Primarch Redundancies | Warhammer 40k Lore
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The lack of psychic redundant primarchs implies that a psychic primarch belonged to one of the erased legions
Wasnt mortarion and magnus psykers?
Edit.
My dumbass got confused
Magnus..yes..perturabo....wellllll he was a type of psycho@@xzenitramx666
Or both
Mortarion is second in psychic power among primarch if i am not wrong.
And All all the primarch have psychic ability no matter how weak because of what they are made of. Self denial not included (Guillaman).
Lorgar becomes a psychic beast during Heresy.
Never forget, Magnus the Red doesn't have a redundancy.
Officially.
Could have been 2nd or 11th
@@hardyboy7408thats his point...
Lorgar's psychic might rivals Magnus, and they both love acquiring knowledge, its entirely reasonable that Lorgar could have sat the Throne
Apparently Guilleman had some sizable Psyker potential so he might be the redundancy for Magnus.
Especially if Prospero is any indication of the kinds of worlds the thousand sons can make.
@@DINOROAR2912I disagree. Lorgar was seen as the weakest of the primarchs until he was buffed by chaos going into the Horus heresy. It’s a chaplain vs a librarian
Traitor Primarchs be like "I never wanted this 😔" while they atomise puppies.
“Burns Galaxy”
What do you think the Lion's role as the Escaton was? 🤔
Some of them genuinely didn’t
@@jellydamgood Good point.
@@brian2888 "casually stabs nephew"
The Emperor was so far sighted, he even made a back up mysterious missing primarch for the already mysterious missing one
The difference between the stealthy legion can be summed up as
Raven guard: you dont see them and you dont know they're there
Night Lords: you dont see them but you KNOW they're there
Alpha legion: you see them but you dont know they're there
There’s a nice short story in the Corax anthology where a loyalist night lord works with some raven guard
They leave a target alive, due to the night lord’s suggestion because the fear they have will lead them to safety, aka their base
Or something like that
Dark Angels -You see them and you KNOW they are here. But you dont know what they are up to.
@@henriquekop1762 Oh, I've read something about a lore from 1d4chan that Alpherious was quite frustrated to Lion because he doesn't know how the Lion's though or how much he knows secret about Alpherious
@@ronanchristiana.belleza9270 classic Psycho ( Alpharius/Oregon) vs Schizo (Lion) dilema.
@@kelakogreenaddict1888 "the Value of Fear" is the name of that short story, is great.
Primarchs 2 and 11 shared the trait of sassing their Dad.
What makes Leman and Corvus work so well together as well is the fact that in the real world ravens and wolves have a symbiotic relationship which makes them amazing hunters together.
What better symbiosis do you need for war than big angry wolves charging in, while the sneaky beakies, that the enemy doesn't even know is there, outflanks them while destabilizing defenses? They're perfect
Oh yeah make sense
There’s also the fact that Odin had two ravens: thought and memory aka Huginn and Muninn.
Odin also had two wolves: Geri and Freki
Ravens will also play with young pups as well. It's pretty awesome seeing two animals essentially be great friends
@@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus how much did we know about wolves and ravens working together? Because the Norse might've known before us, or they just got lucky
The idea that Angron and Vulcan were designed for the same purpose but one is an example of a broken version of the tool is very interesting.
It also helps out The Emperor's seemingly inexplicable behavior on Nuceria. He came looking for his healer paragon and found a rabid dog instead. He stole Angron away and doomed his companions because he didn't care about Angron's loyalty. As far as He was concerned Angron was a broken tool, usable only as bludgeon before being disposed of.
We see the same thing with Mortarion and Magnus. Magnus was already easily the third psyker in the Imperium when found.
Mortarion is incredibly powerful, but hated and suppressed his psychic nature so hard that it twisted and broke him. When found the Emperor didn't even bother trying to fix or help him. Too much work and resources. He already had Magnus. So the Emperor stole Mortarion's vengeance and used him as the destroyer he had become.
I think Angron was supposed to fulfill Sanguinius's role, and vice versa. Think about it. Look at their genetic traits.
Angron: Psychically empathetic. Unifier. Heals with just words and touch.
Sanguinius: Fangs. Bloodlust, desire to kill. Premonition, capable of seeing the future.
One was clearly designed to be a weapon and the other less so. It was their nature. Yet, their raising (their nurturing) made them into the opposite. Angron got the Nails, Sanguinius was raised saving people.
The empath became the butcher and the butcher became the empath.
@The_Libationist I agree. It could explain why Emps was so cold to Angron; he already found Vulcan, a Perpetual and with a strong moral compass, and Sanguinius, the “perfect” one. He didn’t need Angron at that point, though I wish he tried to rehabilitate him.
he also had sanguineous aswell still left
@@moderndavinci6599 and that's why both of them are broken.
A big one to the “modern” world of 40k is “The Author.” Both Lorgar and Guilliman valued recording their own thoughts and experiences for the sake of posterity and both wrote singular texts that their perspective sides would become obsessed with over the millennia
Imperium became obsessed with both of their books
thank you, he forgotten Rob. I was like "what about Guilliman?"
Yeah, I'd put them both under "Empire building" above and beyond straight conquest, with Lorgar reshaping cultures and Guilliman shaping the logistical systems Empires ran on.
@@maltheri9833 and both primarchs now cringe at the extent to which people follow them. The eternal curse of being a writer lmao, you all ways end up seeing nothing but flaws in your work given enough time.
Oh yes, and both primarchs pondered what they could be outside of generals. And neither was especially into fighting for its own sake. And they both led large generalist legions whose only strength was working with non-Astartes. Had always assumed that was why the Emperor took Guilliman to Monarchia. Lorgar could never be The Lion or Ferrus, but I think to Big E he was like “you are supposed to be like him!”
Redundancy in warfare is very important! Backup systems that don't fundamentally change how your military operates when things break down are good things.
"2 is 1 and 1 is none" -My Platoon Sgt literally any time we prepared for anything
@@dagand0 people look at me crazy for saying that, 2 is 1 and 1 is none and you never have only one plan with no back up.
Yes I bring 3 of anything I need with me.
Alpharius and Omegon are the paragons of redundancy
It should also be noted on the Dorn v Perturabo bit that Perturabo had plans for construction, infrastructure, and architecture that could have easily rivaled Dorn but, had always pushed back and delayed his plans because the needs of the crusade in his eyes were more important. Tear it all down, make it ugly but, fast and effective now and when we're all done we can come back and make it beautiful
I'm sure Perty would say that. Would that turn out? Pretty skeptical. Especially if it's his version of magnificence.
@@TheEarlofManwhich Seeing Dorn garbage fortress failed to keep traitors out and ended with Emperor needing to do suicide run while Perturabo's would obliterate the whole Fist legion if Ultramarines didn't arrive with massive force to bail them out, pretty much, yes. I especially like how Dorn was so dumb to let his fortress become completely useless and fail when someone breaks to the center of it while Perturabo was smart (and troll) enough to make center just one massive kill zone with taunting messages while real multiply redundant HQs and fallback areas were safely moving where enemy wasn't...
@@KuK137what do you mean garbage? If you didn’t notice the casualties on the Traitors side were obscene, 6 traitor legions, 3 of which were at full strength mind you and all good at attack and sieging vs 3 loyalist and only 1 that was suited for defence and the Custodes but they were busy and at the lowest numbers they ever had been and ever would be.
Not to mention that by the end of the seige, Terra was literally being pulled into the Warp by the large amount of warp energies
The white scars were outriders whilst the blood angels were shock assault yet Dorn managed to hold the traitors off long enough for the remaining dark angels and ultramarines to get close enough to get Horus panicked.
By that estimate Dorn did extremely well.
@@lachlanevans5013 all this Iron Warrior love has gotten a little out of control. The IW were important, but they were about as competent as the Imperial Fists and their biggest virtue among the traitors was being the traitor legion least hight in warp juice. Not literally insane and literally not lobotomized, just look at the night lords and world eaters, their incompetence was _mostly_ out of their control (and the Thousand sons were pretty useful for a legion comprised of 6 survivors and 3/4 of a primarch).
@@leandrocastello309 I’m not dissing the Iron warriors they’re my second favourite traitor legion(after the sons of Horus) I’m just defending the Dorn and the Imperial fists.
The thought of all the primarchs being the middle child is so hilarious yet make so much sense.
I think you missed a very important narrative connection between Jaghatai and Corax. They are the Liberators. They both waged war against tyrants, despised some of more authoritarian brothers(Horus), both are extremely perceptive and free-willed
That could go for alot more primarchs narrative wise tho
But then what about angron?
You can argue that Mortarion is also a liberator at his core. In a more twisted way than Corax ofc
@@angelmochi9630 Angron got a narrative arc of a liberator, but he failed at it miserably, because he was not built to be one, at least that what I believe
From what I remember Horus was one of the Primarchs Jaghatai could get along with. Also Corax didn't like Horus not because he was more Authoritarian but because he tended to misuse his Legion in his eyes.
There's something to be said about pre-fall Fulgrim that is often forgotten, in that he also was a primarch of industry and perhaps even statecraft; he arrived on the miserable, dying world of Chemos, through efforts exponentially bettered the life of everyone on that world, and didn't keep it as some savage place to keep as recruitment pool of hardy folks for his legion like so many of his brothers did. He made it a thriving and vibrant place. I wish we got to see Chemos in the HH series. His approach is that of the charismatic politician and diplomat, in a way that complete Guilliman's more administrative touch. His legion used to share that meticulous planning of battle aspects as well, though probably more on the tactical than strategical and logistical scale.
He also more or less had to rebuild his entire legion from the ground up, something that could relate to Magnus' journey with his own legion.
In any case, he was more than a fancy showboating duelist; he was an accomplished diplomat and a patron of the arts, something that could be shared with Sanguinius in some capacity.
Can fulgrim be thought of as the ultimate backup due to his obsession of perfecting everything?
@@GeoffryGifari Fulgrim and the Lion both were sorta "jacks of all trades" backups, as both of their legions tried to have a general grasp and mastery of all they set their minds to. The Lion's Dark Angels embody this through their wings, with the Dreadwing, the Deathwing, the Ironwing, and so forth, where each specialized division would have a mastery over a field of warfare. The Emperor's Children moreso tried to perfect almost everything they could as a whole legion. Though Dorn and Perturabo may focus on siege warfare for instance, there are instances of both the Emperor's Children and the Dark Angels both demonstrating a mastery of that particular way of war. Fulgrim at Istvaan, and the Lion in his Primarch book.
So you could say him and Gulliman were the Politicians.
I like the idea that Angron was made to help heal his brothers after being to used to war
Combined with the honorable devoted brotherhood aspect that he had going on with his fellow gladiators....we almost had space paladins.
Could angron have cured or at least healed the red thirst?
I think the ability of Perturabo to see the Eye of Terror took form when his eyes gazed through the capsule's "glass" while he was being transported through the warp. He simply never forgot what the warp and its influence looks like, and could see the biggest leak of the warp into real-space.
Iirc at the beginning of the Alpharius Primarch book, it’s stated that the role Alpharius got as keeper of secrets/spymaster was not the one that was intended for them, but that changed when all the Primarchs got flung out to the Galaxy and Alpharius was the only one left on Terra.
Corvus could've be spymaster. Him being able to literally turn invisible but Alpharius being able to seem like a nobody and being a master spy is pretty much textbook definition of spymaster
@@maltheri9833 I personally think Alphi/omag were meant to be warriors. The alpha legion had some of the largest marines and despite having his power literally split in two Alphi/Omag were still not the weakest prime arch. Something else that is interesting is that despite being a spy he still craved glory and sought battles of martial prowess something which would have been disadvantageous in a spy and stealthy fighter.
The secret keeper archetype applies to both the Lion and Alpharius
The technician archetype applies to Ferrus Mannus and Perterabo
The “king slayer” archetype applies to Horus and Russ
The “great warrior king” archetype applies to the Khan and Russ in the whole Great Khan/Great wolf warlord role.
Couldn’t you also argue that the Lion falls under the archetype of “Great Warrior King” as well?
Perturabo was a textbook neurotic lol
Never satisfied always feeling slighted. A man child given demigod form.
Interesting list indeed. My first tought is that Fulgrim fits the administrator archetype too.
That’s true! And the charismatic leader!
I feel like Fulgrim is sort of a Generalist archetype all on his own. Maybe not the best at anything but possibly the best at anything at the same time. I think the more you look into him the more its hard to pin him down. Besides stealth or infiltration i think he fits into any given archetype in this list.
Ig his thing is that he doesnt have any special power but he tries to be the best at everything, so hes a contender in every category but he often gets overlooked or simplified as the fancy duelist femboy@@livefromtheblacklibrary
@@aguspuig6615Fulgrim does have a niche though, one seem by how he was able to unite his homeworld entirely without bloodshed via playing politics: he is redundant with Guiliman for being the politician primarch
It shows up in Valdor: Birth of the Imperium that he is starting to call them his sons.
If I recall correctly, Malcador is surprised he did so. But I do not remember if it was in jest or not.
@@edmundthespiffing2920No it was serious, he started calling them his sons when they were still babies. Malcador raised an eyebrow at it but he kept the fact he was surprised by it to himself. I think them being flung away by Chaos especially made him force himself to be more cold towards them, but as the Crusade went he started warming up to some of them yet. I think that's the only way it makes sense
@ironduke5058 perturbo's paranoïa comes from somewhere. The Emperor being cautious with his sons makes sense, I guess. But the Emperor is also known to have a weird, twisted sense of humor. Like how he named the Astartes after the scientist that helped make, then kill them. Maybe calling them his sons this early was just him making "a joke".
@@edmundthespiffing2920wasn't that a sign of respect? Still giving them her name when he could easily have erased her but instead just left her to live in peace
@@edmundthespiffing2920 it wasn't him making a joke.
If angron had not hot the nails he would have been one hell of a primarch.
The Paladin, a beast of single combat that also throws a "Iss just a little booboo, see? No more booboo on you" to his allies while chopping arms left right and center.
I think that's the point. It adds to the tragedy.
The statesman category would most likely be Guilliman and Fulgrim due to their leadership roles in a less militaristic way, leaning more towards politics and statecraft.
I feel you were spot on with all these categories. And it just goes to show which Primarchs are able to do what. Perturabo was an interesting one with just how many categories he was in. Just goes to show how versatile he was compared to the other Primarchs.
That’s the most positive things I’ve ever heard you say about Mortarion
Yeah a nice change
Shows what Corvus knew, Lion clapped daemon Angron’s cheeks
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Exactly. Sanguinius and Curze are equally matched and the Lion bests him too.
To be fair, Lion was trained for decades in the art of dueling. Sanguinius and Angron were created to be duelists, Lion achieved that position from his time growing up on a death world (in terms of skill in a duel, the only one who get close to Lion is Russ)
Angron grew up fighting men. Lion grew up fighting monsters, and thus when fighting daemon primarchs he's in his element. He fights almost on instinct at that point
The Lion's my favourite primarch but I think you're overestimating him. My understanding is taking Curze took multiple attempts, one of which Curze would have won were it not for Corswains intervention. Also while demon Angron is more powerful than pre demon Angron, he is also dumber and probably an easier match up for the Lion who is a specialist monster slayer.
The Lion is absolutely a top tier fighter but Horus, Russ, Sanguinius, Curze and Angron are all his equals up there. Possibly Jagetai or even Fulgrim (despite his image) too.
So yeah Corvus was wrong but I dont think Russ is Lion's only equal. Sanguinius probably beats Lion in fact, he's the living weapon. Lion is more a complete warrior commander on all levels.
Lion has the Emperor’s shield
@@TheUncivilizedNation clapped 👏🏻 his 👏🏻 cheeks 👏🏻
Rus and the Lion were the Chaos killers. The Lion was great at it, and did well to remove the worst of his infested hom planet, and Rus's shout likely was meant to destroy chaos. In fact, I believe that's why he was sent after Magnus, even if it wasn't meant to be a death blow.
Rus was never meant to wield the power, but to crush it.
I'd say Guilliman and Sangunius both represent optimism. Guilliman is consistently talking about the far future "where there is only peace," and Sangunius name literally means "comes from unwarranted optimism." (Yes, sanguine can mean blood, but it also means unwarranted optimism. That's the joke with the legion's name.) Not to mention the narrative connection they both have to that. The death of Sangunius represents the death of The Emperor's Dream. Guilliman's resurrection represents its rebirth.
Though you could say this is just a narrative representation. And maybe one of the lost Primarchs was an "empire builder" maybe based off Napoleon? As to why you only mention Guilliman once.
Tbh yea Guilliman got the longest end of the Emperor stick as far as the loyalists are concerned. It’s so funny going from the heresy era ‘Guillimans nascent empire’ to ‘you’re my only hope’ we see what you’re doing big Eagle you’re not fooling anyone
Big E was a jealous boi
Angron was the biggest tragedy, had the nails not been implanted, he would have lead vs Horus
Lets not forget angron wanted to be with his slave family so bad that he charged the emperor and ripped a fully armored custodies in half bare handed. BARE HANDED.
Psykic Foresight: Sanguinius and Konrad Kurze!
Magnus, “Am I a joke to you?”
Yes.- Sanguinius and Kurze probably
8:33 We still see Angrons honour and compassion after he becomes a Deamon. At the siege of terra he offers the defenders at the Space port a chance to surrender after Dorn has sent them there to die without their knowledge.
I think one category you might have missed is the Criticisers. The Primarchs who weren’t afraid to look the Big E in the eye and tell him he’s doing a bad job at something and tell him how to change it.
Despite how much people hate criticism it’s important to note that the best way people can do a job is for someone to just openly say “your method is shit here try it this way”
I think this role is full filled best by Mortarion and Jaghatai Khan.
Jaghatai was known to be the one with the most common sense out of all the Primarchs and was well known for he and Emperor not being on the best of terms relationship wise, he saw the council of Nikea as folly and disobeying it out of hand as well as being the only Primarchs to actually negotiate with Big E on their first meeting.
Mortarion however had his purpose twisted by the hatred he had developed on Barbados as a byproduct by his upbringing and in the end it did turn into Hypocrisy rather than criticism.
I could be wrong and if anyone feels this role belongs to someone else feel free to comment down below.
I feel like theres another archetype id call something like the Generalist. That for example Fulgrim would fall into.
Were hes not considered the best at anything but you have to put him on the top contenders for practically every category.
Dueling? Check
Inspiring leader? Maybe not Lorgar levels of magically charismatic but Check
Crafstmanship? Maybe not Vulkan, but he can definetly rival Ferrus by his own admission, so Check
Scholarship? Not necesarily warp related, but he did improve his planets technology by alot so Check
Statemanship? Maybe not Guilliman levels of administration but he was the one primarch to unify his world only trough diplomacy, so Check
I feel like he gets alot of shit but he lowkey could fit any role
I've also heard that his regeneration was better than his brothers, so he may not be a perpetual like Vulkan, but he has a kind of off brand next best thing.
Eh, in terms of function and roles, I'm pretty sure that Lion'el Johnson has been stated to be the best duelist. It was why he was able to beat demon primarch angron while having been aged
Magnus was created for the sole purpose of being tortured forever on the golden throne, so there only needed to be one of him. Good on him for subverting that fate laid out for him.
I feel like the golden throne wouldn’t nearly be as strenuous if it didn’t act as both a lighthouse and the one thing stopping endless daemons from flooding earth. Said daemon gate was caused by Magnus
Honestly, I believe The emperor gave up on Angron on purpose, because he represents something The emperor doesn't need. But, what do you guys think?
The Emperor (& Malcador) believed they could return the Primarch after their death.
This means the Emperor pushed Angron to fight in the Reunification Wars until he was near death (by the butcher's nails) because Big E was on a short timeline.
Yes, because Angron put the lives of those he cared for LESS than his desire to save.
He chose to die with them as one unit than to save them as their savior. Angron needed to only join with the Emperor and command his legion, consequences be damed.
@@Technoanima No wonder, why Angron betrayed against his father.
Jimmy Space is to be nice not the biggest fan of defiance. Angry Ron said no and needed to be punished, the 50 gladiators could have been saved no problem but because Angron defined big E he let them die.
@lukeBryen2 The emperor was getting rid of his emotions, just to save humanity and Angron representing one of them.
Gulliman has always had middle child vibes
In 40k he still hasn't changed much. He is still keeping secrets
Alpharius has a built in redundancy, Omegon....
Crazy that Corvus didnt rate Lion against Angron and then Lion comes back and molly wops Angron with hardly half the trouble Sanguinius did. This is also against a demon Angron thats had 10k years to fester in his power while El Money was still a bit stiff from his extended nap time.
It might be because Corvus and Lion didn’t interact much pre-heresy
Probably because the Lion didn’t have the Emperor’s shield and Angron could still form coherent thoughts during the Heresy.
It’s called bad writing
@@podrickfookinpayne2329Isn't it in the Arks of Omen series that when Angron gives a big W to Chaos by destroying the pseudo-Astronomican thingy, the explosion obliterates him and for a few moment, he feels what the sweet release of death would feel like? Doesn't that make 40K-era Angron a suicidal depressed dude that doesn't know what else to do than keep going? And he gives the Lion a run for his money in that state? Pre-Daemon Prince Angron must have been scary to fight. Also, the Lion wasn't just waking up if I recall correctly, he had already found some of the Fallen and made them repent and join him.
8:45
We need an animation of him walking along the fields, picking up a skull that he knows was someone close to him.
And have the davy jones quivering lip at the locket moment, before the nails replace his melancholy with hatred and rage
In the new codex for dark angels it mentions that Lion can sort 'forest walk' and even bring people with him. He can travel to different planets with it. and he can apparently also stand in a room and be unoticed when he's watching over his various successor chapters. Why he spies on them is not told but apparently he can do this and be unnoticed until he wants to be.
Dorn and Gulliman had larger legions because they absorbed the legions of the fallen primarchs preheresy. Malcador erased the memories of both primarchs at their own request
What if Angrons Butchers Nails are like a sort of master storage device that stores the memories and souls of his dead warriors.
Then, whenever another Space Marine is implanted with Butchers Nails, they get the version that accepts a download of sorts from the World Eaters collective memories.
Also, what if Angrons psychic powers would have been a sort of “inspire to brotherhood” type thing?
So what, they all have
1 Primary Aspect
That which they are best at, say Siege warfare
2 Secondary Aspect
That trait they are a substitute for, say Fortification
3 Adopted/Learned Aspect
Personal experience that may subvert their genetics, say cold Patience
It would be interesting to chart this all out and see what the missing primarchs would likely cover.
The Lion might be the best duelist of all Primarchs. After all, he has defeated 3 Primarchs in single combat: Russ, Kurze and demon Angron...
He didn't beat Russ. He did prove he has less self control though.
I feel like this is more like redundant personalities whereas Big E would be more concerned with redundant jobs.
I would have said:
Vulkan & Ferrus Manus : Forgemaster
Lion El Johnson & Horus : Warmaster
Rogal Dorn & Perturabo : Siegemaster
Alpharius & Corvus Corax: Spymaster
Fulgrim & Lorgar: Culturemaster
Sanguinius & Konrad Curze: Scryermaster
Mortarion & Angron: Attritionmaster
Jaghatai Khan & Leman Russ: Executionmaster
Roboute Guilleman & REDACTED: Savantmaster
Magnus & REDACTED: Thronemaster
I always viewed the Lion as the Emperor's Paladin, his guardian against the dark threats that were out there and his bulwark against Chaos.
The Emperor bet the house on Perturabo
I accidentally did three with perturabo but honestly he was kind of just a jack of all trades
Also Fulgrim could be acknowledged as standing out in a couple more categories beyond finesse fighter. Charismatic leader, craftsman, innovator, civilization builder etc
I see aspects of Lorgar, Sanguinius, Vulkan, Perturabo, Guilliman in his proclivities
can we say gulliman is a redundancy to the emperor
I say Guilliman is a redundancy to Malcador, Sanguinius fits better as a second emperor
@@NP3GA yeah, at some point malcador was running the empire
That sounds like some reverse psychology anti Guilliman talk. Directly comparing him to the Emperor to cause dissent.
I feel like Girlyman and Perty functioned as back ups for so many different situations because they were two that the big E would have used the most (Minus Magnus) after the war. Both of them were brilliant when I came to logistics and both would have been essential perty (for infrastructure and construction) and Girly (Logistics and politics)
I would argue Leman Russ and Angron are the redundancy match. Loyalty and animalistic traits. Had Angron not had the nails, he could have been a very effective attack dog.
The Lion is definitely should get a nod in charisma. His first observed meeting with Horus made everyone present kneel to him. He has the kingly aura that only the Emperor has.
I guess, the differentiation there is that the Lion himself isn't actually able to move people with his words like the others. He has a great aura but he isn't able to lead and communicate with his lessers.
If I remember correctly, he often conferred the role of communication to Luther.
22:29 : Don't you mean Lorgar?
Sure Magnus knew more at the time of the heresy, but he lacked the wisdom of Lorgar to understand it, in its entirety.
"None of the Primarchs were disposable, per se"...
The Primarchs of the II and XI Legions would beg to differ! 💀😱😬
Well that is up for debate. I personally believe that their death was a hard choice and their deaths did hamper the emperor in some way. Heck everyone was extremely bothered by their deaths.
The 11th primarch probably fell to Malal/Malice(or at least that’s my headcanon) and as such had to be killed.
I’m not sure about the 2nd Primarch but if Sanguinius claims from the book Fear to tread were to be believed then he probably fell to a gene flaw along with the rest of his legion and had to be culled.
@@lachlanevans5013
No, of course! I agree entirely. I was being flippant for a cheap laugh!
@@TheLiberChaotica okay fair enough
They are multi layer redundant with each other, not just one for one. You could make a dozen different lists pairing them off your way. Great video and video idea.
1:00 i call dips on this
World eaters without angron not only would be good but better than ever
guilliman and the khan, the only two functional adults
I always thought the Ultramarines and the Emperor’s Children were redundancies, both Legions are generalists and their Primarchs are skilled diplomats
Russ can be compared with a lot of other primarchs. With his penchant for aggressive fighting he could be compared to Horus, for his skill in single combat he could be compared to the Lion, for his swift and decisive action along with rationally deceptive barbarism, he could be compared to the Khan. There was only two primarchs he believed could beat him and those were Conrad because of his madness and wild nature and Sanguinious for his sheer awesome power. He was a duelist, a hunter, and likely designed as the Emperors tool to subjugate, incapacitate, or destroy his other sons.
Angron really got unlucky with his planet tbh... Swap Guilliman from Ultramar and it would have been the ultramarines getting the nails into them.
Vulkan killing an Aeldari child
"Lol" says Kurze
"LMAO" says the Night Lords
Missing primachs? I can give you a trait for the lost ones, at least one of them probably was obsessed with logistics, like g-man. As some others pointed out, Magnus also doesnt have similar, so one of the lost ones also has to be master of the warp.
Compassion is surely Vulkan and the Raven Lord
More good stuff liking the channel development keep it up!
Just when I thought Lore-tubers were running out of original ideas for videos……. Thanks man, great listen.
my headcannon is that magnus' counterpart was either the 2nd or the 11th just because he was the only uber mega alpha ++ psyker. It would explain why malcador and emps were so desperate to get magnus to not betray as they allready dissapeared the other option.
I've been drawing these lines of redundancies layered on redundancies for a while now, and I was so excited when I saw you had released this. Looking at the clues it really makes me wonder more about where the lost primarchs would have landed, especially with the thought of Magnus being the one to sit on the Golden throne when Big E completed the webway project. Because while Russ is gifted in that regard would he be able to power it to the degree Magnus would have been able to, makes me speculate the physically powerful primarch may have fallen under sway of the Rangdan, with another legion similar to say the Dark Angels, having to be mobilized to wipe them out, then subsequently being erased to destroy any knowledge gained for Marine on Marine combat. Woo, rant I'm sorry. x.x
18.37 Fulgrim was up there in the charm, didn't he bring accross an entire planet with a dozen space marines, with a certain fabius bile in tow, not sure if even horus or lorgar managed that, more redundancy
Konrad: He just does exactly what I do!
Corvus: But better.
only thing that I'd say about this is about the "Though" category, which I think is a 3 way tie between perty, morty and vulkan.
Yeah, Vulkan just tanked his way through Magnus psychically obliterating him over and over again. Fulgrim also had a hell of a healing factor.
I'm kinda new to the lore, but for all the vieos i saw, is somewhat clear that angron and sanguinus went to opposite situations from what they are created for. Angron was create to be the mroe empathetic and Sanginus (and if si canon the angell protytipe thing i read) sounds more whas built to be the wardog of the imperium ( the blood curse is not a bug but a feature and everything), but their experiences after they got warped molded than to the oppposite situations
Started watching the vid. I'm guessing Angron is the same with Vulkan? I heard Angry Ron was supposed to be a really nice dude before the angy nails
(I was right)
Here are what I think the Primarchs are for
WarMaster:
Lion
Horus
Legislatior:
Guilliman
Dorn
Enforcer:
Russ
Alph/Omg
Face (The face of the IOM):
Sanguinius
Fulgrim
Assassin:
Corex
Curze
Ones take control of the Mechanicus:
Manus
Perturabo
Anti-Demon/warp:
Mortarian
Khan
Battery for the Golden Throne:
Magnus
Logar
Soemthing to do with morailty:
Vulkan
Angron
LION: Not the only one who can beat ANGRON brother
Gman-Fulgrim = diplomats
Dorn-Perturabo = builders
Magnus-A/O = knowledge seekers
Sanguinius-Angron = attack dogs
Lion-Horus = leaders
Corax-Curze = spies
Jaghatai-Leman = hunters
Ferrus-Vulkan = craftsmen
only Mortarion and Lorgar that have no contingency but maybe those are the 2nd and 11th
Magnus-Mortarion= psyker. Like Angron, Morty was broken and redundant when found. More useful as a destroyer than the resources necessary to fix him.
hard not to consider lorgar a knowledge seeker, you know since he did all that chaos pilgrimage thing
Forbidden tech/dark age of tech primarchs was always one of my favorite theories. The difference between ferrus and vulkan was one would make sick ass weapons and and the other would just be making impossible orbital space laser defense arrays, a tiny teleporter that could take you halfway across the galaxy or a stick that shoots an aging beam. Like ferrus and perturabo are the weapon smith's. Vulkan in the corner turning bandanas into a time machine
I like to imagine what a group project would look like between Perturabo, Ferrus, and Vulkan.
Perturabo: Comes up with the overall design/blueprints
Vulkan: Provides the materials which would be of the highest quality
Ferrus: Adds in techno magic to do odd stuff
Angron was not a curve ball, he loved his fellow gladiators deeply and Emperor Chris's failure to save them too lead to Angron's fall. If Emperor Chris had saved Angron and the gladiators the world eaters would probably be a loyal a legion...a fricking dangerous legion to rival the wolves and blood angels but still loyal.
One of the best wh channels, greetings from Brazil!
16:16 they are so similar, that when I first got into the lore I thought, that they where the same caracter at first
Horus is just super jacked Homer Simpson, of course people loved him
Damn didn’t see angron and vulkan as similar till this video. Thanks for the enlightenment
I'm pretty sure that the best two swordsmen amongst the primarchs are said to be the Khan and the Lion.
Perty was denied making the imperial palace cause unlike Dorn who cares about human lives perty doesn't
I think there are nuances beyond simple redundancy that are fun to think about in terms of the Emperor's intended roles for the Primarchs. For example, it's well established that foresight isn't simply seeing the future or having knowledge of exactly what's going to happen or anything like that. I think it's fun to think about Sanguinius and Konrad Curze not as redundant because both possessed the gift of foresight, but as similar and complimentary. Sanguinius' foresight may have been intended to be an optimistic view of future events and Curze may have been intended to be a pessimistic view, both views valuable in giving counsel to the Emperor, who possessed his own vision of the future.
27:08 i roll my eyes so far back in my head i meet the gaze of the little goblin that lives in my skull and drives me like a mech. he nods his head, unable to believe this shit either
sometimes feel like the emperor know about the emperor know about the chaos gods will try to take some...and sometimes feel like he helped... think about mortarion and angron... with some had a friendly competition... other... mortarion could easily help him Stealthily... improve the respirator or send someone to help the fight without mortarion knowing... same with angron let him fight his rebellion help so he doesn't die... the emperor could mix in a army and look like a normal guy and you wouldn't know
Aw sweet, it's the Twin Primarch theory-
Wait, this isn't Arthur Bones' channel
This is a great concept and a great video!
You are spot on regarding Malcador's "redundancy", plans, with plans, with backups, with backups.
I think that 1-to-1 redundancies aren't really the way it works either, just as you said.
Some primarchs are extreme specialists, like Magnus.
Some primarchs are "meant to guard the hearth" while others are march wardens.
The 7th was clearly meant to guard the hearth.
The primarchs' and their legions' roles (which are linked) are more important than their specific specialisms however.
Guilliman is a march warden. Even the name "Ultramar" hearkens to "Outremer", the furthest of the realm.
Guilliman's talents are a reflection of what role he was created to fill, not the other way around.
On the fringes on Imperial Space, logistics are key. He builds empire because that's what you do on the border.
He is a civilizer because it is necessary to maintain order on the fringe.
This multi-talented teir set helps explain how some primarchs seem to have many abilities while others do not.
Dorn is a great builder, he is enduring, steadfast, resolute, a great defender and siege master. He is supremely ordered and although not an innovator, he still practices excellent gamesmanship.
Perturabo IS an innovator, but he's also prone to depression, immaturity, rage, and getting played (Fulgrim style).
The Lion, as stated in his primarch novel, was the archetype upon which all his other brothers were based.
He, as of his primarch novel, had never lost a battle or a fight according to the narrator.
Magnus regarded him as a scholar. He choked off high level psykers simply through the power of will.
It is stated in several books that he was the expert hunter (Unremembered Empire, Angels of Caliban, his primarch novel).
Apparently, between his first and second duels with the Krave, he learned to resist their kinetic force psyker attacks.
In his fight with Russ, he disarmed him in the opening moments easily, considering the fight over.
He tricked Fateweaver, repaired the Invincible Reason's warp core, defeated Curze twice, and conquered more worlds than any 2 of his brothers combined.
He thought like his father. He enforced the will of his father, even knowing what he wanted without having to speak to him.
He seemed to have a share in all the gifts of his brothers.
Why did he get all of these talents?
The 1st was made to be alone, to be sufficient to any task, which is not true of any other legion to such an extent.
The 13th also has a similar capacity, but not to such an extent.
Horus was a great general and figurehead, but the 16th would never be able to defeat the 1st.
This is all to say that they fill roles and have skills and inclinations to different degrees to accomplish those roles.
A nice surprise and a lovely way to wake up on my Saturday to do some art and listen to this video really excellent work. I do have one question as you describe your Home life in a previous video. I wondered how you managed to get such good audio where do you record, have a great weekend. All the best brother.
i think you missed an importsnt category, the diplomat/politician. both fulgrim and horus are shown to use diplomacy often, and are quite good it at
Didn't the Ultramarines have the most peaceful compliances? With those two coming in behind them I think?
That family guy edit was amazing
According to the napkin where the emperor scribbled his plans Guilliman was supposed to fuck up eldar just like Vulkan, but he forgot to ad "up" in the notes.
Could you not lump Fulgrim into the craftsman redundancy? I mean, he did make forge breaker
Corvus, Alpharius, and Konrad in a twerk off, who's winning?
Konrad, because he would likely have a cloak of several flayed butts.
THE THUG HAUNTER
THE ASS THAT BROKE NOSTRAMO'S CRUST
Corvus
Alpharius would be forgettable and Konrad is rather thin compared to the others so he probably doesn't got too much cake
when I heard disposable I was like, welp Peter Turbo will be that, iron within iron without
RIP PEANUT BUTTER TURBO
The one true middle child@@livefromtheblacklibrary
I believe the two lost legions were Lorgar's equivalent and a Magnus one.