When Is A Firearm "Loaded"? A Lawyer Explains
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- čas přidán 6. 09. 2024
- A question I often get asked is about what it takes to make a firearm count as "loaded" in Canadian law. So, this video walks through the law, as well as a bunch of odd scenarios I frequently get asked about.
All comments for information only. Do not take anything as legal advice--if you have a legal issue, contact a lawyer directly so that you can received advice tailored to your situation. All views expressed are solely those of the creator.
Links:
Patreon: / runkleofthebailey
Discord: / discord
that measuring cup is an illegal magazine, it clearly holds more than five rounds and is compatible with any semi auto.
😂
Agreed. BAN IT!
I live an hour N/E of Toronto;Police showed up after my son and I were plinking on my farm. It was a noise complaint! Officer didn't ask me for I.D., or PAL. She said I was well within my rights. I gave the officer my email and cell to share with the complainant.(i was willing to cease fire if they ever had company over,or what have you) The officer later says the neighbor didn't want it, saying I was being very cooperative, and neighborly, but "fuck her". It turns out that just neighbour, who lives approximately half a kilometre away, had moved up here from the city 2 years ago. We've been shooting on my property for 30 years now. In fact most of our neighbours I'll shoot maybe not as often as we do. Most of them are Hunters. In fact one neighbour goes to the same gun club is me. It just goes to show you that not all cops are bad. I wanted to share a good cop story because there's so much negativity towards police right now.
Kids: Runkle Can we have a side saddle?
Runkle: We have a side saddle at home
Side saddle at home: A measuring cup
Sadly, I don't own a side saddle. I own a bandolier, but that's not exactly the same thing here.
@@RunkleOfTheBailey sorry for the unrelated comment. is it right to have to enter a plea to a court registrar instead of a judge? this whole covid boondoggle has really put the pipe wrench into the legal system in Alberta
@@thomasbarker2554 Wow you got the chance to submit a plea? when i ask for a court date all i got was "we will contact you when courts are open again", next thing i got was a notice of conviction in the mail, bunch of A-HOLES. (and i work in the justice dept).
Back when I took the firearm safety course (in Ontario) we were taught that a charged (detachable) magazine is considered to be a loaded firearm in the eyes of the law. Is this true?
@@guyincognito7442 A magazine is not a firearm, regardless of whether or not it is loaded with ammunition.
You are needed amongst your peers, and you serve your fellow citizens. I share your knowledge,and thank you.
Thanks for this clarification Ian. I once spoke with a rather reasonable Ontario CO about my AR 7, he had no issue with the charged magazine being inserted in such a way while the gun was disassembled. He did say that it would need to be in some sort of container after dark, a backpack would suffice. Similarly, my 11-87 duck gun has two plunger style shell holders built into the buttstock, I've always wondered if this having shells in it would constitute the gun being "loaded". This channel has opened my eyes to a lot of the vagueness written into our gun laws. I feel as though the unstated purpose of a lot of this is to deal with people who are "lippy" with an officer. Which is unfortunate.
Hey Ian, just want to say, I don't own a firearm, but love the way you describe things, in this video and others.
Thanks for what I can only say is a public service, bravo.
What are you waiting for ... take the course ... get a gun ... have loads of fun ... for the whole family
The box the ammo came in would also be a “magazine” under that definition.
From Ambrose Bierce Devil's Dictionary: Lawful: being compatible with the will of the judge having jurisdiction.
Another example is the 10/22 takedown in a Magpul Backpacker stock which has an area in the buttstock to store 2 or 3 magazines.
I’m thinking the backpacker stock falls under “grey area” as the charged magazine’s are technically inserted into the firearm. But, if we’re splitting hairs, the “firearm”, by definition as I understand it, is the receiver...the only part with a serial number that you can’t legally purchase or possess without a pal. The stock, along with every other part of the firearm except the receiver, can be purchased without a pal. So, with all that in mind, the charged magazine’s are not actually inserted into the “firearm”, only the stock.
Denis The Menace, no it’s not a grey area as the firearm is disassembled in “backpacker” mode so it has no way of discharging and the chamber is blocked by the “folding” function. When assembled in a discharge condition there is still no path for the bullet from buttstock to the chamber.
How about if a loaded mag is in the mag well with the barrel stored on the stock
@@Jasonz1919 that’s easy. It’s illegal to store or transport with a loaded mag inserted in the receiver. It’s no different than if the firing pin was removed. It’s still “loaded”.
That’s my layman’s understanding anyway. If I’m wrong Master Runkle will provide an adjustment I’m sure lol
This video has confirmed that some judge's judgement is so irratic that they should be removed from the bench.
I’m taking business in university, but I’m taking a law class and it’s my favourite. Very much considering to switching to law Major
As an example a Ruger 10/22 takedown with a Magpul X-22 Backpacker stock appears to come from the factory with three of the four included magazines located in the buttstock.
You will love the law in New Zealand, if you have one or more rounds in a magazine it is considered to be a loaded weapon with no gun in sight
New Zealand appears to governed by imbeciles.
These anti gun people are the ideological supremacists.
If the measuring cup was considered a magazine, the box the ammunition came in could be considered a magazine.
Thank you for clearing up the sidesaddle argument. Recently saw someone on Facebook try to argue that sidesaddle = loaded. I couldn't tind anything online mentioning if it was legal or not!
This brings up an interesting question I have. Given the definition of "cartridge" under the law; of a propellant, a projectile and a source of ignition (primer) with the cylinder acting as the "cartridge case" Would carrying all the un-assembled components of a "cap and ball" revolver, locked in the same case result in charges?
As well, If an "original" 1874 Colt navy cap and ball revolver is NOT considered a "firearm" under Canadian law, but an exact replica (that loads and functions exactly as the original) is considered restricted, it would seem that the law is arbitrary, based ONLY on date of manufacture and NOT function and public safety.
Very arbitrary.
If I understand what you're saying, then it should fall under Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations SOR/98-209
6(c)... Unless the ammunition is stored, together with or separately from the firearm, in
(i) a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into
The idea, imo, is that having guns as limited and inaccessible as possible helps public safety by leading to less gun deaths.
It's why .22/.38/.32/.45 antiques were placed as restricted. With uncommon ammo, the remaining antiques become more "curios and relics" (to borrow an American term) than actual firearms. Their old age makes them limited in number, and those in a functional state continue to dwindle. It's an easy way for them to effectively close a source of guns without the headache of aggressive confiscations. Similar in a way to 12.6 prohibs, where the source for "concealable" pistols was cut via ban and dwindling license holders will eventually result in their destruction.
Obviously the elephant in the room is weapons trafficking, but it's easier to just target regular people to show one's "firm stance" against gun violence and express moral outrage.
If the chamber itself isn't considered a firearm, then no that's not loaded because the definition only applies with respect to a firearm. Of course if you were to point the contraption at someone and you threaten to hit the percussion cap with the tip of a screwdriver the court might be inclined to say that's a firearm. It would be an interesting (read: expensive) legal question.
@@Snubrevolver If you research agenda 21, you'll see that the UN and WEF have got every country on earth to sign this document and part of it is to disarm the entire world. so none of this legislation is by accident or negligent or stupid or this or that - it is 100% part of a bigger plan to disarm every country on earth - for diabolical purposes.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this, I have been struggling with this for over a decade since I left the army. In the profession of arms the term “loaded” simply means a live round/cartridge inside the chamber. Thus, the proper term for “loaded” has nothing to do with any internal or external magazine having anything in it. This is a very important distinction within the profession of arms because ROEs (Rules of Engagement) can restrict when you are authorized to load your weapon, but standing orders always say you must have a fully loaded magazine in your rifle when in the field. But again, when you may load your weapon can be quite restricted. I have spent days with a fully loaded mag in my rifle but not once loaded it. Than again, some weapons are not magazine fed, so if the term “loaded” was directly linked to a internal or external magazine, it then would not apply to all the various weapons that aren’t magazine fed. This is probably why the act focuses on the term “unloaded” instead, this skates right around any confusion with the real definition of “loaded”... unfortunately the firearms reference handbook the RCMP issues you for their firearms training regime is written in a way that makes this (& other issues) confusing to anyone with professional experience from the profession of arms; or coming from an amateur’s reference point to a professional one. Once a person gets their PAL there is a lot to ‘correct’ so that a civilian may understand how professionals operate, what terms are actually used, which ones aren’t & what the real terms actually mean. Because clear concise communication saves lives, miscommunication gets the wrong people killed. Thus, this might seem like trivial issue or nitpicking but in the profession of arms it’s taken very seriously, everyone must operate on the same page, same reference point.
As a side note, black powder firearms traditionally were loaded with cartridges, in fact the modern term “cartridge” is taken from the traditional one dating back to early black powder times. Obviously the 2 types of cartridges are quite different but even in the final days of black powder firearms, they were loaded with modern brass cartridges just like ammunition of today.
Cheers, thanks again sir. I enjoy your videos, I have learnt a lot.
The hunting regulations here state that you can transport a muzzle loader with powder and projectile as long as there is no primer inserted. I'm unsure as to whether this contradicts federal law as to unsafe storage.
@@samdone2900 interesting, I did not know that, but what about all the muzzleloaders that are discharged with a procession cap?... can’t exactly call it safe to have a loaded flintlock: both ball & powder in it at halfcock.
@@James-zg2nl removal of the flint is quick and easy. It must be so since you need to sharpen, profile and replace these items often.
@@john-paulsilke893 good point. I wonder if either would hold up in court. Seeing how the Federal Firearms Act is loaded with inaccuracies, misinformation & often lacks logic, how might an ignorant judge who’s never touched a firearm, or crown council, look upon this kind of logic.
I wish an ex-CF member had written the rules rather than a politician: you guys have all sorts of legal fine print that could have been adapted and would have made a heck of a lot more sense. Instead they reinvented the wheel and ended up with triangles. What a mess.
I once was showing someone my crossbow. They freaked out when I moved the bow in an "unsafe direction" as I handed it to them. I said, you can see there is no arrow in the crossbow and the bow is not drawn. I think there is a real phobia about tools. If it was a loaded nail gun he would have said nothing.
That's a sad commentary on the level of ignorance when it comes to firearms, or in your case crossbows. It also shows how brainwashed parts of the firearm community has become about firearms, when You tube presenters have to prove to their audience that the firearm is unloaded and then still keep the muzzle pointed in a 'safe' direction. Don't get me wrong, I'm a believer in firearm safety and safe handling techniques, but once it has been Proven safe it is just an expensive paper weight, or an odd shaped hammer, and it will stay that way until someone consciously changes it by loading it with ammo.
@@swingerguyarmstrong8693 I agree--well said. I hope one day someone will start a gun holiday, where people legally open carry rifles once a year. I would hope that this would start to normalize firearms and show people that they are not getting shot. It would have to be setup well and the RCMP would have to be in the loop so they dont start acting silly.
They're not entirely wrong
"Don't get in the habit of pointing that thing at me, my life shouldn't depend on you never making a single mistake"
They don't have to mistake it as being loaded every time. Only once.
The entire purpose of "muzzle sweeping" is to build in good habits, muscle memory that won't fail you even when you make the inevitable mistake of "I thought it was unloaded"
Which is why these "loaded weapons laws" are so clearly not designed to protect people but to make criminals, it is an inevitable mistake but not something that should be such a severe crime.
The cooper rules work.
The "never forget if a weapon is loaded" cannot work.
Again, another excellent video. The one point I believe you should have touched on, was the definition of a Firearm as defined under the Firearms Act. The Act defines a firearm as the Frame (handgun) and/or receiver (long gun) or in the event of a two part receiver, the lower receiver. By inserting live ammunition into the buttstock of a rifle/shotgun, you are not inserting it into the Firearm per definition.
In the event of an AR-7 type rifle, the only issue I can see, is the insertion of a charged magazine into the magwell (which is part of the receiver and therefore by definition, the firearm) of the receiver, then stowing it in its allotted compartment within the buttstock. As the rifle is not fully assembled and in its stowed configuration, the receiver being the firearm by definition, is loaded with a charged magazine and therefore would be deemed as a loaded firearm. The other two (or one if an earlier production rifle) would be fine, as they may be charged but stowed in their respective compartments within the buttstock and not in the receiver/firearm.
Now if two charged magazines (assuming a later production rifle) are stored in their respective compartments and an empty magazine is stored within the magwell of the receiver (firearm), then this would also be acceptable be definition of the Firearms Act.
As you mentioned, understanding and referencing the definitions outlined in the Firearms Act is critical to the understanding of the law under the Firearms Act. That also eliminates or in the least filters some of the grey misinterpretations of the Law.
Greatful for a government that keeps me safe
In this straight jacket
Don’t forget the muzzle. Hateful speech and hate speech plus spreading information that contradicts or questions their false propaganda or referring to someone by the incorrect pronouns can end up in fines and/or imprisonment. 😳
@@john-paulsilke893 indeed, the mask of obedience.
@@john-paulsilke893
Sadly, the politicians only write words on paper, and call them laws. Canadians wouldn't be so timid, if it wasn't for order following corrupt cops, that actually do the deeds to ruin citizens lives. Casue cult following thugs like the power.
@@anonwebuser604 well said.
Always wondered about the shell holder in the Chiapas X-Calibre, and if it would cause issues if it held shells. Didn't think it would...but never know in this country.
Very well explained, i actually had a co-worker being potentially charged by a game warden for use of a shell saddle like described here when he was hunting migratory birds (legally, of course). And to not get into any trouble with the warden the co-worker simply removed his saddle from his firearm.
While there is a limit to the amount of rounds one can carry within their firearm magazine when hunting migratory birds (3 total; typically 2+1 in my area); the Warden made the argument this saddle was indeed a magazine to the firearm and violated that shell capacity rule. So the question came up is this shell saddle considered a cartridge magazine, or if this shell saddle was in violation of the local hunting laws.
I have always wondered about the AR7, as it cannot be trigger locked while in the "storage" mode. My contention is that the firearm is not usable until assembled so it does not require a trigger lock. I know of someone who keeps an AR7 under the back seat of their vehicle, I have always wondered if this was against regulations or not.
For travel your fine but when the vehicle is parked it becomes storage so the firearm needs to be locked (i.e. trigger lock or cable lock, or in a locked case).
incorrect its a NON RESTRICTED Firearm so legally it would just need to be locked in some way. For Transport or storage, all that would mean is you need to lock your car for example.
@@DutyCallz For storage a non-restricted firearm needs to be locked (trigger lock or locked case, etc.). For transportation no lock is required, i.e. it can be on the dash of your car with no locks and be legal during transportation. At some point after you park your car it changes from transportation to storage so the rules change and the firearm would need to have a trigger lock or be in a locked case, just being locked in your car is not enough. This is case law, people have already went to jail because of it (i.e. their "truck gun" had no trigger lock). And you also have to be careful with any ammo you have in the vehicle during storage because if it's not locked in a case and the firearm isn't either they could consider the firearm as "readily accessible to ammunition" i.e. unsafe storage.
@@toysareforboys1 I don't know if that's 100% because there's also explicit provisions for "unattended" vehicles": I would say "if the vehicle is parked at your residence it becomes storage..."
@@toysareforboys1 Are you a lawyer? Because I have heard and was explained the complete opposite. I get the ammo unsafe storage thing But I don't get how that would go over say out on a hunting trip you had no other options but to lock the car with the ammo and gun near each other. Idk it sounds like you may be confused on the restricted portion of the Firearms act. Hard to say you are storing something when thats your only option and as the other guy said unless parked at your house etc I think it would be hard to consider it as storage.
I own a GSG16 .22lr rifle. A magazine can fit in the butt stock as storage area.
So you can take your mag out and replace it with the butt stock mag when reloading.
I have a trifecta of questions regarding the AR7. #1 Trigger lock, is it required when stowed, if so how do you use one? #2 Could a stowed AR7 be considered a concealed carry? #3 What about charged mags in the stow? Thanks for the videos, I personally truly appreciate them.
You can't add a trigger lock to the firing mechanism AND store it in the stock. At least not without serious modification.
I have a stainless Ruger NO.1 in .358 Winchester. For those who don't know, that is a falling block single shot with a half lever on the trigger guard. I keep a side saddle on it for follow up shots but just make sure the bullets are out of it when transporting.
I’m not Canadian and don’t really have a say but Canadian gun laws really suck.
And the criminals don't care.
Still.
Who woulda thunk that.
YEP!!! According to our liberal friends and government, we are ALL safer because of our sucky laws. Just criminals and gang bangers are exempt because they are at the lowest tax brackets and NEED firearms to make ends meet, its part of our social net. That's why they aren't targeting them.
@@brandonkallio1215
Cops are also the problem.
They have the option to harass the public, because chasing criminals is difficult and dangerous work.
Order followers like that love the power and the government pension plan.
@@brandonkallio1215
Judas sold Jesus for 30 sheckles of silver. And the centurion guards mocked Jesus with a crown of thorns. While the mob wanted Barabbass freed.
@Me. Me
Again. I DO NOT CARE
ANYONE that has been, or is currently a cop is a slimy tailor to the general population. FULL STOP
They have NEVER stopped what is now full blown tyranny.
If they are woke now, it just proves how wishy washy their moral judgement is. Their morals flap with the wind.
The Steyr Scout Rifle has a mag well in the stock for storage as well.
They actually seized a Firearm in Princeton BC iirc, as it was being transported with a side saddle with ammunition in it, in the back seat of a vehicle. This was probably 5 years ago or more, as my Instructor told me about it maybe 3-4 years ago. Also iirc, the vehicle was occupied at the time, and the stop occurred because someone had reported seeing the firearm in the back seat.
It's also illegal to hunt from a vehicle, or use a vehicle as a platform for hunting or shooting, (i.e. to stabilize your rifle while shooting over the hood, or out of the box of a truck), so an individual can't argue that they were actively hunting when the firearm was seized, if it happened to be in an area where hunting is allowed. In the previous case, they were downtown, and had stopped at a gas station when it was reported, from what I recall.
"Attached to" The side saddle can't have ammunition in it if it's attached to the firearm. It can be separate from, and not touching the firearm. When I took my PAL/RPAL, it was very clear that you could not have ammunition touching the firearm, or attached to the firearm outside of actively using the firearm at a range, or in an appropriate activity like hunting. As far as I know, that's the interpretation of the law.
In a cartridge magazine attached to the firearm. I can't see a judge interpreting a side saddle as a cartridge magazine.
@@RunkleOfTheBailey I don't know how the judge interprets it, but that seems to be the RCMPs interpretation.
A cartridge is the casing, primer, powder, and projectile of ammunition, so that may be what they base it on.
i.e. the cartridge, (ammunition), would be attached to the firearm by means of the side saddle.
@@RunkleOfTheBailey I just generally think it's better practice to follow the literal interpretation, and avoid the potential trouble.
And aside from that, there really isn't any reason to have the firearm and ammunition together unless you are actively hunting or shooting anyway.
Meaning, it doesn't need to be stored on or in the firearm during transport, or when stored, because there is no lawful reason to do so.
A black powder muzzle loader gun is considered unloaded even if it has a charge and projectile in it as long as there is no cap or flint installed. That is my understanding.
I have a Henry Survival Rifle (AR-7). I've always considered the 2 magazines in the stock as being not loaded (even with ammunition in it) because the magazine is not in contact with the firing mechanism. However, the stock does allow for a 3rd magazine to be stored in contact with the firing mechanism when inserted into the stock so I always store that magazine without ammunition. Technically it is loaded even though you have to assemble the rest of the gun in order to shoot it.
sir thank you so much for your videos , you sir are a rare individual and we owe you so much for your information
By attached magazine, I'm assuming they intended tubular magazines like on a lever or pump action gun. Since those aren't inserted magazines.
With an AR-7 you have to be careful with where the magazine is stored when it is taken apart and put away... the receiver and action can be stored in the buttstock with a magazine still attached to it. There is a space for two magazines (the rifle comes with two) however the space for the receiver and action has room fotr an extra one attached. Super convenient if you're out trekking through the woods but it can be tempting to keep extra ammo in that third magazine. I would assume that prosecutors would try to nail you for a loaded receiver even though it can't be fired like that. They'll get you however they can so protect yourself any way you can.
Yes, that's why I keep the third mag empty until needed to shoot.
the fact that we even need to think about that is a huge exampl of just how absolutely beyond retarded the firearms act is..
and whats worse is it was so poorly written INTENTIONALLY.. that way it can be abused the way we have constanly seen by the CAs etc whom dont give a rats ass about comon sense or public safety..
@@Roarmeister2 Empty? Why would you carry an empty magazine. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of survival gun? Spatially one that holds only 3 mags? You better don't miss that rabbit, or you go hungry.
@@ThePolak700 We (this video) are talking about the definition of loaded. Technically it would be loaded if the 3rd magazine with ammo is in contact with the receiver so it should always be stored without the ammo. I didn't say empty while out in the field - that would be the time to load that mag. But seriously you don't need to have 24 rounds available to hunt rabbit. How bad of a shot would you have to be?
@@Roarmeister2 To hunt a rabbit with sighted rifle you need one round. Every time you remove the barrel from receiver makes rifle not sighted. Plus survival rifle like AR7 may be used as predator deterrent and if you encounter a pack of hungry wolves at night.... I'll take all the ammo I can get. I'm just talking from experience.
Thanks for the video, would be nice to know how an AR7 can be transported on a hike, as I don't think you can put a trigger or loop lock while disassembled and in the stock, and in your backpack.
I don't think you need a trigger or loop lock on thr AR7 when on a hike because it is non-restricted, but if you have your AR7 in a backpack is it now a concealed weapon?
@Greg Wiseman If you watch his video about why it is not legal to carry a nr gun in a guitar case, it would be the same for a backpack, therefore a concealed weapon unless it is clearly labled as a gun case.
RenosVids I’ll just strap my mossberg 500 to my backpack like I always do
I think 'attached to' refers to a tubular magazine such as is found on a typical lever action rifle. It's pretty clear to me the lawmakers would never have considered that someone would tape a magazine to the side of a firearm.
Also belt-fed magazines. Not like there's a wealth of them in Canada, but the lawmakers covered their bases.
I agree that's what they meant to say, but as the saying goes, what they meant to say may not in fact be what the judge thinks he's hearing
@@wilfdarr some judges appear to take the letter of the law as it's written rather than trying to understand the intent of parliment. So like Ian says there is always some risk.
I agree entirely that the legislative intention wouldn't have stretched to taping a magazine to a gun, but this video stands as clear proof that the legislators can easily get things wrong when they don't have or don't consult the subject matter experts on things. The Act reads: "...any propellant, projectile or cartridge that can be discharged from the firearm is not contained in the breech or firing chamber of the firearm nor in the cartridge magazine attached to or inserted into the firearm." That last part needed to read "...nor in a cartridge magazine that is connected to the firearm so as to feed the firing chamber." As it is written it literally catches a mag being taped to a pistol. While I agree with Ian wholly, there will be some LEO who will read this provision literally and charge accordingly, and there will be some prosecutor who is curious about this and will run the case. Canada's gun laws need an overhaul by subject matter experts (maybe Ian's next gig) and the sooner the better.
@@MichaelALoberg But if the law was clearly defined with no shady loopholes, then politicians couldn't push for morally questionable political prosecutions.
Good topic on AR7. Gun was designed as a survival gun, was design to carry 3 magazines, 2 in the stock and one in the gun. In survival situation 30 rounds is better than 20 (specially because sights it has). Question is , is it considered as a working gun if it is disassembled? It will defat the whole purpose what it was designed to be used as. Lets say you go quad ding off the grid in Norden Ontario, and have it in the box just in case you get stuck, or quad brakes down and you have 100 km to the nearest community plus it is already getting dark. Having it with as much ammo it can carry is much safer, maybe even loaded with 22LR tracers (for signaling) if you can find some makes sense. To me it is a safety tool that can save lives.
Just saying, and wondering if it would stand in courts.
Ontario MNR does not seem to consider a muzzle loader loaded if the percussion cap / primer is off but it does say on page 26 of the regs, federal regulators “A muzzle loading gun is not unloaded unless any propellant, projectile, or cartridge has been removed from the breach or chamber. There is an exemption on transport restrictions when travelling between hunting locations”
Different laws can have different definitions--"loaded" for the purpose of the Criminal Code/Firearms Act may not be the same thing as "loaded" for the purposes of the Ontario wildlife regs.
You know, just to make things extra easy to understand for the layperson.
Runkle Of The Bailey this is what we had been following, I don’t know if we have been in the wrong or not. laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-98-209/page-2.html section 10(b). Would there be something that would supersede this ?
That's actually an exception to the general rule that you can't transport a firearm loaded. Would still count as loaded, but allows transport in that circumstance.
Love your channel. Very insightful. I think that from my own experience 38years military, small arms instructor among many more. The word Loaded is a loaded question, lol. The law should be clarified as loaded and ready. If there is a round in the chamber it is considered READY or ready to shoot. You can have a loaded magazine in your weapon and it is considered SAFE. Since watching you channel i have been seriously informed on the crazzy Canadian laws
another grey gun is Browning SA/Norinco JW-20
when you take the gun down the barrel and chamber are removed, the cartridges remain in the buttstock, so you could argue that you have removed the magazine from the chamber and barrel
I'm told local NRP use a "is it touching a part of the gun" 'guideline'.
Thank you Ian, you're giving the courts more credit than I would have in this regard.
This brings to mind another issue, when I did my training course they touched on what a "Vehicle" is legally, and used the example of a wheelbarrow. The instructor said that resting a loaded firearm on or up against a wheel barrow could be considered a violation of the transport regulations. He gave another example of leaning a gun against a vehicle or placing it on the tailgate of a truck, or even using the hood or roof as a rest - all of these could be considered a violation. Do you agree with his interpretation?
Not to pick fly crap out of pepper....but
Biathlon rifles have external "attachments" for magazines
As well as holders for single rounds
(Very much like a shot gun saddle)
So, if someone ended up arguing the issue in court, those might be a better (benign) test for the definition of "attached"
Hmmmmm?
In a couple places in the NRCan explosives regulations the word 'container' appears. During public comment I pointed out that a postal envelope is a container, so the definitions they were using were inexact. I suggested editing the regulations to add the phrase ISO or shipping or sea or intermodal, etc. But, in official Ottawa's wisdom the word container continues per the original wording draft. Can't say they weren't warned.
Oh no! A measuring cupozine! Someone call the authorities!🙈
THANK YOU!!!! Threw you a couple more bucks via interac as I don’t like Patreon. Loving the videos.
You should look up Viva Frei and do a video with him. For example you could analyze the McCluscky “displaying firearm while angry” case but pretending it was in Canada!
I don't think we would need a video on that.
Canadians know self defense is not allowed, and uttering threats to defend your own home would get you in jail, you guns confiscated and the homeless liberals would be eating on your kitchen table. Cause ... reasons.
Those homeless people using your house would be getting welfare too. While you worried about not dropping your soap in the prison showers.
Oh Johnny please don't ..
Oh Johnny please ..
Oh Johnny ..
Oh .. (this is Canada bend over, grab your ankles ... and cough)
I was going to do the same thing.. or mail him some cash. He has easily given everyone a few hundred dollars of advice so if everyone pitched in 20 bucks we would have more information for years to come. I had looked at signing up for Patreon because of him but decided that I didn't want another website having my information, plus, i figure, money coming in from Patreon may be taxable and I refused to give another dime to the communist party of Canada.
Me. Me that’s what they were charged with there. There is some legal arguments that the law is a 2A violation.
would be a good video on the Dewolf family raided when their friends were shooting gophers north of Calgary
Thanks for the information. I have a question for you about making a firearm safe for a gun show. I have searched extensively and found very little information in print. The only law that I have found is California penal code section 27305 part (e). My problem is that I have a "display only" collection that I like to bring to gun shows for my own entertainment. Most show promoters insist that all firearms must be zip tied, which I believe detracts from my display. I have worked around this problem by installing small shims above the disconnector, preventing it from engaging the sear. This has worked for me most of the time the last ten years but is a time-consuming procedure to reverse. My new method to make my firearms temporarily inoperative is to install wooden plugs pressed into the chamber. This requires a special tool to remove it (a ramrod) just like it takes a special tool to remove a zip lock (a pair of wire cutters). Can you give me any advice, or laws that I can present to show promoters who question my solution to making my guns safe? BTW I have signs asking people "please do not touch". Thanks
This may be a dumb question but what is the difference between storing and displaying a firearm. Because you can store a gun with the bolt removed but can not display one. Non restricted Firearms must have a secure locking device upon display. One could argue shoes on a shoe rack could be on display or rather stored in plain few
Hey Ian, any plans on your list of videos to address ammunition and the storage/transport of?
The part that always has confused me and seemed so ambiguous is the storage of ammo.
Is there any case law relating to these provisions? Storage of ammo is mentioned in the storage of firearms, but is it also mentioned/governed from any other legislation that may supersede the storage mention?
Section 5(1)(c) and 6(c) seems so contradicting with the phrases “readily accessible” and “stored, together with or separately”
Seems like they couldn’t make up their mind which one it is!
There was a case in BC where a guy was charged, by the RCMP, for i believe improper storage of ammo in his truck for a box of shotgun shells with no firearm present.
This is just hearsay from the italian hunting community in BC, but I have heard of people who got fined by a BC game warden for having a loaded firearm in their vehicle because they had spare, loaded magazines on a side seddle
trombonista92 won’t hold up in court, must be in a magazine or chamber
So in regards to the AR-7, I don’t feel that storing magazines in the stock would be considered in the firearm. The firearm consists of the lower, and post OIC the upper. If you’d like to borrow one for a video, let me know.
Are you really willing to trust the RCMP to come to a reasonable conclusion as you have?
If there is anything illegal its that cheap light on the sig. Its like having a ferrari and putting on smoke stacks through the hood
One example of not having a cartridge in the chamber nor in the magazine but being in the gun or feed path is ghost loading a shotgun. Ghost loading is when there's a cartridge on the shell lifter in between the magazine and chamber.
Ok so propellant or projectile brings the question... under the wildlife act .. let us use a flintlock as an example is not considered loaded with propellant and a ball and patch in the chamber so long as the pan has no priming powder ... is this an exception as a flintlock falls under "antique firearm" in Canada and thus is not a firearm or would you still be in violation based on provincial and or federal law on this basis?
Thank you for all the information you're giving. Can you maybe consider doing an article about crossbows. It's really a grey area as it seems like they're not regulated even though a crossbow at a same range than a handgun, will be more powerful. Even more powerful than the AR 15.
Definitely.
What about the Chiappa Badger? It's only $220 & shoots .22LR, it's a cheapo single shot, break-action. It's got ammo slots built into the stock. It's just convenience for when you go to a range.
What if I want to "load" it with dummy rounds? What if I want to put dummy rounds only in the stock slots?
Did I get this rite? A side saddle full is loaded.., but I can tape a loaded mag to a gun is considered no't loaded? I'd think a judge would consider it as a side saddle.. but the ar is like a gun in transport.. I'm thinking.. like keep it in the car or truck.. for example.. it is a closed container in the gun stalk.
If you have a snap cap or shell in your chamber,then you can be charged. Bottom line, make sure NOTHING in the chamber or magazine when your gun is stored.
Great video! Very informative, you don’t have to keep reassuring us in your gun safety, I can definitely tell you know what your doing/talking about
Do a video on transportation or non restricted fire arms, a lot of people think that you need to treat them the same as restricted guns. Awesome 👏🏽 channel by the way!
I did not knows those were called side saddles. I always called them shell holders as its what they do, or at times i call them bullet sleeves and i have one on my 410 single shot shotgun. Though instead of calling them bullet sleeves i should instead call them shell sleeves as again simplest name for what they do.
Oh shit man, don't pour the second box of 5 shotshells into your cup magazine! Centerfire semi-auto! 10 rounds! Prohibited device! 😂
in ontario/canada they do consider airgun pellets to be amo as i get asked for ID everytime i go into places like canadian tire and home hardware and other places as they say they are amo and need my ID to track every time I and everyone buys pellets and will not sell us pellets with out writing down my ID our ID check your local canadian tire stores iam airgunner and i only own and shoot non pal airguns/pellet and bb guns
Does the definition of "magazine" include a "clip" (such as in an M1 Garand), or is it separately defined? Are they treated differently?
I don’t know I feel the court could say the side saddle as being “attached” to the firearm. Wonder would this change things??? I feel like a judge desperate could try it??? I don’t know just an American guessing!!!
I have to thank you for all your videos. Everyone O have watched has been very educational and eye opening. I watched the "Spouse should have a license" yesterday and I ask my wife and son of they knew where the key was for the gun locker, and neither knew. Which was great..lol
Damn you Runkle! Doesn’t help me! I got an AR7!
Keep up the videos.
It’s loaded when it mother fucking bullets in it. No lawyer needed.
I believe one of the bullpup rifles in Canada has a storage slot for a second mag in the stock right behind the Magwell, do you think that would be considered loaded if I was cruising around with the mag in the storage slot? Alternatively what if I had two mags connected to each other and had the empty one I'm the Magwell and all I have to do is flip the mags around?
Thank you for making these videos !
I have a Ruger 1022 Tacstar which comes with two magazines that fit into pockets on the side of the butt stock of the rifle. I have had the same debate with people as illustrated with the AR7 example. In all honesty, it would be faster to take an extra mag out of your pocket than the ones in the stock because they are quite securely held for loss prevention. Good video, thank you. If I ever get busted with it, I'll know who to call. 😁LoL 😂
I'm curious about a more niche case. Say you own a rifle with a magazine catch as you see with WWI era rifles and even something more modern ones like the Styer Scout. A magazine catch being this old notion of keeping your magazine in reserve while single loading shots unless in a dire straight requiring a rapid succession of shots. In this case, it goes beyond that of the AR7 which is just an extra magazine in the stock of the rifle. In the case of a rifle with a magazine catch the magazine is in the magazine well of the said rifle but not necessarily engageable with the action of the rifle. How might this work legally under these definitions?
Lol if the cup was a magazine it would exceed legal magazine capacity. Case won
It seems to me that what isn't expressly mentioned here is the human intervention required to actually allow the firearm to shoot.
In other words, storing shotgun shells in your butt stock is not loading the firearm because it would take further handling by the user to get those shells in a position to be fired. Whereas if you load the mag tube, even if you do not have one in the chamber, you can get the shell in a position to fire without any additional handling required.
You can have ammo in a side saddle, but without your intervention it will not automatically feed into the firearm...therefore it is unloaded. If you rigged up a system to pluck the shell from the saddle and insert it into the firearm without the need for your intervention, it would then be considered loaded.
"The missile knows where it is, because it knows where it is not"
That butt stock shell storage can’t be used to store shells when your shotgun is locked in a safe!
So does that mean that a redi-mag magazine carrier would also be "unloaded"
Or the Steyr buttstock magazine carrier? Because on the CCFR page the general consensus is that both cases would be considered loaded, and wouldn't the AR7 be the same?
Is it more safe for a police officer to carry a loaded firearm than it would be for any other licensed gun owner?
These laws are purely political.
The old timers clear out, (me included) when we have a police officer practicing at our local range. I’ve been flagged at that range three times with a loaded gun, 2 of those 3 were by police officers. They are poorly trained and some of us have been trying to tutor them. (I have also seen a police officer use his pistol to tap on someone’s shoulder to get his attention. The gun was locked back and presumably empty but still!)
@@john-paulsilke893 wow that's bad form...
@Me. Me no, but I was holding my 10/22 at the time and it had a then legal 110rd drum in it. Quite a nasty load of angry bees to have pointed your way.
But of course I didn’t do that. I packed up and before leaving told the range officer to review the video from lane 6, (don’t actually remember which lane but around there). He was apparently banned after putting up a stink. He threatened to tell his other officers. So the owner threatened to revoke his ability to be a police officer because he’s one of their trainers and has an excellent reputation with senior police. (95% of police are excellent, but they tend to let the few bad officers get away with their sometimes dangerous or incompetent actions. We need to give them more support and training because what they are getting is dangerous to all of us including them.)
@J Ay well that took a turn...
it always does but thats enevvtable when the facts are that way.. and as much as we can wsh it was not that way.. it is estamoount to the wedge the asshole politicians have driven between the police and the good guys wih guns..
I knew duct tape could do a lot of things, but I didn't think it could give me legal advice. thanks for the video!
Tapping a bullet to a firearm. Super bad idea.
Always nice to see a new video up. We appreciate the information.
Could I suggest sharing some of your thoughts on firearms and divorce. I see this come up in discussions from time to time and there seems to be plenty of opinions.
Once again you have provided very helpful information for Canadians seeking to abide by the law. Obviously this will be of no value to a criminal since they have no intention of abiding by the law.
or some one who wants to us a gun for home defense. Which is perfectly moral to do, and a God given right !
@@e-bikeautonomy ... God gives me rights ... Not government ...
Use that phrase when you apply for your RPAL and see what happens. @@briankerr4512
What is the safe and legal way to transport firearms in Canada while hunting during a guided hunt? Hunters from the United States would benefit from knowing the correct way to legally transport their firearms. Hunting firearms commonly used in the US may differ greatly from ones legal for hunting in Canada.
Transportation requirements are fairly straightforward, like anything don't act stupid and you will avoid 95% of the issues. A simple google search should get you all the info you need.
As for what guns you can bring in, you have to submit a form to bring any guns in. To keep it simple, pretty much any manually actuated long gun will be fine
@@TheOwenMajor A whole bunch of calibers were banned by Trudeau, manually operated or otherwise.
Best advice is talk to your guide: that's their job, that's why you pay them the big bucks.
@@DeeEight Yup. My point was it's not just the .50BMG that was banned, but also a bunch of good elk/moose calibers like 416 Rigby, 460, 460 Weatherby, .416 Barrett and .408 Chey Tac, as well as the 577 Tyrannosaur, and 600 Nitro. Yes I'm aware these last two aren't hunting rounds, but they are ELR competition rounds and it wasn't uncommon for hunters to bring their ELR guns along on trips and shoot off some rounds out in the wilderness between hunts. Nor have I ever heard of a single homicide being committed using these calibers, ie absolutely no public safety argument at all!
@@DeeEight That would in fact be the worst thing they could do: if we win this in court it sets a precedent that would be near impossible for the Liberals to override. It has the potential to become the Canadian analog to the 2nd amendment. What the Conservatives should do is extend and expand the amnesty indefinitely until this thing winds its way through the Supreme Court, and then if we don't like the outcome scrap the entire law. But with a court order backing them up they'd a) be able to rewrite the law properly and b) the Liberals couldn't just undo the work next time they come to power because the changes would be court ordered.
thank you Mr. Runkle
Be careful where you put out a cigarette on your bedstand.
This topic would, I suppose, over lap with the ammunition storage rules too. I've wondered about those handgun safes they sell. Since it's a safe, can I store a loaded mag beside my handgun? That's what they're made for, and I know many people who use them, but I'm Leary to get one without knowing for sure.
Interesting to see how many disclaimers are on a lawyer"s video about guns.
IMHO charged magazine store in the stock of AR-7 with all other disassembled parts would not be a loaded firearm. Why? Stock is not a firearm. The part with action and trigger is. And it is also stored in the stock. So magazine is not IN or attached to a firearm - it is in a stock. Magazine does not touch the firearm. It touches the container that holds the barrel, action and magazines. If that was meeting the criteria of loaded firearm, then if you at any point have direct or indirect contact with a firearm (holding it, carrying it in a case, etc) while at the same time being in contact with a charged magazine (like having it in a pocket) - you would look at a loaded firearm.
Interesting opinions. Thanks Ian.
Spoiler: If he's loading rounds in the buttstock, it's not a magazine ;)
unless it is a tubular magazine like s remington nylon 66
The average viewer: * *clinging to their seat waiting for Ian to say if it's loaded* *
An intellectual: "He performed what he explained. That means it's not loaded."
I really enjoy your videos, you talked about knifes earlier, I'm a security guard and we are not allowed to carry a knife,but are manager Always carries a knife with a clip ,clipped into his pocket, is this not known concealed weapon?
I thought that a pellet gun that shot under 500fps was not a fire arm. So why would it be bad to have it loaded but not ready to shoot. ?
Pellet guns that shoot over 500fps are.
Also in a previous video (spear gun video or slingshot video, I can't remember now) he mentioned that a
@@wilfdarr I appreciate that. But if your on a bush road. Just cracked the barrel just enought to get a pellet in. Then needing to cock it to be able to shoot a chicken. I wonder what a C/O would do. I get being in a town or a city not being allowed. Kinda hard to justify shooting city birds for table fair. I'd like to think a C/O would let it slide. But then again I have never been rushed to get a shot at a grouse....
Not Firearms under the Firearms Act, but they are under the Criminal Code, according to the Supreme Court in of Canada .
Here's what I see-it may not be "illegal" yet, they just haven't forseen and actually written a law that deals with sidesaddles. But since its firearms law in 🇨🇦, they will charge you and you will have to fight your way out of it.
Also, I own a shotgun that I have mounted a sidesaddle as well as a red dot and a light. It is styled as a "tactical" shotgun. I feel this would be seen by police/crown as an assault weapon and therefore storing with shells in the sidesaddle it would be considered "loaded".
Is this kind of nuance a factor?
@Long Nards safe in my safe
I was told by conservation officer that a gun is considered loaded if the unloaded magazine is in the rifle? Is that true, the rifle was Abolt 2 that has a hinged detachable magazine. I keep it in there during storage(no cartridges in it) because they’re hard to find now and I’ve lost things before lol. Does this constitute a loaded firearm?
The term you are talking around is magazine well
The military does a better job defining loaded then the law in my opinion. More or less with out having it in writing it is "Ammunition supplied to the feed system". So, the end is like you said. A loaded mag inside the feed system (magwell). But an unloaded mag inside the magwell is not loaded technically.
Does an AR7 need to be locked/locked up if it's disassembled?
What about ammunition 'or readily available' rule ?
There is a common .22 Henry US survival ar7 rifle that has storage for two magazines in the stock and it has the ability to store another mag in the trigger portion gun when in the stock. It cannot be trigger locked when it is stored in the stock. Can the magazines be loaded when it is in the stock? How would I properly store this type of rifle? You also did not mention anything about crossbows are they loaded or not loaded. Are they not considered a firearm. Many people like myself hunt with crossbows as well as rifles. Thx . Jem H.