The Most Ingenious Turntable from the 1980's - The Legendary Well Tempered Record Player (WTRP)
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- We currently have several of these undergoing various stages of restoration, as well as one listed for purchase here:
skyfiaudio.com/products/well-...
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The engineers who designed this table were REALLY thinking outside the box!!! It would take me a while to be comfortable with the tonearm and plater bearings even though they are perfectly fine and extraordinarily ingenuous!!! Thank you for showing this design in detail! I would love to come for a visit as I live only a mile or so from your location. Thanks again.
That tape was a cheap vibration absorption tape with a good surface adhesion. On my two WT tables, one is The Reference and one is the Records Player, square hole, I took 2 small wood wedges and a rubber mallet and gently tapped between the layers until they seperated. I replaced it with Sorbothane tape 1/8 inch thick, from Amazon, and used a rubber cement on both sides on the Sorbothane to prevent any drift on the panels of the plinth. Amazon also has Sorbothane pads 1/4 inch thick which will work as well. I also drilled about 1/3 third inch in 3 locations on each panel and lose fitted a total of 6 wood dowel pins so the table could be moved without any concern of drift. This made the Record paler as dead and true as my Reference table. This added another level of deep sonic purity to the playback which I have NEVER heard on any table at any price and I have listened to MANY high end tables.
The trick to perfect hole alignment is to put the low layer piece down on a flat surface. I cut 2) 2x4 boards 2' long and screwed the together at the ends while they were vertical. I used a T square to make 100% sure I had a true right angle and braced it up against one corner of the WT base layer. Alternately, you could cut out 4 pieces and form fit it in a rectangle against a non drifted WT table for a perfect fit. .
Then I got 3 quarter" flat washers pads and painted them with thinned, one small drop of isopropyl alcohol, ink from a ballpoint pen cartridge and quickly placed them about 120° apart and with the spindle in the middle section, carefully satt the middle layer down on the bottom section. Then repeat the process for the middle to top layer,
But first, I bisected the ink dots marks now transferred to the table layers with a sharp fine tipped Sharpie marker using a straight edge.
Next, using a sharp ice pick or center punch, make center impressions for drilling. I used drill bit guards so I could only drill down 1/3rd inch. I applied the holes with a little RTV silicone rubber to prevent any direct pin to plinth layer contact.
Next was to apply the Sorbothane runs with a thin layer of rubber cement adhesive on both sides and placed them,
With just a little play between each pin and the holes. and Sorbothane runs laid out, I quickly, sat down the middle section on top of the bottom for a PERFECT FIT. Having a helper at your side so you can check the alignment in both planes helps. Once the middle is sitting on top of the sorbothane and pins you will have a permanent alignment with MUCH better isolation and vibration absorption. Of course, repeat this process with the top layer with wood pins, sorbothane and spindle in place.
My reengineered process can be done in less than an hour and I defy anyone using any table at any price to produce a more realistic and pure tonal experience. My mod can be done for ~$70 or less and is worth 100 times the price. I believe the addition of the sorbothane layers to make most of the improvement I found
Glenn Scott
DSM Labs
Thanks for this tutorial on how to fix the drifting of the layers. I have a hard time visualizing what ou are doing here, however. A video showing each step of your process or a more clearly written step-by-step guide (with photos!) would be most helpful. From what I can understand, you have wood pins connecting each layer here--that is a concern in transmitting vibration between the layers. This is counter to the original design, which is to isolate each layer with Sorbothane.
I had one Classic for years, loved it!
I have never seen this type of record player until now.
Amazing video, thanks.
Firebaugh always recommended putting a half twist in the belt between the platter and motor. Rewiring the arm is tricky, because it's filled with sand.
Nice overview! I have the original Well Tempered Table. It is such a cool design, very unusual and tracks the records quite well. One really minor detail, the belt is meant to have a half-twist between the motor pulley and the platter. Bill Firebaugh says it helps the belt slip off the platter and off the motor pulley smoothly as it rotates, which further reduces flutter. I'll take their word for it 😉!
I have been using a Well Tempered Reference for many years and am very happy with it. It is an unusual looking design, but it works very well.
I have always love these tables. My come into money soon and buy one
Inspired design. I've admired this turntable since it was introduced. In fact, I might like pick one of these up, even an earlier version.
Can I slap some common scientific sense into you ?
Thank you for the information, keep the great videos coming!
Thanks, will do!
Yeah, we need more pools of liquid with three superglued plinths in our hi fi vinyl CZcams collection. Good thing we have our choice of three, I love this channel for a laugh and to waste Daddy's money!!!
@@honkyjesuseternal 😸
@@martinda7446 In general just keep a jar of honey and Arizona Iced Tea near your tonearm.
@@honkyjesuseternal You are very naughty.
😾
😸 (Sorry, I like these cats.. This is my 1 millionth).
Came here to look at different turntables since I got my first one JC Penney MCS 6401.
Crazy that my first record to play was Don Williams greatest just like you tested.
These are the ultimate Douchebag Tables. They are like a sail, they pick up all the negative energy of a dust cover. Dust Covers kill sound, only a tonearm in liquid can kill your enjoyment.
I buy all my Hipster Douchebag Turntables from these cats.
I remember these from back in the day. Great reviews and highly innovative design but at almost 2K 1980 money, was out of my reach at the time. Having recently purchased the Schitt Sol, I can see where they got some of their design elements from after watching your video. Thanks, great video.
Was thinking the same about the sol.
A couple of interesting facts that you may find of interest as Bill Firebaugh was a friend of the shop during the development. He first developed the arm on a Linn LP12, the table did not come till later down the road. Stereo Design, in San Diego was a major Linn dealer & this was by far the favorite combination . The arm is actually the gem of the package. I still have one of my Linn's with the WT arm set up with a dedicated MC mono cartridge, I just love the look of the modern art deco arm sitting on the traditional Linn, it is defiantly a conversation piece. It is still the best I've heard a Linn sound short of a full blown modern Ekos SE tonearm on the Keel sub chassis, keep in mind this a 20k plus rig. And when someone ask Bill Firebaugh, are you a rocket scientist or something, well actually he was.
They look more substantial than what they make today. Materials changed?
That main bearing is something I was going to do, what about the tonearm how much do they sell for and are there any good? how much does a table sell for complete.
ESSENTIALLY,this is a fine turntable.
I have a WT. I love it! It is one of the best Turntables ever made. I think one of the most important features is that the Motor is on its own. The second thing is the Oil based buffer of the Tonearm and the Plate. The same cartige sounds 10x better than at my Thorens 320. So for me it’s sunnclear, that it is 90% the Turntable itself
Setting that tonearm up can be a bear, but nice it’s done it sounds amazing.
Definitely not for people with OCD
My dad had a turntable he purchased between 1980-1983. It was state of the art. It had a lighted checkerboard edge and the distinguishing characteristic was that you would swipe your fingertip down the metal bars on the front right to start the turntable. I’m dying to know the make/model. Any ideas?
Over time that fluid will get full of dust, do you have to replace it every so often?
I'm sure some may think the Tonearm arrangement to be ... strange. But a UK tonearm- the 'Mayware' used a Uni-Pivot (a conical point). It was "stabilized" by 4 MERCURY pools at the Base ! Each terminated, One Conductor of the Four (Hot & Ground) needed for 2 channels.
Where can you find parts for the classic model??
Reggae/soul music me play. My Garrard 401(SME arm) plays it beautifully through my 4 (2 pairs) of leak sandwich 600s amplified by my sansui AU 717. SYSTEM HEAVY WARM ROUND AND CLEAN.
I have one of these, I would love to change the fluid. Do you have a source?
Ingenious..
Had fantastic results adding a WTL to an LP10. Well be adding their LTD tonearm to an inprogress Thorens TD-124.
All the ones I have seen have a golf ball as the paddle in the silicone bath, when did that come in?
I've heard Well Tempered decks a few times, there is an obvious lack of rumble, that weird bearing design really works.
That started with the Chinese versions I believe. Maybe around 12 to 15 years ago.
I was fortunate enough to own not one, but two of these incredible 'tables during my high-end audio hay days. Right up through the mid to late 2000's - even my then $8k Esoteric CD player couldn't compete with it. Friends were always shocked & amazed that a 'record player' could sound that good...was literally like listening to the master tape, provided you had the cartridge and other ancillary components to match.
How did you keep the damping fluid clean? Did dust and particles in the air not continually "rain" down into the fluid cup? If so, how often did you have to clean or replace the fluid? Thank you.
I've had mine for over twenty years! I have a hinged lid on my unit, but still, dust in the silicone bath is just not a problem. You can't see if dust is getting in there and if it is, it just doesn't affect it.
@@oronmendel2451 I think just let the dust get in it. There is little one can do but it doesn't seem to really effect anything.
Is a Technics SL 1700 worth a CLA? I listen to mostly classical and have a Dynakit 70.
I adore the dust on this vinyl.
Hi, can you please help me with some advice badly needed ? I am trying to find out if the round pod motor in the Classic is AC or DC ?I am bringing one over from the USA to the UK and the difficulties with the elec supply seem complex but less so if it’s a DC motor .
I was thinking too of perhaps replacing the motor and PSU with an Origin Live DC motor and PSU .would this be a problem and would it work ? The main issue is ac or dc though . Any advice is very much appreciated , thank you in advance
From where I can purchase this
Hi , can you please tell me if the round style motor in the Well Tempered , is an AC or DC motor ? I know they use DC in contemporary models but I can’t seem to find out about these earlier round motor design . I am grateful for any info you can give me ?
Modern Turntable designers: So, we isolated the motor using same vibrational-isolating bearings SpaceX uses to isolate key components on the Dragon capsule, only we partnered with Mitsubishi's medical arm to codevelop a bearing based on that used in their MRI machines to...
These guys, 35 years ago: We just made the motor a seperate piece. *shrug*
I had the last version of WT (Classic) for nine years. Than I find out Lenco L75 and Audio Technica AT-1010 tonearm...
What us the size of the belt
Why doesn't that viscous fluid make the tonearm dig into records on the rising side of a warp and lose contact on the declining side?
If you use the record clamp on the slightly dished WT acrylic platter, most warp is flattened out. Back in the late 1980's early 1990's there was a product named the "non-mat," a rubber insert made to fill in the dish of the original platter, for those who could't "philosophically" accept that the dish changed the VTA angle ever so slightly. I do[idn't have enough records so warped as to care... and invested in the better black platter and spindle upgrade for both my original WTT and WTRP.
When I use mine I prefer the gold ball (the newer ones use a golf ball in the fluid) to only be in the fluid about 1/4" to 1/2". You're right in asking this question. The fluid makes the arm react very slowly compared to traditional arms that is why you can't get this arm if you're very finicky and worry about the settings a lot. If you want 100% correct overhang forget it. The designer says not to worry about every little thing and set the arm up as best as you can in the general vicinity and just play it. I think he is right. The sound is very nice when set up right.
Please tell me you sell the fluids for the table. I have a WTT classic and need to replace the fluids(tonearm+turntable spindle). I'd appreciate it very much. Thank you. I live in the Chicago area.
Thanks again.
Get STP for the arm pot and 5W20 or 5W30 synthetic oil for the platter bearing. Many found STP a bit less dense for the arm pot.
Thank you so very much.
FYI: the silicone fluid can be found on eBay - Get the one with viscosity rating of 100,00. Fill pot approximately 1/3 full. Clean up any spills with Witch Hazel. BTW: dealers at audio shows use honey in the pot, since it's water soluble and easy to clean for quick departure..
@@keithperry602 I added more info above - Also, the 5W20 or 5W30 synthetic oil is for the platter bearing ONLY. - 5W30 is a little thicker. Don't forget to add the half twist to your neoprene belt!
I am retired from a large Printer Mfg. Silicone oil can be sourced from an office supply dealership that sells office copy machines. And yes, it is that viscous.
I own a mint condition Denon DP-60L - bought it from the first or second batch they sent to our shores. I've both arms and the original shipping box. Hasn't been connected for about 30 years. Is it worth anything? Thanks!
Nope.
@@carmenandthedevil2804 Why not?
Best advice is to search eBay, via Advanced Options, and "Sold".
They all look like music Hall turntables.
Music Hall with a tonearm in goo. Helps the level and the grams per drip (GPD).
Very intriguing design! I have to wonder though, how exactly does the fluid work? Do you replace it every once in a while? And if so which one(s) would you use? Do any other viscosities work or only that specific one? And if it's not supposed to be replaced how exactly does that work for shipping?
Well tempered were trying to re-invent the wheel with this tone arm. But in reality, as with similar designs, it never realy worked any better than a conventional tonearm. The theory behind it is sound but in practice it was a complicated alternative to the norm.
What are you looking for on price Fernando ?
Please visit the link in the description to see the listing on our website, thanks!
@@SkyFiAudio How about 5 million hipster douchebags?
Wis he had the reference on the side to shine
I would constantly be yelping "don't touch that turntable!" to anyone that came within 2 ft of it...
haha, for sure. It does seem kinda delicate.
Back in 199...something I had a Roksan (Better than the LP12 at that time oh and I live in the UK) anyway can't remember the history but I put a WT arm on my Roksan which was the lovely cognoscenti piano black marble effect with up rated bearings and power supply. At that time I had a very credible valve, sorry you Americans lol, tube amp with a pair of TDL speakers. The original arm was a SME 309 which I hated it was just awful. Anyway I remember when the turntable was reinstalled in my system it was like getting a new turntable only x3 the price. First thing I noticed was the bass. TDL's well mine went down to 20Hz but I never got that with the SME or it never felt like it. With the WT arm I got all of it but tight fast and then there was the imaging it was seriously holographic back to front and sides imaging. Honestly I shed a tear that day. It was almost religious :-)
Yeah and you put the tonearm in a pool of liquid because you were totally tripping. Garth, it is me, Tonearm Tony. Now, lets buy these products and keep our tonearms in liquid like some friends?
Music hall 7 & 9 turntables have similar design
Where is the strobe light 😁
How much are well tempered turntable?
Please visit our website for full details.
Well, you detach the hinges. Keep cats away with knives for a dust cover. Then, you find a pool of hipster liquid to douse the tonearm in. Believe it or not, I don't have my current tonearm in a vat of liquid fidelity!!!! Then, comes the baking. You have to bake the damn records to achieve Tonearm Vat Fidelity (TVF). Only use SkyFi Audio Ovens. Cheers.
Really cool design, especially the tonearm, but I never got how the Anti Skate works.
They should really have just run 2 to 4 screws through all of the plinth layers from the bottom so the drifting issue doesnt happen over time.
Theres no audio issue with a lid however, as long as its kept down while playing. You would need to listen at deafening volumes to make the lid actually interfere while up, and its been tested that lid down even benefits the sound in that case as it protects the tonearm and record from reflected vibrations.
By turning the vertical silver wheel, you can adjust the spacing between the two bars holding the monofilaments, and this will vary the amount of twist that generates the anti-skate force. Bars closer together = less anti skating, further apart = more anti skating.
Imagine a playground swing seat supported by two chains to a bar above. If you slide the chains together on the bar, the swing seat will rotate quite easily. If you spread the chains widely apart, the seat will have a strong force trying to return to the straight ahead position.
Yeah, putting your tonearm in liquid should be mandatory for any mentally ill audiophile. Really makes the vinyl sound smoother, amirite?
@@honkyjesuseternal Someones jealous.
@@leon9021 Yeah, I wish I had a well of juice to put my tonearm's nuts in. Sounds like a great idea.
@@honkyjesuseternal Im sure an engineer such as yourself would know.
I made a 78rpm pulley that slips onto the existing pulley= 3 speeds
PS The only thing they didn't have which would have ensured beating Linn at their own game at that time was any sort of quality control. None. I would have to rebuild every deck when one was sold.
Can honey be used instead of silicone fluid? On the other hand it may attract flies :-)
Or Winnie the Pooh
Well, it is none of your bees wax but I always use SKiFiHigh Fluid. When I play a crunchy jam I just put a few ounces more of fluid in there, then take it out later or feed it to the mice. Always have a few pounds of silicone honey for the best tonearm dip, you dip!
Hey channel yourself!
I would argue the most ingenious turntable of the 80s was the Pink Triangle. It introduced a whole plethora of firsts in turntable design from acrylic platter, aerolam chassis, inverted jewelled bearing etc...I would suggest it is the only one of a small handful of turntables that deserve genius associated with them.
(PT was started in 1979..but I guess it was just about 1980..)
True. PT even their early models still sound good.
@Marten Dekker Sure, I just didn't like the Well Tempered design so I'm biased..😺 I knew Arthur and Neil as I worked in the industry in London for many years.
@Marten Dekker Aha! I'm lucky enough to have heard plenty of wonderful decks and was never that taken with the WT..But then I also know that many things can influence the final quality..I set up customers tables for ten years at a high end London dealer and the best I heard by far, and really the only one that was beyond extraordinary was the combination of Air Tangent, Kiseki Lapis Lazuli and Goldmund Reference.. But then at today's prices the box the Goldmund came in cost more than an LP12.
Talking damping I also saw the first Cranfield Rock which was a massive thing that led to the Townsend Rock, now that was clever too. The other deck that is amazing for engineering was the Lux PD300 and other vacuum platter Lux models. They were satellite and spacecraft quality.
@Marten Dekker PS I will revisit the WT designs. I'm sure you are right. One thing I learnt..Listen. That is quite a recommendation and I will not take it lightly.
PPS Do you remember the rest of the system with the WT that you liked so much?
I must admit, I never have any issues with molecules interfering with my sound quality via my hinged dust cover opened up and behaving as a sail.
But I have such empathy for those that do. Poor poor molecular interference victims.
it looks like if the ps4 pro was a turntable :P
The "t" in "often" is SILENT.
I got the Silicone on the platter and it looks like a mess
Ecco è meglio lasciarlo negli anni in cui lo usavano!
Holy crap ..... Really ! Let me guess, it takes a 10W40 and needs changing every 50000 revolutions. BLING !
So, real-time adjustable azimuth at the expense of unmitigated inner groove distortion due to the straight tonearm.
droll!
Nice.
I have a tonearm damper which uses 65,000 CST silicone instead of 100,000.
It's about as gooey as honey is.
100k CST must be like tar.
@Garry Miller Lol nice, is that silicone fluid used in the early Gyrodec too?
@Garry Miller Michell, pronounced like the girls name. No arguments😺 I knew John Michell.
It would have been nice to hear it play, but I didn't like the look of that record warped edge.
None of these are the original version!
right, the original had a golf ball rigtht?
ᴅᴀs ɪsᴛ ᴀᴜᴅɪᴏᴘʜɪʟɪsᴄʜ!
A triumph of overengineering over practicality and aesthetics.
Only a fanatic moron would be nuts enough to spend good money for this junk.
I like how they put a record down on a moving turntable without a thought. Like, "we don't give a shit we are gonna sell these quickly". Never buy a turntable from these cats.
@@MartinSBrown-tp9ji What turntable do you use?
@@alanrogs3990 I have used a dual # 1214 for many years with no problems. It still works great.
I am trying to understand why this thing is a good idea. Looks very fragile and not really something that will workwell for a long time.
With so few moving parts they are quite reliable but yes, fragile.
This is the worst tonearm design ever created. The irregularity of the silicon base will cause the antiskate to constantly fluctuate. The belt drive design is the least accurate drive system because the belt's elasticity and grip changes every 25 hrs of use not to mention environmental temperature and moisture. But you know that already, who's gonna say no to an uninformed customer will to pay you right ?
only fault .......is not musical.... there is no pleasure in listening to
If the arm is sitting too deeply in the fluid I agree but if the arm just rests in the fluid ever so slightly then the sound is much better.
Junk ,just get Technics Slq2
You don't realize how wrong you actually are.
Get thing out