Controversy! Combos and Concessions | 137 Magic: the Gathering Commander/EDH Podcast
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Show Notes:
We've got Controversy a-brewin this week! Jimmy and Josh discuss the ethics and workarounds for combo-heavy metas, and if it's ever ok to "concede" as a strategic response to an opponent.
What We Mentioned:
Interview of Jimmy and Josh at GeneralDamageControl.com:
generaldamagecontrol.com/black...
Commander's Brew Episodes featuring Jimmy and Josh:
www.commandersbrew.com/single-...
www.commandersbrew.com/single-...
InResponse with The Professor and Josh:
• In Response: New EDH C...
New Gameplay Videos: Game Knights #01:
collected.company/2016/12/04/g...
What We Mentioned on the End Step:
TAPAS!
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Check out our sister podcast - The Masters of Modern:
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Commander/EDH Official Rules, Banlist, Forums, and more:
mtgcommander.net/rules.php - Hry
You guys are aggressively reasonable and chill. Subscribed.
I'm a fan of the term "aggressively reasonable" :D - jimmy
Starts at 11:30
Wade Carruthers thank you so much they have way too long intros
only conceding at sorcery speed fixes a lot of the issues you guys discussed which is a practice my playgroup uses.
Simon Lee Just out of curiosity, does vedalken orrery give u Instant speed concessions?
I don't think so, you don't cast concessions. lol
THIS. Completely agree. I've seen many people scoop during the combat step to prevent against damage dealing effects. Which is the reason I prefer combos. If someone's willing to spitefully scoop to prevent things like Rakdos's mana reduction, then they deserve to get combo'd out.
what i mean is only conceding during your turn and not "in response" to something.
as for the vedalken orrery comment, while thats hilarious, no.
a small addendum: i think if everyone agrees to concede simultaneously because someones table wiping combo requires digging through the library for 20 minutes, flashbacking every instant and sorcery in the graveyard with infinite mana, etc. its fine. but thats a specific situation.
I think combos have their place as a finisher. But they are no fun to play when combo is the only win con in the deck and is based on combining out asap
Kitsune Legion i agree completely
Kitsune Legion I feel the same. My Karador deck sometimes combos as a finisher but often it grinds out wins in the late game. I could aggressively set up combo but that isn't fun, I feel the way people play defines how their group feels about combo.
When I play combo I always moderate it for the enjoyment of others, one so others enjoy and two so other players don't feel the need to knock me out as soon as possible so that I don't win and they can.
I tend not to play tutors with combos, or at least not just tutor for combo pieces all the time. I try to have other wincons even if they are heavy synergy to the point of almost combo but not infinite.
Of course you could make a ultra combo commander deck that is really consistent and competitive and searches for its combo pieces early and forces your play group to alter their decks to win faster or have spot removal/counters in heavy supply to stop you but that is somewhat unfun for a lot of people.
How combo heavy you can be depends on your meta.
I agree to an extend. I have a Leovold combo/control deck that uses Doomsday+Lab Maniac to win but plays a grindy control strategy until it comboes off. It's my only way to really win but I don't race to that point
Conceding to stop an infinite loop is what Harry Potters mom did to voldemort...
I have a complaint about Card Kingdom....umm...they're not actually a kingdom. Their name is full of lies.
There. A single complaint.
Sound off in the comments what you think about Combos and strategic Concessions in Commander!
The Command Zone Forgot shadow of a doubt! Stops search in response
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled Shuts down searches :)
I have a suggestion.
Wizards printing commander specific cards. Are they good or bad? Are they a detriment for the format? TheManaSource recently did a video on the warping effect the recent commander products on the commander economy which was interesting, something like all of the top 5 and 15 of the top 20 commanders of all time on edh rec are all from commander product. Is this bad for variety in commander?
For instance, there have always been many different artifact themed commanders, now we have Breya who is arguably more powerful then all of them but also includes all of their colors, which means they can now be run in the 99. Unless you are doing something quite specific Breya is probably the best artifact commander full stop.
Wizards also frequently add things into the format that interact with the rules of commander in a way the original card base did not. For instance having commanders with activated or triggered abilities that work in the commander zone, Derevi for instance circumvents the commander tax, Oloro triggers and gets value from a zone you can't interact with, Planeswalkers are allowed and you can have two commanders with partner. Is this a positive thing for the format?
Have Wizards been printing overpowered cards into the format in order to sell product and if this continue will it eventually result in the format being made primarily of commander product cards, full of auto-includes and cards so good they are hard to turn down? Was the format better and more unique when the format was primarily made up of older cards printed in normal sets?
The way the most popular decks are now you could imagine that two years with 10+ more new commanders printed and a 100+ new commander cards that the meta card base will include less and less cards from normal magic sets.
Is this a problem? I think it is controversial, please discuss.
First episode of In Response discussed it
The Command Zone some of my favorite hate cards are spirit of the labyrinth, eidolon of rhetoric, voidstone gargoyle, and omen machine.
Great episode as always! I think it'd be cool if you guys discussed fully dedicated Stax Decks as a follow-up. My group doesn't have much experience playing with or against hardcore Stax decks so I think it would be really interesting to hear what you guys have to say about it!
I have never had a more dirty look than when I sat down to play some commander, KNOWING 2 of my friends were combo players, with a Gaddock Teeg deck. Oh it was beautiful, I could taste the salt. This was after weeks of losing to Tier 1 combos. Had a laugh after the games, the next week one came with Infect and the other went Pillow Fort.
Will Houldy Love everyone's response here. You make a deck to counter your meta, they then come back with new stuff to play against you. This, to me, is how it should be.
The blind obedience effects you should call "bow down" effects.
John Ashe Oh nice- I like it!
Well, read the flavor text
Our play group has the "Concede at Sorcery Speed" rule. Basically doesn't allow people to scoop to hinder other people attempting to win. Works pretty well for us.
You guys are awesome. Thanks for answering my question! Gave me lots to think about.
As always, big thanks for the great show!
Since I don't see anyone from Competitive EDH community comment here I'll state ours stand on this "combo" topic because it's what cEDH is all about.
First of all, all decks in cEDH are at least secondary combo. There is no Voltron/Token/Superfriends, instead the archetypes are:
-GoldfishCombo (represented by Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Prossh, Skyraider of Kher) - these decks aim to close the game on turn 3-4, sometimes 2. They are weak to disruption but are needed to keep the format in check. There is no rule, but usually they win after casting a specific card, be it Food Chain, Ad Nauseam or something else.
-Midrange[aka.SlowCombo] (Jarad, Goldari Lich Lord & Sharuum the Hegemon are most common ones) - They utilise broken graveyard interactions and are very resistant to disruption. Their main weakness is slowness, aiming to close games as late as turn 5-6. Oftentimes multiple instawin combos requiring 2 specific cards + commander are used.
-Stax (most representative are Brago, King Eternal and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician but nearly every commander can do it) - the closest you get to traditional control but instead of counters and removal you straight-up lock others out of the game. Multiple cards halting mana (Statis, Winter Orb, Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire etc.) coupled with a lot of cheap&efficient mana rocks allow Stax pilot to slow the game considerably and turn off combos. At the same time, they play some insta-win combos too.
Overall, cEHD is my favourite format and I heavily recommend reading an article "Playing EDH to Win" by Razzliox. It's like Legacy but more diverse and with more interaction while keeping the large amounts of thought required to play well. I still feel like I'm improving as a player after nearly every game!
Oh, and maybe you guys could talk a bit about cEDH sometime? It would be very refreshing to jump from Johny Magic to Spike Magic for once. That format is criminally underplayed IMO.
Regarding the second issue:
When everyone is playing to win, using concede as a tool doesn't make any sense because you're going to lose anyway. I've seen Prossh combo on turn 2 a couple times and once Sidisi nearly won on turn 1 (also as a first player) so people just don't concede anymore. Good sportsmanship is one thing, getting used to such thing is the other.
It's really cool watching them talk about game knights as a newer fan who has already watched like 40 episodes of game knights, and it's actually what got me here.
I would love it if you folks made a dedicated video describing a basic model for a good deck. So... (land, acceleration, card draw, spot removal, wraths... other) How many cards do I really have to work with once all those cards are accounted for. Now obviously there are plenty of reasons to shift the numbers based on the commander, but having a basic model would be nice. Or maybe just some basic principles. like ( I always keep these things in mind when I'm choosing the cards for my deck.) Great content fellas!
I looooove game knights by the way! I hope it can continue on a somewhat regular basis. It's what I've wanted to see from mtg gameplay videos for YEARS!
Video properly starts at 5:55
I never consede mid stuff, even if im completely sure that i'm loosing, i find it "anti-sportsmanship". The only time i conseded was in a 1v1 game agains an Oloro prison deck, but my opponent was way to slow in his method to win, and after a couple of minutes i just grew bored.
For Infect, my EDH group's solution was House Rules. Whoever's place we play at gets to choose between 10 to 20 counters.
Other ways to concede strategically include you having a number of White- can't attack can't block auras that become unattached when you concede for potential value e.g. someone who was being attacked now has blockers. Someone who didn't have anything they can do next turn is now able to finish off the person in the lead because you're no longer preventing their Ulamog from attacking etc. (Or indeed if you have blind obedience on the field and an opponent says "I have a haste creature that can kill Jimmy this turn if it weren't for blind obedience")
More examples in which conceding can unduly influence the game:
1) Whenever the conceder has a Oblivion Ring-like card out and concedes to have w/e is exiled influence the game, either to just give someone a blocker in combat or a permanent with an ETB or static effect.
2) In response to someone taking something from you, be it on the battlefield or in your graveyard or library, with stuff like Control Magic, Beacon of Unrest, and Bribery.
great content. helped on many levels. how do I build in extra paths to victory without destroying the +1/+1 counter machine that is breed lethality?
Great video guys! love all of these topics, good food for thought
we also tried out conceding counting as an ability on the stack which was fun
grettings from Chile (south america) we had this combo heavy meta in my community (30 people) but then some of the best players rotated into more control decks, this changed the meta towards a control theme, cause nobody con get a combo off until they had control of the board, a lot of stacks/prison decks, now everything is upside down with commander 2016, and we love it :D
also in league, we play with achievments, wich are more important than wining the game, there are positive and negative achievments, like "too brute to play": kill an oponent before his/her 5th turn (-3 points) this is how we counterbalance combo decks in leagues, in deathmatch mode we play without any achievments and its crazy fun, anything can happen XD
You said Tapas and I immediately got hungry... I was full just a moment ago! They're the best! I love going to places and just ordering a ton of small plates with some friends. Everyone gets a little of whatever they want.
My friends azami deck has tons of different combos in the deck but the main 2 are infinite mana for capsize or mind over matter + lab maniac. I've conceded in response to capsize before but he usually ends up winning from that point anyway within a turn or 2 just due to the insane value infinite mana generates.
My friends were starting to build combo decks (Animar, Talrand, etc) and spent $600+ on their decks. I came in next week with a Grand Arbiter Augustin IV hatebear deck. It cleaned them right up back to creature aggro strategies.
Great shout out for Sean at GDC!
Minds dilation does wonders in my Silumgar "steal it all" commander deck. So great when you get to resolve it on a safe board
Newly subscribed to you guys and know that this video is months old but here are my two or three cents.
First off, combo decks are everywhere and people go infinite by turn three. Now to me, that isn't very fun, but to others it is. However I have gotten in the habit of asking the play group or the pod of players if we are going to play "big boy" decks or play more 75% fair decks. It has helped me temper my expectations. I feel personally that people get the most upset when their preconceived expectations about a game are not met. So that has helped a little.
On a similar tangent, outside of league commander tournament games at my LGS (Hi De Ho Comics), my playgroup has this hidden rule where if someone combos out on turn 4 or 5, then while we acknowledge that they win, the rest of us continue playing so we can get some semblance of enjoyment out of playing commander with each other. This has kind of curtailed our competitive combo friend from combing every game so that he can play a bit longer of a game with us.
On the conceding point. Josh, I agree with you, but some things are just too much of slog to fight through that some of us just don't see a personal benefit to playing through a game of commander with no lands. However, I am one of those players who plays Armageddon effects, as I understand the benefit and sometimes necessity to reset everyones lands. Though I play it as a win con to shut people down from answering me while I attack or combo off for the win. The only time I really groan about a rival armageddon effect is when a new player does it just to slow the game down but not be able to win for several more turns.
That is just my three cents.
is it a mizzix update? the new deck you were referring to josh
or maybe two of the new partners that refer to spell casting triggers
Why spellskite isn't played more in commander: its over 20 bucks and sees lots of modern play.
It's over 20 bucks and sees a lot of modern play.
It's very limited in Commander for its effectiveness (especially when playing against a combo deck). Spellskite is fine card to use in commander, but its not one of those go to staples and is better replaced by spells that advance your board state rather then delay an event that may or may not happen.
Also Spellskite only works if it is a valid target for that spell or ability. They are wrong and It would NOT work in the Kiki-Jiki case that they talk about in the episode.
About 32:00 ... I used to had a deck really focused on taking everyones permanents, an in certain point i was about to win a game, but since 2 of my opp scoop i loose that game.
How should i feel about that? 😒
Now that i have a Kozilek, the Butcher of Truth, most of the time I win cuz my beatdown creatures, but sometimes i end the games with just an infinite mana combo...
Just watched your intro... and it's -20c here in canada... Thanks guys thanks alot.... XD
I like that you guys suggest possibility storm. I love that card, my playgroup hates it though :(
You changed my view on infect a little there. While I do not face it much, it is nice seeing that view of it. Also, I love anything that quickly beats a pure combo deck that has no interaction on the board.
I hate infect, but I enjoy playing against it. have no problem with it. but Jimmy, you really don't know why people have a flavor hatred for Phyrexia? they killed everyone on MIRRODIN! D:
Not killed. Perfected.
Eric Funk I do not hate the phyrexians, but I want another Mirrodin block where they are pushed back again, because Mirrodin it is my favourite plane.
Deiby Barrientos I don't like phyrexians because they killed the sliver queen and the weatherlight was dope
I don't mind infect but come on, can't call anyone jerks...not even stax players lol
Discuss mass land destruction. we allow it in our playgroup as it gives aggro (red/white) a decent chance to perform and makes green fair again.
In my playgroup, I play Karador with a Boonweaver combo and I´m not allowed to combo until turn 10 when they all have ways to disrupt it. Although, I also play other kinds of decks and rarely use Karador (only when I really want to win). Still, I believe that that kind of house rules help maintain a healthy and varied EDH enviroment.
You Subscriber count dosent match up to the Quality of your content and production value. You guys are Great "stay golden ponyboy stay golden"
One way to discourage combo is to set up a point system, much like the SCG commander series, and make killing everyone at the table in a single turn worth negative points. To make points worth getting, everyone can anti a dollar and the winner of the points at the end of the night gets the pot. That way someone can win the pot even if they don't take a single game. Point systems, when relatively simple, can encourage creative/diverse deck building in a meta. You can even change the point structure for each game to encourage a variety of deck styles. In one game make combo wins worth negative and the next make them worth the most. That way everyone gets to play the style of deck they like. Just a thought...
I primarily play mono-Black with lots of tutors, so I refrain from having any infinite combos in the deck. I do however have HALF of many different combos in the deck, and the other half in a sideboard. Mikaeus is in the deck, Triskelion in the side; Exquisite Blood is in the deck, Sanguine Bond in the side, and so on.
I call it my Naughty List, and only bust it out when a player or the whole meta starts getting out of control. I can keep up with combo metas if they emerge, or send a message to one problem player, without really letting my deck become degenerate itself.
are you you playing Rashmi/ Something with vial smasher with minds dilation?
in our meta, when people combo out we just "ok, you win . .everyone keep playing!" and just move on to the next turn.
I'm adopting this for my kitchen table
The only thing out of this that I would outright want to remove a player from a group over is conceding to cause someone else to lose. With infect, I don't have much experience with it, but I swear I would legit put Leeches in my white decks to remove all the poison counters. I would actually do that, because, basically, not so fast!
With degenerate combos, anything noninteractive irritates me. I don't do anything terribly overt, though, because I know the reason the handful of people that play combo around me do it is because they want super strong decks. So, instead of trying to get them to stop playing combo directly, I include numerous cards that just shut down combo after combo. I actually LOVE playing against Squirrel's Nest decks, because they lose when I respond to declaration of attacks with Rakdos Charm. You thought you were about to win? No, sorry, not happening. Rakdos Charm is one of the best anti-combo cards in my opinion. For 2 mana at instant speed, you can exile a graveyard, have each creature deal 1 damage to its controller, or destroy an artifact. Graveyard combos hate seeing it pop out of nowhere and exile the combo pieces. I also once used it to counter a stack full of Purphoros triggers with game rules by killing the person who had just made like two dozen goblins all at once.
Other combo hate cards would be things like Leyline of the Void, which I find just hilarious. Trap cards can be great too. Ravenous Trap to exile their graveyard for free when they try to combo, Mindbreak Trap for countering uncounterables or an entire stack of combo pieces or storm for free. I also play Summary Dismissal and Time Stop for such purposes, and I know when to time them to interrupt almost any combo. In addition, Force of Will backup doesn't help when your counterspell is Counterflux, Final Word or Overwhelming Denial, since those are uncounterable. Also hilarious for infinite creature combos would be to respond with an instant-speed wrath. There's Rout, Fated Retribution, Evacuation, Starstorm, Aetherize if they have to attack, cycling Decree of Pain, stealing a wrath out of an opponent's yard with Memory Plunder, even just tapping down all their stuff with Cryptic Command.
There's one major card with split second you didn't mention that you should have, though: Trickbind. Counter target activated or triggered ability. Split second. Stops combos pretty well. Also, Angel's Grace will ensure that no matter what they do, they cannot kill you that turn. It's a white instant for one that prevents you from losing or dropping below 1 for the turn, or an opponent winning. In the preventing your opponent from playing cards department, Declaration of Naught is an enchentment that costs double blue. When it enters, name a card, and you can pay a blue to counter the named card. If you really wanted to be a jerk, you could donate the combo deck with no sac outlets an Abyssal Persecutor so that they can't win and none of the rest of you can lose.
Honestly, the only things that I cannot stand are the things that can't be interacted with. Did you know even split second can be interacted with? Unmorphing things doesn't use the stack. You can unmorph a creature with a Krosan Grip on the stack. If that creature is one of the ones that counters a spell when it flips face up, you can counter split second cards, because that's a triggered ability which can be put on the stack regardless. Emblems and experience counters, however, for me merit house rules to enable me to interact, such as allowing players to count as permanents for all purposes related to counters. I will gladly use a Hex Parasite to remove your experience counters if I have to, thanks. I also think Emblems should be treated as permanents with no card type. Basically, they exist on the batlefield rather than in the command zone. They can be bounced, destroyed or exiled to get rid of them. If you really want, you could make them indestructible, but regardless, you can't murder an emblem because it's not a creature. That very same reason, however, would allow you to Bramblecrush it instead. If you don't want those house rules while playing those decks against me, rethink your decision, because if I can't interact with your deck, you are target number one every game, regardless of anything else. That guy over there is playing ultra-voltron Rafiq? Don't care, I've got answers. Maze of Ith, Mystifying Maze, Kor Haven, Tower of the Magistrates to make all your equipment fall off...You, however, are playing five-color superfriends and doing everything you possibly can to get emblem-producing walkers to ultimate immediately on entering? You are the target. I have no reason to assume that the number of counterspells in my deck is even capable of stopping you from dropping an emblem that just wins the game without any chance to change course afterwards. Therefore, you're dead the instant I can manage it.
...Just my 2 million cents. Yeah, that was a lot.
The flip side of that, particularly the emblems bit, is that you devalue any planeswalker not being used in a superfriends list. I have a Liliana, Heretical Healer in my Meren deck. I have literally zero ways to interact with her counters short of "plus her for the next four turns". The one time I got to ultimate her was a wonderful game that I love, and frankly if you responded to that with "Chaos Warp the emblem?" on the next turn I probably would have left the table just because there was zero reason for me to waste my last four turns doing that. If you want to deal with superfriends.dek (which frankly shouldn't be a problem with all of your anti-combo cards), then do that. Don't devalue an entire card type out of laziness.
Jemolk aww but I love my squirrels...
Jemolk You sound super angry and spiteful about combo decks, yeesh. Ya dont sound fun to play with either. Just play a stax deck that makes everyone lose :D
Kestral287 I definitely understand that, and that's why I wouldn't just assume that I have it covered there. It would be so much better if there were like one card, say an artifact, that enters tapped, and you pay mana and exile it to make all emblems cease to exist. People then play it if they're up against lots of superfriends decks, and otherwise no point. I knew all along I didn't have a perfect solution, but the superfriends decks and such tend to irritate the hell out of me. Another solution for a superfriends deck to not get targeted by me would be simply to remove doubling season. The other counter-doubling and adding things can be responded to by damaging the planeswalkers so they don't immediately ult, so if the superfriends decks would remove that, there would be no need for that house rule.
Trevor Mccord Actually, the main reason combo decks drive me nuts is that I don't have fun when I lose to them. If it's interactive in any way, if I can see an out that I had if I had just been able to hold off that wave of creatures or gain enough life to survive that Searing Wind, I can have fun even when I lose. When someone goes infinite out of nowhere and wins, the feeling is, "Well, that's that time wasted." It's not fun for me to lose against things that I don't have the ability to interact with. If the ability is there and I fail to do so, congratulations, you pulled it off, that was awesome how you did that. Like I said, though, the flip side is that if you do something degenerate, the only way for me to have fun is if you're not the one that wins.
Marc-Olivier Rodrigue The first time I played against a squirrel's nest combo, it was pretty damn hilarious. "You win with what?!" Afterwards, I didn't mind that combo so much because it takes numerous pieces, all of which can be stopped if I build/play right. I mean, my main control deck runs Urabrask as haste plus slowing down aggro, Rakdos Charm because it's all-purpose removal, and Strip Mine for utility lands as a cheaper alternative to Wasteland. If you manage to catch me with none of those and no counterspells with Squirrel's Nest, you probably deserved to win. The fact that it's not that reliable means I don't mind it half so much. Of course, it also defeats the purpose of combo decks for most of their players, but if you want janky, unreliable combo, that's fine. I just never seem to see it myself.
I'm glad that my play group has not yet had to deal with people abusing conceding. One house rule that we have (I don't know if more do it or not) is that when someone either goes off infinitely (or declares something to end the game), the table decides to either let it play out and all get last or to give the win and play it out for the rest of the positions.
My local LGS holds commander tournaments, it's no holds barred and hyper competitive (for edh) and we've had it happen once or twice where someone tries a strategic concession, usually the judge just gives the player on the short end the end result (the life gain or whatever). Fortunately most of us recognize how hard you mess someone up by that type of concession.
oh, man. Infect.
I have an Infect pauper deck and even though I don't always win with it I always feel uncomfortable playing it.
... but basically I just don't like turn two or three kills.
I'm going to guess a Rashmi deck based on Mind's Dilation.
Ben Levett I second that. My friend actually has built that.
I love infinite combos the jankyer the better
I guess I'm writing a couple comments for this episode. To the combo heavy meta, I'd say start looking into the competitive EDH archetypes. it kind of hinges on what was talked about when facing infect, your deck has to be doing relevant things between turns 1 and 4. I think the natural progression of stopping heavy combo meta's would be stax decks like they talked about.
I made changes to my Captain Sisay deck from a slower, big-creature beater deck to a stax/LD deck in response to the more spikey decks in my playgroup being infinite combo single-turn-win decks. It's crazy how much effect something like Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, or even an early Sphere of Resistance will do to instant/sorcery reliant decks.
One of my favorite anti-combo cards is Maralen of the Mornsong. It shuts down all draw combos (and card draw in general), and when combined with any of the tutor hate cards you mentioned it pretty much shuts down everyone.
My playgroup has one rule when it comes to conceding, and that is that you can only concede at sorcery speed. You cannot do it in combat, and you cannot do it when things are one the stack. I feel it works really well. =)
One fantastic hatebear is scavenging ooze. Since so many gross combos need the graveyard, the scooze can just stop it. And having emergency lifegain is also much stronger than one would think.
A big point about hatebears is they still do things when opponents are not comboing out. By having power and toughness, they will be able to impact the game more than a counterspell rotting in hand or a do nothing enchantment.
Morph still can disrupt split second. Always fear the willbender.
So like, I'm a fan of house rules that weed out certain types of power. For example, I'm the most experienced member of my playgroup, and as a result, I do take the lion's share of the games. My main EDH deck is an Ephara-based control build that uses Flash guys, recursion, and token haymakers to gum up the board and creep in little bits of damage. A member of our group got salty about how I use Elesh Norn to give my deck enough reach to not drag the game out- and as a concession, I replaced my Norn with Sphinx of Magosi.
I feel that the concession to depower my deck (which is already light on power,) is not only the sporting thing to do- but a way to teach the other members of the playgroup that cards like Norn aren't a big deal as we continue to refine their decks and skills with each play session (since you know, EDH was developed as a format for both learning and socializing.)
12:00 I'm in a similar spot.
I did address it to the other players, but they are just not convinced by casual EDH anymore.
So my only reasonable option was to stop playing EDH with them until I figure out a solution on my own, since I have nobody else to play with and the online community starts to move towards cEDH as well.
17:03 Sadistic Sacrement is very narrow due to it's mana cost. Jester's Cap is better, but also much slower.
17:50 Aven Mindscensor, Mindlock Orb and other tutor-prevention tools don't do much good, since they cost more mana than the tutors that you want to deny. It only shuts down specific combos, like Captain Sisay.
23:10 Those "name a card" cards don't do enough. You'll only get to cast a handful of spells before the first opponent can combo off. Same with Split Second removal.
24:32 & 25:50 costs too much mana
What you need is something like Spirit of the Labyrinth, Rule of Law(/Eathersworn Canonist) and Rest in Peace all at once on the field by turn 3 if you really want to prevent someone from comboing off the turn afterwards, which just isn't consistent or fast enough.
The only thing that is fast enough is mana restriction - Thalia, Sphere of Resistance Winter Orb, etc, but that is about as boring to play as combo.
Great show. Sudden Spoiling is in every Commander deck I have (over 20) right along with the OG card Darkness. Black fogs ftw.
I have a friend that plays Skithiryx EDH, and he wins a fair bit but no more than any other deck wins. In 1v1, sure it sucks, but EDH is a multiplayer format so usually he has to deal with a table of 2-5 other players. He loves it because he finds it hilarious and a challenge to play; I have played it and it is really fun. It is also not as powerful as many people believe it to be because unless there is another infect player at the table (which is very rare) they have to do all their own work, since they win through poison counters and they are the only ones spreading them most of the time.
On terms of conceding, iv got a Phenax mill deck for one of my edh decks. One of the ways I win is by chain untap mills with creatures that get bigger with graveyard size(Consuming Aberration) causing it to double in size after each tap mill. This can lead to removing all other players libraries that turn and a win for me, unless someone drops from the game knowing they are dead in their next draw phase. If someone leaves mid combo they take their 70+ card graveyard with them and fizzling any more potential kills. So iv had to ask the other players to not just pick up and let me do the combo iv been building up all game. Our playgroup has a lot of 100%, combo, or lockdown stasis decks so its not out of order to be winning with a combo that isn't even going infinite.
How do you Guys feel about "mindless" actions? e.g. someone does sth just because they want to See what happens next or to make the whole table grown/concede etc.
I don't know much about infect, but in my play group there is this super competitive voltron deck, which is like the big nemesis in the group. Everybody needs to progress with their own plan, but also make sure not dying to that voltron player. I actually rather enjoy this kind of play.
What are things I could put in an Animar deck to deal with board wipe?
Ryuga Kuroyami it's kinda hard to bounce back from that bit having opal palace helps a little bit. that green card that makes creatures with counters indestructible. it's either inspiring call or solidarity in heroes.
Soul of New Phyrexia, Stratus Dancer, Draining Whelk, counterspells in general (I love Stubborn Denial in particular), a large enough card draw engine to not be out of the game after a wipe, and some haste enablers to make sure your creatures get value.
Are you building wrexal of the risen deep?
What are some of your favorite commons and uncommons in each color for Commander? On a related question, are there any commons/uncommons you feel are underrated for Commander play?
A lot of these responses take for granted that you have a consistant group to go back to. In my area, EDH is basically vintage. Turn 4-5, there's been at least one attempt to win the game or putting one piece of a combo on board and have the other FoW'd away. Trying to play EDH "for fun" is a foreign concept.
My only issue with infect in Commander is the 10 poison counter limit. As you know, you start with 40 life, instead of 20, and death by commander damage is 21. I feel that the poison counter limit should have been doubled to 20 in Commander in order to maintain the half-life feel that infect implies in other constructed formats. As it stands now, infect in Commander means you only have to reduce a players life by one quarter to win, which is why most people feel infect is "too broken" in Commander.
I gave my input before watching you then said the exact same thing, lol. :-D
My big problem in my playgroup is that I played slower prison deck, but because I'm a stronger player in this group, people start focusing me mostly all games. This pushed me with my Atraxa deck every evening deeper in the combo edge. It's sad, but with my collection I don't see any other way to survive such focusing with out comboning.
I think this debate about combos etc really boils down to "is there a disparity in the power level of the play group?" Like if someone is playing a Previn while you're comboing out with 3/4 optimal cards and tutors etc...maybe re-evaluate. Powerful decks are awesome and needed in our format but use some discretion when choosing opponents for them. This tends to keep salt levels down in my experience. :)
I know this is an old video, but I thought I would toss in that my playgroup only concedes at Sorcery speed. It solves a lot of the issues you guys discussed.
How early is too early to combo out? I like to think if you are able to combo out it is mostly the other players faults for not packing removal or interacting. However on the other side of the coin, some people want to play longer games and prefer to durdle. I find myself intentionally not combo'ing off for the sake of the the other players at my LGS. Everyone I know is heavily against going infinite. Sadly, I will sometimes hold the combo in hand for three plus turns just to allow them to have a "funner" game. Does anyone have this same issue or any thoughts on going infinite?
You can morph in response to split second bc its resolving a static ablility
My play group (six of us) has two people who intentionally go out of their way to be jerks when building decks, but it makes the game really fun and more exciting. I started playing during the original Innistrad block, so I was well into the game when the Scars block started, and I loved it. It's easily within my top two blocks, and infect is amazing.
The biggest problem with strategic concessions for me is that my favourite deck (Damia, Sage of Stones) becomes almost completely invalidated by it. The deck functions by controlling the board and ramping early on before using Cabal Coffers and Urborg to make a HUGE amount of mana and cast Villanious Wealth for a ton of value. The problem with this is that if someone concedes after I cast Villainous Wealth I just basically time walked myself and wasted my favourite win condition. As a result, i've had to implement more boring win conditions like Mind Grind to pull off these big wins that the deck is made to do. At least if conceding was a card I could play around it by just stocking up on counter spells but because it is completely non-interactive I can't help but feel like it just shouldn't be an option.
I'm the worst aggro player, I commit a lot of combat decision mistakes and always end up tending to make the game last longer even with the most aggressive deck in hand, idk I just like mid rangey and control strategies in general I guess.
That being said, this video and the first Game Knights one just got me determined to build an aggressive infect deck! Thanks Craig!
What are your thoughts on grid lock
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled punishes searching through your library and is in black. It can be a pain to deal with if you do that a lot, In my group though there isn't too much searching anyway though.
Omg go back to 0:44 and Josh says "screw you guys" right at the bass drop.
Playing a dedicated combo deck is my absolute favorite way to play. The problem with playing powerful decks, whether it is combo, stax, midrange or any other kind of tuned deck, is that you are playing a powerful deck. If you play a highly tuned combo deck vs decks that can't keep up then THAT is the problem, not the fact that you are playing combos.
When playing multiplayer commander(or any form of magic) the most important thing to consider is proper threat assessment. If you have removal, you should remove the biggest threat to you, when it is the biggest threat to you. For example, if I have a combo piece that enables me to win if I get the next combo piece, then remove it ASAP(or at least as soon as you should), but just hating me out preemptively because I play a powerful combo is not the right thing to do. It STOPS me from playing the game that we all love in a way that I love.
A lot of the times that I play my combo deck, people just gang up and take me out of the game before I get to play even though I was never actually a threat. That's not cool. For example, if you know my combo pieces and you put sadistic sacrament or jester's cap in your deck SPECIFICALLY and ONLY to hose me then you're basically saying you don't want to play against me or rather, my combo deck.
If that is the way you want to beat my deck, then I probably will not want to play my combo deck, and that makes me unable to play a form of magic that I enjoy the most! Putting one or two cards in that ONLY affect one player should be viewed as a slight against said player and does not attribute to a healthy meta.
The correct answer to a combo deck is to build a better, well-rounded deck, not one that specifically targets the combo player. I don't want to combo out without you fighting back, that's not a "good game" of Magic. I want to win with combo despite all your best efforts, but if your best efforts are to play the cards that do nothing but target my combo, or to hate me out before I even get to play, then I'm not going to consider that in the spirit of the game and I will be less likely to want to play my favorite kinda game.
Triggered abilities can counter split second cards (e.g. Decree of Silence or Counterbalance). Also, Voidmage Apprentice can counter them because morphing does not use the stack as it is a special action.
Love the podcast guys!
I do think some of the advertising and announcements should be moved to the end though. Like you guys said, having to wait 10 minutes for the podcast to get rolling is a little frustrating. Great work regardless :)
Did you forget the link to MTACast's new CZcams channel?
Contamination is good for stopping combos and other abilities. Slow down extra mana and stop them from being in their colors. Besides, black doesn't have enchantment removal, so even harder for them to remove it. And there are plenty of ways to pay for that sac easily enough.
Voidstone Gargoyle is another version of Nevermore. And its a 3/3 flier, 5 mana, also stops abilities if that matters.
i have a friend who has been gone for a while and we used to play magic a lot. he is coming back but i'm worried that since the meta has changed so much, he will have a hard time jumping back in.
what do i do
the thing about infinate combo is that there is definitely a ticking timebomb. something that my playgroup has done regularlly through some magical non verbal agreement that we dont combo off if we can unless it will stop a win or us dying. had this happen the last time I won the game when I had basically said you 3 fight i will watch and allow stuff to happen. playing Roon OTHR blink so I was almost untouchable. when someone casted emrukul and ulamog I jumped in and did my combo to stop the win and then won myself and everyone was totally fine with it. (also i had not one a single full playgroup game in a year but thats beside the point lol)
Put a Time Stop on Elite Arcanist and then end the combo person's turn every time it gets to their upkeep. Mycosynth Lattice and Unwinding Clock to do it on every upkeep if necessary.
I realize i'm super late to the party, but i hunted down this video because of the concessions section because i've had a problem with it.
one of my favorite decks is a Phenax Mill deck. one of the most powerful synergies in it is creatures that gain toughness based on cards in all graveyards. several times i've been in range to mill out the table and had players concede to remove their graveyards from the game so that i can't finish off other players at the table.
You cannot use spellskite to redirect Kiki's ability to it. It says "creature you control"
Most people call it a snowstorm, Boston calls it tuesday
lol yup
two part question. what would you do with a player that "hate" picks against the decks at the table or builds decks specifically to fight a certain type of deck? like if said player sees the rest of the table play creature based decks he'll grad his 30+ board wipes deck or "you can't do anything" prison deck; because maybe his aren't built "properly" and that's the only way to compete with the rest of the table?
I love having the infect player in the playgroup! The politics get crazy with everyone making deals with the infect player and then making other deals to get rid of the infect player. The games are definitely faster meaning more games in a session. The people who are making negative judgment towards the infect player obviously have not played against infect in a multiplayer game. I'm somewhat glad that someone in our playgroup started playing infect even though it's still a scary strategy to play against lol
So where do I actually go to download podcasts? rocketjump isn't updated
Grimdrome You can find them all at our new hub collected.company, or subscribe to our RSS feed, which automatically updates when we publish an episode. Thanks!
Have you guys ever talked about cards like avacyn which you 'have' to include?
Thanks for you content fam
Okay, I have a very important question about Saskia: When you first choose a player, they are marked for as long as Saskia remains in play, and since she says that whenever a creature you control deals combatdamage to A player, they take that much damage, so if you attack the marked person, they will take double damage, right? Because i haven't seen anyone talking about it, but it seems logical?
peter røddik it is basically double damage, in some situations it's not double damage such as commander damage. And saskia ability is better then double damage when you have cards that double damage like Gisela. Like in a scene you have saskia player A and have Gisela. You attack with Gisela for 5, gisela ability make the damage to be 10. Than goes saskia ability on stack and will deal 10 damage, but because you have Gisela it's double again so player A take 20. So player A take 30 damage in total, mean while if you had 2 double damage card you would only have done 20 damage in this situation. But almost all others situations, saskia ability is double damage.
Just in case this comes up for anyone, you can't actually redirect Kiki-Jiki's ability to target spellskite because Kiki says "creature you control" and your opponent doesn't control spellskite, at least I'm pretty sure that's how it works
My meta has always focused on spikey gameplay and combos. There are some Timmy cards played that are just all around fun but majority of the decks are broken, aggressive monstrosities that just make people rage. I'm glad I started in a playgroup that started at this level. I think had it evolved into something spikey from casual play maybe I would have lost interest because it would be a game of keep up. I guess it's just perspective but I've played commander for years now and it feels just as fresh as the first time I played. Especially with Wizards of the Coast focusing more on the format and cards being printed that are playable I think now more than any time in the past that I enjoyed playing commander. It truly is a great format and couldn't recommend it more.
I'm with you Josh; Why should you deny one person their fun for the hope that others might -maybe- have fun / stand a chance? If I built a board state of lifelinkers swinging for 1,000 and someone conceded; my group would roll back to the beginning of the combat step; because we don't play with children.
We also don't allow someone to affect the board (out of spite) and then concede. If you want to play spells, play the game. Otherwise, we will rescind the invitation to our sessions.
I think my deck which ultimately wins with comet storm, is the type of combo that is alright. It doesn't try incredibly hard to get comet storm, but it can win with some ease in the late game; however when a deck just sits there tutoring and playing broken cards, without interacting at all, what's the point?