New meta and discussion about combat width in Hearts of Iron 4!
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- čas přidán 5. 10. 2023
- This video talks about the upcoming changes to combat width for Hearts of Iron 4.
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Quick video tutorial explaining a core mechanic for hearts of Iron 4 who's target audience is a new player.
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Title: New meta and discussion about combat width in Hearts of Iron 4!
Last Video: How does new combat width work? (Updated for AAT)
DLCs used: La Résistance, Man the Guns, Waking the Tiger, Death or Dishonor, Together for Victory, Battle for the Bosporus, No Step Back, Arms Against Tyranny.
Secret Question: What is the division with the funniest combat width?
Game: Hearts of Iron 4
Hearts of Iron 4 is a 4X grand strategy video game developed by Paradox Interactive.
#hoi4 #heartsofIron4 #nostepback - Hry
My thoughts are it might actually be less complicated to really learn real warfare. Combat width is such a jank.
It's actually simpler than it was previously. lol
I still use 20 and 40 widht
The world was so much simpler with 20w/40w.
I have to say if the intention was to make divisions more specialized for climates/regions/terrain I dont know if this was the best way to do it.
I'd like to see some Monte Carlo testing for how much impact those penalties actually make. The numbers don't seem particularly bad, compared to having more divisions attacking.
Feel like they want us to make dozens of templates for every terrain type instead of like 3 or 4 that everyone use
Who’s got the xp and time to do that
@@steadyjumper3547 agreed i dont know anyone who uses more then 5/6 Templates at most
it feels like the opposite, now you have three combat widths 10/15/35 that can be used for nearly every type of terrain in the game. Mountaineers are the sole exception with their ideal combat width being 25 but apart from that that's it, I approve of these changes
@@infiniminer7677im still using 20 and 40 width for all my divisions
seems like a weird direction to go. they seem to want to make bigger divisions better given the changes to support companies but then also discourage them
That was my thought as well.
BALANCED
honestly the combat width were probably better before, the only positive thing now is that cities dont have one third as the extra width when you attack from multiple directions which was weird
also 10 and 15 are quite small even though they fit well, i usually use 10 only as spam with countries that have no economy but a large frontline, like china when fighting japan
its small now but alot closer to how real life would look because you dont really have 40,000 troops in a division ever
It sounds like a genius solution to make things more realistic (cities do have defensive advantages)
thats my thoughts@@chozer1
@@stefy00i still use 20 and 40 width
10/15 width for all purpose infantry (6/1)
20 for city/urban specialised infantry
25 for mountaineers or marsh specialised infantry
35 for tanks
hm. Tried 15 width 3 infantry "8 inf/1art+engine+artsup+aa" armies as Austria-Hungary with 19 width (contains also 3 tank divs "4 LT/4 motorInf+supply+artsup+aa" with 16 width that is exactly almost whole tank stockpile of czech, and 5 mount divs "8 mount/1art+engine+artsup+aa" with 19 width) VS 15 width 3 infantry "6 inf/1art+engine+artsup+aa" army (1 tank div "9 LT/8 motorInf+supply+artsup+aa" with 35 width, 2 mount divs "11 mount/1art+engine+artsup+aa" with 25 width). 19 width army group were 670k of manpower , 15 width - 550k mp (and less equipment as using less batalions, don't calculated this actually). Efficienty was very similar in YugoRoman war, so 15 width army indeed more cost effective.
@@user-dw4pv6ur6t if u use Inf. just to hold Ground, I wouldnt advise using Frontline Arty. maybe iam wrong now, havent looked into Divisions Stats for some Time.
So if 15w to hold what should i use for attacking infantry or space marines?
@@R0B0TUK You need to adjust your infantry needs with stock pile. You have more artillery - you add more artillery, like 8 inf 2 art. But no need in monstrous divs. You have more planes - you add planes in regions, in which you want to breakthrough. Also healthy mix of support companies will make your day (shovel, artillery support, antiair comp). Infantry is not supposed for breakthroughs and you definitely need trying to get some motorised division (8 motor infantry - 1-2 motor artillery, infantry support comps) to make local punches as minor country. You definitely could make tanks in late game as minor, but playing past 1945 is nightmare, so many people use what they capable to get at the moment or in near future of the run. Watch out the army xp from the start of the game
Me, a China main about to completely ignore this fact:
Quasi-infinite manpower goes brrrr
@@christophesiewecke9208 Don't engineers give more entrenchment the more infantry you have in your division now?
@@mister_dadstersays_hi7372 I think so? I believe it was mentioned elsewhere in this comment thread that maybe the devs wanted to nerf the support company buffs by making large combat width divisions worse?
@@christophesiewecke9208 Boy, leg infantry block will be so entrenched
thanks for this work, your spreadsheet is awesome !
That’s the type of videos I like, short and showing exactly what I was looking for. Thanks a lot!🎉
Thank you, thank you, and thank you - for the patch information in a nutshell!
Quick and to the point. You’ve got yourself a subscriber.
20 seems to have few penalties while beeing beefer
It's looking like they would make great city busters/defenders. The micro involved with trying to specialize division templates for terrain types seems overwhelming but could be interesting for optimizing a minor nation with few tiles to manage? Now how to get that army XP...
@@christophesiewecke9208 city busters would be 40wd classic 14/4s
@@SaberRattlerII true. More defense than attack for the 20w. Although going to all the trouble of making a 40w just to attack cities seems like something only a micro obsessed major would go to the trouble of doing at this point.. and it wouldn't be very good anywhere else.
@@christophesiewecke9208 what i do is convert divisions on need i know i take a huge div xp hit but when playing SP or against my cousins who suck at the game it feels good
of course i rotate before converting meaning pull away 4 divs to convert to a specific type, attack then reconvert BUT i only do this to stuff that's giving me a headache like lvl 3 fort with city or different terrain.
Thanks for the acclaration with the CWs, I thought they were changed to 82 for plains and other different numbers than the ones you show, but looks like they changed them again later to this numbers. What I was doing until now (BBA, not the original numbers for AAT) was a combo between 27s and 30s, which allowed me to fill most CWs with the fewer penalties in every kind of terrain (except mountains). I will have to remake my spreasheets and see if there is still some good combo, probably a mix of 20s and 30s could be good, as I heavily distrust divisions with less than 20 with.
Something to consider is how many directions you'll typically be attacking from. If you are hitting from 5-6 directions or even 4 they're probably fucked anyway so it matters a lot less than 1-3
Thanks for this super great video with actual data backing up your recommendations! You are a God amongst ants ❤
I have watched this 5 times now with many pauses. (Maybe consider giving us a bit more time to read text that flashes on the screen, but on the other hand, the pause button exists for a reason!)
As for actual thoughts on the meta changes it seems like the hoi4 devs/designers are leaning into trying to force the player to tailor specific divisons for specific terrain types which seems like too much micro in my opinion, especially with big battle plans in a major over long front lines... Will the battle plan AI optimize unit placement for best terrain combat width use? Doubtful...
I would love to see what an optimal space marine division looks like now? Would it be 15w? 20w? 35w? Seems like no matter what it will be one size fits most at best.
Also would love to see a 10 or 15w "all-terrain" super fast, super tough armoured division with optimized tank design, support companies, MIOs and nation bonuses. Release the armoured spam divisions!
for a 1:31 minute video, I come back to this so often! So packed with info
okay but, where can we get that superb combat width calculator?
Asking for a friend, of course!
I really appreciate how constructive this video is. So right now spamming 10s looks like general strategy and then having 35 tanks to breakthrough
Or 10W as port guards/reserves and 15W as normal infantry, probably 6/1.
Thanks for the video
Thanks for the video!
You're welcome!
Now do it with a pirate voice! 😉
Nice vid. I wish i cared about combat width more. I just make my divisions based on vibes. lol
Amazing content Pure Stat
great vid but what do you recommend for inf? Pre patch I wold just do 21 widths. 9/1
The 7/2s are back in town! 🎶
thanks you so much mate
You're welcome!
Combat width is probably not as important as you'd think. The next time you play hoi4, try to be conscious of where it is affecting you negatively (or positively). You will find that it only ever really matters where the province is either heavily defended, or in defensible terrain, which means it favors the defender. So in other words, combat width only matters when you're fighting a superior foe.
The solution then, is not to optimize combat width, but to optimize your divisions in general, just like the rest of your war machine. The meta division isn't just good because of combat width; it's a *good* division which has been optimized for combat width.
Future Heinz Guderian right here. I like your observation
true, combat width ONLY matters if there are so many divisions in the battle that they're eating up all the available combat width, otherwise it makes no difference if you're running a meta template or a sloppy af 23 width with random BS attached to it.
@@infiniminer7677 If your army is superior, you will eventually win the battle without utilizing full combat width, anyway. That is what i meant to say. I guess i could've rambled a little bit less XD
thats why i often use a lot of 25 width, i need help with mountains not with the other stuff
20 width seems pretty solid too, kinda sad they ducked over 21 now, since that was my “favorite” infantry/Art combo. Guess it’s going to be 7 inf 2 art nowadays, instead of 9 inf, 1 art?
ig we go back to 7/2 meta
@@espressodepresso7546 Yeah.
lmao it's like 7/2 never left
I hate how 21w looks
@@jimmcneal5292 I love the look of 21w.
0:28 you had 6 chances to spell "Version" correctly...
20 still looks decent, I usually don't like to go too low because of the HP leading to higher losses. So I think maybe the go for infantry is 6/1 (15w) or 7/2 (20w)
7/2 back on top! HYPE
Just buy that artillery off the international market, and profit. Now... How to get the army XP to make the template as a minor with the artillery battalion cost nerf...
Seems like 7/2 is back on the menu boys
20 seems like a good all rounder. It isn't optimal but is beefier than the 15 and 10 widths, which would be your stopgap/jungle/low supply brigades.
Thinking of turning off man the guns for a civil warless fashy/commie murica run, doing all my infantry as 20 width motorized except 25 width mountain fighters. Just to see. Might even make a shit ton of 20 width armor just to see how well it performs.
@@christophesiewecke9208grab even 1 military high command. even the 0.2 daily is fine enough for minors
A good alternative could be random infantery at 20w , 25w for montain's purpose, 10w for marines, motorised at 15w, tanks at 35w.
With every new update about the CW it looks like the smaller the division the better, I'm a bit against smaler=better, cause like just let me make a fat 40W tank division. That is what makes me happy.
I guess you make it 35w now?
I kinda like the idea of having a bunch of really versatile 10 or 15 width armoured divisions with great support companies to counter terrain penalties and with really high speed. Fast tank spam seems good? Question is how to counter high piercing with small divisions... 🤔
@@christophesiewecke920810/15W tanks will be too low on org and hp
@@republic0_032 I was afraid of that...
Im still using 20 amd 40 widht divisions
I like the new 10/15/35 meta now. 10w solid infantry for garrisons, 15w 6 infantry and 1 arty for frontliners, and 35w tanks for pushing. For mountains use 25w mountaineers and arty and you're good to go.
TLDR: (also notes for me)
Port guard: 10w
Infantry: 15w (20w?)
Mountaineers: 25w
Tanks/other offensive divs: 35w
I've been finding myself using 20w and just eating the small penalty... I don't like it but 15s are a bit small
@@Pydgin Yeah, I also find the 15w to be a bit small. They do work as I used them in a USSR game but the 20w might give more bang for your buck.
what was the thing that u had that told u the penelty for combat witdths?
Well, in one of the videos paradox did say that seven twos will be the meta
Someone has a 7/2 fetish on the board of execs, I guarantee it!
Dunno if it’s any good, but I organize my armies with 24 infantry divisions with 25 width, consisting of 8 infantry and 3 artillery battalions and my tank armies with 14 motorized or mechanized divisions (6 mot/mech infantry, 1 mot or sp artilley) and 10 armored divisions (5 medium tank, 8 mech infantry and 3 sp). Normally I have like 3 25 width infantry armies to cover ground and 2 tank armies with 15/35 width. If a country has sufficient industry I mechanize the entire army except for 1, which is for difficult terrain and consists of 25 width infantry and mountaineers
I think that 35w is also good for infantry offensive divisions
It does horribly in forests though. I think 30w would be better since it does good in forests and average in everything else except city’s and mountains which are rarer tiles, if your ever fighting in mountains regions like balkans and alps then you can quickly switch to 25
2x 36 Width tanks still work pretty well even with penalty
Yep. Small penalty tbh.
I always used 15 combat width 6/1s for my quick response quality militia, ao i guess thats my army now
thanks, alot of information in a 1:30 video
The intresting question is, did somebody allready made a good combat with calculator for these numbers?
So how should my template look like now? It feels for me way to small to make 15 width infantry templates but thats how the "meta" is now.
Wow, that's a shift. What would you say divisions should look like with these widths?
Use 21-25 for inf 35 armor
Question if Fighting in plains,dessert, hills with the width of 70 is it better to make 3 divisions of 23width than a 35width
bigger units are better, when damage is calculated you take fewer losses and are more likely to de-org them out of a tile. The recent changes to combat width are to balance this. It's better to do two 35s.
Why not 10-15 for tanks too though? Genuine question. After all the combat width changes what is the upside of having larger tank divisions as opposed to more tank divisions?
You can, they're just small. With offensive units you want to stack stats. Low HP means you'll take more damage, and lower attack will mean you do less damage. Fighting in Siberia, western China, sub-saharan africa or South America are better spots for 15-20 width tanks because they use less supply. But if you're in Europe go with at least 30w.
I've been using 25 widths. 8/ 3 The stats are better than 15s and 20s, and mountain/marsh terrain always slows me down. The rest are easier to go through.
Could someone explain to me why 30 width divisions get penalized when attacking from 4 directions in jungle/forest? The width amount would go evenly into the width of the them as they gain more directions , no?
My main infantry unit used to be like this and it worked extremely well before, but now it's not very good, what should I do to improve it with the new meta?
9 infantry
3 artillery
2 anti air
Engineer company
Field hospital
Motorized recon (if I can afford it)
Logistics company (when I'm playing germany)
Support artillery company
Doctrine: modern blitzkrieg
HP
235.2
Soft Attack
216.45
Hard Attack
36.35
Air Attack
41.8
Defense
395.48
Breakthrough
74.8
Piercing
13.947
Combat width
29
Hardness
0.0 %
SO....I can't have one inf or tank division who is ok with all terrain?
Low width divisions still suffer from the same issue as they always have, terrible HP is a massive drain on manpower, sure for those who only play big nations with 100 million manpower, then there countries that are not majors will have issues, manpower is almost harder to come by then the guns you make.
Another issue with low width is the fact that they get stomped hard when they get overwhelmed, whereas a big 40 width could usually hold well against dozens of enemy 30 width, and if they kick one of your 40 width out you reinforce with mass mob instantly, you literally have 2000 - 3000 defence, if you want to play low losses and still defeat Germany without being a cheating toddler, you have to git gud, small width wont win as Netherland against Germany, you have no air superiority, your tanks are ass, but a 40 width mass mob division with fully automatic artillery will slap anything, only downside is you gonna play pingpong with the Germans for a while since they love stacking lots of divisions that attack relentlessly.
But now thats a strat not viable, 35 is decent but you cannot fit two of them in a forest without huge penalties, it seems like its just back to 30 width mass mob, stack as much infantry as humanly possible, you are not gonna get your 3000 defences anymore without veterans and stat stacking, what a shame.
Seems like 20 seems pretty solid though?
20w space marines as Iceland in AAT when!?
Yeah it’s still a pretty decent division
@@christophesiewecke9208let’s gooo
Lo que pasa es que la compañía de ingenieros incrementa a medida que tienes mas batallones en la división. Antes todas las divisiones daban lo mismo teniendo la compañía equipada. Las divisiones de 15 o inferiores son aplastadas por que no tienen nada de atrincheramiento, la de 20 es ligeramente inferior a antes del parche, y 24 es, en mi opinión, increíblemente fuerte en defensa.
No suelo usar la infantería para atacar, desconozco su desempeño en ofensiva.
hermano, como es tu division de tanques.
@@Polo962 Artilleria de Apoyo, Ingenieros, Reconocimiento con Tanque Ligero, Apoyo de Lanzallamas, Logística, 10 Brigadas de Tanques, 10 Brigadas de Caballería. Cuando tengo equipo cambio la Caballería por Mecanizado.
@@johnyvanbaxter4328 graciass
How do you do 35 with tanks? I tried 10 tank brigades with 7 motorized but I got 34
AA or AT adds 1 CW
what width for defense and attack is needed against Germany for France? 15 just fly away from the German?
Its funny that pdx tried so hard to kill off the 7/2 meta only to bring it back
i think 21 width is pretty good, in my experience standard 9 infantry and 1 art battallion are pretty good
it's close enough to 20w which is decent. A few odd combos of terrain and directions of attack will produce some exceeding combat width penalties but honestly you don't have to be perfectly meta with everything in this game to win.
Is there any way u can share the spreadsheet pls
I could there isn't anything outside of the video. It's just the remainder with =MOD(UnitWidth, TerrainWidth)
I'd like to assign weights to wasted width at some point it's not always 1% but it would be a lot of writing to argue my point.
20w still works just fine - things will average out for the most part. Just enjoy the game divisions between 10 and 36 will be just fine.
20 still looks very good to me. Most of the situations when it gets too debuffed are rare and honestly I don’t want to completely change how I build divisions beverage’s I’m lazy
By beverages do you mean beer 🍺 cuz they would surely make a fella lazy
And i thought 30 was the way for most attacking units
Huh. Everything's a multiple of 10 again. Weird - seems to defeat the whole point of the CW changes in the first place.
id think no difference 21 7inf 2 art 1 aa still is good meta losing 10 or 5% is nothing
Lowkey they really need to piss off Divisional combat width and use the Brigades to fill the width instead.
Okay, so 40 width divisions are a thing of the past now?
20 looks okayish.
20 is surprisingly good, 7/2 meta again?
the CW is just cringe imo. juggeling numbers to cuck their AI even more.
7/2 is back on the menu boys
The meta is all 7/2? Always was...
@@christophesiewecke9208 9/2 was better last update.
@@rambleroodle2369 haha I'm aware, I was meme-ing.
I feel like 30 width would be better than 35, because of forests.
tanks give the most bonuses to plains so 35 is better for tanks
My thoughts is I'm stupid...
And will make 10 million 10 width leg infantry with artillery line units and AT support
It's not super cost efficient especially with manpower but I've seen it work, MA for reinforce rate and a simple production line.
I think im gonna stick to 20 widths for defense because 15 widths are just useless in my opinion
24w pure Inf with armor recon that has a high velocity cannon for piercing and upgrade the armor. Add a flame tank with upgraded armor and you can get 20+ armor with 30+ piercing with the soft attack and defense of Inf. Add the AA and pioneer/ranger for better stats and you can survive as France, not lose any ground as the Soviets while you are building up your armor divisions to start pushing. As France release your colonies after and you can get 48 divisions off them + French divisions before Germany invades.
I don't like it. Mainly because with big divisions like 40W even with the penalty you have an advantage over AI because it has no clue how CW works
Can you even make a 35 width?
Not with that attitude you can't!
@@Pydgin lol I don’t mean it like that, like is there a way to make it exactly 35 width instead of 34 or 36? But within the past 12 hours I have watched, read, and experimented to find that artillery is 3 combat width which allows you to make a division 35 width
@@Pydgin video is quite helpful though
Hello
i need template guide as russia
wait so i have to make 20 width for both Tanks and Infntry? my dumbass dont know how to make a 35 width tank template
Making the game less historical by making good divs the size of BRIGADES, very lame!
also encouraging EVEN MORE division spam, instead of any quality units
This is a game breaking new update, if anything they should be increasing the combat width or at least adding more tiles. Both for historical accuracy and for enjoyment, by mid 1 43’ eith mods such as expert AI or improved mechanics the frontline is almost always deadlock because of improved air production and allocation of resources.
Paradox should double the combat width in order to facilitate historically accurate troop numbers, 6 million troops fought at one time on the Easter front while now in hoi it takes less than 3 million to full the combat width.
Tanks are also useless because of low supply caused by the stupid, performance draining, troop limiting supply system. The only thing that matters against AI is supply, the aid movements correlate directly with areas of reasonable supply leading to some of the most stupid looking and unrealistic frontlines.
Sorry for ranting
they turned hoi4 into a 30 width mod :cry: like no1 asked for this
at 30 or 35 you can only optimize for either option, so you're going to have a good set of terrain and a bad set of terrain.
Date is year, then month and day. Internet is not only in 'Murica, and there is more than just 'Murica. Please, refrain yourself from pushing stupid date „formats“ on the rest of us. Nobody is interested.
I'm not from 'Murica what date are you talking about?
at min 0:05 on the bottom yuo wrote the date of the update, not that i care about it honestly@@Pydgin
I can't believe you're complaining simply about a date format.
I'm so sick of entitled crybabies. STFU!
Imagine coping over a damn date
20w is back on the menu
goodbye 21w
Always has been
It never left. Or at least that’s what I always use
@@whitezombie10 (20w)e are so back
@@whitezombie10 21w is better sometimes but 20w still is just fine