Mass Battle: The US Air Force vs The Chinese Air Force & Navy (WarGames 150) | DCS
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2024
- We answer the viewer question whether or not the US Air Force could take on the Chinese Air Force & Navy. Our sim can not handle 3600 aircraft similtaneously, so we run a 1/10th scale proportional battle with 360 aircraft.
PATREON: / grimreapers
Mods: • Free DCS Mods
0:00 Overview
1:00 Research
4:44 Scenario Details
12:01 Predictions
13:00 Battle!
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THANK YOU TO: Mission Makers, Admin, Staff, Helpers, Donators & Viewers(without which, this could not happen) xx
#WarGames #GRWarGames #China #USAF #Su57 #J20 #F22 #F35 #F15EX #F16C #DCSQuestioned #GR #DCSWorld #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators #Military #DCS #DCSWorld - Hry
Chinese Air Force vs Russian Air Force: czcams.com/video/vHO94A7x6v8/video.html
US Air Force vs Chinese Air Force czcams.com/video/ngXvWALKi1w/video.html
US Air Force vs US Navy & Marine Corps: czcams.com/video/OfThwhYC-WQ/video.html
so.. why did 4th gen fighters go in first and not the stealth fighters?
I certainly feel like a valued viewer
Viewerton*
@@moshmeary51I'm a value-added viewington from viewbieville. I graduated Viewgworts in Observinghampton.
What about a valued humanoid?
@@flashgordon6670 that might take a while. Everybody, get busy!
@@flashgordon6670 well, if it's the Universe you're looking to for payback, I'd watch that plan. The bitch cooks her books, plus she's an actual witch.
So funny how the trolls will complain about so many things. Instead of just enjoying all the hard work that goes into the videos.
Welcome to my life...
what I think was happening was not only did F16s not carry enough missiles, but they were wasting them all on humans who were 'soaking up the aggro' by being very evasive directly under them.
That was incredibly entertaining!!! My favorite moment was when Super Cap caught a J-20, an F-22, and an F-35 all-in one-shot dancing around in close quarters!! Brilliant stuff!! Hats off to Brandon, aka the Flying Dutchman for the excellent tactical flying staying low and popping up, especially early on before all the stealth American aircraft were on the scene!!
Fixing the F35 bug made a difference. Well done Cap, lots of work!
I'd like to see this fight again but with the reserve forces split proportionally through all the aircraft types so there would be stealth aircraft from the start on both sides as I think this would better represent the two sides availability of the airframes. Given that stealth made such an impact mid-game, I think this would probably change the overall dynamic
"hello valued viewers" has that soothing quality you'd find at the beginning of a "therapeutic mind journey" video. Best part of my day.
One thing that is not accurate is typical air to air for F16 is one AIM9X and the rest 120's. Same with 15.
This why we can't get enough of Cap and the Grim Reapers! Thank you for keeping us entertained.
You give such a thrilling commentary Cap. These videos are always one of the most looked-forward-to events of my week.
Great fun Cap, no real issues today. Thank you to all the humans flying today, you make these so much more interesting. Peace.
haha around 20:35 the j15 with no wings and the interjection "well if you go fast enough you don't need 'em"
Thanks for doing this! BTW I find Cap to be one of the friendliest voices on CZcams.
awww
Cap is the best part imo!!! Love him
@@dexlab7539 Yep, they are all fun. And even if it causes me to pull my hair out, it's the best whenever something goes wrong.
You might say the server was Super Bugged down. What kind of server setup would you need in order to run the kind of complex game you'd want to? And is that something you might crowdsource?
@15:30 well if you’re on top of current status quo, game theory would have that person understate their capabilities to create confusion and uncertainty for runners-up. If you’re a challenger to the top position then it would behoove that group to overstate their capabilities to create worry for the top guy
This was bloody awesome 👏
F-22's screaming in like maniacs! Gun kills! Beautiful humans being cheeky! Carnage!
Absolutely loved it.
Why hold the stealth fighters back? Seems like if you LED with the stealth fighters, we would have the advantage because the Chinese would have had no targets to shoot at?
Love watching the Raptors come in and have a good stomp! Was worried this was going to be a reupload of another fight I just saw yesterday, but then I saw the fuel tanks. Excellent fight guys!
I would just like to note that this is literally every modernized warplane the Chinese have vs just the USAF. It's not including the Navy or the Marines, and the Chinese are still outnumbered. Really puts things into perspective.
china doesn't have a global military empire so it doesn't need an airforce that large.
@@hughmungus2760 If by that you mean China isn't a global superpower, then yes, you are correct.
Its definitely not. The J8's and JH7's were omitted and China's navy isn't aircraft focused like ours is so you can't really compare naval assets.
@@92HazelMocha I feel like he gave a pretty good rationale for omitting the J-8s and J-7s. They are basically modified MiG-21s. They do, technically, make up the numbers shortfall, but in a fight like this they wouldn't be able to do much. The Chinese mostly use them as trainers and expendable recon aircraft.
@@djzoodudeThey are *not* modified Mig21's. They're very very different aircraft, we're even getting a proper J8 module for DCS and the cockpit looks closer to an F16 than a Mig. And since they recently upgraded their J8 and JH7 inventory to be compatible with the SD10, they're far from trainer aircraft. Granted they'll eventually toss them in favor of J16's and J20's, but it would be like discounting Vipers just because we also have F35's.
Just for fun, I would like to see how the combined US Navy and Marine Corps air forces would do against the Chinese combined tactical Air Force.
Yeah, if the PLA is getting their 60 PLAN fighters then the US should get 600+ USN & USMC Super Hornets & F-35s.
i love that you include the chinese naval aircraft, but none of the USMC or USN aircraft and yet we still have the numbers advantage
You don't need them.
I dont understand why f16 and f15ex go first? It suppose to be the f22 and f32 so the can direct the missile of f16 and f15 to the target enemy.
Nice catch up to even it up. That F-22 swooping in and smashing 3, like a movie.
In any fight like this, you should spawn in stealth first. They would get in, destroy aircraft at a high rate and reduce missile platforms. Thus the enemy can fire a lot fewer missiles at 4th Gen follow ons. This has a disproportionate effect on the outcome, as it should.
Cap, are you seriously surprised that they’re so aggressive, even though they carry the name “Raptor”?😂
That was a great fight, I would be interested in finding out why the f-16's weren't firing their amrams
That map looks like the strings on a serial killer investigation.
Cool!
That F22 gun run on the J20 was mad. Nice video Grim Reapers
Great commentary Cap. Very well done. A Wimbledon announcer couldn’t do better!
The F22's being super aggressive (prob just because of their faster speed) kinda very well fits the meme
What kind of server would you need access in order to field 3600 aircraft? And why haven't we crowdfunded this?
I think DCS also is limited in how many CPU's it would utilize.
I've run missions with over 3600 ground vehicles and it only functions at 1/4 speed or slower, and ground units use an order of magnitude less cpu to run.
The commentary on this video is hilarious
Damn Cap, you were on FIRE with the commentary tonight! Thanks!!!
yeah the main unrealistic thing about this is it acts like a video game: units spawning and going in one at a time. I don't know about the Chinese, but the Americans would send planes in as flights, form up and then send a large group in all at once, and then they would volley fire: it's a lot harder for the enemy to avoid a massive fight of incoming missiles at the same time (think 48 jets firing two missiles each at the same time)
if you weren't attack sure, but in a real war when your airfield is getting bomb would it really be wise?
@@lagrangewei No one is sneaking up on a US air base and getting bombed without warning. But the poster is correct, the US, NATO, and pretty much every AF in the world (I believe) operates on the basis of multiples of either 2 or 4 jets. It's always an even number unless there's a last minutes reason (or in the case of actual combat...losses) that force an odd number of jets in a flight.
Basically, DCS just isn't programmed to use the real-world advantages the US has. The most stealthy jets, top-quality electronic warfare, amazing training quality, more flight hours than virtually every other country, more hours on realistic simulators, top-quality sesnors/datalink/satellite/radar using the F-35 as a flying computer/router. Not all forces are created equal, except in DCS.
@@jamison884 yep, and it doesn't't take into account tactics and doctrines. We would send in small groups of stealth planes first, knock out their airborne warning, then a large flight of planes firing multiple types of missiles from various ranges to mess up their formations, then a sneak attack flight of stealth aircraft right after that as the enemy reformed, then a last flight to achieve air superiority. With that last flight would come flights of HARM equipped planes and fighter bombers to go after air defenses and airfields, to get anything left on the ground, knock out there defenses and ability to respond. After that, focus would be on maintaining air superiority. No one does that better than us, thought the command and control aircraft we keep up. One of the sneakiest tactics we use is to volley off a flight of medium/long range missiles on passive mode. CC can vector the missiles in, enemy gets nothing on their warning sets. Last minute, they put the missile flight into active mode: the Chinese headsets would go ballistic with missile warning/missle lock, and the missiles would be at point blank range at this point (I serve AF '92-'98, saw things like this in action, pretty impressive)
in the real world they would have target discrimination as well instead of firing 10 missiles at the same dead guy.
China would do the same. But with tactics. They have stealth aircraft but not as much as US so they wouldn’t go head to head with all of their aircrafts
So why are the F-22s and J-20s not going ahead 1st?
yea, makes no sense sending in after the 4th gens
I am sure this way made a much better video. The Raptors would punch a hole through, the 35s would be circling spawn, and by the time the 40% of 15/16s spawned, they would need to carry bombs.
@@ncjoker420 Your comment made me laugh very hard. Yeah that would probably be the outcome.
Thanks Cap et al. You all seem to be having a ball. Look forward to the next one
Epic! Good job once again GR team!
We should do a drinking game where we take a sip each time Cap says “USAF”
Idk why it cracks me up so much you pronounce the acronym
Yup I'm a true Brit!
@@grimreapers pang.
why did you delete the original?
Nothing deleted, it's on GR2 channel.
@@grimreapers ohhh ok
I have seriously learned so much from watching these videos
also the J-20s can carry 4 external fuel tanks, if ur gonna give the f-35 and f22 tanks, give the j20 its fuel tanks
Maybe they are not modelled. It is a mod aircraft after all.
In the previous run, the F-35s AIs all RTB'd before engaging. I think the tanks were added just to make the scenario work. I don't remember a similar problem with the J-20.
I dont think J20s running out of fuel was the problem. they carried too few missiles. Although in coming years its likely J20s will get an upgrade to increase their capacity to 8
@@hughmungus2760 hmm yea j20s dont carry alot, i think the f35 only carried 4 but they updated it to carry 6 (i forgot if it was the f35 or f22)
The j20 is not a fighter but an interceptor, characterized by high speed and range, so there is no fuel shortage
That was an exciting war game.
now we need USAF and Navy together
That was fun the f22 hero gun kill was awsome 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
If the American side lead with their stealth it would have never even been close.
You would probably need a Cray Supercomputer to run this sim to scale.
The F-22 is by far my favorite fighter of all time! Not just because it IS the best, but it's also just super badass😂
Yup, and the balloon kill was worth the trillions spent on them 😂
Amazing battle folks! Super cool!!
I don't volunteer to be a 4th gen fighter pilot.
That was great..love the commentary
Everytime I hear Brandon talking I keep thinking: Why is Nyck de Vries calling himself Brandon....
Now Imagine if it was the navy marine and Air Force
Yup, and a fair fight may even be the US Navy and USMC vs. the Chinese AF (without the USAF altogether). USN and USMC have roughly ~1,200 fighter capable aircraft, from F-35B/C, F-18C & E/F/G, AV-8. Once they have all of their F-35s delivered, they should have a combined 700+, granted that's awhile from now.
Needless to say after this battle Bangladesh became a world power with 4 piper cubs.
This viewington declares a draw. If not; an American pyrrhic victory. Scale it down to 5% and add SAMs and AWACs. Go for a tactical battle and victory to see what side prevails.
Many OA-K1a's Have been delivered a long time ago. Most have gone to the DEA.
@@cj64343 You would be surprised but yea I designed them spray Agent Orange on cocaine fields and blow up drug labs. Drug lords have Anti Aircraft systems it was designed to doge missiles. We did do dissimilar combat training because they also have fighter jets mostly Su-27. This plane is slow but is more maneuverable than any thing but a DR1 do NOT try and dogfight it. Its hard to Boom and zoom it too it can jink like nothing else in the world. The armor is CRAZY! way more than it needs. To date we have never lost a pilot.
We love being valued
15:21 100% Cap!👍👍
Btw i haven't watched yet and already happy with the changes you've made compared to The GR 2 channel Vid ;)
25:45 Will the F-35s actually fight this time?
Seeing the F-22s charging in got me thinking: since the detection range is the limiting factor against 5th gen aircraft, in a 5th gen v. 5th gen fight, wouldn’t a load out favoring Fox 2s provide equal attack range while being lighter, cheaper, and harder to evade?
well, in reality, the American Stealth fighters would have been a lot harder to hit with missiles, even with WVR. But definitely entertaining.
best play by play ever...thanks mate
Raptor: LOOKS LIKE MEATS ON THE MENU BOYS
15:18
Because inches>centimeters but we only brag in the pub or in semi-polite company.
Lofted, it'll do about 140,000 cubits more than nameplate and the electrical supply is greater than needed for it's greatest conceivable range.
Come on, we're the ones who turned retired artillery barrels into bunker Eff'you!s on the order of a few weeks, dropped tests (of one dummy and one filled with hate) and loaded the other two for the discontinuity-of-life for a few guys.
Also, the world's second largest naval force (by tonnage) is our museum fleet and there are, at the least, 2.6 firearms for every man, woman and child (including undocumented aliens) in CONUS. We don't need to exaggerate.
;D
Oh and A RAPTOR JOINS IN ASWELL!!! at 39:09 is so funny
Great video. I wonder if the outcome would be very different if you started the stealth fighters on both sides first, as would be standard practice and then unleashed the lower-tiered aircraft into the fray. Thoughts?
Does having the pylons on the F-22 and F-35 affect the RCS of them? They can eejct them to ge their RCS back to the level they had before external stores/fuel tanks
"front line capable" ... oh c'mon. let'em fight!
Bloody beautiful.
Great battle !! Felt like Blue humans where nowhere and thus the big losses🤔
The advanced antiair systems on each get are not modeled correctly and, to make matters worse, the AI is not modeled to evade correctly and do not adjust to the threats in real time (in regards to evasion). Further more, the F15EX new missile warning and evasion systems are not modeled correctly. The only models in this sim that stood a chance to make a difference (and it showed clearly) is the PL missiles and stealth aircrafts. And the AI does not know how to maximize the stealth capabilities.
wouldnt the Stealthy F-22 / F-35 combo have headed up this fight?
Yeah. I mean, it's just for fun, but no way would they just send the F-16s in first one at a time as they took off.
I've been wondering the same. Wouldn't mind seeing the Stealths sent in first and then the 4th gens duke it out.
@@jestermarcus Yes. the issue is their server just can't handle a fight this big so they need planes to die to keep the framerate stable.
i hope one day you could do this full scale
Im having problems with my horas x56 ghost key pressing.
Any tips how to solve this issue please?
Many thanks for all your great videos.
With all of those fuel tanks and missles.. all of those planes must feel like flying dump trucks
What does the number under the jets icon present when in map view?
If Cortana was piloting one of these f-22's my goodness the amount of kills😅
Count, same thing would be true for the people's champ, Simba. 😊
@@pike100 Simba is masterful at notching missiles no doubt
I vaguely remember commenting this what if scenario on another video
Me too. Deja vu? Mandela effect?
This is improved version with everything working.
Cap = best sport commentator!!
Dam good stuff.
And then there is still the US Navy and their fighters. TIL there are no F-18s in the US Airforce.
I feel like something affecting the initial kills and losses before the stealth came in was the fact far more Americans were in the air than Chinese. There were far more Americans to kill than there were Chinese for them. Hence a lot of the AMRAAMs fired also went to waste and were concentrated on a few Chinese while there were far more people able to be killed for the Chinese.
That’s not how it works😂
I wonder what adding ea-18g growler would do to this scenario. That’d be super interesting
Still impressed that J-11 could take down raptors
That's sarcasm, by the way. Love it!
Valued request to simulate the entirety using 10 allowed spawns, (9 respawns) for each craft. If possible.
Cap - are you in any way related to the late, great Murray Walker? Getting some real 1990s F1 commentary vibes from this vid!
I loved Murray, possible the world's best commentator?
@@grimreapers It was 100% his pure deep-seated love and enthusiasm for the sport that made him the commentator he was - you could tell how much he loved watching the racing, loved the cars, knew the teams, knew the drivers - everything. F1 was never the same after he retired.
I get the same impression of you with military aviation - you're doing what you love doing, and it shows.
E-11 is not a C2 platform it is a comms relay platform only.
I personally liked the two wave scenario, its kinda more realistic that way, the battle would escalate, and logically more Planes would enter the battle plus the way you set it up was spot on as the more/mostly advanced Planes were in the second wave! Btw F-15EX looking very sexy!👍👍
However..... still looks like D3's are underperforming, seems like they have a drop lock problem, and especially in comparison :( which I certainly don't believe would be the case!
29:46 lol you already answered your question Cap the U.S. fired more missiles and are losing more Planes at the same time... answer is simple, it's the missiles... PL-15's are over performing while D3's are dropping locks like crazy, the evidence speaks for itself right there in that moment your mentioning😅
Anarchy, no, the most advanced planes would go in 1st. Then the 4th generation jets, loaded up as missile trucks, would come in behind the stealthy jets. Look at how the U.S. fought Desert Storm against Iraq - we sent in the F-117s and Wild Weasels first to make a safer path for our less sophisticated aircraft.
@@pike100 Yeah but that was a real conflict with actual tactics, this involves essentially no tactics...
Surprised to see an almost equal fight.
Thanks Cap! For science reasons, I'd really like to know the list of changes you implemented or if any bugs were found since the first version of this fight. The AIM-120 more than doubled the PK rate from around 10% to 20%+ or was that due to all planes having the D3 versus a mix of D1 and D3? Then there were drop tanks added, AIM-9X added to additional fighters.
I know you like to include your valued human boys in the videos to give them some fun, but I would TRULY, TRULY (!!) be interested in a day of pure DCS science (oxymoron?). Essentially, take this file into singleplayer and use fast forward, running it is several times with different variables changing. Perhaps you can make it interactive by throwing up some polls or making a post and people suggesting what types of variables to change. Personally, I'm really interested in seeing the stealth fighters entering the front early/first rather than 4th gen. I'm also curious as to why the F-16 performs so terrible in these fights. If you give the F-16 to actual human pilots, they perform much, much better than these AI F-16s. I know this is true for all jets when it comes to AI, but the F-16 in particular has shown to be absolutely amazing in the hands of a very skilled pilot. I don't know what your relationship or thoughts are concerning Growling Sidewinder and LongShot, but you give either of those guys (GS especially) an F-16 in either BVR or BFM and they will beat virtually any other jet 1v1 most of the time, or on a multiplayer server, just go and take out enemy jets over and over with landing and re-arming, then repeat.
Anyway, I truly hope we can have a user-suggested science fair day where valued viewer suggestions are utilized to run some simulations and we can all learn a bit more as to how DCS works and also see for ourselves the type of variances involved when running a mission file numerous times with either the same or virtually the same variables and seeing how different the results are each time.
Suggestions for changing up variables. And to be clear, it doesn't have to be a battle quite this large and the number of jets can be evened up too. I think this battle just increased my interest in seeing tests being run. I saw someone else posting this exact suggestion as well - changing up the variables to see what happens.
- Deployment of the AIM-260
- Switching sides of the map
- Substituting a portion of the F-16 and/or F-15 with some USN super hornets
- Realistic formations rather than jets taking off one-by-one via use of triggers spawning in multiples of 4 jets in combat formation at a time
- US using AIM-120C7 only vs. PL-15 and then PL-12 to see an exaggerated difference in how range impacts everything
- Guns only just for the fun of it
- Unlimited fuel and no tanks to see what the results would be
- IR-only (fox-2) loadouts
- Pivoting the map and using spawn triggers, with each side taking a turn of fighting over/in the mountains and the other side having to come in directly over the water as they're engaged (no ground cover)
Great ideas, Jamison!
4 changes:
- AIM-120D1 changed out for AIM-120D3 as the former wasn't working properly so unknown reasons.
- Fuel added to F-35 and F-22
- J-10C FM nerfed to be in line with wiki etc. (finally got around to it).
- Due to more missiles in air at once than last time, needed to phase the spawns.
Otherwise no changes.
Maybe, that is pretty much what I do all the time but obviously I don't share it on YT. Will consider.
Looks like the PL-15 pursues its target better and adjusts better than the AIM-120. Crazy melee nonetheless. Maybe you could do a Blue/Red/Yellow/Green all v all with four different countries that might up the ante even more!
can DCS even support 3 way battles?
PL15 has always over-achieved in DCS. We've never found why, I've looked into this many times.
DCS only really supports two coalitions sadly.
@@grimreapers or maybe PL15 is better than aim 120
That was the actual reason for the Chinese success. The pl15 runs on propaganda in DCS. The 120d3 should be buffed to match if the 15 can't be nerfed.
Can you do S-500 vs. B-21, B-2, F-22 and F-35?
OK
There is only 20 B-2 after the crash at Guam.
That was a fun one today, a great all out brawl. An idea for you: In the video "Army George Shows: What A Viable Chinese Invasion Of Taiwan Could Look Like (WarGames 148) | DCS" we see China successfully invade Taiwan and kill a carrier using its new missile tech and transports flying in behind in the wake. What would an American response look like? Lets say its a few weeks to a month or so later and fighting is continuing on Taiwan. The US wants to get in the fighting and start to squeeze China's economy. I think the next move would be the US shutting down the strait of Malacca and then a battle between the Chinese carrier and the small island bases it's made in the south China sea vs a much larger US force, probably consisting of 2+ carriers. Is that or something similar viable in DCS?
Does the software take into account variences in pilot training and combat experience, the lack of Chinese battle testing of planes and missiles, along with radar capability deficits?
If playing on a gaming laptop, how do you switch between camera angles and views? Also between the camera and map?
Thank you and f you. This has completely taken over my life. So good
China has longer range missiles.
longer range missiles allows for more kills on the initial wave which in tern reduces number of missiles wasted on soon to be dead targets for the second wave.
it's a math thing.
first kills make for a huge advantage in an equal RCS fight.
the f16's with the small loadout should not have been the first to the fight.
again, why do the f16's have T-Pods on??