Is A Zip Tie A Legal Trigger Lock? A Firearms Lawyer Explains
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- čas přidán 24. 10. 2020
- This video looks at a common myth/internet argument about whether a zip tie counts as a trigger lock in Canada.
All comments for information only. Do not take anything as legal advice--if you have a legal issue, contact a lawyer directly so that you can received advice tailored to your situation. All views expressed are solely those of the creator.
Links:
Patreon: / runkleofthebailey
Discord: / discord
I've seen a number of your videos and I'm impressed. They are well thought out, well reasoned, and you don't talk down to us non-legal professionals. Well done.
The fact that you're an Edmontonian....well.....that's just surprising. Signed: A Calgarian ;)
OMG the Calgary/Edmonton rivalry even hits utube ... love it ... a displaced Calgarian
@@robwebster867 it's all in good fun
I was pretty sure he said that he resided in Calgary in one video, maybe I am incorrect.
"I own lots of zip ties" Ian flexes
Loving your videos. Extremely informative. Its amazing seeing an actual lawyer being transparent with the law in a public manner.
Would love to see a video on gun rooms and the legal parameters around them when it involves both restricted, non-restricted and ammunition.
I strongly agree with you about being informative!
About Gun Room, he already did czcams.com/video/6lowop2svZw/video.html
Wouldnt that be a kick in the pants if someone got caught on that and then in court while the crown is making their arguement they hold up your firearm with their zip tie on it to render it safe.
Yes and they would argue it to the very end. They are the crown and the law applies differently.
@@jerenahw Exactly, but EVERY firearm i have received from a Licensed dealer was secured with the trigger pulled back with a zip tie. Actually, most producers ship it that way to the stores lol.
Those combo and key lock trigger locks can be overcome with a pen, stick it on the indent on the side of the lock, press and you are golden.
@@williamblaney3316 I purchased a hand gun on line earlier this year. It shipped from the store in Ontario to BC in a cardboard box with no trigger lock of any sort on it. I don't know how they are legally able to do that.
@@beer1for2break3fast4 They are in violation of the Firearms Act. If you didn't have a trigger lock to place on the firearm immediately upon opening the box, a knock on the door may ruin your day (or years). I'd call the store to let them know the position they put you in. They can deny it but you are in possession of the firearm and are vulnerable. I'd be interested in Runkle's opinion on this.
I would pay for a seat in that courtroom! Lol Did you know that Crown attorneys have to take a special class after law school? It's called "jumping through hoops professionally." 🤪
Great videos! Thank you for putting in the time to make these. Most people have to learn your advice the hard way.
Thanks for watching!
One law for me....One law for thee.... Being canada, I think that we're all used to this by now. Perhaps a video about how to determine which law applies to you:
Are you White? See law A
Are you native? See law B
Are you religion 1? See law C
Are you religion 2? See law D
Are you a private citizen? See law E
Are you a member of the rcmp? See law F
Are you a member of the liberal party? See law G
And so on....
You missed French speaking Francophone, as well as non-French speaking Francophone. I’m one such “special” group and have the baptism legal ID to prove it, (that’s right if you resided in Quebec and were baptized you can have legal government ID from this that never expires 🤪).
Male....female.....2,975,459 (and counting) other gender. Rich....poor....middle class... are you Don Cherry or whoever that dungeon face dude from CTVs "the social" is? Only spoiled rich morons can wear blackface at LEAST 3 times, grope people no prob....etc
This could go on forever lol
Are you an Albertan, see law H
@@CL-pe4ll r/onejoke
@@CL-pe4ll But yeah I agree with your other points
Great work Ian! I enjoy the information you provide and have recommended your site to several of my friends. I would hope one day you explore the storage issue as it pertains to "remote". I don't think there is a definition of the word contained in the F.A.? I live in Northern Ont. in a very rural area and have had, on many occasions, bears in the yard. I'm sure there are many folks who keep a rifle or shotgun unlocked and handy for the off chance it may be needed for personal or property protection, but I have often wondered how this would be looked at from the legal viewpoint of being remote?
You just keep on rollin' out great vids! How about a vid about "Having a lawyer on retainer" & how that really works or doesn't. I think a lot of viewers would like to learn more about that. Thanks
A combination trigger lock with the combination set to 0-0-0 complies with the law?
Of course.
that's even more unsafe than a zip tie
In Rescue, a Subject I studied for 30 Years, a Pair of Bolt Cutters are often referred to as “a Universal Key”, because it can Open virtually Any Padlock.
Heh. Would have guessed a Halligan, if you're going to talk about a universal key. ;)
Thanks for another very informative video. Truly appreciate your time and effort in making these videos. Many thanks. Please keep them coming.
It would appear that the Criminal Code is designed to favour the courts, not the person being charged. That is why lawyers get rich.
@Gary Williams
czcams.com/video/o3NJMhSZtaU/video.html
Thanks again Ian for another informative video.
Always good well thought out info from you. Is a soft case pistol case (like the browning ones) with a lock on the zipper acceptable for the transport regulations?
Great info as always. I like metal combo trigger locks. I was wondering about the plastic trigger locks that use just a screw to secure both pieces with a simple stamped metal two-pronged key that works like a screwdriver that BROWNING and other manufacturers put on new rifles in the box. I always replace them with a metal combo trigger lock but is it necessary?
Hi Ian, thanks for your amazing videos. I've discovered you recently and have been binge watching.
How would you legally secure an AR-7? The receiver is inside the stock and I don't think a trigger lock would fit.
Absolutely loving these videos!
Could you please expand on your Knife video #1, specifically in regards to a knife with a "Flipper" attached to the Knife blade that allows the knife to be opened with one hand....maybe even 1 finger.
example: CRKT M16 SPECIAL FORCES - TANTO (M16-14SF)
This knife in particular has 2 "Flippers" creating a true hilt. The knife can then be carried point down in the pocket and the flipper catches on the pocket on removal and opens! Is this legal?
Would love to see the answer in a future video.
Keep up the great work!
Mr Runkle, your videos are always on point and address some of the hot issues around firearm laws.
Can you share your interpretation on the legality of home made firearm and ammunition? Specifically under criminal code s.99, "Every person commits an offence who...manufactures...a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm, a non-restricted firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, any ammunition or any prohibited ammunition knowing that the person is not authorized to do so under the Firearms Act".
Does this means home made firearms are not permitted because there's mentioning of authorizing individual to "manufacture" under the Firearm Act. More importantly, does this mean every reloader can potentially be charged with weapons trafficking?
I ran into this with a local gun store I frequent. If I was to buy a pistol I could secure the plastic case they come in with zip ties and have a trigger lock on the pistol itself. Somebody decided to call the CFO to confirm this was okay and found out it is not. Now you have to have an additional cable lock or pad lock to secure the plastic case when picking up the pistol
Wow. Where do you live? Here I can just wear it out of the store
@@cult_of_odin welcome to Canada my American friend. It is illegal to open or conceal carry in Canada. Pistols can only be used at government approved shooting ranges and can only be transported to and from the range. No side trips or detours to pick up groceries or a buddy
Good explanation with attendant facts.
Thanks for the great videos Ian. One question, does an integrated trigger lock or "hillary hole" meet the criteria for being a "secure locking device" in Canada? All the RCMP documents say "Attach a secure locking device", in the case of an integrated lock you can't "attach" it as it's already built into the firearm. Would this wording be used as a gotcha if the police inspected a firearm being transported to the range for example?
Curious on this as well..
Thank you
Zip ties in court....
"When Britannia rules the waves
Britannia can waive the rules"
Interestingly you can buy zip ties that are keyed, made as cheap bike locks or also those with 3 digit combination locks built in. It seems that those would qualify then!
They usually open with a standard handcuff key though. Probably "meets" the letter of the law while failing to actually secure it.
They also have really cheap plastic trigger locks that look like they could be pried apart with your fingers fairly easily however they are legal because they use a "key". That key is plain silly and any small flat screwdriver would also open the lock.
You're awesome man! I really appreciate your videos. Very well done and informative. My finances have been in pretty rough shape due to the pandemic, but when I'm able I'd like to support your content monetarily. Keep up the excellent work!
No worries at all--things are rough for a lot of people, so look out for your family first.
@@RunkleOfTheBailey Absolutely. You really are performing a public service. I just discovered your channel recently, and you've cleared up so many questions I've always wondered about, but could never find a clear answer to. Thanks again, and have a great night!
Good info there about adding zip ties to a case with multiple lock points. I'm going to use that. Thank you.
I have both received and picked up from the store, restricted firearms secured with zip ties. No trigger lock will fit in the factory boxes, and sometimes there was no tigger lock and the case was held closed with a zip tie.
Any thoughts on those Allen screw-on locks with the 2-pin round keys? It meets the legal criteria for a trigger lock and the spirit of the law is not being quickly accessed, but other tools can be used to bypass it. Thoughts?
You can use that knife a paper clip or that file on those nail clippers as a mechanical key to remove any of the trigger locks covering a firearm trigger in less time it takes to use the locks key.
Can you get careless storage with a large plastic gun case if all you do is put a lock on one of the lockable points?
I forgot the combination for one of my trigger locks and after about 5 minutes on line found a video on you tube detailing how to open it without damaging it, how to reset a new combination so it could still be used. I also have a lock that is a bolt through the trigger guard and has a special tool that is used to put it on and remove it. I'm wondering now if this would be a legal device
If the special tool is unique it is probably considered a key. Some of the security fasteners have special tools for assembling and disassembling them, and the one catalog lists the driver as a key fastener.
I'm not a lawyer like Ian, but if the law says you need a locking device (but doesn't specify the type or strength) then any lock should do. I personally use little luggage locks. They would prevent immediate access but do not stand up to a hammer. I am confident I"ve met the minimum requirement by law based upon Ian's info in this video.
@@PerroLeal Yeah the cheap plastic trigger locks that you can buy online are legal and they are junk. Not even as strong as a luggage lock imo.
You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. So it is with the Criminal Code of Canada.
I do not recommend using a zip-tie for this purpose. If you drop the bolt on just about any semi-automatic rifle or shotgun, it will cut straight through the zip-tie. They make great chamber flags though.
That is what I use zip-ties for.
would like to get your take on the cheap plastic trigger locks that are held together with a screw, and have a little sheet metal 'key' that fits into the snake-eyes style screw head. Do you think these would pass as a secure locking device?
Thank you, although I wouldn't have though of a Ziptie. But who knows.
Stainless steel zip ties of different widths and lengths are available at Princess Auto and places like it. Extremely strong and short of tin snips, they stay on.
Same difference....they don't meet part A.
where can i get a copy of the Fire arms legislation? tx . love your channel.
Google
It seems ridiculous that a storage method could be not ‘careless’ but they would still send you to prison for not meeting the storage regulation. Bad law!
I find it hard to imagine a case where meeting the regulations and statutes would ever leave room to be convicted of carelessness.
@@ResistTheNonsense suppose you locked your gun case and then duct taped the key to the outside of the case for convenience. Suppose you left the combination at the factory default setting of 0000. Or suppose you stored your gun safe on your front lawn in plain view from the street. Technically meets the regulations but quite likely would be seen as careless
@@fornello123 No argument with those examples. I guess we do have people like that in the gene pool too. :)
If should you be a thug with prior convictions, they'll let you walk out with nothing more than a slap on the wrist and double-triple firearm prohibition
But does it have to be actually locked, meaning key left in or code set to 0. Also use zip tie for the carry box to and from range
I love your Browning Nomad but the Buckmark is the “peoples” .22 pistol. It’s no High Standard or S&W model 41 though.
The problem with a zip tie is that is is very easily removed by a device that very many people are commonly in possession of ... a pocket knife. The trigger locks are going to be much more difficult to open with a pocket knife. I can say from experience that the trigger lock is quite difficult to get off without a very good prying tool etc. (not something commonly carried so somewhat less likely to be available). Truth is that all of the required devices are just things that keep honest people honest. Could , maybe, help a bit in crimes of opportunity where someone sees a chance to grab your secure gun and get it operational very quickly. Anyone with criminal intent (theft of firearms) will plan the theft at least to the point where they have the tools they require to breech the security. Even a gun vault (higher level planning indeed but ....) may not be good enough to prevent a resourceful gun thief!! A good safe in a locked area of your house for home storage is effective. More so if you have a monitored security alarm. Transportation locks and cases are a pure BS requirement except for when the thief wants to steal .... and shoot at the same time. Slows down operation of the firearm but would not slow down or prevent theft at all. Anything that is portable enough for you to use for transport is portable enough to be quickly stolen. There are definitely laws that were drafted by lobotomy patients. ... :)
Hi, I know this is an older video but I am selling a (non restricted) keltec sub2000 on gunpost.. well turns out it is an RCMP officer who bought it. The sub2k folds and locks and I am leaving the key in a baggie inside the mag well. would this be legal to mail?
Any input appreciated, Thanks for the great videos.
Mail the key separately. That way, you’re covered.
If the firearm is presented to the court with a zip tie then immediately arrest the crown for improper storage of a firearm.
Haha, good luck with that.
@@beer1for2break3fast4 Hey ...they made the rules.
It's not for the select few. The rules apply to everyone.
My mans look like James Bond with that Browning 👀👌🏽🔥
You rock!
Any opinions on the screw on type of trigger lock?
Gun shops use them.
Can you talk about the legality of those small pistol safes in a beside table without a trigger lock?
WHAT!? The Browning Buckmark is ONLY a rebranded older model!?
3:57 or you could get/make a key to the zip tie.
5:20 A piece spring steel cut to size and shape, insert in the direction of travel zip tie unlocks and can be reused. $10 for 8.. I'ma get my money out of em.
So you can technically make a key for them
If you are going to argue that a zip tie does not qualify because it doesn't meet the requirements then you have to face the facts that trigger locks, cable locks, and gun safes don't either. As most of them can be opened in one second without a key using no skill attacks. Your trigger lock, for example, can be opened, just like your cable tie, with a bobby pin to the ratchet pawl that holds the two halves together. Same implement, used the same way, on the same mechanism.
The words matter not reality. For me a zip tie is harder to remove then an approved trigger lock. I don’t even own any keys for the few key locks I have. I simply jiggle them because it’s far faster then matching serial numbers from keys to locks. I didn’t even use a “real” jiggler” just a flat piece of pop can with waves cut in it and a bent piece of tie wire I smacked wit a hammer. It takes at most 2 seconds to open ANY trigger lock and I’m the guy people come to on the range if they forget their key. (I typically use combo locks but even they take perhaps 15 seconds if I don’t know the combo).
Urm, are bolt cutters or angle grinders a key? Just wondering, as at some level there is no lock that could meet the regulations?
My Father told me "A Locked Door only Keeps an Honest man Honest" , the idea of Locks is to slow down entry or make them find someplace else that is easier to get into.
@@steamboatmodel Oh, I don't disagree, in fact I'm fully on board with that concept, but the way the regulation is written:
"that can *only* be opened or released by the use of" (emphasis me)
Given the tools and enough time, there is not one lock that would fit that. definition.
What about the use of reusable zip ties where you can use an actual key (or anything else to depress the the tab) as a trigger lock or cable lock would that be acceptable to use?
As Mr Runkle stated, the Zip tie can still be ‘opened’ with a knife, making it impractical, and failing the legal requirements.
Can someone answer this question please!
How do you Legally store a Henery AR survival rifle.? If it’s meant to be all broken down and fit in the butt stock of the gun, how can you put a trigger lock on it? Is breaking it down and locking the gun away good enough?
The Henry AR Survival rifle 22 is Non Restricted. So for Storage, you can leave it assembled and use a suitable trigger/cable lock. Or disassemble it into its stock...then store the whole package in a securely locked container or safe. For Transportation, it only needs to be unloaded. No locks required at all.
Thanks Mr. Runkle for clarifying that point. I will have words with the shop owner that his staff member needs to be more informed regarding locks. I feel like I may have gotten poor information from the associate and will take it upon myself to affix proper locks next time I buy a gun from them.
My restricted gun instructor says the zip tie is OK. Of corse i don't use them but thanks for the advise!!
Is the knife in this instance be more akin to boot cutters as both are destroying the locking device? There are mechanical tools for non-destructively opening a zip tie.
I thought I was the only one to use nail clippers on zip ties. :)
I'm curious about your take on this lock they featured on InRange TV:
czcams.com/video/JgqHRjKovGo/video.html
I realize in Canada you can't store the pistol with a loaded magazine in it, but I'm curious if the lock itself is sufficient/legal.
I remember before you mentioned somebody getting charged for leaving a snap cap in the chamber, and I'm wondering if this bullet shaped thing in the chamber would be considered the same way given that it's a safety/security device.
It fulfills part b, by not allowing the pistol to fire. I don't see it having a "bullet-shaped thing" to be an issue. Whereas a snap cap "might" be confused with a round, this locking device is directly connected to the other body.
As for A, it functions like a combination lock, but you might have an issue with an officer deciding it isn't alphanumeric.
An inaccessible gun is unsafe. Especially when seconds count.
I'm unclear about your rifle case example. I have a case with two built in keyed locks and four hardened points for combination lock shackles. I normally only use two combination locks. By not using both keyed locks and engaging all four hardpoints with some combination of lock shackles and zip ties could I be charged with carless storage / transport? Loved Rumpole of the Bailey by the way. Right up there with Yes Minister.
They could theoretically charge you with careless or storage contrary to the regulations if it's easy to get the gun out.
@@RunkleOfTheBailey Thanks for easing my mind with the quick reply. Even with just two locks, someone would need to cut the shackles or cut through the case to access the firearms. All the same reusable zip ties are cheaper than dealing with an over zealous officer or crown attorney.
@@teddyrasputin3850 I always fill all the legal holes with airline approved combo locks. I work with and for commercial airline pilots and have about 30 of them so it’s no problem but if I didn’t you can be sure I’d fill those holes with something even if it was just a nut and bolt or zip tie.
@@john-paulsilke893 Thanks for the reply. I've plenty of locks, but as Runkle had mentioned, even with identical combinations or keys, it becomes irritating to operate 4 to 6 locks each time you access your rifle case. I'm curious about your airline approved locks though. Do you mean TSA locks? My understanding is that TSA approved locks are approved by being accessible by a small number of master keys (7) which TSA and unfortunately anyone who wants to buy them online has access to. At least according to CZcamss "Lockpicking Lawyer" channel and several State side firearms instructors who travel frequently when providing training. If you have some other kind of lock I'd love to check it out as I imagine it must be pretty good.
@@RunkleOfTheBailey Ian your statement here seems to go against your last video (R v Cowan). Well I guess they can CHARGE you with anything at any time, but conviction would be unlikely according to R v Cowan, no?
Not that I would use a zip tie as a "lock"... but..... if it was argued that a knife was used to lift the locking tab inside the zip tie to release it.. would that not be acting exactly as a key would in a padlock? In essence, making the knife, or a small screwdriver, into a "key" so that the zip tie is then a "lock"?
@jennifer stewarts this would IMHO comply as it contains a metal core. It can be argued that cable lock can be breached with bolt cutters as can this tie.
I’ll answer you after i go ‘unlock’ an orange.
Was that a spring assisted knife? ;)
Placing in the chamber helps and shows chamber is empty.
If your case has 4 locking points and you only have 3 locks is that still legal?
I think you only need one.
Can every judge be charged as they control the court where an exhibit of a fire arm is only secured with a zip tie or would it be the prosecution who enters the exhibit into evidence in court as they are in control of the firearm?
what pocket knife is that?
That's a handmade knife by Ed Storch: www.storchknives.com/
Look in the RCMP manual at how to "trigger safe" a lever action rifle using a cable tie. Totally BS and impossible to do. Aside from storage in general there is also a separate regulation to allow displaying firearms in a case. Very confusing and you have to wonder what genius's are coming up with this stuff but I doubt they even own firearms.
Only applies to NON-RESTRICTED firearms. All others ie Restricted and Prohib, MUST be locked up out of view.
Dumb politicians!!!
What about trigger locks with the key left in?
wouldn't be considered a secure locking device.
So, should the court not be charged if they are storing firearms in a manner they deem against the law?
So the regulation says can ONLY be opened by a key, couldn't that disqualify any trigger lock I can open with a hammer?
Maybe the courts should secure known criminals with keyed locks rather than “zip ties”.
Okay Runkle...what about a zip tie bike lock (yes these exist), there are several large zip tie things with steel cables inside the cable and a combo lock at the other end. So that is a zip tie with a combo lock...
If it's got a combination lock, seems like it should be good, but I'd have to look at the particular item in question.
@@RunkleOfTheBailey czcams.com/video/PMuZYQ1-56Q/video.html is the combo version.
@@RunkleOfTheBailey czcams.com/video/YzncNl6N18s/video.html is the keyed version.
A keyed trigger lock is not technically compliant unless the key is 100% inaccessible to others 100% of the time?
That's absurd. Our country is nuts.
Of course when shipping a NEW handgun they don't need trigger locks or anything special other then some way to prevent it being loaded. Totally different for the registered owner.
Good enough for the court, but not good enough for the citizen... Smells a little funny.
There are some zip ties that have a tool for releasing the catch, that tool could be considered a key.
Part A is for ensuring security, Part B is for ensuring safety. Two separate, albeit related, issues.
What about when I send my gun to the gunsmith?
shared it
You give a clear explanation for laymen. The legislation and regulations are available, but you explain the context and a few of the court decisions. Has the SCC dealt with firearms issues?
Like us you love guns and you share our passion. I commend that. It is remarkable (or perhaps just interesting) that people in your profession (law) and in mine (Psychology Professor) enjoy manipulating and shooting handguns and rifles : - )
They are fun. Simple as that. My son is 18 months and already loves guns. He shoots at stuff with his nurf gun.
What about handguns like a derringer? You can't put a trigger lock on one of those. I use a zip tie to secure it so it can't be fired.
Well almost all derringers are prohibited in Canada and in that case if it didn’t have a trigger guard to put a lock on you would use a cable lock through the barrel and out the open chamber area and the action would be left open, like a break open action derringer or break top revolver or a swing out cylinder type revolver or a semi-automatic would need the slide left open and you could go through the barrel or through the mag well, I’m sure there are other ways, but that’s the most commonly accepted way
What about reusable zip ties with a key, such as hiplok z-lok? This zip tie kinda have a key.
So. Perhaps answer is in the comments.... but... how is it that when my friend's handgun got warranteed and had to be shipped from one province to another that the email from the store specifically said no locks on it? And no locked case????
Buddy got scared and used a zillion zap straps on trigger proper just to be sure...in magwell thru action and thru action and barrel.... now this vid is saying this reputable store was in the wrong... in... writing???? I am a fan... had never finished that video until now... help????
I can take any trigger lock off in under 5 seconds with a flat micro screwdriver.
Locks only keep honest people out. It's all BS.
Gun control, isn't about gun... but control.
Zip tie the trigger in a depressed fashion
A zip cut will remove a trigger lock
a small flat screwdriver will too
What about a stainless steel zip tie it could not be easy cut with knife or nailclipers
If I had kids I would go above and beyond. I don't, so I store them to the legal standard and no more.
Lol master lock makes a locking zip tie
can you make a video about canadians bringing guns into to us for hunting or other purposes
So if your in court and there a zip tie on the firearm could you not argue that who ever brought the firearm out be charged with unsafe storage? If the crown/courts use the zip tie method THEY HAVE ALREADY DEEMED A ZIP TIE AS A LEGAL METHOD!
if the zip tie is not good how come they use it in court
Court doesn't have to follow the same storage rules as you or I.
Cops on displaying them only have a zip tie on them. and what do police use for hand cuffs?? yep zip ties. but you can buy a couple cheapo locks at dollar stores and stick one on.
In my training for restricted license, the officer told us we could use it as temporary locking measures.
Unfortunately with all laws the police you're dealing with can interpret them any way they want and if that is not in your favour then it's up to you to fight the charge in court. I'd rather err on the side of caution and not give the police any reason to charge me in the first place.
Why in the hell would you want you lock a trigger makes a gun pointless..
This is Canada... Self defense is kind of a taboo...
Cops use zip ties!
I watch your exclent vids then worry about the same laws being haphazardly written by American politicians.
Very interesting analysis. My feeling is that a person must do everything humanly and reasonably possible, given the circumstances and resources available to them, to secure their firearms in a manner which will protect family and public. If a simple zip tie, in conjunction with other measures such as locks and screws, demonstrates to the C.F.O. that every measure has been taken, then God bless the zip tie.
The lock on the entrance door to ones humble abode should be considered as a secure space. but unfortunately this is where a safe citizen upon beconing a victim of theft is treated worse than the one who broke in and stole the property
You need trigger locks on the guns which are then locked in a cabinet which must be secured to the building. The ammo must be in a locked container and in a different room.