Ortofon 2M Bronze VS 2m Blue - Should You Upgrade?
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- čas přidán 15. 07. 2024
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Collecting vinyl records can also lead to a never ending quest of the most amazing audio quality. Today I am reviewing the Ortofon 2M Bronze - Nude Fine Line Stylus and the SH4 Head Shell. Ortofon sent me this Remounted Cartridge combo to test out and see if it would be an upgrade over my Ortofon 2M Blue. SPOILER ALERT - IT IS! Very much so!
I personally think that your system starts with the SOURCE and when listening to vinyl - the Pieces of Vinyl - are the SOURCE - the closest thing the source - is the Stylus and Cartridge which are literally touching the source. So upgrading the phono cartridge can be a really awesome way to get better sound from your system. This Ortofon 2M Bronze is a SERIOUS upgrade!
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Intro - 0:00
Ortofon 2m Bronze Vs. 2m Series - 0:58
Cartridge weight and Sh-4 Headshell - 1:44
Tracking Angle - 2:08
My setup - choosing the right cartridge for your setup - 2:37
What you like - is what you should get - 3:56
Why I Chose to upgrade at all - 4:13
Why not the 2M Black? - 5:24
For the Fluance RT85 - Bronze is better - 6:31
Records I chose as reference - 6:49
Very Clean sound - Nagaoka Considerations - 8:15
My Cartridge history - 9:44
Final Thoughts - 11:08 - Hudba
As a fellow RT-85 owner, I found this to be an EXCELLENT video. Thanks for all the great info!
Thanks for watching! I love my fluance though I wish I would have gotten the bamboo wood - the piano black shows so much dust!
@@PiecesofVinyl Mine's the dark walnut, and it looks great! I've had the Zen iFi Phono since Xmas and it's a fantastic pairing. I think this vid has convinced me to upgrade to the Bronze, but not until after I buy some new speakers first LOL. BTW I've watched a few of your other vids and this was the one that convinced me to subscribe. Very good job, and keep up the great work:)
Found this channel through your interview on the podcast. So glad I got here. Wonderful content my friend. Keep them coming.
Awesome! Trying to keep it going…that was a cool podcast I hope to do more!
Thanks for this video. It helped me decide on the uTurn Orbit Theory with the Bronze instead of the Blue.
Great looking room, Rocco! Thanks for the kind shoutout. You have a professional delivery and the overall presentation here is top tier. Beuatifully done. Cool that the folks at Ortofon sent you the cart to try out. 😎👍
Thanks Rachel! Appreciate the comment. I wanna see a full tour of your setup!
Sooner than later, I suspect, Rocco 🙏
What a great video! Thank you for this! I have a RT85 and I've been wanting to upgrade from the 2M Blue. I've been looking at the Bronze but I still wasn't 100% sure until this video. Thanks so much and your setup looks great! 👍
Same here. I didn't know about the different VTA for Nagaoka. I actually found out today that Nagaoka stylus life is only 150 hours Vs all the Ortofon having a 1000 hour lifespan. Kind of makes Ortofon a clear winner (no pun intended) for those of us that spin records 10 hours or more a week.
Thank you for this very informative video. I also have the RT 85 with the Ortofon blue and have been very happy with it. Thank you very much for explaining the differences between the Ortofon and the Naga cartridges and that they are not interchangeable. I have had this turntable for almost 2 years now and will hopefully be upgrading my stylus soon.
Glad I could help!
@@PiecesofVinyl I just re-watched your video again. Thank you very much again for the great explanation of the do's and don'ts of cartridge applications for the RT 85. I think I am about to make the purchase of the bronze shortly after writing you today. I just listened to Jerry Cantrell's Boggy Depot, and I notice with this album that the bass does have a bit of distortion to it; at higher volume; so I am eager to hear how the Bronze will make this album and others sound. I will have to let you know how it works out. Thanks again, Rich J.
Thanks bro for these videos. I am a newbie and its turning into a deep interest. Right now all I have is a ATLP60. Can't change the stylus there. But I am definitely looking into changing my turntable so I can try out all of these "ear candy" . looking forward to more videos from you. Btw that's one awesome collection. I made my wife listen to the part where you prioritized your wife and family over your vinyl interest coz thats where I am too. She smiled.
Yeah man happy wife = happy life! That said I just got a new turntable - the AT-LP7 stay tuned for reviews about this and other things.
I'm fairly new to vinyl but I've seen the huge difference that a cartridge can make. I had a fairly cheap turntable and threw on a Goldring E3. I guess I was lucky it worked amazing! I now am running a RT-82 have not yet upgraded the cartridge just yet. But I figure moving forward I'll have a few cartridges mounted on shells I can just pop on whenever they are needed.
I got the RT85 and I love the blue but I have been wondering about the bronze and black. Nice to know they sound great on the table. Great Video bro. Thanks!
Great video! I have an RT-83 that has been upgraded with the acrylic platter. I’m currently using a Nagaoka MP110…….so basically, I pieced together an RT-85N before it was even a thing lol.
I did see the same thing on Fluance’s website about the tonearm being slightly taller. However, I have not had any issues and I love the way it sounds.
My amp is a Yamaha A-S501 and I rotate between 2 sets of speakers. The speakers are Jamo S809’s and Klipsch R-51-M’s.
A great vid. Very interesting. Thank you
Very helpful! I have the same TT into a Prima Luna Evo 400 integrated’s on board phono stage option into Cornwall IVs and a Klipsch sub. I have some Classical sprinkled in but the vast majority of my collection is Rock and what used to pass as Metal. Definitely intrigued on the prospect of moving from blue to bronze now thanks to the clarity of the information in your video. Thanks for your effort.
Good luck!
Pre-mounted is absolutely AWESOME
I have a 2M Bronze on my Rega Planar 2 with a RB 250 arm and I am very happy with that.
Just upgraded to bronze from blue on my Rega planar 3. Going through the break-in period but even now I’ve noticed how the sound stage opened up; great imaging.
Never hard of someone who actually used a Fluance and what value for the money. Great video.
Glad I saw this video ..thanks
Good luck with your channel! I’m rocking a Project debut carbon with upgrades acrylic plater, project speed box and Q-up for lifting the tonearm at dead wax point. The turntable came with 2M red and I charged to a Nagaoka PM110 then to PM150. I have two phono stages a schitt magni and Parks audio budgie but now connected directly into my Marantz PM8006 which has a nice phone preamp. One regret I have is selling a Technics SL 1210 MK2 I had but my hope is to get either a Technics GR or a Clear audio someday ✌🏻
Those technics are so legendary and they are built like tanks - I will probably end up getting one of those and call it a day on turntables - with those you can continue to upgrade to all kinds of cartridges.
@@PiecesofVinyl I sold my Technics table when the CD players were released marketed as the end all be all. On the bright side I couldn’t bring myself to selling my record collection most are irreplaceable the turntable is replaceable ✌🏼
Nice review thank you, Many turntables have non height adjustable tonearms but so long as the cartridge height is not to tall (Ortofon make an MR low profile cart line up) any cartridge can be fitted but you will need to shim it to get correct track angle. The shims also add a little to overall weight. It can be done. You can mount that $10,000 dollar cart on your $200 dollar deck just do it!.
All I do is find the cartridge height of the two cartridges. Then calculate the difference in height. Then get a platter mat that matches that appropriate difference. Nag MP-110 to AT VM95ML. Nag is approximately 18.50mm hight and the AT is approximately 17.30mm. The actual difference is 1.2mm. So I just bought a platter mat that was about 1.5mm in height. Close enough imo. Remember older records are thinner than the new stuff so nothing is ever exact. Now if I wanted to go back to the Nag, I'll just remove the mat. Pretty simple. You just shouldn't go larger than the original cartridge, only smaller since you can't take away height.
Good Points!
Nice clean setup! I love my RT-85 paired with a vintage Marantz 2020B (opting to not use a separate phono stage) and a pair of Andrew Jones Pioneer SPB-21R speakers - awesome sound with UHQRs, Tone Poets and Analog Production represses as well as vintage OGs. My home office rig has a Nagaoka MP-110 paired with a vintage Sony 5520 TT into a Fosi Audio 2X Box and Klipsch R-51-Ms - again, great sounds but boy oh boy you’ve got me thinking about moving up to the 2M Bronze… BTW my backup cartridge is the ATVM95ML - an awesome value. Enjoyed your video!
I probably would have gone with those klipsch speakers. Maybe in the future I will try and get them in for a review.
yep. have the rt-85 w/the Ort 2m blue running thru little fosi audio phono tube pre. that goes thru my schiit lokius eq, schiit magnius pre-amp, on to my emotiva a2 basx amp then whatever bookshelf pair i'm in the mood for which is currently micca rb-42's (i'm in a small bedroom office) great video! cheers!
Great information on the VTA! Found your video this morning while researching specs on both cartridges. I was actually considering the Nagaoka MP-200 as an upgrade from the Ortofon Blue for the RT-85 right up until I read a comment in the Fluance Facebook group that had me googling about Nagaoka only having a 150 hour stylus life 😫 That is freaking absurd in comparison to 1000 hour lifespan of all these Ortofon cartridges. It's almost a no-brainer to upgrade my RT-85 to bronze now.
On a side note, since you were curious about what gear people are using with their RT-85... Over the course of two years I tested a dozen different Phono stages with my RT-85, both solid state and tube. The tube stage winner was the Project TubeBox S2, kind of expensive but it's a better stage than any other tube stage I tried. An EAR834 clone came in second place with all the tube stages.
The stage that I landed on permanently and that I use daily is a Darlington Labs MM-6. Darlington uses a high voltage J-FET design and it's hands down the best MM stage that I've ever used. I feel like the full potential of the Ortofon cartridge was finally unlocked immediately when I went to the MM-6. Where every other stage I felt was lacking in some way. Figured I would add some extra useful information about RT-85 upgrades with this comment.
Good to know. I will look into to the Darlington labs stuff.
Most interesting since I also have a fluance RT85 in my system (I'll try to leave a link in another post of my Soundroom System & Collection, since most times CZcams removes any posts with links)
Up until getting the Fluance about a year ago, for the last 25 years or so I've had the British Revolver turntable with a Linn Basik tonearm and for what was pretty cutting edge (pardon the pun) at the time, the classic Flagship AT500DLC Line Contact cartridge which was considered one of the most precise around 30 years ago or so. But, after all these years, I was pretty sure my stylus was getting worn and also I was very curious after hearing all the super great reviews of the Fluance how more modern technology would sound. Well, right off I could indeed tell that yes my old Line Contact cartridge was worn and the Fluance/Ortofon Blue sounded amazingly better!
So, it's great that you took the time to try out the Bronze, because the Microline is much closer in architecture to my old Line contact which I REALLY like. I love the precision of a finer stylus, so that is most interesting that you heard such a difference, and thankfully right 'out of the box' 😊 about 6 months ago or so I was also able to score a new IFI Phono 2 phono amp which had already been discontinued and replaced by the twice as expensive IFI Phono 3 at $1000! And, the sound of that phono amp, also very highly reviewed and praised is quite excellent! Now, I am curious to hear the Bronze, and I'm glad you said that if i did decide to try it, thankfully they apparently did a good job setting it up on the headshell that you can get already mounted, so I would only just have to plug it in 😁 I'll try to leave a link to my Soundroom System & Collections in the next post, but if it is removed, please feel free to click on my name and just check under one of my few videos for links to my stuff if you wish to do so. Thanks again very much Bro for the excellent and most helpful review! 👍
I also wanted to add that I AM very curious though about the AT Microlines, such as the 540ml or 95ml. People have been speaking very highly about those and the precision and detail too. The also cost a lot less. I can get a 540 mounted for about $300, whereas the Bronze by itself (Amazon doesn't have it mounted GRRRRrrrrr!) is about $500.
the finer stylus definitely gets through tougher records - that is something else I have started to notice. I have heard a lot of good things about Gold Ring Cartridges as well.
I upgraded from the blue to the bronze. Was scare pretty expensive. But its worth it, what a difference in sound, voice, depth, instruments basé, treble, Thanks
You know what else will improve your sound? Pulling your speakers away from your walls, and that's free! Maybe a carpet on that hardwood floor too...
I have a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Evo TT, Tube box S2 phono pre amp, Cambridge CXA-81 integrated amp, Elac Carina bookshelf speakers, REL t7x sub (one of the best subs for music for the price) and an Audioquest NRG-Y3 power cable, Austere VII Power strip, and Transparent musical speaker cables. It's beautiful for the price. And I have a son that has been around my gear his whole life and I taught him when he was two how to turn everything on and listen or watch something on my home theater system. When people blame their children for not being able to enjoy something... be a better parent and teach them, you'd be surprised how they respect, learn, confidence building, bonding, etc that helps them and you. It's a win, win. They're not stupid, they just don't know til you teach them.
Def gonna get a carpet but my wife has to pick that. I get to choose the density though! As for the kids thing …better parent or not kids break things. And I want my kids to be kids. So that means the place is usually a wreck. But we have fun! Glad you kids like vinyl.
@PiecesofVinyl good call. Try scooting those speakers out when no one is around at least a foot or two, even three and hear the difference. True, kids will be kids but you can still teach them to be respectful of things. Take care.
RT-85 with the Ortofon Blue, Yamaha RX730 amplifier (1982) and PSB Stratus Silver speakers (1982). I originally had the turntable in line with my AV system, Sony STR-DN1080 with KEF Q750 front, Q250 centre, Q350 back, 4x Q50a front & back and 2x Cube10b. While CD's and HD audio sounded great, it didn't do my vinyl justice. I sampled the Bronze but I went back to the Blue, it just had a more rounded 'je ne c'est quoi' over the Bronze.
Rocco, THANK YOU for doing this review. I am no longer on the fence. I just had a conversation with my local HiFi shop guy about this exact thing. Awesome, yet again..!
I think you will be very happy with it!
@@PiecesofVinyl😊
@@PiecesofVinyl😊
@@PiecesofVinyl😊
@@PiecesofVinyl😊
Hey Rocco. Great vid, man. I really dig your set up. It seems like it’d have some good synergy going on. Glad you like the 2M Bronze. I had one for a while and really liked it, especially mounted to one of those Ortofon headshells. I love the super long finger lifts on em that make cueing up a record really easy. The 2M Bronze, as you mentioned, really does bring out more detail.
Thanks so much for the very kind shoutout. It means a lot. I’m obviously very passionate about this stuff, and you’re welcome to hit me up anytime. Thanks again, Rocco! 🔊😊🎶
Thanks - I also like the longer finer holder - something I didn't think id notice but I actually do. I will sure to be back in the future for more tips - Im gonna probably look into upgrading my speakers next - but after a lot more vinyl!
@@PiecesofVinyl Nice! I was looking for a new pair of speakers about 4-5 yrs ago, and auditioned over 15 different ones. I ended up getting a pr of Tekton Pendragons. Eric, the owner, designer, CEO talked to me for about an hour, and Instead of trying to upsell me, he did the opposite. I ended up saving around $1K, and ended up with amazing speakers that I’ll likely have for life. No more upgraditis…lol
Any records you’re specifically looking for? I’ve got a pretty big collection I’m looking to downsize a bit. If I’ve got anything you’re looking for, I’d be happy to send it your way.
One thing is certain; Ortofon KNOWS carts.
After much (too much) research , tech specs, videos…
I went with the 2mr series (blue) which is designed for Rega-type low profile arms (like my RB300. Waiting for it to arrive and the install should be easy as it won’t requires spacer to achieve the VTA.
I don’t have many LP’s …but I enjoy them.
Thanks.🇨🇦
Did the upgrade from a AT PRO 11E to a Ortofon Blue on my Garrard DD 455 after my wife got the UHQR Hotel California record for my Birthday. Worked out well, sounds great and no issues with tracking.
That is a great Bday present - audiophile vinyl!
Hey Rocco, I just got finished watching your interview with Chance at Concert Buddie. Great conversation.
Interesting comment you made here about the stylus is the only thing touching the record in regards to performance. I immediately thought that makes sense. Its like a Ferrari and the tires. Sure you can go 200mph but the tires are what hug the road and give you that handling performance. The car is useless if you can't control it. Maybe that's a poor analogy but it makes sense in my head.
That’s a spot on analogy. My friend and who is a big car guy has said a car with good tires can do a lot more then a better car with bad ones! Also I think this is the entire premise/plot to days of thunder!
I’ve been using the Bronze for a while now. I think it’s pretty great. I have a black stylus upgrade in waiting. Not sure if my system will really benefit from the black but I guess I’ll find out in a month or two
As long as you can adjust the tracking angle it should be amazing. The shibata stylus is way more fine and can get farther into the groove. That’s they the tracking angle is so precise with that one.
Thanks, have the bronze coming next week. Replacing an OM 30 which sounds great but ....... Pro-Ject tube pre-amp for Debut turntable.
I'm still very happy and content with my 2MRed. I find that most record recordings differ from one another and there are certain records that sound amazing with my 2MRed while others not as good based on the recordings. The price on cartridges are absurd and these companies have to be getting filthy rich off of them. I mean how much cost goes into making them from one to the next to justify their insane price points. I notice that most people are never satisfied enough with their upgrades and feel like they have to keep climbing the ladder to the point to where they're spending more on a cartridge than a high end turntable which makes no sense at all considering the difference in cost of materials. But this is just my own opinion and everyone has a right to their own.
So true - it’s hard to admit to yourself that the large purchase you have just made is not a significant improvement it’s just different. I had wondered about cartridges too - if the manufacturing cost was pretty similar.
It depends on what you mean by "making them". Before a product can be manufactured it must be designed and tested. Then there are overhead, marketing and distribution costs. The mark up for cartridges is probably about the same as for other stereo equipment.
If I were you I would have a piece of foamcore cut at the size of your window to put on the windowsill when listening! It should vastly improve you sound since it will cut the return off of the hard surface! Great video as usual!
I just upgraded to some better curtains. Actually 2 curtains one blackout and one sheer. So my hope is some sound reflection will be reduced with that.
@@PiecesofVinyl that’ll work great!!!
Also.....I subbed! Good stuff!
Thanks for the sub!
I was using this preamp (Fosi Audio Box X2 Phono Preamp). I bought the iFi Audio Zen Air Phono and my sound went to hell. I returned the iFi Audio Zen Air Phono and went back to the Fosi with upgraded tubes and I'm very happy!
Thanks for the review and very helpful. I’m old school from dj generation from the 90’s and 00’s and still getting use to one turntable setups bc back then many folks into vinyl had dj setups with 2 turntables,
But I’m glad vinyl is made a string come back. But most now collect vintage vinyl, where in the past most were excited to go to recurs store to find the newest music and that was mainly the excitement and motivation for the hunt. Anyway, just getting back into vinyl and starting with getting stuff I used to have, but like I said, I wish new music was being put out on vinyl and I’m not talking reissues of the classics or some pop artist like Taylor Swift. No offense to those into her and just not my thing.
A lot of people today are buying new re issues. That said - if you are looking for some great new music also released on vinyl check out Daptone records - Big Crown Records - Colemine Records - Diamond West Records. All have new artists cutting new vinyl - on tape!
I'm going to have to give the Ortofon Blue another chance. I've been entranced by my Audio Technica VM540ML, and Denon DL-110, so it's just been sitting there all forlorn.
Well that was a treat. I am older and a fair bit further down the rabbit hole, I have a project x-tension 9 table with an ortofon 2m black, not the LVB 250 it came out after I set this up. Previously I had a revolver rebel with a Sumiko blue point special, high output MC,. So a hard comparison as the new set up is many levels in price above my old, tho not original, set up. I would save that the ortofon is more precise sounding than my previous but that might be said about my complete system which was put together in the 90’s or early 2000’s. It’s a tough decision as the ortofon is so silent in combination that is makes some of my records from the 80’s almost impossible to listen two but the classic jazz and rock records (70’s) sound amazing. To hear Yes, Closer to the Edge with this set up is revelatory
this is good to know....I have a 2M black coming in soon!
Hate to throw a wrench, but unless all of your records are perfectly flat, your vta will be off. If you play 180gram records, your vta will be off. In my experience just get the vta close to what it's supposed to be and your good. Any fluctuation weather it be up or down of the tone arm and the vta will be off. Glad you found a cartridge that you like.
we’ve been thinking of upgrading from the blue…this may have finally swayed us.
I think you will be happy.
I've got a 2M bronze that I purchased along with a red Rega P3 turntable a few years ago. One of the reasons I went with the bronze is that quite a few review comments mentioned that it was really good with mono records. I've got Beatles, Stones, and Dylan mono box sets so it seemed like a natural choice. I'm really happy with the bronze (and a record weight improves it even more). I bought an iFi Zen phono preamp along with their upgraded power supply but I haven't put it in the system yet. Gotta get that done.
Is there any CZcamsr's listening room that doesn't get hammered in the comments?
No room is perfect. Especially when you have kids! I hadn’t heard that about the mono stuff but I have listened to a lot of mono records on it and they do sound awesome!
Thanks a lot for this video! I was about to make the huge mistake of buying the 2M Black for my Pro-Ject Carbon Debut, which also does not allow for the adjustment of the tracking angle.
You COULD try it out - and if doesn't sound good - send it back - I am not sure what the VTA is set to on the Pro-Ject.
I have an RT-85 and an SL-1200GR. I enjoy them both. The RT-85 still has its 2M Blue (Awesome cartridge). Its connected to my PC room system via a Sprout 100. I have a Sumiko Wellfleet on my SL-1200 using an iFi Zen Phono Stage. I still dont think i have the VTA nailed down on the Technics.
I admire you for your golden ears that can determine the details between the Blue and the Bronze with your smaller bookshelf Sony speakers. That would be where I would start looking for improvements not with the phono cartridge. Try Harbeth p3, Sound Artist 8b, Q Accoustics, Kef ls50 or some other brand you might like, otherwise you are going on a wild goose chase and missing out on musical definition and natural tone. Even a nice pair of headphones might open things up as far as imaging and frequency response; but generally, those small bookshelf speakers seem better suited for near field or computer use.
I’m have a very nice set up sennheiser headphones as well as a separate headphone amp designed for them. The Sony speakers punch high above their weight. Go check out @cheapaudioman he has a great channel and recommends great hi fi choices that don’t break the bank. The Sonys will be replaced at some point but I have too much vinyl I want at the moment.
I'm a massive newbie when it comes to turntables and setups in general. I got a (please don't hate me because I know they get a ton of hate) Crosley C-100, that I got for my birthday, which got me into wanting to start collecting. It's not a bad turntable by any means and I do plan on saving up for a AudioTechnica LP-120X. My speakers right now are "low-level" but I have a pair of Edifier MR4's.
Don't be afraid to be a newbie! We all were at some point - even though some people forget! I kinda still am really! I think Crosley Suitcase players get a lot of hate because they are kinda cheap and gimmicky and still cost more then a good entry level table. From what I can see - the C-100 is pretty solid and only slightly underneath the specs of the LP120X - I probably wouldn't upgrade from the C100 to that. I would hold off - of course get more records - try different pre amps, and cartridges (modestly) and then when you are ready to upgrade (if you like direct drive table) go for a Technics 1200 series and that will probably be the last table you ever need! Thanks for watching!
Hi just want to mention I have the ortofon
2M bronze cartridge myself. I really did not care for that much. It is an improvement over the blue which I also have. But I found that the gold ring 1012 GX made a world of difference. Probably doesn’t cost any more than the ortofan bronze But has a date and night difference in sound and detail.
I wouldn't be able to use that cart on my TT at the moment (the Fluance) since it has a different tracking angle. I will most likely check this out in the future though im sure!
I’ve made up my mind and plan to purchase a U-Turn Audio Orbit Theory TT. It comes stock with the 2m Blue but the Bronze can be optioned in. Your video may have just helped me talk myself into making the jump now instead of latter. Thanks!
what finish did you choose? I like the wood with the acrylic platter.
@@PiecesofVinyl for the Theory line they only offer two solid wood choices at this time. I went with the “Ebonized Oak” which is dark grey. I did end up getting the 2m Bronze. Needles to say, I can’t wait for it to arrive.
@Bondrkmz how are you liking the Orbit Theory and Ortofon Bronze? I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on buying the Theory (ebonized oak as well), but on the fence about upgrading to the Bronze. I'm skipping on the built-in preamp and plan to use the mm phono stage in my integrated amp (Cambridge Audio Evo 150), but read in some forums the Bronze could be bright sounding if you dont have preamp that matches well, and thus could need to upgrade to an external preamp where you can adjust the gain.
@@rlokes_100_at_jahoo
I’m liking it a lot. It’s hard for me to determine if the bronze upgrade over the blue is worth it because this is my first quality turntable I’ve ever owned. So, nothing to compare it from.
I’m using the built in mm phono stage in a Emotiva PT1 preamp, with the Emotiva A2 power amp. Sounds fine to me.
@@Bondrkmz "Needles to say..." - very good accidental pun!
hope you enjoy the new player.
2m blue with ifi zen phono, noted! I'm looking into atlp120x upgrades
Yes. I was recommended that combination from @cheapaudioman it seems the entire Ortofon sings well with the ifi zen phono stage.
Buy one! I did and it's amazing compared to the Blue. I wasn't sure the RT-85 would be that much better with the Bronze but it's a huge difference to me...
Thanks, upgraded the red to the blue , “ sounds “like that’s enough! Oh ,I have a debut carbon and a Moon phono preamp.
Now ….more vinyl.
The Debut carbon comes standard with the 2M red but it really should have the 2M blue as standard. The Moon phono preamp would take your phono system to a whole new level compared to many who use either the 85 or the carbon TTs. For those with lesser phono preamps, or integrated ones in receivers, upgrading to a better stylus may not be the best upgrade. Upgrading the phono preamp can also make a huge difference in sound. Only trial and error will confirm what is best for your set-up.
Nice you can swap out the needle on the Ortofon rather than sending in the whole cartridge to be re-tipped rebuilt which is as expensive or more than the needle highlighted here. Next on the want list, two tone arms on one turntable
I just upgraded 2m black to 2m black lbv 250 and the difference is huge, it has me digging back out my rock albums because it kicks like a mule! Everything is much improved, extended high frequencies with shimmering clarity, improved mid-range and bass that is unbelievable. Killed most any and all sibilance.Digging out some nuances I have not heard but even when hearing the same notes it seems like I am hearing more of the note. If I was doing a blind test I would have sworn somebody changed the amplifier. Using 1998 Technics sl-1200 MK5, project tube box s phono preamp with audioquest interconex. Other cartridges I have.. ortofon om 40 feitz Geiger 70, Audio-Technica 440 MLB. They are fantastic cartridges but not in the same league as ortofon 250 LVB.
interesting to see there is that much difference with the LBV 250 from the normal black.
@@PiecesofVinyl I was not expecting the cartridge to excel in rock and roll, I thought it would be great for string instruments and orchestration and it is but what it does for my rock and roll is incredible. I have been listening mostly to jazz but this cartridge has me digging out my rock and roll and cranking it up! On another note I just purchased a Vincent SV237MK hybrid tube solid-state integrated amplifier that I have been longing for but after listening for a couple of days I will probably put my old Onkyo TX 8511 and techniques 7-band graphic equalizer back in its place. The Vincent is extreme audio file with sparkling Crystal clear highs and such but it does not handle and drive the bass in my speakers the way the Onkyo does. Onkyo is tight and hard-hitting, Vincent was fat sounding Bass. Onkyo TX 8511 is an absolute workhorse and has been trouble free since I purchased it in 2005. Probably has well over 25,000 on it. But for it to sound good it must be paired with my thirty-year-old Technics 7 band graphic equalizer, the difference is like night and day. The build quality of the Vincent on the outside is much better, it is a beautiful amplifier with solid controls with 150watt 8ohm 250 4ohm class A B with the first 10 watts being all class A. Onkyo is very plain looking with plastic knobs and outside casing nowhere near as heavy as the Vincent. When I purchased the Onkyo new it was $300 and can now probably be purchased for around $100 on eBay. Vincent sv237 set me back $2,000 but the Onkyo is a force to be reckoned with!!! I had read a review where somebody on the Onkyo TX 8511 and they said they had to spend over $2,000 to find a integrated amplifier that would beat it, that was probably six or seven years ago before the economy blew up. In a nutshell I am blown away by the increase in sound quality with the lbv 250 cartridge and rather disappointed with my$2,000 Vincent SV 237. Long live Technics tx-8511 with thirty-year-old Technics 7-band graphic equalizer!!!... Got some Rotel separates on the way, I bet they will drive my cerwin-vegas the way they need to be driven. I have never invested this kind of money into stereo equipment but crutchfield has a generous 60-day return policy.
Thanks for the video. I started with a 2M Blue on my Technics SL 1200 Mk2 which sounded great then upgraded to the Bronze and was blown away. Very detailed with great separation. I'm due for a new stylus so I'll be picking one up soon. My system consists of Martin Logan Motion 15 speakers driven by a PrimaLuna Prologue Premium tube amp and a Yaqin MS23B (LesBox modded) tube preamp/phono stage. Perfect for my small office/listening room. Cheers!
Have you replaced the stylus yet? Despite what Rocco says, you can replace a Blue stylus with a Black stylus, and have a proper Black Cartridge. This is confirmed on the "Phono Cartridge Upgrade Tutorial | How to upgrade within the 2M Series" clip from Ortofon.
@@DonGreenAus I have not replaced it yet. Unexpectedly got laid off. Probably after I find a new job.
new to your channel, thanks for the very comprehensive video, which explains a lot -
i like your comment about your vinyl uptaking your equipment, but i noticed you speaker look very cheap - my feeling is that you would get a much bigger improvement by upgrading them before the needle?
that is always the question - the source or the speakers or the amp? These Sony speakers are very good for their price. I do plan on trying out some other options in 2024 but for now these things really kick ass.
I have the ortofon 2M Red,Blue, and Bronze and I’m running an RT85 as well. I guess I was expecting a life changing moment when I dropped 6 bills on the bronze last year but was pretty let down. I do not think the bronze is worth $600. I guess I was looking for more low end for that kind of bread. But I’m sorry, the bronze just isn’t worth six hundred dollars.
It’s not a low end beast. More clarity and I use a sub. So that helps.
I downgraded from Bronze to Blue. I find the Blue a great value, and the performance gained by listening to the Bronze wasn't enough to justify the cost. I love Ortofon carts because of their immaculately accurate sound; they are not trying to add anything to the bottom end like other cartridge manufacturers.
Blue is really a downgrade how? Just because of price? I ask because I am looking at getting a new stylus for my current setup. I've been looking at the Blue. Is it really a great value on your setup?
@@memyselfmyvinyl894 I feel like I answered that question in my comment, but I thought that the blue was good enough that the extra cost of bronze wasn't worth it, but that is my subjective opinion.
I found there to be a very noticeable difference from the blue to the bronze. I thought it was worth the upgrade but it’s one of those things where if you don’t have the other to compare you will be very happy with the blue. The blue has a different magnet and cartridge type so that plays into a lot as well. The stylus on the bronze is different as well.
I'll be UPgrading from the 2m Red to the 2m Blue one day. I hope the difference I hear will be worth it.
@@rosswarren436 The most significant difference is that the blue tracks the record so much better than the red. There is a lot less distortion with the blue, especially as the cartridge moves toward the inner grooves of the record.
Great video. I have an RT85 and a premounted bronze ready to go on it. You mention a small adjustment you had to make to fit the new cartridge. Could you describe the adjustment? Cheers.
I used a cartridge alirgnment tool and just had to make a very very slight adjustment. Probably would have been fine not doing this. This is not for the VTA but where the records rides left to right.
I think you should upgrade your turntable. The Technics SL-1200GR/1210GR or SL-1500C are excellent choices. You can adjust the VTA easily, allowing you to mount any cartridge you want, like the Ortofon 2M Black.
My wife vehemently disagrees with you🤣
I bought one of those and you are spot on. I just wish the tonearm was of the same class of my Rega planar III. But on balance the Technics is a bargain at 1700 bucks. Just overall a well engineered machine
@@musicman8270 I have a Technics SL-1600MK2 and a SL-1210GR. When I think of high quality, solid turntables, I think of Technics. Did you get the 1200 or 1210?
@JasonGS919 I bought the 1210, the black one. I've had several (including a belt drive) but this is my first new out of the box one. I see megabucks tables and can't understand how they charge 1700 for this one
@@musicman8270 Technics knows how to do it
My U-Turn Orbit TT came with a 2m Red. I can upgrade to the 2m Blue by simply changing out the stylus. Might do that one day. If I ever move up to a better TT (a Technics maybe?), I could see the Bronze as a contender along with some by Grado and others.
If you did get something with an adjustable tracking angle you can experiment with more options too!
@@PiecesofVinyl that is very good information to have to keep from making a mistake. Thank you!
I have an AT-LP140XP, and I am tempted to move into a Bronze, but I am unsure if it's worth it. The turntable isn't the best in the world, and the tonearm was adjusted by me to tighten things up (but not professionally).
Right now I've got a VM95ML on there and it's decent enough, but I have to believe there's something better out there I could be using with this turntable. AT discourages using moving coil cartridges with it because the noise floor's too high, so I'm more or less stuck in the moving magnet realm, and I've heard that the 2M's are pretty decent (except the Red).
You can adjust the tracking and I have seen people put the Black Cartridge on to the AT-LP140 and they loved it. I am not sure about MM vs MC carts - I have never had a MM cart (I think). You can always get it from Amazon and return it if you don't like it!
Excellent video. Also, I noticed those great vinyl cases (the white ones). Where did you get them?
I think you are referring to the 45 ones? Those I got from hhv.de they have good vinyl too. Or the bigger ones for the LPs those are ikea Kallax.
@@PiecesofVinylthanks man, appreciate it.
With the ubiquity of Ikea shelving for records, The size of a collection should be rated in Kallax units. Not all of my shelves are Ikea, but I think I've got about 35 Kallax units of records.
I like that. I could get a good understanding of the size of your collection based on Kallax units!
The blue tracks better on Hot pressings in my experience, and is more forgiving than the bronze
The Ortofon is a poor match for Fluance turntables due to the cartridge/tonearm resonance frequency being close to 5 Hz. The ideal resonance frequency for a cartridge/tonearm should be between 8-11 Hz. Of course that's just theoretical. If it sounds good to you then I guess that's all that matters.
I use Technics SP10 mk2 with Fidelity Research FR64FX withShure M35C eith UREI 1122 phono Stage
Nice video but I would out that fluance Turntable for Technics, Upper Project or Thorens
One day…
@@PiecesofVinyl I bought a Technics 1500c & was happy with it
I just got the JBL tt 350..and ordered the 2m bronze..1.7? grams mine is set at 2.0...good review since this is a $500 cartridge..
I have been curious about the 2M red and blue, currently im running the audio technica vm95ml with my technics sl1200 mk2 , itno my fosi audio box x2 running Voskhod Rocket 6J1P tubes then into my alesiselevate5 powered speakers.
I would go with the Blue over the Red - but the red is really great is that is all you can go with - I trick myself all the time into needing new things - just did it yesterday!
I replaced my 2m blu with an inexpensive MC and regret it. The blue sounds better. Currently waiting for the 2m black to get here. Cant wait to compare with the blue, which is currently on my RP3 in my secondary system
Really nice review. I currently own a U-Turn Theory TT w/the Blue cartridge. It had been decades since I listened to vinyl. I got my collection of my albums and started to clean, catalog and listen. I have about 250 lps that I am thoroughly enjoying listening to again. I was blown away by the sound when I first dropped the needle! Compared to what I remember on my old TT and some cartridge back in the 70s and 80s. Anyway, I am using my TT with a pair of Sonos Fives. So, all converted to a digital signal. The TT has the built in Pluto preamp. I am wondering if upgrading to bronze from blue , given my setup, would make a difference. Can the Sonos speakers even take advantage of the upgrade? UTurn does sell ther TT with the bronze, so I know it’s compatible, just not sure it’s worth it with Sonos and my older albums. Cheers and thanks for any feedback.
Thanks for watching! I would consider stepping up to an amp and speakers before moving to the bronze. I think there might be a bottle neck with the Sonos. But - the Sonos is handy and if you are happy with the sound of the blue…buy more vinyl!
@@PiecesofVinylthanks. That’s what I figured. I’ll stay with Blue. Cheers
12 minutes of waffling 🤯🚨
What kind of pre amp docyou have? I've been looking at one for my setup and I like the tube pre amps also plus I just want to see if it will inhanse my listening experience more then the built in prr amp that's in my set up.
If you are asking about the phono stage - I use the ifi zen phono and it’s amazing. I made a video about its little brother too. I have that on a second setup in the house. Both are very good.
Why does it appear that you have two zen phono pre-amps stacked on top of each other in your setup? What models are they? Thanks, I liked your Ortofon comparisons with the fluence rt85, which is the table I'm eyeing to buy.
It’s the zen phono stage and then the zen can signature headphone amp. RT 85 is a solid option.
I do not own the Fluance TT but every single review I've ever read or listen to rates that RT85 has the best turntable under $1,000, so that is saying a lot about that model. I did read that someone put on an Audiotechnika AT-VM95SH/H (Shibata cut) in place of the Ortofon Blue and they claim it did wonders for the sound, and it was a perfect fit for the Fluance. Not suggesting everyone go run and get one of those ATs because I have NOT heard the difference between the two, but if someone wanted to experiment and send the AT back if it failed the experiment, or kept it if it did do better, it would be interesting to hear their take on that cartridge.
I saw a post of a guy that used the Black on the Fluance and he loves it - at that price point though I wouldn't want to risk it and have it not work and I would constantly be thinking it could be dialed in better with a VTA adjustment - and who knows maybe on these cases it could have been.
Got a question. I have a AT14sa with a Viviline stylus. Is it pretty much a literal move to the 2m Bronze from that?
I am not sure. I am not familiar with the AT14sa.
I have a Fluance RT84 and I love my "blue" , but I'd be willing to try a bronze! I have to get a job first!😮😂😅
It's a notable upgrade - but the blue is no slouch!
I had asked Ortofon if there is any problem with Black to a Fluance RT85. There is no. Its same with all 2M. Ortofon should know this.
You can certainly try it - I think they are trying to be cautious since you are going to spend a good amount on this - they want you to be happy - and if you dont get the results you want on the RT85, then you might be stuck since you cant adjust the VTA - the Black (or any shibata) stylus do need some more fine tuning in some cases.
How are these compared to the OM10,20,30,40 that Ortofon makes/made? I have an OM20 that I like but it was a bunch of years ago that I bought it so I'm sure I'm due for a new one soon.
I am not sure I have never tried any of those ones.
I had the red, felt it was dull and lifeless. Went to the blue and that was better with detail and air. Went to the Bronze and that was what I wanted to hear
The Bronze works great on that table. It’s much smoother sounding. The black can be too analytical. The black is also too much cartridge for that table. Bronze is a good value
I really like the bronze. I’m happy!
You should check out the MC Quintet Black S.
Slow down! I just got the 2M black - o haven’t ventured into MCs yet - but one day!
@@PiecesofVinyl MC Quintet Black S is one of the best cartridges I have ever listened to. That's why I have one. :-)
I'm debating upgrading from my Sumiko blue point #2 to the #3. Sumiko discontinued the #2 but I have only 300 hours on my #2. In sum, the sylis has hundreds of hours of life left. So is it worth spending the money? That is the question.
I don’t know much about those.
How about an Ortofon stylus on a Silver cart body mounted on a Stanton T92 turntable?
If that’s all you got and it works - buy more vinyl!
Currently have the rt85 with the 2m blue. I have a u-turn Pluto 2 pre amp should I look into getting a tube pre amp? I want the best match for the ortofon blue
I dont know. I don’t have a tube phono stage. I have the ifi zen phono stage and it sounded great with the 2m blue.
@@PiecesofVinyl thank you sir! I’ll look into that one!
Will the ortafon headshell fit on my audio technica turntable?
If the Audio Technica has a removable head shell on the tone arm - then yes....I have the AT-LP7 and I used it on that and it was amazing.
Hey, I too have a vintage P-mount TT. What cartridge do you recommend? I've only seen ones by Audio-Technica (low end) and better ones by Grado (their Prestige line) that are currently in production. Are you aware of any others? THANKS!
I have only ever used this Stanton 720 p mount. I was recommended it a long time ago when I got this technics turntable. It’s not bad.
@@PiecesofVinyl thank you! I'll do a search for one tomorrow and see what comes up.
If you can find a Pickering, they made great P-Mount carts as well.
Classic rock guy. How does this cart perform on the likes of Dokken or Def? Thanks great content on all your vids.
I’ve been listening to all of my Sabbath Rhino Vinyl AAA editions from mid 2000s for a future video - and they sound great! There is a lot of mid range but when the bass hits it’s really good. Thin Lizzy Sounds amazing same with Pink Floyd - DSOTM 30th. I’m thinking about doing a video on Def Leppard - 45s from pyromania that make up the cover.
@@PiecesofVinyl now that would be sweet! Thank for these videos - so smooth and easy to watch.
What do you mean I can get whatever I want? This is not what I was told, this hobby is
Hi Rocco, I saw you on Rachel’s channel, I was just wondering about your turntable, it runs for about $499 and the bronze cart is just about the same price. I think for your Fluance turntable I would just stick with the blue Ortofon. I think it’s proper match.
it is a great cartridge for it I probably would be just fine sticking with it. its one of those things for me where - I see there are two better cartridges out there - why not try them and see what sounds better? I think eventually I will own a set of Technics TT's which run about $1200 each - I want two so I can do 1 to 1 record comparisons - I find it hard to really compare when you have to take the record off and pull out the next one - and I have seen people put extremely expensive Carts on those that are way more expensive then the TT. To me - "the thing that spins the record" needs to operate solidly and I I find the Fluance hold up well - but beyond the bronze probably not.
@@PiecesofVinyl If you can find a used Technics Turntable 1200 mk. I highly recommend those, they are a working horse TT. You will never need another one. I have one from the late nineties with a m97 Shure cart I bought back in 2017 and a new Jico stylus replacement. Beautiful natural sound with excellent tracking.
I have black cartridge and I downgraded stylus from black to bronze, I'm much happier and sound is fuller and more coherent than black.
Might be the dialing of the VTA. I have heard is it’s not perfect for the black it can cause degradation
And although the manufacturer claims that the bronze stylus can only be replaced in the upper segment (black), has anyone tried to put bronze in a blue 2m cartridge? And what are the results?
It probably works. But it most likely won’t sound as good. The entire cartridge is different from the bronze to the blue.
You should buy a rega rp3 then you’d be done it’s a great turntable
I think if I get another table it will be a technics sl1200 and a pair of them. To be Abel to do proper A B comparisons on stuff.
@pieces of vinyl what shelves are you using?
I use the ikea Kallax shelves. But the 2x2 version. Since the 2x4 version has the shelves supported only by the wooden dowels.
@@PiecesofVinyl thank you so much, I noticed the UHQRS etc fit. If I contact you via the site can I show you my setup?
Btw I loved your statements about set up and sound quality. I have a very nice set up and people think you need to spend more to get more and the truth is the music comes first, then you grow into what life permits. I subscribe to you channel based on the points of views. The content is just a bonus. Thank you.
my Ortofon om10 has the tracking angle 20° and I would like to upgrade to some cartridge with 22 °. how crucial is 2° of difference if I don't want to adjust tonarm height?
depending on the sensitivity of the stylus it could be a lot. if you can adjust the tracking angle - you should do that.
Good question. I wonder if adjusting the position of the cartridge on the head shell would cover the differences? As far as I am aware, head shells have the ability to position your cartridge further from the end of the tonearm, or closer. This should be able to help you make any necessary fine adjustments.
I recently upgraded my OM 10 with an OM 20 stylus on a Dual 455-1 turntable and the sound improved. I expect that the conversion introduced no issues.
Changing your speakers will make a larger difference
Is there a performance upgrade from the Red all the way to the black? Yes, there is. But each performance upgrade is more subtle than than the previous one. Are they worth the price performance? No, they are not. Of all the hobbies, the world of the audiophile has more flotsam than any other.
2M Bronze vs MP-200? I'm thinking of upgrading from my current MP-110 on my RT85N. Help PLEASE!!!!!
My friend prefers the mp200 to the bronze. I think the bronze has more clarity but I have personally have never heard the nagaoka.
@@PiecesofVinyl Thanks! Yeah I ordered the MP-200. Lots of people seem to like it.