ANTI-MORMONISM & THE ATONEMENT: A RESPONSE TO BRAD WILCOX
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- čas přidán 24. 08. 2024
- A response to LDS Living's article, "What a Young Man Fascinated with Anti-Mormon Books Taught Me About the Atonement, Repentance," by CES employee, Brad Wilcox.
A more appropriate title for the article should be, "How I Use Jesus to Gaslight Teenagers for Profit."
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Twitter: @ZelphontheShelf / @TheSamspo / @TGilliland789
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I hope you guys realize how much us closeted ex-Mormon teens love and appreciate you.. your videos are my ritual “sabbath day worship” and they honestly help me understand a Mormon mindset vs. the thoughts and feeling I’m currently going through. Please keep making such uplifting videos.. and I love your cats :)
I keep the sabbath and it is lovely. I also love this channel. I'm so glad you left the mormon.
Completely agree
Same here I’m a 17 year old guy and this channel has been my “safe place” for the last few months. I am so grateful that you guys speak the truth about this oppressive and controlling faith. Most of us don’t have the strength to do that on our own👍
I went vegan first then left the church 😂😂 I had an old ward member tell me that I lost the spirit when I stoped eating meat and that’s why I left the church.
Amazing.
That’s hilarious! Don’t drink coffee but chow down on animal flesh that’s known to cause colon cancer and heart disease, besides destroy the environment and cause pain and torture to innocent animals. You made two admirable choices.
I was told out of sincere concern from a loved one after I went vegan- for HEALTH REASONS- that no boy would ever want to marry me if I stayed vegan; And, if I was lucky enough to find a young man who would deign to tolerate my liberal ways, my future in-laws would think I had control issues and a raging mental illness🤷🏽♀️🦕🌱
Four years later, I still don’t do the meat thing... and maybe it’s a good thing i was eventually willing to admit to myself that I’ve never been into boys... so, problem solved?🌈
And it literally says in the word of wisdom to avoid meat 🤦♂️
My dad is currently working through a porn addiction and i completley agree with what sam was saying. That the addiction comes more as a biproduct of the shame thats forced upon people than from the porn itself. (also im friends with rachel A.)
We need some anti-Mormon apologetics. Zelph should a satirical video explaining why the TBMs refuse to accept the truth of anti-mormonism.
This is a solid idea!
I've done some regarding how mind control keeps the people from rationally examining the evidence and also introducing some of the anti-mormon ism stars like Samantha and Tanner ... and I would consider doing a collaborative conversation video with you guys on your Channel or mine on any subject regarding Mormonism that sounds like a good one to discuss....Mormonism is not a Cult Right? Let's Prove it . Compared to real Cults like JW's or Heaven's Gate.
czcams.com/video/n0M-ksorMu4/video.html
Introducing Prominent Anti Mormonism Mormon Truthers and LDS apologist CZcamsrs. part 1
czcams.com/video/WPIJdmDdH2g/video.html
In Depth Introduction to Antimormonism CZcamsrs & our LDS Apologist
Counterparts. on lds.org. etc
czcams.com/video/Gr6fQMUh3zA/video.html.
Mormon Youth Subjected to Cult Mind Control directed by Illuminated LDS Church Leaders
czcams.com/video/TgBtiwt1Qt8/video.html
@Caleb ''refuse to accept the truth of anti-mormonism.'' HOW could ''anti-mormonism'' be truth? Google Book of Abraham debunks anti-LDS Lies You Tube. That video DEBUNKED ALL ANTI-BOOK OF ABRAHAM EFFORTS. Therefore, how do you respond?
+Richard Holmes apparently I spoke too soon and complimenting you from refraining and pushing Paul gregerson's bullshit among this people we are all now stupider for having heard about it from you Richard
Explain how that Paul Gregersen is not right then. If you cannot explain how that Paul is not right then you'll have to admit defeat.
I love that I relate to you guys so much, I was the perfect Mormon. Splits with the missionaries at least once a week, perfect missionary, perfect example of a byui student (which is kind of hard regarding all of their bs rules). I never really read anti-Mormon literature even today. I just don't feel like I needed to put the effort in. Friends say I "got offended" when byui cancelled my major my last year of college without giving me a chance to graduate after having several unkind bishops who blamed me for "sins" I didn't commit as an lgbt but in reality I moved away from an unhealthy environment and was able to see what my life could be like without fighting to justify everything that went against my beliefs. So much healthier mentally now that I am not a member.
Ahh, I see your cat likes to play the "look at my butthole" game too. I always lose that game.
When ever my parents try to pressure me to come back or try to guilt me I come watch one of your guy's videos. You guys are awesome!
I really appreciate your content! My entire family is tbm so this allows me a way to validate my frustrations without getting into arguments with them. Thanks so much for your content! It really does help others who are exmo and struggling💗
You're the reason we do what we do! We're glad it helps
AliBagley Hollingshaus how’s it going nowadays? Everything still the same?
Scientology says the same thing when you present them with "criticism." They say that you have overts (another word for sins) against humanity and the church.
Watching this on my TBM grandparents' wifi is super satisfying.
Brad Wilcox was my bishop at BYU. He was really nice, but after every interview he would call your parents in front of you and tell them how you're doing. It was all positive feedback, and meant to be helpful, but to a 23 year old it felt very infantilizing. He really was a nice guy, though. I was reading the Dune series at the time, and got made fun of by my roommates because after spending the week studying I wanted to spend even more time reading. Bishop Wilcox had a conversation with me about how it was one of his favorite books and we bonded a bit over that.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing.
Called your parents?? What the hell? You may have been part of one of those sweet TBM families and so you were probably close with your mom/ dad. But I kept my parents out of my life as much as possible. To call them up at all, let alone in front of you, and after a priesthood interview is a serious psych game.
Infantilizing at 23?? You bet it was.
By the time I was 23 I was married and had my first kid. (Yes, I know) I can't imagine another authority figure giving a report card to my mommy about my feelings at that age.
I went through foster care and adopted into an lds family. I felt so broken and became so serious. I remember the first time I had fun and was able to let loose and be myself for the first time since going into foster care was when I got tipsy. That's when I realized that my whole personality had basically been stamped out of me
Sam looks like a forest goddess as always and this stage of the growth of Tanner's hair is honestly underappreciated.
Thank you for seeing us ✨
I swear man every time i watch a video from you dudes my day gets better
As an ex-Mormon with a legitimate lazy eye, I really found this video cathartic on Good Friday. 😂🙏🏻 Thank you!
I'm so glad you are still making videos. I started my transition out a couple months ago and you've helped me confirm that I wasn't crazy for doubting the church (as well as have some good laughs). Best to you!
You two should do a podcast.
Noted!
Law of Witnesses
Riley Ockerman all you have to do is not look at the video and it is a podcast, but with the video youve got a choice to go either way, It's all about free agency, don't you know?
Riley Ockerman thats a great name thumbs up on that one
Riley Ockerman personally I tend to alternate from videos that I put lots of visual documentation in showing scriptural and historical contradictions by the brethren, especially on LDS org, another times, I'll just do a rant, which I may, probably. Decide to call. A pod tube on the next go round. And remember to credit you for the new term you made up, I love watching these 2. I always feel better after watching elf on the shelf
I've been told multiple times, by church leaders and my parents, that we need to repent EVERY DAY - even if we don't think we did anything wrong
!!!!!
You look like Carl Sagan.
#MakeScienceSexyAgain
Sign me up for that big bang.
The Mormon Informant we're into Uranus
HAHA holy shit he does. Awesome
I see an event on the horizon involving a black hole.
At the start, the part about putting one's self in other people's shoes, recognizing that people are the product of experience and environment, this is key! I'm an alcohol and drug counselor, this is what I talk about with people every day. Why are you involved with a compulsive pattern of behavior that doesn't serve you? Because you are depressed, which is the result of anxiety, which is the result of expecting things to go poorly, which is the result of THINGS GOING POORLY throughout your life! Experience breeds expectation, which leads to formation of physical, emotional and intellectual responses (because that's all the same thing, I am only one being) and those responses determine your momentum based on current environment and options. I think we need to not only put ourselves in other peoples shoes to be more compassionate and charitable, but also put ourselves in our own shoes once in a while and realize we are doing the best we can, just like everyone else.
Thank you for this comment!
omg your cats have grown so much, they are gorgeous
Tanner, your laugh is wonderful and gives me life
in my experience, talking about masturbation mostly comes up in the context of religion.
i like that it's Sam's new brand. very cute
You are spot on about it’s not anti lit that gets you it’s the scriptures . Yes I loved studying further in LDS sources , I used to love journal of discourses , especially the murderous BY .. hehe . Like most TBMs, I desperately wanted to have my faith validated, I didn’t want to be a casual LDS . I wanted to know the truth of all things.
Yasss! Thank you so much for this brief submersion into reason and independent thought. Living in Salt Lake City you can begin to feel like there aren't like minded people out there. I think that you guys being so young and such a contradiction to the narrative that young people are empty headed narcissists is of SO MUCH VALUE.
Your comments at ~29:00, are so nessisary. Partially due to a Mormon upbringing, I set up unrealistic standards for myself and then have horrible guilt and self talk when I inevitably fall short. Being told that it’s okay to fall short and take things one step at a time is something I needed, thank you.
Good to see a new smack down video from you guys.
Omfg the cats..... rest of the video is very good of course but GOD THOSE CATS!!! I adore
I am addicted to sugar and no one shames for it. So yes. I agree.
I love your idea of the grace of Christ and how that relates to empathy and putting self in others shoes. I'm a christian and I agree, many christians could use that model for their own life and attitude towards others.
I can tell you Brad Wilcox's teen/ younger-person stuff is ABSOLUTELY patronizing. Also major 'trying to be the cool uncle' vibes. He wrote a sex-ed book that, surprise, little Mormon me got my education from. There was a whole section on why masturbation was a horrible sin but how Jesus could make you clean again.
Thank you for being such good people and flicking off the camera when reading people's responses. It shows your deep tremendous values and true love for others.
I agree. He shouldn’t listen to lies and rumors from “anti Mormons”, there is just no reason to. Just pay attention to the “TRUTH” and let the debunking begin! It’s not hard
Brad Wilcocks... the guy who made a name for himself with the ‘Sex is like an apple’ talk back in the day. I recall there was a clip of it that would play all the time in the LDS bookstore I worked at years ago. It basically stated if you ever look at porn (directed at kids), even were you to repent, you would be in the temple one day with your spouse and think about it... then he screams something along the lines of ‘And you will NOT be worthy of eternal life and exaltation!!!!’ Even back then when I was neck deep in Mormonism it truly offended me because it pretty much told kids the atonement meant shit, they would never truly be forgiven, and no matter what they ever did they were fucked, totally contradicting any teachings anywhere on repentance. And it was one of our best sellers... He’s a real gem. Great person to be giving any advice to kids. By the number of books he’s had since it looks like he’s trying damn hard for a calling in the upper echelons of power within the church. I truly hope no one is stupid enough to extend that to him, giving further credence to his damaging points of view.
This is so true. I read every prophet biography the church put out and read VERY deep doctrinal talks about intelligences and the King Follet Discourse on my mission. And they really strengthened my testimony on my mission. I still believe I have a very complete image of church doctrine because of those deep doctrines I learned, but knowing that doctrine made it SO much easier for me to believe in the existence of the second anointing when I heard that podcast. The church will someday realize that we’re smarter today than we were in the 1800’s and even limiting its members education to the scriptures will not protect it from vast amounts of people leaving the church.
Thoroughly enjoying binging your videos in 2024 😁
“this dark being is stroking my penis while in class”
I lost it when he said that!!!
you guys are the best and so funny!! thank you
omg i met brad wilcox at a youth conference.... everyone treated him like a prophet or sumn
One time my bishop told me I would come back to the church once I left the bubble of Utah and kept lecturing me about that. He is definitely wrong
1st, belief isn't a choice. You can fake it and go through the motions, but deep down you'll know Santa... I mean Jesus isn't real.2nd, there is neutral or non-belief. One can believe in Jesus. Or you can believe with certainty that there is NO Jesus. Or just be Atheist and not believe in anything or 'pretend that something is true' even though a claim lacks any evidence. Love the Zelph!
Its so nice you found each other I went through the same de brain washing and research when I was 23.. all by myself . thank you for sharing and making the rest of us feel like we were right x
I am new to your videos and have really enjoyed watching the several I have watched since last night. You guys have a very good rapport and you are both quite witty. I do find it interesting that, in this video, you appeared to be using Jesus to justify atheism, as if "what Jesus actually taught" was completely divorced from religion (esp. Christianity, which Mormonism claims to be). I'd be interested in hearing more about your views on Jesus and your understanding of what he taught, though that's probably outside of the scope of this channel since the majority of those who leave Mormonism do seem to leave as atheists (or agnostics), including myself. (Though that wasn't exactly a change for me; I think I was always agnostic, especially when it came to Mormonism and Joseph Smith, despite having been raised in the church. I didn't actually become a believer until I was almost 37.)
Very nice video guys! Love the Office reference Sam
Did we just become best friends?
I think we may have
What an utter load of CROCK this Brad Wilcox (whoever HE is) is spouting. I would bet ANYTHING that it's totally made up to fit Brad's narrative.
18:30 CATS for Christ!
Thanks for this 🙏🏽💕💫
Masturbation is not a sin! It’s healthy!!
Then things get freaky and Freudian.
Ok Pat... That comment just put a mental image in all your friend's minds... Smile for the mental camera...
⭐️you guys being so funny and introspective and ruthless about this disturbing shit is comforting for me. Thanks for all you do :)⭐️
Bernie is holding a fort down in my heart
Looking back at my own served time in this religion I'd forgotten just how many times they invoke pretend characters like "Satan" who "tempts" us with sex and booze and fancy hairdos and stuff.
“Fancy hair dos”..*that’s* what you want Satan to do for you?
@30:05…to carry your hypothetical further, a great many teenagers who have been told they are a dirty torn dollar bill* because they did some kissing and cuddling will, almost certainly, have sex as soon as possible.
Source..I was a teenager once with parents constantly belittled and insulted me. If I missed or had trouble doing homework it was because i was stupid (Spoiler Alert..I was not).
I was told all the time how shaming it was to have a w**** for a daughter.
I’m sixty and still battle self hatred.
(Edit…*I think most exmos will know that allegory. What’s always struck me as stupid is that that dollar bill, no matter how soiled or torn *is still worth a freakin dollar*!,,
Brilliant, brilliant takes guys. Just brilliant.
I have a guy that calls me Bap for Baphomet and I find it both adorable and badass.
Thumbnail was a clickbait. Shame on you two. ;)
Love how I am getting ministry ads on your videos 😂😂
Wow. He sounds like a really disrespectful pastor. I know he was a bishop, but this is really bad pastoral care.
I'm curious y'all's thoughts on like the binary notion of 'belief in our saviour', I like jesus as a story-book character, like I really like jesus. I don't know whether there's evidence that they were an historical figure. I want to be like jesus, the character, but I don't feel the need to make them my saviour.
Whereas, Muhammad is a well-documented historical figure, and the Qur'an is pretty badass, but none of these people are perfect.
I can attest that I was a jack Mormon when I left to sin. Although, I was already becoming an atheist without needing to not believe Mormonism specifically
I had a Brad Wilcox talk on CD about Joseph and the BoM. I must have listened to it countless times.
I would copy it and give it out to people as a missionary tool. Ugh. TBM me was such a douche.
I hope your divorce process gets over soon. It's so much easier to move on afterwards. Good luck.
Oh it's over, haha. Life is good. :)
I was in the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints and I laft the church they told me not to do something to do and they told me not to do it and I told them tat God told me to do something and I love the truth the video's y'all or saying is truth
Beth: Why don't you wait until you are sober before you make responses on the board. You don't make any sense.
When I left the church I never started drinking Coffee because i hate the taste of it. I have drank alcohol, but I truly don't like it, so I don't drink it. Not all Ex-Mormons drink coffee or Alcohol just because they don't like it. But all my Family is Jack Mormon so I have tasted coffee before I actually became a member of the church. Also there is Alcoholism in my family so I really don't want to go down that road anyway. Just because I am no longer a Christian doesn't mean that I can't be a good person and do good things for myself and my family.
To be fair, I read the CES letter and some other anti-mormon stuff before I even looked at the sources that were available through the church. The church just didn't make sense to me, and their views on the LGBT+ community literally baffled me, so I did look for other people who thought the same and for other information that didn't make sense. So you guys were kind of right, but not was as devoted and 'obedient' as you guys were. Love your content though :)
Classic examples of being enamored with their own virtue.
Not sure about how much you know about BYU but is it true that some visiting academics come and find their tenures rapidly shortened when they are caught out by the honour code?
Cats. Especially ginger cats!
Just googled Brad Wilcox because I thought I might've taken a class by him, but instead I found out this video is the first video your get when you search "Brad Wilcox Mormon" in google!!!
I love you guys!Iam not saying it in a fake way!!I was in this cult till I was 39 years old.Iam happier than ever!!!
Kitties! Also good content
The CZcams video Ceasers Messiah is a great video regarding Jesus. Really opened my eyes!!
i'd like you all to know that while i was still a tbm our seminary class had a zoom fireside with brad wilcox. It was so bad. He talked about how republicans are true christians and how even if your'e democrat god can forgive you, as well as many many other just dumb bullshit things. The next day in seminary our teacher looked at us and went "... yeesh, huh?" our seminary teacher agreed that brad wilcox was a mess. (granted our seminary teacher is really cool, he's just very unfortunatley caught up in the cult :(
!!!!!
I keep getting ads for the lds corporation after binge watching your and other exmo channels. stoooppp CZcams lol 🙄🙄🙄
20:44 You push your cat!
lol so casually
this story is a little different from the way you told it where I have read it out of a diary and it was not a mob that was organized but it's states that the bishop admired this girl as being rather Buxom as it described her funny thing I was actually thinking about this in the last day or two and he's tried to send the kid on a mission a couple of times but he didn't want to go they were going to get married and it says he invited him over to The Bishop's office or something in the chapel and he did have a couple buddies line and wait there he gave the kid one more chance to accept the mission call he said no and they castrated him and yes he did nail is nads to the wall his name was Bishop snow as I recall and I believe it took place in or around Manti and there were comments supposedly that people farther away said that they should start disciplining the Young Folks the way that they did in that case I guess they must have had rebellious youth there too maybe they were noticing mind control as you two are doing such a good job at
I loved the video, but I gotta say I really enjoyed the cat shenanigans~ xDD
Also, that intense guilting? I feel that - got a LOT of that in my conservative christian upbringing. I thought I was a terrible person because I kept sinning and needing to 'repent'. SO much happier now as an atheist.
(Cats AND dogs~!! Used to be very much a dog person, but cats have grown on me - I just don't 'read' them as well as I do dogs.)
I missed this
WE MISSED YOU
32:10 - 33:00 cute Kitty legs!
Love this! Um... I've lived through all the spin. All the trite phrases, all the Kimball 'Miracle of Forgiveness' that teaches you to hate yourself if you're not perfect. Kimball's perfectionism that never gives you a break and says you get one chance at a mistake, and it is achievable if you try. Now all past teachings may or may not be doctrine. Yet we know for sure Brad isn't doctrine. So why are we even listening to him? Even tho he is Christlike and humble if you ask him. And cross-eyed on occasion, depending on source and context. In the future, it'll be difficult to determine if Brad is doctrinally cross-eyed or not.
I love your cats and dog. ❤
We hope our content will eventually be 100% animals
Zelph On the Shelf Now I want to see your pets renact the prophets, and you have a voice over they play fight with each other.
""Somehow I Manage" - Michael Scott" - Sam
Don Jr, not Eric.
I'm not a cat person, but yours is pretty cool. I liked the video too even though Sam doesn't care anything about outfit continuity. LoL 😋
omg yes new upload :0
omg yes new comment :0
omg yes new reply :0
I'm still Mormon but seeing yals videos always makes me ask myself "why?"
Definitely dogs btw.. ;)
+Zelph On the Shelf hey what is that shit some kind of reformed Egyptian if so what on Earth is the translation? oh God please don't let it be the universal sign for Elohim smiling while he's jacking
@Dodger Game Knock, knock, you home? WHY are you all avoiding Paul's videos?
I'll prove that you anti-Mormons cannot back up what you say. Google Book of Abraham debunks anti-LDS Lies You Tube. You cannot counter that video from Paul Gregersen, that video from Paul Gregersen DEBUNKED THEE EGYPTOLOGIST'S. If you cannot refute that video then that'll prove that you anti-Mormons cannot back up what you say. Will be standing by Dodger Game.
Richard Holmes I can't imagine being that delusional. Is it fun thinking your arguments are infallible?
Natalie Woodruff My Uncle Ronald, C.E.O Columbia Artist's Management New York New York "The L.D.S Church is a dangerous terrorist group!" There is a U.S. Constitution. Susan
Yeah my mom tried to get me to read that book...
Will you guy check out or collaborate with the Utah Outcasts? I think they'll want to hang out with more Outcasts!
Thank You !
On behalf of non-Mormon Wilcoxes everywhere, I apologize for this Brad dude
I’m a Christian who smokes weed, is BI and supports the LGBT 🏳️🌈 community!!
We need more Christians like you!
The real meaning of Christ is LOVE, at least that's what my Greek Orthodox Grandfather alway's taught. Susan
Patrick Leyerle so many good qualities about you. Hopefully you’ve gotten rid of that Christianity holding you down.
I watched the Ex-Mormon Foundation Zelph on a Shelf 2016 and it made me feel sad. But rocky relationships with TBM parents will cause many to relapse back into Mormonism.
cuinn837 What made you feel sad?!
I may be wrong, but it looks to me as though someone didn't stick. I don't know much about what happened; I'm just taking an intuitive guess.
cuinn837 ? Connor didn’t relapse back into Mormonism if that’s what you’re thinking ha
Sorry. I probably have him mixed up with a Mormon who did go back. Many do relapse because of trouble with their families or because they lost their friends and want them back. I follow a lot of ex-Mormon stories, and after a while it's easy to get the story of one mixed up with the life of another. I don't have the best memory in the world. Keep up the good shows!
"What an idiot!"
"Oh well, we're carrying on."
🤣🤣
Somehow I manage... Everybody likes the guy who offers them a stick of gum
Entirely the same with JWs! haha!
EIGHT midroll ads? Jesus fuck that's too many.
Agreeeeeeeed CZcams places them automatically, we have to go in and delete a bunch but didn’t know about this one!
Not to defend Mormonism at all, but as far as paying for the Ensign subscription goes, it's only for the physical printed edition and (at least back when I was in the church) it's only $12/yr. They say it's to cover the cost of printing and postage. The online copy is always free for everyone. Again, not trying to defend Mormonism, just trying to clarify a point.
Good point! I don’t think they’re trying to profit off the Ensign directly.
It's so sad. "Worthiness" is an absolute _mind rape!_
These are good, but please debate a Mormon, please, please, please. I'll donate 50. Come, everyone. Donate money if they can debate someone like three Mormons.
At around 4:00 that's such a good question that is a big reason I left christianity i still follow the bible but christianity isn't in there really. It was always supposed to be about love and grace and taking care of the widows and orphans
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you for this is the law and the prophets. Matthew 7:12.
The law (torah) and the prophets is the actual word of God (tanakh) Jesus says here that this is what it was always all about. Christians usually don't think this way.
A good scripture for mormons is duetoronomy 13 where it explains clearly not to let a false prophet live. All prophets and teachers were tested by this passage
Wow, it's been decades since I had anything to do with the Mormons but this Wilcox dude is screwed up.
Hey do you guys want to hang out and get drunk sometime?
Yes. DM us on Twitter
Oh my god yes
Are both of you intimate?
Yes. Just not with each other. Next question
RS Leaders .
I would suggest reading "Nailed" by David Fitzgerald. - *if* you haven't already. Not because I want to talk you out of believing Jesus existed, but rather to broaden the perception that all of the things we attribute to Jesus may not have happened any more than the plagues in Exodus, or Noah's Ark. There is a theory I read 20 years ago that during the gap in the history of Jesus in the bible (when they escaped to Egypt that they kept going to the fringes of India and thus Jesus could have been influenced by Buddhist teaching. Again, I am not saying these are credible or should change your views about dudes that lived so long ago we can't really confirm they existed or they didn't. But please consider the historicity of King Arthur and that legend is much younger than that of Jesus or any prophet in the book of Genesis.
This made me want to listen to Pet Shop Boys' "It's a Sin" 😆