Mike and Darren: Unplugged ep.8
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
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This is the official CZcams channel of Dr. Michael Sugrue.
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Dr. Michael Sugrue earned his BA at the University of Chicago and PhD at Columbia University.
I love listening to these conversations. Three sages imparting their wisdom to our fallen age. With a drinking horn!
Engaging with this channel is the version of my "university"
after 7 years of college and teaching for 25 years, I'd say that's great.
Really appreciating the amount of content guys!
I love listening to you all, but Sugrue particularly strikes a chord with me, I've now watched all his lectures available on CZcams (some of them several times), and hearing that his lectures on Plato were done in 94.. the year I was born, took it to another level of appreciation for me- every generation has their heroes
I think his lectures on Nietzsche, Marx and Don Quixote are some of the best lectures I've ever listened to.
@@mini_worx I loved his Wittgenstein lecture.
@@georgebradford418 indeed. You can tell from that lecture that Wittgenstein touched a chord with Surgue.
Pascal is my personal favorite. It's perfectly digestible for all my friends as well
He’s a very gifted professor!
Dr. Sugrue, I came across your channel about a week or two ago. I saw your lecture on Machiavelli. I'd like to say those lectures are profound. You did an incredible job and have produced some truly good work(s). You're an impressive man. God bless you, for whatever it is worth.
God bless us all.
Even better.
I love replaying Michael and Darren's lectures on the drive home from work. I love these conversations, you guys are awesome - keep it up!
Going through the lectures, learning so much, laughing, becoming perplex, feeling illuminated and inspired, trying to read ( or listen) to the books discussed was a kind af school I couldn't attend otherwise as a mother of three, but I come now to say a huge thank you to all of you generously involved in this! God bless you all!
In short: Thank You.
At length: I have started and then deleted this comment about 10 times over the last 2 months, because I didn’t feel like I would be able to articulate how much this series has meant to me over the last few years. A friend of mine stumbled on Mike’s 94 lectures at the beginning of the COVID lockdown- a period of time that felt both terrifying and banal. Those lectures opened up so many long discussions at his kitchen table, and opened me to a world of classic literature. I’ve since read 30+ classics in the last 2 years including the astonishing Magic Mountain, which feels like a montage of so many of these lectures. All in all, you have helped open a portal, and I know I speak for thousands of others when I say: thank you, and sláinte.
I just wanted to express my gratitude for making these brilliant and important conversations accessible to everyone
I think the three amigos should have someone like Dr Lee T. Pearcy on one of their unplugged sessions. Pearcy is a life long scholar and classicist who (fairly) recently provided a concise yet compendious history of classical education and the humanities in America in “The Grammar of Our Civility”.
“Piety is doing honor to God by being of service to men.” Great thought. Reminds me of a famous Martin Luther sermon, “God doesn’t need your good works, but your neighbor sure does.” A highly religious thought. I am of the opinion no purely secular man could reach this by reason alone.
Without a Christian background?
No
Obligatory secular humanist riposte: We are all susceptible to suffering and sickness, despair, loss, etc., based solely on the inescapable (human) reality that we are all bound for death. So why shouldn't that motivate (reasonably) enlightened humans to understand our mutually shared fate and attempt to strive for a shared decency among ourselves? Who are all fallible and prone to error by our very nature. I have no issue with people finding peace, comfort or purpose through religious belief; sometimes I'm even envious of those who sincerely believe it and abide by it, and the strength it clearly gives them. Necessary for moral and rational behavior? I think not. It seems much more like a myth, made possible only by those already operating in the service of an even greater myth.
@Gom Talismano
Take out 2 000 years of Christianity and what do you have?
No one cared about the poor previous to Christianity
Stop being absurd
@@Michael-yg1qd Find God
@@floresdta I already have. It's in the family and friends whom I love and who love me. In the sun that shines on my face each day (precious little there is at the moment). And in my abiding love for the humanities. I want for little else, save for a few beers and freshly topped off pipe.
Thanks, once again gentlemen. If the humanities get lost, I can’t think of any group of people who have made a greater or more effective effort to leave a trail of crumbs on the Internet to help them to find their way.
Hey Dr. Sugrue. I'm glad to see you are still producing for us. I often access your older stuff. Thanks guys.
Great conversation!
We miss you a lot Dr Sugrue!
this is just wonderful
Great content! I thoroughly enjoy these.
Exceptional. Please, keep going.
This is awesome. Thank you all so much.
Thank you for this video gentlemen.
Great conversations. I'd love to hear a discussion concerning the thinking and writing of Leo Strauss and other forms of illiberal right thinking.
instant watch every time
thanks docs (& Genevieve)
what you are doing is meaningful and helpful, thank you
Dear Professor Sugrue. I hope that your channel is part of the proof that the humanities are alive and kicking, but universities are dead institutions still stumbling along like hyper-rich zombies. I watch only philosophy, video essays and cultural theory on youtube and I find our world's best teachers here. Thank you for your efforts.
Thank you for these discussions. This channel is itself part of the solution to the problem of the humanities. If you could, please discuss the problems that Positivism and Historicism pose to the humanities. Also, if you could touch on the philosophical underpinnings needed for the study of Man as set apart from the rest of nature that would be great.
What a great discussion! God bless you! Michael Sugrue, I’ve learned so much from you, you’re a dear friend and professor although I have never met you before! I’ll keep you in my prayers.
Thank you
awesome talk
Brilliant again from the learned gents!! I particularly enjoyed the “finale” of Darren and Peter with the game of the century!? I have to quote here the great human being himself.. Bobby Fischer.. “.. it’s not about psychology, it’s about the moves..” BF 1972. A brilliant mind. Michael will pick up on CGJ’s..”thinking and feeling” Cannot wait for the next one!
Great! Thank you!
“ Piety is doing honour to God by being of service to man” this is the core right there by professor Sugrue.
It reminds me of a old quote by a well known Dutch officer in The Salvation Army, Majoor Bosshardt, which goes like:
'God dienen is mensen dienen’
('To serve God is to serve people’)
Delightful.
A parallel I see is that the great disruption of the printing press is even less than the great disruption of the internet. Then everyone had access to read books affordably, now everyone has access, not only to read, but _publish_ affordably (in essence). This power, the masses thinking their opinions triumph over time-tested thoughts over centuries because they have a million followers and 100K likes, and the human psychology is affected by such instant feedback, it can easily push a person further and further into utter nonsense.
I literally stopped what i was doing to click on this.
Thank you so much for comment
Peter’s suggestion about farms reminds me of Carl Bridenbaugh’s 1962 address to the American Historical Association.
Addresing Professor Field's point on "the ambition to learn everything is gone" around 31:00... i did read some days ago that technology has been another (kind of Freudian) hit on the Ego.. maybe since Gary Kasparov's chess match against computer "Deep Blue"...since then, computers has seem to us like they eventually will solve all the issues for us... i see a general posture of "why try to reach for the limits (as the romantics did)?... the machines will do it better eventually"..in short, our mind is not the highest anymore, machines are... on one side we try to imitate machines and achieve "machine-like milestones" also having machine-like ideals (wich does not suit us by the way), and on the other side it just make us depressed in a deep way.
Mr sugrue, if the chance arises, would you be willing to have a conversation or podcast with jordan peterson on the current state of universities?
Yes, but you must remember that I am too ill to travel.
@@dr.michaelsugrue wish you well professor. Ive seen Peterson have debates/talks through the internet. It'd be interesting to hear what you both could debate about.
@@dr.michaelsugrue I’m sorry to hear that Please take care and I hope the best for your health and family!!
@@dr.michaelsugrue would you be interested on going on a mutual friend's podcast? Please check out the Pangburn channel where we interviewed people like Jordan Peterson, Noam Chomsky, Sam Harris and Lawrence Krauss, and Michio Kaku! I have recommended them your podcast and everyone was extremely excited at the prospect of having your company. please let me know if a time suits you so Travis Pangburn can personally accommodate you thank you in advance for your time and for the videos that inspired me to get into philosophy.
Nice!
Love to hear your guys thoughts on Swedenborg
44:42 I second that, Dr Field, as someone who is only a high school grad and living the sheltered, comfortable life. That can only or will only build character and build strength of character. Excellent podcast, Darren, Michael and Field; the power sagacious trio. I was never beaten or scolded as a child at least not intensely or as bad as other kids (now grown adults or teachers) have had it. Nor was I bullied in school because I got lucky and kept a calm low profile and was alienated and isolated though parts of that was almost largely self-imposed. I had no desire to speak to anyone much less peers or old friends. You can only imagine or conclude how much that played into and built arrested development, learned helplessness and 'victimizing' myself and being defiant against my guardians, my parents. Against and in the face of authority.
Everyone now looks for the eternal ghastly evil boogeymen to scapegoat and never learn or build strength and character. That includes the post-modern left and progressives and identity politics. They really just want to ban and abolish all forms and manners of jobs and that includes banking and commercial and consumer activity. It's absurd. If anything, instead of parental and school workshops, we need Book clubs and elegant and studied/studious teachers and readers and authors that have also done back breaking labor.
I’m an anthropology PhD candidate at an R1. Not once in my career as a graduate student has there been good-faith discussions on epistemology that aren’t mired in assertions of white supremacy and colonialism. I thought (naively) that coming from a poor white family I would find a space that could transcend identity politics and I wouldn’t have to justify my existence by some idealized personal mythology. It’s been a lonely journey. There are no jobs for me in academia. It is social fact.
Btw. If anyone wants a postdoctoral student with work in the digital, semiotics, and kinship. Hit me up!
It occurs to me that the financialization of the academy created this perpetual straw man that works effectively at radicalizing faculty towards the extreme end of the antithesis of the institution’s class structure.
I feel ya. Please, hang in there. Your talent will come to the right place at the right time.
@@historicusjoe121 thanks for the encouragement, even that is lacking these days. I really appreciate this space!
As a twenty something philosophy major, hearing you all talk makes me hopeful. I think sometimes I must be the only person in school who actually reads any literary books, full stop, never mind reading outside the curriculum. Most of my peers don't know how to read seriously, they skim the required passages and crank out deeply unoriginal papers. Our faculty rubberstamps these students if they mention feminism, cultural appropriation, racism, sexism, etc. Seriously, my professor stood up and said on the first day of one of my classes that he and some grad students had discredited Nietzsche, and proven him wrong, and so from here on out he would no longer be taught. After all, said my prof, Nietzsche was a racist, and so shouldn't be taught.
So of course I went out and bought all his books and have now read most of them. The hubris to declare that Nietzsche was "finished" ... astonishing!
It's a factory that makes a fortune on privileged international families. I don't know what to make of the humanities except to say that from my perspective it appears to be increasingly like extended summer camp for rich kids to learn aristocratic etiquette, which at this point amounts to "marin county hippies sitting in a hot tub", typically discussing how racist and unjust those Southerners are. North American blindfolds anyone?
Try coming from a working class background like me and explaining a philosophy major.
Also I just read The Dawn Of Everything and got a kick out of that take.
*Hope For The Humanities in Education*
2:12 The Charge: The West Is Sinful.
True. However: This is _not unique and not constrained only to The West.
3:51 Lets add/subtract/adjust approach vs Lets RESET, Lets Completely Reform, etc.
6:00 We study The West since we live in The West.
We study The West because the major modern-era achievements are lead by The West.
7:25 Everybody studies where they live.
7:55 Alan Bloom on "The School of Resentment."
*Addressing Failure*
9:15 Self-Loathing.
9:47 "The West has not lived up to our higher ideals."
10:25 "There are no bad dogs and bad children, only bad owners and bad adults."
11:23 Kids are always a little crazy, trying to figure out the world they are coming to learn.
*Renaissance Era 1500s-Doctrinal Idealism 1700s-Craziness of 1800s and 1900s*
15:00 Patronage to study at university, The Printing Press spreading knowledge further than before. 17:10 Wycliffe and Hus. 17:53 Machiavelli.
18:25 Commercial Revolution. Power Drives People Crazy.
19:02 Pluralist Toleration.
20:17
21:00 French Revolution distorted politics and the ruling elite.
22:46 The US is going through Anti-Westernism
24:16 "Why should the Czech Republic feel sorry for Colonialism?"
24:31
"The Attempt to abolish The Past is futile.
And, tearing down the remnants of the past will not change the future.
What will change the future is facing up to the facts of the past,
and then recognizing that we can do better,
provided we tame our arrogance and try to improve the world gradually in a piecemeal way, in an ongoing fashion, imperfectly,
Rather than abolishing the past and starting again from year 0."
27:21 Is it an educator's job to heal the world? It is not to redress historical grievances.
28:52 Why do people who sign up for the job not only hate the job but want to abolish the job?
29:30 Whiting-Nations. White Oppression.
34:46 Universities taught Classics.
35:20 Ideological Infiltration began in the 1960s. Think Tanks.
36:12 Internet University.
37:12 Administrators are the highest paid people on Campus.
Adults Enable/Discipline Children.
*The New SJWPostmodernist Left*
1960s - It began
1980s - It is growing
2020s - It is a problem
39:00 The Moving definition of what is Left Wing and what is Right Wing. They don't know what they lost, what they are missing.
41:03 Moses was denied entrance to the Promised Land.
41:28 Frustrated Identity Politics People.
- Presumption of Guilt "There is something wrong with you, and I am so great."
42:25
42:48 Late 80s/early 90s The word "Workshop" enters the language.
43:37 Parenting Workshop.
44:36 Farming.
Living with Tragedy and Death.
*The Often Repeated (Blame-Game)*
45:38 Scapegoating/Sacrificial Lamb.
University of Texas at Austin Texas.
47:05 Ask Unpopular Questions
"How is The Past Synonymous with Evil?"
Universal Humanity, Individuality, Struggle/Pain, Love.
Living through history and problems.
49:20 We are unclean.
51:45 Euthyphro, Piety, God Love Virtue.
Piety - Doing honor to God by being of service to man.
53:40 God is Man's Helper.
54:24 "You gotta live through life." (hehe well of course)
55:35 (One Good Crumb of Truth is fulfilling :) )
56:45 Chess' Game of The Century.
Love the statement by Dr Sugrue to the effect that “Piety is doing honor to God by being of service to mankind” essentially piety is practicing the humanities. That should be stamped above the department entrance.
I think when Mike was talking about the major centers of civilization, I had the thought that most civilizations have not tried to maintain the dignity and heritage of opposing civilizations, they were mainly trying to sustain themselves. There was no ethical attachment to being dominant, it only secured further survival. Now western civilization is struggling to be dominant and compassionate at the same time.
Yes, when we inadvertantly fall into the spirit of professor mangle, how to we come back to the frontier and continue the heartfull inquiry.
You can tell Michael is a man who has been forced to witness the second collapse of Rome before his very eyes.
darren's point about the 17th century is really good. the canon is contingent; so are its fortunes.
Would be lovely to hear a philosophical discussion about AI and the future of humanity!
Perhaps Rene Girard’s theory of the Scapegoat could provide us with some answers to the abundance of ressentiment we see in our day?
As a 19 year old premedical student with serious interest in western literature and philosophy, what’s the best way to go about self studying this material? The Western Canon is so daunting that it’s hard to imagine how to get started, especially when a good undergraduate education in this field is hard to come by these days.
Thank you so much for comment
A used book store in a college town has many copies of the various readings from university programs.
Start with the greeks
Honestly I'd just pick up some Shakespeare, he's the goat of all Western Lit
Focus on your premed to medical. Graduate. Make money. Afford the time and luxury to collect books (you can find a great introduction by just researching the books on this channel) and read them.
Hehe droogies... that's sweet, it took me back to the days with my droogies for a moment...
It’s crazy that Augustinian thought is still with us to this very day - and perhaps more prevalent than ever before. While society and education tries to reject the inherent flawed nature of mankind, we also more than ever adhere to the idea of Original Sin.
How do you do Sugrue?
See what happened? Nature,ie the cat,walks into the conversation… picture freezes… cat is gone when picture comes back online… Nature edited out? Too much control? 😉
A much necessary dialogue. Thanks! Really enjoying these! 🙏🏼
“That’s a Homer run, Fellas” -Socrates 412 BCE
What is meant by home run in this context ? I can't figure it out
Three sharp guys
Darren you look more handsome than when you were younger
I sent my dad this video and he replied "you should also check out this guy Michael Sugrue..."
Last thing from my perspective. It has become common in the last two years in my department for incoming graduate students taking the pro seminar sequence to refuse learning the canon because “racism”. It’s such a cop out. They learn nothing but garner all kinds of cultural capital.
It totally is about enabling bad behavior
'Hard people make hard times. I've seen the meanness of humans till I don't know why God ain't put out the sun and gone away.'
Outer Dark
Cormac McCarthy
I made a big comment on the previous video but part of the issue in my view is nobody can afford to go into humanities. It’s STEM or die out there. Code or the curb. Young people going into student debt for 30 years need a way to pay that off.
Knowing it’s there but choosing to remain ignorant is simply unacceptable
It’s funny, during the part where they talk about alternatives to the current state of Humanities education, none of them mentions the Great Courses! Which is how I learned the classics, reading the books on my own and then listening to professors like Peter and Darren! Although with that said, I know the GCs aren’t as great as they once were, back when the lectures weren’t homogenized into 30 minute clips and there was more of an emphasis on letting the great lecturers do their thing, but the best of them are still among the greatest learning experiences of my life and these guys were a big part of it.
Dr. Pete I believe mentions the GC books a couple times.
What about "The question of technology" M. Heidegger.
Sugruvian is a cool word
you need to be an individual as well as being part of the collective
I am very interested in the problem of "does God like good things because they are good or are they good because God likes them?"
Thank you so much for comment
Al-Ghazali or Aquinas? God loves what is good and right because it is good and right. God as reason, not will.
’Good’ and ’right’ are much older than god. God envies them!
Older than atemporal, God envies anything that has a humorous representative.
@@dr.michaelsugrue Humor is a serious business. That’s why he has billions of hilarious representatives himself. Just like good and right do. Luther didn’t want middlemen, but became one anyway.
"Piety is doing honor to God by being of service to men". Judaism says this succinctly as well with the term, "Kiddush Hashem". I wish Michael had more time to elaborate regarding his 'crumb', someone please tell me what he meant.
Is it really possible to become a " philosopher King" in current times ?
I don't know. I'm not one so how would I recognize a P/K if he walked up and shook me by the hand? How would I distinguish between a real P/K from somebody who fraudulently or madly claims to be a P/K but is not?
@@dr.michaelsugrue what can a 19 years old do to become a "Philosopher King "?
At 19 it is impossible to be wise, the best teachers can expect at your age is that you should be clever.
Consider becoming good before becoming perfect.
Mike's comment at 42:24 on the Augustinian sense of human limitation and the Rousseauean notion of "I'm so great" instantly reminded me of Thomas Sowell's A Conflict of Visions, which lays out two opposing "visions" - the "constrained" and the "unconstrained" - which he sees as the fundamental presuppositions on human nature that underlie all surface level, political divisions. The constrained vision is defined in a very similar way to Augustinian notion, as the belief that human beings are fundamentally flawed and require some level of institutional intervention to temper those flaws, hence "constrained," and the unconstrained vision is defined as the belief that human beings are essentially good, and institutions only serve to distort and oppress this good nature. Sowell even cites Rousseau's idea that "man is born free but everywhere in chains" as the primary example of this belief. He expands upon the latter vision in his work The Vision of the Anointed, and what he describes in that work is not too dissimilar from what Darren talked about with academics who seek to go out and "heal the world" (27:44). I just thought that might have been interesting to point out.
I hadn't listened all the way through before I wrote this and lo and behold Darren mentions The Vision of the Anointed at 47:46, lol
You are correct
We can say the prevalent thoughts in Western high culture speaks on the behalf of “all” men, that it speaks to the joys and struggles of everyone, but we know that’s not true at all. The rejection of the humanities seems to be the rejection of aristocracy.
Can someone tell me how come Dr Sugrues voice became so husky compared to his soft voice in his old lectures on CZcams?
Cancer and its meds
@@dr.michaelsugrue hoping you get better professor
If your a Humanities professional then this is a problem, unemployment,...not so much for the rest of us.
this anime rules
We live in Herbert Marcuse's world...
neat
I wouldn't want to save the campus. My first week at UConn in 06, a 19 year old freshman was dragged 100 ft underneath a car by a drunk visitor. Half the people on campus on the weekends aren't from the school. Over half the classes were taught by other students and people who speak poor English, making learning complex math equations far more difficult. I don't think it's a very good model or creates a proper environment. Of course that's the case with most things.
Imagine douglas murray and jordan peterson also being part of this conversation !
QUESTION! @Michael Sugrue
@25:48 As I am a great admirer of Oscar Wilde, I’m really interested in that. And I would like to know what you think about this?
You all say, that we have arrived at the „cutting wit“ of the cynic that „knows the worth of everything, but not the value of it“ (speaking with Wilde). But Oscar Wilde has neither seen the first, nor the second world war, although a son of his died in one of them: what do you all think would‘ve changed about him and the kind of humour that he has left behind for us, if he did? I do see the parallels that you were speaking of, but the thing that has impacted us, is not what has influenced him. And I sometimes wonder about that. I can‘t imagine that this wouldn‘t have left any influence on him.
At first I saw these scholars as the Sex Pistols, but now, I see them as the Titanic Orchestra.
How ironic the Kasparov immortal in the age of engines and when it is being perceived that the humanities are dead.
I feel like Mike and Peter are talking about two different things while Darren mediates. The prompt is “why the humanities are in decline,” but the two of them understand that prompt differently, while Darren, funny enough, sees the different approaches and has the impossible task of herding these two.
Peter and Darren need to let Michael do 90% of the talking, and stop interrupting. "Piety is doing honor to God by being of service to men." Agreed! Because God IS the good, and being of service to his creation does indeed do Him, perfect goodness, honor.
I’m having a bit of difficulty understanding what is the premise, claim, or topic in this conversation! However, for what I understand Humanities studies the nature of societies and culture. Therefore, Humanities will depend on many factors, and definitely religion has a stake on the type of society and culture we grow in. Certainly, since the Age of Enlightenment and reason with Science as the main tenet, western thinking has shifted towards achieving an advanced society based on logical reasoning, free of superstition and ignorance!
What should be said of a man who has terminal cancer and still drinks alcohol?
Western literature, music and philosophy are not the enemy
Heidegger was a philosopher. He was a card carrying Nazi. The Nazis are the enemy.
The combined brainpower between these three is akin to nuclear fusion.
I'm sure it took a crack-team of theoretical physicists to unravel the logistics and mitigate all the probable outcomes of assembling these boys
To reinforce your comments on ‘CZcams university’ consider that very few of us listening are students at the universities you gentlemen are associated with. After a few hours this video will surpass a thousand views, after a couple of months it will have reached tens of thousands. This channel has 137,000 subscribers and will continue to grow even if you stop publishing content. More importantly, your viewers have different ideological persuasions yet share a pre-political loyalty to the preservation of philosophy, history, and art.
Homerun.
This new generation is out of control. You have 20-30 yr olds with minds that of 14 year olds. The damage is done (bad parenting plus social media, technology). From here on is a rapid regression.
You shall learn to love your crooked neighbor with your crooked heart or run naked from loves thrashing floor. Cleaned it up with a little sufi.
Let Rumi be Rumi. Auden doesn't need cleaning.
I definitely think the humanities in the West needs to become less Eurocentric for the simple fact that we no longer live in the unipolar moment. The less we know more about humans in the rest of the world, the less useful the humanities become to it and the society that sustains it. @Peter We can’t let anything fail immediately; we can only let it all fail eventually 😄
Academia is built on the Western Tradition. How can it be anything but that?
@J J a more cosmopolitan one
@@Diplomastronaut it's up to the rest of the world to try to get to the level of past European philosophers and join the debate.
29:05
"We have some prodigious cases of arrested development on campus. People who are old enough to know better are constantly trying to validate the proposition that they really haven't aged and they don't sound like Marin County hippies in a hot tub."- EPIC "Sugrueism".
I'd like to see how this all applies to contemporary culture
A serious discussion of contemporary philosophy needs to happen
Especially by these men
Augustian fragility
Brilliant!
200 grand 😮. Well that's very understandable. Isn't it great that we can educate ourselves using this device in our hand.
47:16 -47:41 excellence!!
43:05 Segrue nails it