped out by this. I never took it seriously considering my grandmother stressed thinking for myself. Same with my mother. Both have passed away along with my biological father. I have my mother's ashes so I still have her in a way.
this happened to me at a very young age, because I remember vividly when my catholic church switched from Latin to French and I was thinking WTF are they talking about now? Nothing made any more sense than before and I was wondering why! And my questions were answered with "don't ask and listen".
A brilliant approach to actually see what's in play...
Sometimes I think that my road to atheism started when I was an altar boy (no I was not abused) and we switched from Latin to the vernacular. I would sometimes find myself slipping back into the Latin. I realized that I had only the vaguest idea what the Latin prayers meant. They were just sounds coming out of my mouth, but they were supposed to mean something to this God I thought I was praying to.
@@zebulon138
The first church service I ever attended - when I was old enough to remember it, at least - was a Catholic mass, back when it was all in Latin. My mother took us there when she decided we should start attending church. And since Dad's family was Catholic, I suppose she thought she should give that a chance.
It was _so_ weird. My brother and sister were too young to remember it, but I sure do. I'd never seen anything so... alien in my life. It was all in Latin, so none of us could understand what was going on. I'm sure it seemed normal to everyone else there, since they just seemed to know automatically when to stand, when to kneel, and when to sit. (We tried to follow their lead.) But I was just astonished by it.
And the old guy in a weird outfit swinging a censer full of burning incense? The whole thing - sight, sound, smell - was just _bizarre._ I'd never seen anything like that even on television.
Afterwards, we all 'voted' to try a different church. Heh, heh. We ended up going to the Methodist Church, which was the only church in our small town _and_ the one my Mom had been raised in. It didn't take, though. I don't remember ever _believing_ it (and I do remember believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny).
I had doubts in Sunday school when they told us we had to have "faith". I thought, "huh, they can't prove this stuff". I probably would have been an atheist as a kid but I saw a film about near death experiences and clung to that as "proof" of afterlife. It took me another 30 years to accept that I had no good reason to believe any of it. Good for you for figuring it out so quickly.
Good for you. Faith is NOT a path to truth.
@@jesuschrist-alphaomega So sayeth the lord...
@@baskeptic1161 lol 😆
The Bible historic facts have basically all been proven. You need to search a little deeper, but you can find them.
@gomogo2000 umm no it hasn't. Send me proof. Send me 1 Roman passage written about christ at the time of his life. Produce 1 original book written by the hand of a disciple. You an no one can produce these items. Because they don't exist.
I was raised roman catholic I had doubts when I was in my early teens
By fifteen years old I had totally deconverted I was lucky enough to be kicked out of catholic school and requested that I never return. Parents weren't happy but I was out and free and I never looked back.
If anyone wants to see the power of religion, turn on your tv and take a look at what is happening in Israel right now. BOTH of those groups truly believe, that they have God on their side in what they are doing and what they have done. The people who stormed the capitol on January 6th were mostly Christian Nationalists and the agendas they had were very disturbing. Strip away the religious component and we would actually have to see each other as equals and have to have diplomacy like rational, sane human beings again.
Strip away the facade of propriety and all you have are lunatics who believe in imaginary beings, imaginary wars and imaginary reward and punishment. THEY DO NOT CARE IF YOU HAVE TO DIE! This is the main point to remember; to get to 'heaven" and god's grace, they will stop at nothing to be "saved". And since "saved" means different things to different people, there is no structure, there is no process, there is only chaos and confusion.
sure....but imagine there was no religion, there were just different pagan secular tribes ...Guess what they would still be warring over land and over resources etc so "religion" per se isnt really the problem
@@4465Vman I’ve never said, “religion” is a problem. The current monotheistic religions however, are. They basically all claim that they have the key to heaven and that gives its adherents license to do all manner of disgusting BS in its name. It’s the idea that, as long as you bend the knee to the “right” celestial king, anything goes.
sure i understand that but faith in God helps alot of people as well ...but yeah all the endless disputes go on all the time whether its secular or religious @@roc5291
@@roc5291 Human societies have a way of identifying scapegoats and dealing with them in some fashion.
I am a human being navigating this life on earth. I entered earth through a woman. That is my reality.
Thank you Harrold. I often experience religious people as if they actually see themselves as gods. It occurs to me that they just don't want to say - I have a mother. Full stop.
It is interesting how bronze age and medieval thinking is held sacred. Perhaps those of us who resists the indoctrinations are the "Chosen".@@totonow6955
We were always taught, there are 2 things you should never talk about, religion & politics.
When I started questioning my beliefs, I would think to myself, how can we change anything or learn anything without talking about everything that we're questioning?
They don't want you talking about it because that's how things change. Just like employers not wanting employees to talk about their wages.
The other taboo subject is race. It was considered impolite to mention it at all. But again, how can progress be made if we refuse to talk about it?
Superb.
Good interview! 👍💙💝💙🥰✌.
yes, children should know there's no ghosts, monsters, or horrible invisible gods watching them, so they can grow up as mentally healthy adults
But they should also know there are human monsters. Quite a few of them in fact. Most people are good-hearted but not all.
Apparently you don't believe in Bigfoot either ...
@@righteousrico, do you? 😂😅
@dukeblair7792 I believe in all kinds of bullshit, it's just I can't prove it !!!
@@righteousrico Why would you believe things that you can provide no evidence of? That's irrational at best.
Hi Kate! I follow you in The Washington Post and love your writing. Looking forward to the new book. Seth, I've been following you since the beginning. Met you at a conference in Orlando and bought your book. Excellent interview. Thank you both.
This was a lovely conversation and I can’t wait to read the book. So glad I saw this.
"We have to get back in church."
That's what happened in my family. When I was... six, maybe? (something like that; I was the oldest), my mother decided that we three kids should start attending church. Why? I asked her that, several times. She always said "because that's what decent people do." She never _once_ said anything about God or Jesus.
My Dad didn't, either (except for cursing, of course). But they were very conventional. This was the 1950s, and they wanted to be just like everyone else. And "decent people" attended church. That was just what they thought.
(It didn't matter _which_ church. That was one positive thing about it. Well, I didn't know a single other person who wasn't a Christian - as far as I knew, at least - all the time I grew up. But at least it didn't matter which denomination. And we never heard anything about other religions back then, anyway. Christianity was just the default.)
But it didn't take, for me. I remember believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but not in "God." It just seemed weird to me. But back then, it seemed harmless. Everyone I knew seemed to believe it for an hour on Sundays, then ignore it the rest of the week. But that was before religion got so political here in America, back before the Republican Party adopted their "Southern strategy" of deliberately wooing white racists.
It wasn't until the George W. Bush administration that I recognized how harmful faith-based thinking really was. It wasn't until then that I realized I had to stand up as an atheist.
McCarthy has a lot to answer for and sadly Eisenhower let him get away with it.
Why do you exist....what is the purpose of all this.....why are we here
@@blakereeves3530
I exist because my parents had sex. And because of modern, science-based medical care which has saved my life at least four times.
What was the purpose of my parents having sex? I suppose they did it because it was fun, but... I never asked them. And they're dead now. You can ask _your_ parents, if you like. But it doesn't seem like a big mystery to _me._ :)
Anyway, what does that have to do with my comment?
@@Bill_Garthright clever, but that would be how you got here, not why. I understand the means....I'm asking about the end. To what end.
Why do you exist
@@blakereeves3530
_"that would be how you got here, not why."_
I already told you. My parents are dead, so I can't ask them why they had sex. It seems obvious to me. Have you never _had_ sex? It's enjoyable. And I know they wanted kids, so... that was probably a bonus, don't you think? :)
_"I'm asking about the end. To what end."_
I have no idea what you're talking about. *What* end? If you're still talking about my parents having sex, I'd prefer not to even _think_ about it. Heh, heh.
_"Why do you exist"_
I already told you. I don't know why you keep asking.
Why do _you_ exist, then? If my answer doesn't satisfy you, then let's hear yours. Maybe I can figure out what you're trying to say if you tell me why _you_ exist.
My lovely Jewish in-laws expressed that they believed that most Jews are atheists and that the religion is a social/community construct. I have no way of knowing how universal that is or whether it’s just their willingness to say it openly but most of my Jewish friends say pretty much the same thing when asked.
Christian friends are much less likely to even address the idea.
My husband and I moved to the US and joined, through a friend, a large social group of Jews. All were the children of Holocaust victims, having been sent on to England by their parents, to avoid the Nazis. Not a believer among them. What had their Yahweh done for them except give them the trauma of being taken from their loved ones and sent to live with strangers.
I've had at least one Jewish friend say that. She eats bacon (lol!) and had her daughter bat mitzvahed. She shrugged her shoulders and said she was doing it just because it's expected, community, social, etc. Her MIL, a survivor, suffered the aftereffects the rest of her life.
I returned to the Protestant church when my two children were born as as single parent. I regret that decision. Because it caused fear in one of my children as it did me as a child. I had no one to talk to as a child in the 1950’s. My son in the 1980’s didn’t share what fear he had until he was an adult. When my kids reached their teens I told them I thought they were old enough to choose to go to church or not. They both chose NOT. My toxic siblings and toxic parents bullied me for giving them that choice. I was shirking my Christian responsibility. Being 70, I embraced and left the church throughout my life due to family (embraced) pressures. I was told the reason so much went wrong in my life was due to not being a good Christian. I finally liberated myself from Christianity during the pandemic. I never liked Christmas after my children were older because I hated the rat race shopping frenzy. The expectation of gift giving. I love gifting when I want to gift not because a holiday is built on that.
Good talk. Just bought the book.
just purchased the Kindle version of Ms. Cohen's book. This is the voice I have been waiting to hear from inside the room of American non-believers. Thanx to Seth Andrews, and Kate Cohen.
When I was young, I chose to live by the light, to seek it and know it deeply. As an older man, now, I am thankful I made that decision.
I was raised in Christian Science.
Finally left after 30 years.
I’m happy to be free from the insanity every day.
Thank you for this terrific talk.
I am a devout atheist (the most certain strongest form). Raised in a semi religious environment (Presbyterian). Knew of my choice for atheism at an early age (12 years) now 67 years old …..since that childhood choice I became voracious science nut, and the world and my world is way more understandable now.
Why do you exist
Tell people that you
are a religious Atheist!
I was 14 when I went to our pastor for a conference. I was finding inconsistencies with the scriptures and wanted answers. I was told to have more FAITh' and not to question the Bible.. That did it for me. I never went back.
When I had that meeting I was given a couple of books, "Faith and Practice" and "The God Who is There." They at least introduced me to ideas about how secular education shapes the perspective we bring to the issue of God. I am sorry for your experience. A reading list would have been a better answer, especially by authors, atheist and Christian, who had wrestled with the same questions as you. After all that reading though, I find it comes to a decision to follow the teachings of Jesus, or not. It is that act that is our invitation to God to show up in our life. See John 14:23.
@timtrewyn453 Amen, brother
People just can't seem to get their head around ceasing to exist.
Or that we came from nothing.
But it's so easy. "I was not. I was. I am not. I do not care." -- Stoics' epitaph. Kids (4), do you remember anything before you were born? Three say no I don't remember anything. Were you sad then? Three kids say no. Well kids, that's what it's like when your dead. You're not sad. Fourth kid says, I remember I was in a family with horses and cows and trees . . . " Parent scratches head. The anomalous is out there. Socrates: All that I know is I know nothing.
"We have a child. We need to get back in church." And have their moral/spiritual development predicated on sin, guilt, and fear!
Great video. I want to respond to something your guest mentioned right at the beginning of the video about not wanting to pass on lies to her children. I had stopped being a Christian for about 2 years when my daughter was born. I had no intention of telling her about religion until she was old enough to have a real discussion. When she was 3, I put her in a preschool not associated with religion. It was supposed to be totally secular and psychology and education focused. A teacher there was talking to all the kids about Jesus every day and I didn't know until my daughter one day asked where Jesus was going to show up in the sky and when it was going to happen. I was very unhappy about that. Fortunately, it didn't make her accept Christianity later.
wow... it sickens me these people who cunningly invade and inject our lives with this BS
Little faith, with a lot of confidence!
Socrates: All I know is I know nothing.
The default position is and should be unbelief until sufficient evidence to demonstrate the truth (in reality) of the proposition. So teaching your children those things is very appropriate.
Thanks for your wisdom Kate Cohen.
I was raised as a believer or whatever and sick and tired of pretending what I am not. Thank God finally I found the truth.🤔
and the truth is?
So, you don't believe in a power greater than yourself. So be yourself. I am grateful to hear with my ears, see with my eyes, and understand with my heart. So be it!
I completely agree. Ask questions and think critically. Live an authentic life.
I enjoyed that.
Thank you Seth and Kate. Great program, so important message. Take care of children, tell the truth about religions and don't brainwash them to one religion.
Children are programmable but not all are equally programmable. I call it "brainsoiling".
My mother sent me to a Catholic school but I started reading science fiction in 4th grade. Lots of SF writers didn't and don't think much of religion. I decided that I was an agnostic at 12.
My mother sent me to Sunday School at a Methodist church initially, but when we moved within the same suburb when I was about six, the Baptist church was closer so I was sent there. I stopped going around 16, but still had my wedding there later, when my attitude was "OK, you want a ceremony, fine, tell me when and where and I will show up and go through with it if it will make you all happy". The day I crystallised my hardly-voiced even to myself doubts was when I set out to read the whole bible because I was a nerd who read any book I could get my hands on. This was about age 14. I only got as far as creation, where I read that the whole observable universe was described as put in the sky to be a light unto man. I thought "Hol' up! That sounds like such an arrogantly self-centred view of things, it can't possibly be true" That was it for me.
I was a Sadventist, and my fiance was a flerfer, my life was an argument, but looking back now, I can honestly say it was worth it, because in arguments our passions and true convictions come out so automatically... we actually learn about ourselves and where we truly stand... on a globe, that spins around the Sun. Life is so much easier now that I don't have to teach such elementary principles, such as love and hate, are not synonymous.
I have never believed, as my parents simply never brought it up.
I appreciated the discussion about pedantics. It does sound weird to me when someone says they're an "Agnostic," as I wonder "Agnostic WHAT?" Agnostic is in regard to knowledge, not belief.
I consider myself to be a Gnostic Atheist. Everyone forgets the Gnostics.
I suspect that Unicorns are not real, and I cannot find proof to support that, so I am comfortable with declaring that Unicorns do not exist. With regard to gods, I think the best we have is probability. Based on what I see around me, the probability that there is a god out there who is NOT connected to any human religion is very, very, very, very, very, very small, and the probability that there is a specific god connected to an exclusive man-made religion is even smaller. This is why I say that I see no reason why I should believe in any gods, regardless of whether or not they are commercially available for purchase.
For that reason, I am comfortable say that there is no god, or that there are no gods.
On a side note, I made Atheist videos as "TheOtherSide100" from 2009-2011, before I had to delete my channel for work-related reasons [long story]. I created this channel a while back, maybe a year ago, after a Muslim friend who lives in a country where Atheism and apostacy is punishable by death encouraged me to get back into Atheist video making. So I'm trying to get myself back into the game. My avatar was made by BionicDance about 15 years ago. The landscape has changed dramatically, even though Seth has been here through all of it, so I am in the process of figuring it all out and finding a way to contribute to the broader conversation.
What a pleasant and balanced guest .... and of course, an equally pleasant host!!
Daniel Dennett has a fascinating riff that many (perhaps most) "believers" actually don't believe but, rather, "believe in belief."
I am so happy to hear Cohen stating that her children made her an atheist. "It stops here." Same. I do educate them on religions in general, along with questioning the world around them. It's a wonderful feeling talking to my sons about everything.
What I told my parents is, belief is a beautiful thing, it's very human, it's one of our oldest, oldest traditions, we all have beliefs about "what all this is", but religion is the power structure built by specific men who are elite in society (kings, nobles, men in fish hats, etc) that's seized on our beliefs and used them to gain money, control, and maintain power. Thus world leaders go to the Pope when he calls. That seemed to click a lightbulb in them.
Quite true. We evolved with religion. It does many things. It addresses the wealthy man's dilemma, that is, he is a minority. Religion can be adjusted to protect him (he'll gladly put up with a story or two about rich men having difficulty entering the kingdom), as the opiate of the masses. But in the present, there is still this standing proposal -- John 14:23.
I needed this. Bad. If I already didn't believe in a god I would swear he brought me to this interview lol. Outstanding. Thank you both!
I was the most passionate hungriest and most knowledgeable devout christian lol thats what made me leave. Best decision ever. Religious indoctrination should be illegal.
I don't know how you would be able to legislate against it but I agree it should be considered a disgrace within our society and when there is knowledge of it happening to speak out against it to those doing it.
It's time Churches start paying Taxes. Faith healers should be Banned and Outlawed EVERYWHERE!!
Me too. Almost forty years in Christian ministry, and now Atheist.
I was brought up in a casually religious household in the South. Although my family members were true believers in God and Christianity, they didn’t attend church very often. I actually took myself to church as a young child (to a Southern Baptist church just a couple of doors down).
As a kid, I read a lot. I have always been an intellectually curious person who loved science. I wanted to know the truth about the world and how things worked. I wanted to know everything. After reading about other religions and cultures. I realized that religion was man made. I was 10 years old! I flew under the radar for years and kept my head down.
In college, I came out of the closet. As a young adult, I decided that the stigma surrounding atheism was best countered with letting others know that I am atheist whenever the subject of religion came up. Saying it out loud in a respectful but confident, non-apologetic manner to let people know that atheists aren’t monsters with two heads. We are everyday people just like them…just with different views deserving of respect. In fact, demanding it!
I’m always happy to see and hear from people with a similar mindset to mine.
I was 14 when I took myself to the Baptist church. I’m 61 and prayed my last prayer when I was 56. I asked God, “why do I have to ask you to take care of your children?!”
so Science is your religion?
@@dawood121derful
LOL! Absolutely not. Science is not a religion. It’s the study of the natural world with the goal of understanding how it works and why things are the way they are. But, as opposed to getting understanding of the world from religious dogma (by people who just made stuff up with no evidence to try to explain the unknown), science ACTUALLY reflects reality to the best of our (humankind’s as a whole) knowledge. And, science changes, gets updated, when new information is gleaned. The ENTIRETY of modern life, including the smart phone that I’m using to reply, is a product of science. If we, humankind, had just stuck to only understanding the world through religion, we’d be living much more primitively and suffering much more (i.e., ailments, water pathogens, quality of life, & etc). I don’t have anything against other’s religious beliefs. You could literally worship a trash can and I’m okay with it…as long as you’re not hurting anyone (physically, mentally/emotionally, or financially) or forcing your beliefs on others. I decided a long time ago that I don’t need religion in my life. It’s just not necessary.
I'm an atheist because the combination of science, allowing insight, and empathy, using that sight well, made me more moral than faith ever could.
well since you only have to please yourself I'm sure that makes everything very comfortable for you.
I agree with Kate in that we maybe try not to hurt people's feelings for a long time after we realize or become non-believers. I'm 41 and still have not told anyone in my family except for my sisters. They are all really conservative, non-denoms, and my father is still a pastor. I keep kicking the can down the road, going on about 5 years now since I finally told myself that I was an atheist (even though I think that I never really believed in it from even a young age).
Same - I told a friend just today that I don't tell people as to spare *their* feelings.
Yea my family responded with things like "It makes me sad you're not saved"
and I had to finally tell them it makes me sad they believe I'm going to a hell just because I don't believe what they believe.
These days when people ask me if I'm "saved" I ask, "saved from who?" And i point out according to their religion God made hell, not Satan, and God is the one who will put me in that hell when I'm dead, so I guess I have to ask God himself to save me from God himself...
Religions are absurd when you step back and look at it.
@@NOMAD-qp3dd Was the Samaritan absurd when he didn't pass by the half dead man on the road like the priest and the Levite did?
I grew up in Methodist church. My mom was church secretary we participated in choir etc. I never believed. I stopped going to church after graduation. I have been atheist 35 + years now.
Lucked out growing up having both parents (pre-kid) fed up and done with 'God-needs-your-money-church-stuff.' Was invited by neighborhood kids to attend Sunday school at the nearby Assembly of God with the promise of pink & white frosted animal cookies. With sprinkles. I vaguely recall a fight Mom & Dad got into over us going. Our lust for those cookies won out. For a few tortuous Sundays, I impatiently waited for the end of 'Outer Limits' sermons, song-singing and prayers. For that sweet, sweet payoff. Thanks for the cookies, Assembly of God!
Thank you for this.
She seems like a great person.
Loved the interview.
Thanks for the video
Can't wait to read this.
I grew up as a Evangelisch Lutherian in England, I am German, but at the age of around 12 I started to see the contradictions in the book of the Jews, I asked my religion teacher at school, but to my dismay recieved no answer to my questions. It was then that I decided to stop believing the rubbish they were trying to feed me, at the age of 15 I was completely free of them. I am now 72 and still have no qualms about my decision from then.
Thank you for your book and informative discussion. I’ve just celebrated 31 years of sobriety and am a member of AA. Over the past few years I’ve voiced my being an atheist. It didn’t go over well, I’m still a member and sober even though I don’t believe in G-d as my “higher power”. The third tradition of AA is, “The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.” I felt ashamed for many years, but I finally had to share my non belief. Members say to me, but you are “spiritual “. Well, I can be swept away by beautiful music or a painting, or magnificent sights in nature. Why do I need a label? Is it to make other AA’s comfortable? Again, thank you for your open and honest discussion. Sandra
The United States is a bizarre outlier in the developed world as far as religion goes. It seems to be at least a century behind Europe.
COSMOS by Carl Sagan is my Bible!
The music of COSMOS are my hymns!
And when I need a little bible thumping, James Randi is the man!
Good for you my dear. Glad to know there are still some rational and educated people left in the world. (I liked and subscribed.)
Great discussion - much appreciated! I'm not outspoken about what I don't believe, but I'll speak freely about it when asked.
There are just too many incongruities for me to take any of it seriously.
No atheist I know, and I know quite a lot, has ever said to anybody else not to look into religion. Because once you know the way science works, you look at religion and you can actually tell why it's all just made up. Because you are able to think for yourself.And that does not mean, you cannot believe in God, if you want, but relgion and God are two completely different things.
I am absolutely fine when someone says that we do not know how everything started, or what eternity is, so maybe there is a God. But if someone tells me that I have to be an obedient little suck up to a hierarchy of powerful man who say they know what that all powerful being wants us to think, do and say, I just have to laugh out loud. That notion, to me, is so ridiculous.
But it actually isn't just ridiculous, it is also very dangerous and for me, it is the one source of all problems that society today faces.
So, again, if you ask me, is there a God, I say "maybe, what do I know?", but if you tell me I have to believe in religious doctrin made up by man who want to have power over me I say "hell no, that is never gonna happen (again)".
Btw, I was raised catholic, and I left chruch when I was 25, when I heard that then pope John Paul II said that women who were raped during the Yugoslavian war and took an abortion pill afterwards were going straight to hell. How dare that little fuck! If you think that following such men and such an institution will get you to heaven, well, I guess any argument is lost on you and the few braincells that make up your brain.
It's literally a mult-trillion dollar tax free business - it's a business of power and riches and oppression - that's it.
I'm with you!
" . . . it is the one source of all problems that society today faces." I disagree. The wealthy have a dilemma. They are outnumbered. They will work to turn any institution into something that protects them, an opiate of the masses that even advances their interests and their desire for more. However, I have met many wealthy who simply worked very hard and who I find quite admirable. So I cannot blame everything on them.
Society's deeper problem is all of us tend to look for a scapegoat for our suffering . . . see the Holodomor, the Gulag Archipelago, the Holocaust, the skulls atop the Aztec temples, Jesus on the cross. Crowds of enforcers manipulated into thinking their problems would be solved once certain people were gone. Please don't go there, man.
"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
@@timtrewyn453 Oh, so it's better to have some imagined super-almighty ghost to blame it all on? Yeah right. rather be a sheep in the holy church and say "Gods ways are mysterious" or "It was Gods will" or whatever. these hypocrits and pedophiles told you to believe
And what are you talking about the wealthy? That is the same kind of thinking. As long as people like you live in a world of hierarchy, of people reigning over others, of people being better than others, telling them what to say, what to do and who to hate and kill, the world will remain a shithole for most. You need to wake up. Institutions like the church were implemented to keep the wealthy and powerful on top of the majority of people. That was the goal when a roman heathen emperor saw his power waneing and therefore decided to make himself the first pope of a new religion. They created the bible so it would give them power over others, it would make people believe that God meant the church to be the surrogate of him on the earth. And people like you believe it and follow no matter what.
Wake up! These institutions were soley created to give them power and the reason for this power (God put them there, like the King of England). These institutions entitled them to do the things they do. Stop following, start thinking, really, that was directed derectly at peopple like you.
As a little kid I always wanted proof of the ways things are.
I really identified. We weren’t a church-going family but, like most English kids born in the 60s, my brother and I were christened in the Church of England and were expected to sing hymns in school and recite the Lord’s Prayer in assembly. I was a keen reader from a young age and, like Kate, I just saw the bible as another work of fiction. I knew that the fairies and monsters I read about as a young child weren’t real and I felt the same about the “characters” in the bible. I worked it out for myself.
What about all the things that go on around football? Is there metaphor going on?
Great interview. I was pleased that our library has the book and look forward to reading it. Am a former evangelical Christian, then moved to agnostic, now atheist. I spent decades defending god and the bible from the indefensible. Took me decades to finally realize that I am not a believer-period. That there cannot be a loving powerful god with all the suffering in the world. I know all the theological arguments and used them repeatedly. I blinded myself to reality. No more, but I was old before I became authentic-in my 80s before I finally don’t hold back.
Now I cannot believe how brainwashed I was. How absurd religions are. Peel back most prejudices and you’ll find religion. And prayer. When I hear “thoughts and prayers” I want to SCREAM. I like the poster I have on my wall: “I named my 2 cats “Thoughts” and “Prayers” because both are worthless.”
If god answers prayer, why don’t all the believers just pray for peace on earth and justice and see transformation? It’s so absurd.
When people say, “God rescued me” after a disaster Why didn’t he/she/it he rescue everyone? Ludicrous.
Such a stigma to be an atheist. How awful! One LGBTQI man said that he suffered a lot of prejudice as a gay man. But it was nothing compared to the abuse he received when he came out as an atheist. I doubt anyone can be elected if they are honest atheists. The bias is enormous.
Just as the word "Christian" means different things to different people, the word "atheist" can be loaded with presuppositions. To some, it's equivalent to "anti-theist", suggesting something aggressive. If I've said to people that I'm an atheist, sometimes they've said, "Oh, you're into Richard Dawkins, then?" I've then replied, "No, I can't stand Richard Dawkins. Losing my belief in Christianity had nothing to do with him." Quakers use the term "non-theist" to avoid any aggressive connotations.
IN THE BEGINNING WHEN HUMAN HAD HIS FIRST TOUGHTS HE CREATED GOD IN HIS OWN IMAGINATION 😊 BECAUSE HE LIVED IN A TERRIFYING WORLD ⚡ FULL OF SCARY STUFF AND HE WAS NOT ON TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN 😅..... something like that lol..... Thanks, you two you are awesome 👌 👍 👍👍👍
really? so where did the cosmos and the seeds of life come from?
Right on. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you Seth and Kate for having and sharing this conversation. I grew up in the Anglican church (semi-progressive Christianity when it wants to be) in the seventies and eighties. I was in the faith by birth but never really felt as though I were part of it or wanted to be. As a card carrying PK, it took me many years to be honest with myself and even longer to extend that authenticity to others.
We left the "christian" church after we were the target of suppositions & lies. My unforgivable "sin?" Being a single-mom to my lovely daughter. F'ing hypocrites!!
Judgemental, hypocritical, entitled and hateful. That's why I left Christianity. Who needs that kind of energy? It's exhausting!
How so very pro life of them. /S
So sorry. My dad was our single parent for years. Our church was still nice to us, even more so for what had happened. I obviously do not understand your situation or that church.
I find agnosticism is the best way to go. I don't know if there is a god or not. It seems irrelevant to my striving to be a good, sympathetic, empathetic, generous person worthy of respect. (I feel the same way about time travel)
Gnosticism addresses knowledge while theism addresses belief. They are not mutually exclusive.
i would say agnostic/gnostic is irrelevant. i mean, we could all just be living in a simulation. besides which, knowledge is a subset of belief - not the other way around
I think this is why the belief in deism during the scientific revolution / age of enlightenment was somewhat popular/common. Someone or something set the universe in motion and we can make sense of the natural laws. If there was a god/creator it was irrelevant to everyday life and incapable or unwilling to intercede on anyone's behalf.
My parents were secular and never mentioned religion and I inquired one day and my father explained that nobody knew about religion for sure, but if we get to vote on it the Chinese would win as there are so many of them! Mother told us that religion was something a person should decide themselves as it was much too important to decide for someone else and for us to explore and read and think and make a decision. It was suggested that religion was somewhere between silliness and superstition and mostly motivated by fear of death.
I decided it was all silliness so never left religion, I was never there. I am a Vietnam veteran and there are "atheists in foxholes" I assure you. Best of luck to all of us!
So glad that you narrated your own audiobook, Kate! Can't wait to listen.
Thank you Seth Andrews you have helped my family leave Christianity it feels free
growing up in communism, my parents never told me ANYTHING about God and religion. I guess dad belives, mom.. don't really know.We went to church at Eastern and some other special ocasions , weddings, funerals, baptises , ofcourse .. but they never discussed with me, it was just something we did .
At 13-14 , I was curious. The communists were done so I was free to find out what was teh deal with God and religion ... So I found my grandfather's Bible and start READING IT.
Yeah. Long story short, I am an atheist. Been one from like page 20.
You cannot be religious unless someone brained washed you as a child, or you have the mindset of a child.
that's not true, I was raised secular without any church upbringing and I am a believing Christian. I believe the Bible to be historic and absolute truth. God is an eternal spirit and you can't change His existence by a puny declaration. Your experience is not the same or any more valid than the many of millions of believers.
@@dawood121derful so you are an ADULT who belives in witches and demons , and WOULD sacrifice his first born if he has a certain dream tonight. And have no problem giving up his daughters to be gang r.ped to save some strangers.
And you think your "experience " is valid (?!) and should be taken serious ...realy ?!
I suggest to read your book again.
I love this woman. Great views, eloquently put.
Thank you Kate Cohen for speaking out on this topic, I follow you on the Wash Post and enjoy your writing. I too have struggled with what being "spiritual" means, ever since my step-monster accused me and my brothers of not being spiritual beings. As if it was an insult. She was also the one who said I should say agnostic instead of atheist like she was offended by the term. I was 18 years old, but fortunately didn't have to live with her (although she tried her best to drive a wedge between me and my dad - for lots of different reasons not just faith).
Hmm, I hate Christmas, it's an ode to hyper-consumerism.
That's what put me off Christmas many years before I deconstructed.
I look at it as a feast day with family and friends when the joy of children receiving gifts and a hearty meal is the main objective in the midst of winter. I only give small gifts to the children under age of 18 and thus I keep the budget in tact. It's a delight to sit in front of the fireplace with a fake tree lit up with colorful lights and children on the floor opening their gifts and getting excited seeing what they've received from their family members after eating an over abundance of delicious food. Once a year, it's just a nice day long celebration of warmth. Other than that, I could not care a jot about it.
If that's what you want from Christmas then that's what you get. For me it's the celebration of the winter, some food, hugs from friends and small gifts of appreciation for riends and loved ones.
I would love to know what spiritual means is it just a nonsensical word. If someone says their spiritual could you explain in plain English.
@@Mrz-sb1hw the comments here just take the cake. It just blows my mind how grown people can say such crazy stuff.
I used to call myself an atheistic Agnostic. However, when I realized that what I'm relating myself to is Theism and the Gods of the religions created by human cultures, I then knew that I could legitimately call myself an Atheist. I don't believe that any of these humanly imagined Gods exist. It's seems more than obvious that all these Gods are nothing more than human-cultural creations. Now, on the other hand, if someone wants to consider the idea that there may be some supernatural power that created the universe, well in that regard I also absolutely seriously doubt that there is some sort of supernatural power behind it all, but I can't truly know that and won't claim that I can. I'm an absolute atheist with respect all Gods represented in all human religions. None of these Gods exist. Perhaps that too is hard to prove, but I think it's absolutely possible to prove that they are all human creations. If we can prove that religions are not based in anything beyond human imagination, then it's not my responsibility to prove that there isn't some God which coincidentally some religions correctly imagined. It's the obligation of whatever religion to prove that there is some real basis to the God they believe in.
Whilst you aren't supposed to prove a negative, I think given the lack of evidence for any supernatural being or god is compelling that they don't exist.
Just finished Kate’s book. Loved it!
I was raised catholic. Went through many stages between leaving the church and arriving at atheism (pagan, spiritual etc.). I got less grief from christians when I identified as pagan than I do when I call myself atheist.
The Bible is a collection of literature authored by members of a tribal culture living on the Sinai Peninsula.
Wasn't that during what science has named the Iron Age?
I may be wrong.
@@sidstovell2177 Some yes, some are from the older bronze age as well. Many of the stories were stolen from older societies yet.
Generally true. But we still educate our children with fictional stories in English class. "Catcher in the Rye" "Charlotte's Web" "Ceremony", "A Lesson Before Dying",etc. We still codify some religious laws on murder and theft.
If ever there was a time when I could have believed in ' god ' , it must have been when I was a small boy and I still believed in ' Santa Claus ' . But I cannot remember a time when , if the subject of religion came up , that I wouldn't hesitate to tell people what I personally know , which is that ALL religions are nothing more than organized superstition . Period . Now , I don't care one wit about what others like to say that they believe , just as long as they don't try to force that stuff on me . And I believe that a secular government is a civilized and a democratic necessity .
Good for you Kate! You have arrived at the correct answer to the question of how many gods exist.
In the 50's my folks moved to Laurelwood, OR.....primarily a Seventh Day Adventist community. This is the first time they didn't attend church and is what started my path towards being the atheist I am today.