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The Easy Way To Play 11:8 (Shifting Gravity Centers)
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- čas přidán 16. 03. 2021
- Time Consuming Ep #39: Shifting Gravity Centers.
Rhythmic music notation can be scary. Not "Sharon hates my lasagna so much thus I need to find a place to crash tonight" scary, but scary.
The concept I discuss in this video is slowly being used by more and more musicians and It's time we have a name for it.
Special thanks to Gabriela Goni for the subtitles!
The songs I'll break down in the next couple of weeks will all have a version of this concept in them. So stay tuned, and join the party!
Link to my Patreon page:
/ yogevgabay
Lior Ozeri socials:
CZcams: / 1988lior
Instagram: / liorozeribass
Facebook: / liorozeri
HUGE HUGE thanks to the amazing Sharon Renold for all the help in production, after effects, thumbnails and being awesome.
And lastly, HUGE thanks to Omer Gabay, my brother, for all the tremendous production help!
Join my mailing list! I'll be sending these to you right when they're ready.
mailchi.mp/836...
Spotify playlists:
The "Time Consuming" playlist has all songs covered in the channel.
open.spotify.c...
The "Time Consuming Suggestions" playlist has all the suggestions I got from you guys in the comments, plus a bunch of options I've put in.
Some of them may not have polyrhythms, and I'll delete them slowly once I go over it all!
open.spotify.c...
This video is obviously just the beginning of this concept, and there's a lot more to it. If you'd want to dive deeper, feel free to contact me at gabayyogev@gmail.com
If you have recommendations for songs for this channel, send them over!
gabayyogev@gmail.com
Thanks for watching, Yogev
Instagram: @yogev.gabay.haorginal
www.yogevgabay...
Intro by Sharon Renold (@sharonrenold on Instagram) and myself
Intro music by Shwesmo (@shwesmo on Instagram)
#musiceducation #polyrhythms #shiftinggravitycenters
5+5+3 you say....
I did say that.
And unless you say otherwise, I'll be sticking to my 'Kinda 13 over 8 but not really' guns!
And while I may or may not have your attention, any chance for a short chat?
Would love to see you two collaborate on something. Get Ben Levin in there and you'll have my three favorite music youtubers. So..... did Adam get back to you?
Feels like some Animals as Leaders songs are coming !
Arithmophobia
Cant burn the lasagna, my guy. Her rage is real 😂
I think I've missed some of the awesomeness of the vid when my brain started to pour out my left ear...
Great video, sick jams, awesome concept... love every bit of it!
My man! Thanks !
[8:19] "I do have a theory about why the 3 works, but the 4 doesn't"
It's simple math, and you already said so:
[6:18] "...while we keep the ratios intact"
This is the key.
When 3 is the long and 2 is the short beat, the ratio is 3:2, and 3/2 = 1.5.
When 4 is the long and 3 is the short, the ratio is 4:3, and 4/3 ~= 1.33, which is pretty close, but is a bit different. In numbers, there's about a 0.17 difference.
When it is 5:4 though, 5/4 = 1.25, which is not so much of a 1.5 anymore.
However, with 5:3, 5/3 ~= 1.67, so again it's about a 0.17 difference from 1.5, just like with 4:3, but in the other direction.
So it's really about keeping the RATIO the same (not only the "long long short" pattern), to get the same feel, or making it pretty similar, to get a pretty similar feel.
If you would do 6 + 6 + 4, the ratio would be 6:4 between the long and the short beat, and 6/4 is also 1.5, so it would be exactly the same as 3 + 3 + 2. Except if you think in terms of eighth notes, then it would be half as fast (or two times slower). But changing the eighth notes to sixteenth notes, or doubling the tempo results in the same exact rhythm.
this is pretty freakin cooooool
This version of your upload has a lot tighter narrative than the previous upload - I think there's a lot of interesting things that could be said about the traditional "western" style music notation and it's shortcomings (or, the mindset it "enforces" upon composers and players, at least) vs other kind of rhythmic denotation systems, but I think it was the right shout to leave that for a separate video at some point.
I have to say, I agree.
It did take like 10 hours to redo, but I think it's worth it.
Some people said some VERY true things about the previous version, things that were conveyed that I haven't even noticed so I decided to redo and I'm happy you appreciate it, Seriously!
@@YogevGabay Huge improvements! Definitely much better now. :) Also, hold on tight to that bass player of yours, he's a BEAST!
@@YogevGabay The fact that you're willing to take down a video, then work 10 straight hours to make it better, because some people in the comments pointed out ways to make it better, say so much about your commitment to making the best possible quality and trustworthy content! Great work!
@@MrGul Much appreciated! and yes that guy is a MONSTER. Wait till his solo album comes out. There are some craaaaaazy stuff there!
@@iau Thanks Iau!!
I swear, it's like Strong Bad is explaining cool rhythmic effects
I recently wrote a song in 13/16 grouped 5+5+3 in order to make it smoother. And after playing it I wondered why it felt so familiar, until I realized that the subdivision isn't that far from your familiar 3+3+2. In the end I actually calculated where the hits land compared to the 3+3+2 and the difference is really small, you more or less feel it only on the last hit. But that is kind of cool as it combines "familiar" with "wonky".
Cheers
You're videos
ARE.
THE.
BEST.
Not A Millions Yet But, Closer And Closer!
Go Ahead Bro!!!
“The Sky Is Red” by Leprous is in 11/8. Fascinating signature.
If I wasn't subbed already, I'd subbed just because of this video. Yogev, your channel is pure gold.
The reason the 3 works where the 4 doesn't is because ,when keeping respect to the ratios, 3's to 4's and is an incremental difference of 4/3. That transformation to the 2 actually gives 8/3 which is 2.666... (which is why just playing 4 4 3 doesn't actually fit mathematically buttttt 🤷♂️.) Then from 4' to 5's is a 5/4 incremental difference, which applied to 8/3 gives 40/12, ((or 10/3 if you did this transformation from the 2,) which is about 3.3333...). So using 4 doesn't work because 3 is closer to 3.333 than 4 is. Anyway, good shit!
Have you ever heard of Car Bomb? I feel like you could really dive into some mind warping stuff through their tunes 🙌🙌
Dude. OMG. This is incredible; my mind is blown - thank you, sir!
Excellent follow up to David Bruce's video on the rhythms of Tigran Hamasyan.
Love Time Consuming man! Your videos got me through a recent hospitalization and I just wanna say I really like what you're doing here on CZcams! You're a funny guy and a great educator. Thanks for sharing!
Found your stuff the other day, and honestly you've gotten my guitar back in my hands. You're a great teacher, you have a natural gift.
I've been usin these for a year or so now and never known how to communicate these rhythms on paper or with a name. thank you!!
That jam at the end was just phenomenal!
Man, your channel is the best thing happening on CZcams, seriously.
It's everything I've always wanted to see being discussed. I first came across your channel because of the 5 Peace Berklee Indian Ensemble, it was probably the video I watched the most in 2017 hahaha wish I had met you while I was at Berklee man! anyway, cheers! Keep on being awesome! \m/
Epic man thanks !
Utter madlad, you didn’t explain it badly at all, we just kinda missed the plot the last time lmao. Can’t speak for everyone, but for me it was probably just my brain really badly trying to shove it into a corner it already somewhat knew of, rather than just accepting it as a new thing. Appreciate the new video tho!
This is the most eye opening channel for music lol. That totally made sense actually the way you explained it I feel like I just gained a super power
Tigran Hamasyan is very pleased.
Oh... best video ever... thanks
I discovered your videos because of the art of dying video. I absolutely love what you do, and your ability to breakdown (what I assume are) complex things in music into something a guy like me can understand is incredible.
I actually enjoyed the previous edit better, with the subdivisions explanation, I think there is much to learn from the way eastern theory approaches rhytm. In any case, I appreaciate the content you are puttin up, keep up the great work!
I love how you emphasized listening to the clave for "what it is" and that really really makes subdividing stuff like that so much easier
It's hard to grasp at first, but `i think it's helpful !
epic indeed, i found ur channel past week and already watched like 12 viedos or more. gr8 work
you deserve more followers!
Excellent
Awesome.
Fantastic!!!
This concept is so cool! Exellent video, and great playing too.
awesome!!! thank you guys
I think this reworked video is a bit easier to follow than the other one! Nice work!
Ooooh, I can feel the stank face forming muscle by muscle. Great video, looking forward to see future videos with these types of grooves! And it's really nice to see you putting it into context with your examples!
amazing thanks man!
First, I doubt I'd ever have thought of this approach. I'm ultra-impressed.
The thing is, the statement 'it doesn't fit' means 5 in the time of the 3 in the normal clave at the same time has clashes, hence your 'blur' which is the mind working to resolve a conflict, and the fact of the clave ie., groove element smooths that out. But I wouldn't want that much going on. What I did was for the extra beats, =ing 11 and 13 in the time of 8 8ths as you put it, was count 4 against it.
So two things which shouldn't even be happening at the same time _are_ happening: it can be (or is) a 4/4 straight pulse which sounds like 11/8 or 13/8 in execution. It flips the crossrhythm on its head. For me: ie. the normative for me was always Zappa doing the nested thing against a slow 4 or 3 or 6. Thank you for this.
Brilliant video. I’m really impressed with your ideas! 👍🏻🏴
I think this was your best vid yet. Loved it.
11:47 I could totally imagine it in some f-ed up Jazz Black Metal like Shining (Nor) or Imperial Triumphant. It sounds indeed epic and full of tension.
Really wondering which songs you want to talk about after explaining this concept! ;)
Don't have a recording yet, but... yeah, my band wrote a black metal song woth the 5+5+4 groupings in the span of an 8/8 measure
That 5,5,3 is tasty. In fact the whole progression is tasty. But as you said, the time signature is technically flawed, and while you can't necessarily hear it while listening casually, when I try to dissect and play a similarly odd phrase, i end up improvising a fix that works but is wrong. Talk about a headache. It's nice to understand why that is.
The 5, 5, 3 at 11:47 really worked
you just blow my mind! keep up the good content!
I really like the video and the channel and the drumming
Wow!! It reminded me so much of animals as leaders! Great as always, you should make another video with your polyryrhmic lasagna reciep 🤔🤔
It's the recipe for how to burn it. That's the only one I follow
way fun!
Hi and thanks for the vid! Math teachers (like me) will get mad at you at 5:36 if you say: change the numbers from «3 versus 2» to «4 versus 3» while keeping the ratio intact!
Well, we're musicians, so "approximately" is a very legit answer in our circles hhahahaha
@@YogevGabay Math teachers around the world will be very happy with «keeping approximately the ratio intact». Thanks!
Very interesting this is definitely getting into virgil donati Territory.
He is really good at Manipulating time please do more his work .
Great drumming by the way you have good control and Technique
Epic. Now I must go and partake in some Mr. Bungle 🤘😣
Your videos are the best! And this one...completely epic!
Amazing video, master Gabay
Expected some Lebnia to be mentioned tbh ;)
Wow that rocks so hard! The clave is god.
So sick! You might cover this in future videos, but when you squeeze 11 or 13 sub beats into that pattern are those sub beats even or are the sub beats that fit into the long and short beats slightly different?
I think his point is that it gets hard to tell if they're evenly divided or slightly different. Evenly divided won't line up with the 3+3+2 pattern exactly, but it's pretty close. For 4, 4, 3, if you want to line up with the pattern, you'll get 4:3, 4:3, 3:2-touplets. If you divide evenly, you get an 11:8-touplet. But the notes in the 3:2-touplet are just ~11% shorter than those in the 4:3-touplets, and the notes in 11:8 are somewhere in between. I've written up some sheet music to illustrate this. You'll find it if you search "alternate subdivisions" on musescore.
@@alexandergrep4399 Thanks for the reply. That's what I was thinking too. I guess that's why it sounds better at faster tempos bc at a slower tempo we can pick up those little differences in speed.
Ideally you do the tuplet crossrhythm evenly. So there are clashes. It _is_ doable in a DAW, if it's Cubase or Nuendo: you can set a sub-grid at any number (as well as that number against a dotted value, in which case 5:3:2 (or the inverse) type of things may be made apparent. There is a trick in Logic to get nested tuplets but I'd have to look it up to describe it.
This is amazing, Yogev! Thank you for your content. (:
I feel so dumb😭. There is this song by Sixpence None the Richer called "Puedo Escribir" (Spanish for " I can Write ") which is in 11/8 that I wojld have liked to decipher
Hey man, you should do a video on Car Bomb. They have an absolutely elastic sense of tempo
Cool! Sagat's theme from Street Fighter (SNES) is 11/8 and until this day I cannot understand how to count it.
You make very informative videos, thank you! Interesting to watch and for me every video gives lots to think about. I'm not a musician, but this works as brain puzzles very well. Love it!
Car bomb uses similar writing styles. I believe blackened battery it’s most evident.
ahh YES!! Fucking lior
More Videos with ozeri please!!!
This is so good man wtf...
This was beautiful
Matt Garstka does the same thing in the song Iris with his hihat. He changed the hihat pattern while maintaining the his foot ostinato pattern
Speaking for the math nerds out there, 2, 3, and 5 are Fibonocci numbers. Obviously, that isnt' a requirement, but they represent a very natural ratio, relationships that are extremely common for us to break apart and consume. They're a good-feeling-distance from each other.
I‘m pretty sure the „good feeling“ ratio thing comes from the fact that they are just small numbers. Fibonacci doesn’t really play a role here.
@@toebs_ I don't think the numbers themselves are directly meaningful, but it supports the long v. short relationship in why a 5, 5, 3 works better than 5, 5, 4, even though 3, 3, 2 works.
Makes me wonder if an 8:8:5 would work. Probs not honestly.
"If you take any two Fibonacci numbers that are adjacent to each other, and divide the larger one by the smaller, you'll get an approximation of the golden ratio. The further down the list you go, the more accurate your approximation is."
Remember: when you need to deceive your audience's brain, use a t-shirt like "I may be wrong, but is highly unlikely"
hahahaahhaahh love that shirt
2/3 is 66%, 3/4 is 75% and 4/5 is 80% while 3/5 is 60%. They become too close to being equal is my guess on why it sounds wonky, almost glitchy.
it's back lets go!!
nice vid the only person ive ever heard talk about this is Keita Ogawa from snarky puppy, love the actual examples
I heard some Bilo at the end of that bass guiitar run...
Hey man, love your vids, keep it up!
אחי אתה תותח...מזה הידע המפחיד הזה? ממש גאונות מוזיקלית.
ממש מזכיר את פורטנוי בברקלי
Hey Yogev, I just discovered your channel and I really love it. I don't understand a damn thing you're saying, but it's great, I feel like by watching these I'm building an appreciation for my favorite music. Do you think you could take a look at "Voyage of a Wavering Mind" by In Mourning? I think you'll like it, and I might be wrong but it seems like they're doing something very funky with the rhythm in that song that I don't understand at all. Maybe it's simple, but I have no clue. It's definitely not as complex as Meshuggah.
shawn crowder look like me lol xDDD
btw what IEMs do you use?
Ok that's really cool
Great Job !!
12:28 hahaha
The video was very good Please also show the staff notation of the drums.👍👍
You should do a video on Carbomb! Some hardcore rhythmic patterns and interesting sound ideas!! And every tunes are very interesting!
L A S A N G N A R T
6:00 actually sounds a bit like the avatar series credits song😂
Went looking for this comment lmao
Please do a multi-part series explaining all the major riffs in I by Meshuggah :P
Only issue is that some are randomized. Like there is a pattern that sometimes repeats but they deviate off of it on occasion and it doesnt really have a structure
So sick. Yet again.
Oh you would dig Nik Bärtschs Ronin.
at 6:00 I started dancing to the ATLA outro song!
This gave me those giggles I get when I hear something so new and unusual that I just do not understand and gets me so excited. Those were some incredible jams.
I hear... um ... the preconceptions of western percussion starting to fracture in my head.
Awesome video!, can you analyze the song "Accelerando" by Vijay Iyer Trio please!
Hm, this seems like what Tigran Hamasyan does in a lot of his songs, a kind of new take on the melodic modulation. Could we perhaps be getting the nairian odyssey video soon?
Oh hell yeah. Tigran is one of the reasons this video is up hahahahah
Hey, could you do a breakdown of Sunhead by Plini? The drummer of the band did a short breakdown of it but I would really enjoy your take on it, especially if you go over a method of how to play it/feel it.
That song is pure insanity i just cant get it righ everrr
Niceeee!
Mr Vasilyenko sent me!
Ohhhh that guy is EPIC
👍🥁
totally out of context but....
there´s a Seiko Prospect watch?
WIN
Intentions at 3:45
Dude you gotta cover Trust by Terra IV
I just listened to the song and thought how awesome it would be for you to explain to me wtf is going on over there in the breakdown part :)
Ohh will listen!
@@YogevGabay u da man! Love your stuff and appreciate you even more now that I see you take time to sift through all your comments and respond to your audience!
@@lukatomica2654 I try to as much as I can!
Man that song is cool! A bunch of 5's and 3's.
The main riff is all groups of 5/16 over 4/4.
And at the end they swirch to a cool triplet feel.
Man these guys rock !
@@YogevGabay awesome, thank you very much for this, I find it so cool and fun to Nerd out about this stuff :)
BTW if you enjoyed the song you should check the band Hacktivist, it's the guitarists old band, quite a similar vibe going on. The song Unlike Us should be the first thing to check out.
@@lukatomica2654 Will check!
Will you make a short video for the Patreons to explain why you uploaded this episode twice?! :-)
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Let's just say, I think this one is better :)
I dont get the part that this mathematically doesnt work
I Mean.. you are NOTt trying to fit 11 EVENLY SPACED notes nor 13
What is Going on is (in the 11 notes case) two groups of 4-tuplets and One Group of 3 8ths
And in the 13 notes case, the are two groups of 5 Weird tuplet (a Numbers that makes 5 notes fit in the space of 3 8ths... not sure what would be) and a group of 3 8ths
So the first note in each group would indeed be alligned
Did i miss something?
Sorry if i Didnt make myself clear. English is not May first language
You got it completely right.
When I said it mathematically doesn't work, I meant that it's NOT really 11 even notes in the span of 8 (which is exactly what you said).