Five 5" Motor Myths Tested, are any of them true? 2207 vs 2306
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- These 5" Motor Myths have been repeated time and again, but are any of them backed up by the real data?
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AOS Frames: www.aos-rc.com/ - Věda a technologie
I love that you are just consistently dropping the mic on all these hype trains out there 🔥🚂 Thank you for your service!
Facts 👊🏼
You have no idea how much research I did for my first 5", and right this moment, you come around with the absolute perfect video for my questions. Thank you so much for your very high quality research, helpful as always.
Great vid, thanks! I’m glad you get to the point and don’t ramble on for 23 minutes 👍🏼😁
Glad you liked it!
I'm sitting on the side of a windy old hill watching my scale asw28 flying overhead and learning about motors. Bardwell in my heart & Rosser in my head. ❤😎
Thanks for this timely info. Looking forward to your next videos. Now I know what size, just have to decide on kv for 5in 6s. Glad we have you here contributing in this field.
Mid kv is 1700 or 1750, very nice for 6S 5", unless youre racing
I love your scientific approach on FPV topics! Please keep up your amazing work, you are a gift to the community!
Better explained or better explained, a precise and concise approximation allowing me to open my mind to knowledge previously without any possibility of understanding. Thank you very much Dr.
Thanks for doing the testing! In the end a 2306 has less stator volume than 2207 so these results aren't too surprising. Great presentation.
Spot on, the bigger motor has more top end as we would expect 😁
Once again, love how you shine light on these myths with data.
Great stuff. I've got quads with 2207 and 2306 and they all run great but still cool to listen to Chris get all in the weeds.
Gosh I love your testing rig and those results!!! This helps so much!
Well done, Chris. Some of my opinions have definitely changed thanks to your video. I'll still be running wider stators for their cooling performance (I live right on the equator) but it looks like I'll need to be getting 6s motors in the future
Right on :D
Straight to the point. Thanks again for the great content you put out there!
Chris, this is amazing. Thanks for these tests. It always pissed me off when people say 2306 is more low end torque and more efficient lol. But I didn't have data to back it up.
Absolutely, I was told the same and had to test it!
But it absolutely is true for the way freestylers fly and the graph proves it. You need a higher throttle value with a 2306 to get the same thrust as a 2207. Freestylers need precision in the low end of the throttle and responsiveness in the top end. So 2306 will always provide more precision at low throttle and less responsiveness at high throttle when compared to 2207. I also remember a Rotor Riot episode where Vanny and Le Drib were able to identify the two motors in a blind test based on that same observation.
@@kandredfpv As Chris mentioned, if you want low end throttle control and resolution it's better to use the Throttle Expo in Betaflight. Which makes more sense and you can tune it more to your liking.
@@BowserMG absolutely agree, there is no question about that. The point I am making is the graph does show there is a difference in throttle resolution so it isn't accurate to say it's a myth.
@@kandredfpv 2306 is just weaker lol, that's it, nothing fancy in there.
2207 motors will sold out tomorrow 😁
YAAAS! Knew 2207 = better. Muahaha.
2207 contain so much S B A N G pwoer
@@ptixcc314 exactly.
Thanks for doing these great technical analysis videos. I admit to having a few surprises in this one, though these were on details on which I did not have a strong opinion. On the other hand, thanks for quantifying one thing that I have understood and agreed with for a long - that running a higher Kv motor with a throttle limit is far from being equivalent to running the right Kv motor in the first place. There is a huge lack of understanding in our community about the effects and relationship between motor Kv and torque. Even our friend Bob Roogie is challenged in understanding this, though he does seem to be learning. :-)
Looking forward to seeing more of your technical analysis videos...
Kabab stumbled upon different KV for different motor size at same time I believe. He didn't bench tests as well.
Awesome data Chris!
Nice vid Chris! Relevant, concise and still fun!
great video! love the testing of FPV-Myths
Thought I left my comment but apparently not lol 😅 this video is definitely one of my favorites from you well done 👏 I am in the process of slowly changing out all my 2207 2750 kv motors I was using for 4s but have been using on 6s with lowering the motor output limit and this was nice to know for me I will be sticking with 2207 for my preferences and getting lower kv for better efficiency of consumed power on 6s. Thanks for these awesome videos Chris!
Very interesting topic. I was kinda curious about 4S motors running 6S. Are you gonna make a video about the new trend of 5” motor 2505/06?
I'd love to see the comparison to those new motors too!
Here are the future results…FPV Cycle Imperials 1870KV beats everything else but draws most current 😂.
@@cheechfpv I really like to support Kabab with the imperials but I don't really like they're not one piece bell
This. I want to see those almost mythical Imperials graphed up!
Chris is kicking butt and taking names with content like this! One question- would the last topic of the vid remain as true if using Motor Output Limit instead of Throttle Limit?
Throttle limit doesn't prevent the PID controller applying full power to the motor. Output limit prevents PID controller applying full power. Output limit is the right setting for 4S motors on 6S. 👍
Another great video, thanks mate. My only question is are you able to test torque under more dynamic conditions? For example with your ramp tests the motor/prop combination is sitting on the test bench but that only simulates take off or quick pops of the throttle, but not recovering from a big dive were the torque requirements would be far higher? Anyway, love your work 👍
The responsiveness testing is the true measure of max torque I think. There the motor has to accelerate as fast as possible.
I hoped so much for the release video of the 5" UL frame today. Hopefully we will see this in the next videos
It's on its way!
Awesome content Chris. I always felt like 2306’s were less powerful and you have confirmed it. They just make less thrust compared to a 2207. I’m recently a new convert back to 2207 2050kv from 2307 1950kv and I honestly don’t know why I went up to 2307. The 2207 flight characteristics is everything and more that I prefer.
where did buy a 2307 motor ? ive been chasing 2308 motors for my 6 inch rigs or years after the only ones i available stopped being made? wha are those 2307 and are they still available ?
@@fistedfpv2922 tmotor velox v2 rose gold 2307 1950kv
Thankyou for the tests.
Real data and real science. Well done Chris!
Super!!!!!
I’m so glad you did this testing!!!!
Thank you sooo much for all your contributions to our hobby !!!!
I have the GepRC Mark 4 HD DJI V2 vista nebula pro.
The quad copter comes with 2306.5 motors.
After watching your video I’m thinking I would rather have 2207’s.
Basically what I got from this video is that.
What do you think if you were going to build this frame from scratch you would put 2207’s on it?
I probably would but I wouldn't throw away perfectly good 2306.5 motors as the difference will be very small.
@@ChrisRosser of course not.
I have another five inch which is on 2207. I could just tell the difference when I flew the 2306.5 I feel like it would put me where I want on feel. Feel is very important to me so that I am comfortable while flying.
Thank you so much for responding 👏 your the best 🙏🏻
@@ChrisRosser It’s also a lot of work for a small change I know that. I really didn’t relish the idea of removing four perfectly good 2306’s to put 2207’s on but I may do it in the end.
Something small like this just gives me that edge feeling. You know that feeling where you think you’re invincible and you can do anything ? That feeling is very important to me. When I’m flying I like to feel like I have the edge. For some reason it gives me so much more confidence.
Very very useful information for all pilots
Glad it was helpful!
Absolutely love this video!!! Awesome content!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Sick testing my dude. From what ive seen, 2306 weighs a little less than 2207, which furthers the efficiency gain at 2306.
thanks for the tests!
You leave no room for controversy. You are calculated and educated. I go to your channel when I want the truth. Thank you.
You're welcome :D
Right to the Point with Data!!! I change from 2207 to 2306 from your last video about 5” motors, 2306 motor is my throttle cap from 2207 lol
Absolutely, nothing wrong with that especiallyas they are a little lighter.
Very informative. Thanks
I had a feeling we weren't getting something for nothing by running higher KV with a limit. It might still make sense to do it when transitioning to 6s from a lower voltage just so you don't have to buy all new motors, but it's good to know what the facts are.
Love this. Thanks for posting!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Very interesting, great video and presentation!
Question about the KV 'adjustment' using throttle limit:
I feel the most likely reason someone would run 6s on 4s motors with a throttle limit would be to try out the voltage sag and efficiency benefits of 6s without having to buy a new set of motors.
Did you also test those parameters with the same KV motor (2400KV) just using two different batteries (4s vs 6s)?
Cheers
Im running 4S on 6S because im poor AF.
TLDR just ordered 2207 for my new 6S build.
Your work is just incredible!
Great video.Thx Chris
Nice content as usual, thanks!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I did so much research before choosing 2207 1855kv, and nearly swapped due to hype… Thank you!
very useful video thanks for recording :)
Well done Chris. For years my mind has been telling me this but everyone said I was wrong. The 2207 eco rips the 2306. It's visible both Los and fpv.
Thank you Chris, many of us knew those facts and you proved all of that. 👍
Well explained thank you
Is there a measurable difference between horizontal and vertical thrust? I noticed that the 2306 is lighter.
Finally these myths about the differences between 2306 and 2207 on which marketing strategies are based have been busted, thanks Chris, you have publicly demonstrated that the difference all boils down to the difference in stator volume.
Anyone interested in the world of FPV should watch this video🙏
Yeah the marketing hype is real with 2306 vs 2207!
Sees title, grabs popcorn before reading comments.
Thank You Chris For Another Great Video! How much did weight account for efficiency for the 2306?
That could be the only way a 2306 could achieve longer flight times is if it weighed less 👍
The 2306 is only 9.2 grams/set lighter than than the 2207......So on a 600g 5" .....9.2g/600gx100 = 1.53% lighter........that's the difference of a short/long 12ga battery lead......or different battery mfg of the "same" mah capacity;-)
thanks for the great information
Any time, glad you enjoyed it!
Well you answered that question about running 4s motors on 6s battery I have I bunch of 4s motors I wanted to use but I guess I could use them if Im waiting on a set of 6s motors or something thanks
Fantastic testing, Chris! Really interesting results, thanks! 😃
I just subscribed!!!
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
BTW, I remember some people complaining about the quad "looking down" (for a lack of a better expression 😬) when you give zero throttle after a full throttle punch... But I believe it's a turning issue. Right?
Yep. It's called throbbles. Tends to be caused by weight being off centre.
@@ChrisRosser Oh, great to know! Thanks! 😊
Well done! Thank You
Thanks for watching!
Conclusions from there should be written in bold above every motor comparison article. Already had idea that main difference between 2306 and 2207/2208 is caused by KV difference and particularly due to lower KV for 2306 motors in historical comparisons. 4S motors being less efficient on 6S is nothing new. But because we are killing remains of our old 4S stock on 6S because no one want to buy them anymore and some of us think that throwing out working motors is bad idea, make it non-issue. Can you advance topic about throttle lowering for long range setups more? I see that it would be great way how to make all-rounder quad: flying freestyle on full throttle then switching to lower throttle profile for casual long range.
This actually made me think what to do now with 2306 in my shelf...
interesting results, i wonder if the load/unload aspect of bench testing has any bearing on the outcomes, i'm still running xing e 2207 2750 kv,s , i dont do any wild thrashing freestyle so the voltage drop isnt a hufe issue for me, but i would like to see some tests of a 6s pack on the 2750kv's, running auw 690g.
Wow yesterday I was thinking about suggesting you making a video about 2400kv with motor output limit vs 1700kv at 6s battery voltage as you have the motor test bench.. this is really stumping.
Glad this video hit the spot for you!
Great video. For efficiency, would it be fair to also factor in the weight the motors introduce?
I think it would be fair to factor that in but the way it was told to me it was the sape of the 2306 that supposedly made it more efficient not the fact that it was lighter. Also if its just weight a lighter 2207 would also be more efficient.
Hey, can you make a video to explain how Motor output Limit works. I'm not sure how ESCs work and if it Limits the output voltage to a motor or the amps. And I'd like to know if it might still have the advantage not having that much voltage sag running a 4S motor in 6s with MOL
Motor output limit just limits the max signal to the ESC which limits the max motor current. Running 4S motor on 6S is going to be 10% less efficient regardless of voltage sag.
What an amazing piece of work this video is. Thank you!
So there is reslly no benefit to picking 2306 then
What prop do you use? In my flying test I switch between F40 and F60 on my quad. I really saw difference and really enjoy 2304 motor with gemfan 5552 props on a ~650g quad. The feeling when turning st low speed in circle around trees was great. According to your test, This mean in blind test it would be really hard to see difference ?!
Good job man, this stuff was just a total mess and now we have it all nicely documented. Much less people will get confused by the numbers now.
I just had real live test but it was somewhat a little different. I put another brand new 2207 in the mix with 3 old 2207. The new motor is emax eco ii 1900kv mixed with RCINPower 2207 1860kv. It was weird that it still flies but I noticed it there was some performance loss. I noticed it every time I punch the throttle. I was expecting it won't change since it's a single 1900kv only. Any ideas? It was actually my latest video upload.
I like what you said about "if you want more torque, check out throttle expo". I think that's what you said. Do we just increase it by few decimals?
Amazing myth busting video!
Really nice myth busting ! And shootout to unmanned tech too, they are a really cool company !
Would running bluejay at different pwm frequencies change the delta of running 4s kv on 6s voltage for efficiency at thrust? Like say 24 vs 48 or 96
When using motor_output limit in betaflight does it reduce the output in the PID loop also or is it more like a throttle cut? You do a fast roll on a motor that is cut to 70% does it actually stop the roll at 70%?
With output limit at 70% the motor can only ever get to 70% no matter what. With throttle limit the PID controller can still drive the motor to 100% in sharp moves.
In my experience, if you put a 2207 on a bad frame, it can deliver less power than a shorter motor due a higher motor producing more motor wobble due to its higher leverage on twisting the arm. This is perhaps where some of these myths come from.
I think that maybe efficiency can only be tested in flight, not on the bench. Heavier flywheel effect motors can be more efficient due to the flywheel effect, this is maybe something that can't be tested on the bench.... Like flywheels in normal car clutches are heavier than racing flywheels for the very reason of efficiency.
But if they have the same breaking then that counteract any flywheel... The esc setting would do more for this?
@@ugpfpv361 I d'know, only a theory I heard... The breaking level of the ESC does depend on quite a few factors... And I think, in BF 4.3 we're getting some freewheel effect on reductions of throttle, not sure if that's global or a feature you turn on or off.
Do you have any ballpark estimates as to what the sample variance would be if you tested a batch of motors? For instance, actual-versus-advertised KV can vary not insubstantially from sample to sample.
My understanding is that stated Vs actual KV can vary a bit (up to 50KV or so).
For the last test, did you confirm the kV ratings of the motors? They are often not accurate.
Could try running both on your test stand and use the tachometer setting to find the right throttle limit, where both motors turn the same RPM at full throttle.
It's a good point that I didn't experimentally confirm the KV. However, I don't think most pilots who run 4S motors on 6S voltage experimentally confirm their KV to set their throttle limit either, so it's still a representative test 😁 Regardless of the throttle limit(which will affect the max top end) the efficiency penalty seems to be there across the whole throttle range.
@@ChrisRosser Thanks! Very interesting. I suppose if they are running the exact same prop (like physically move it from motor to motor) then the thrust produced tracks with RPM anyways.
I’m curious how 65% and 75% throttle limits with the 2400kV would plot against the other two.
Very interesting video!
I still have some good old 5" 2204 motors running.
Maybe it would be a interesting video to compare how much the size effects flight performance since right now the motors get bigger and heavier. I am saving almost 80g compared to some of the recent 2505 motors or similar. But how much performance am I getting ? At some point bigger motors cannot be beneficial anymore on 5". Am I right?
Yep. I'm going to be looking at some bigger 5" motors soon!
@@ChrisRosser and some smaller for comparison would be cool :) I want to know if I need to upgrade my old, but perfectly fine 2204 on about 450g AUW. What do you think?
This is a good test for showing us how they work in a controlled environment...however...we do not fly drones in controlled environments...also would like to see the done a gain but with larger stator difference 2207 vs 2507 for instance
Thanx Chris! What I wonder is where motor volume becomes irrelevant, at what point in prop vs motor volume is the motor big enough to be limited by KV and prop.
Good question, I feel that 25mm might be too big for 5" but I should test it!
I’ve tested the cheap Racerstar 2508 2522KV and they felt ok in the air, maybe the rpm’s felt like not being that much affected by the props. That 5" felt good in heavy wind, pretty locked in, but not having the top end power It felt like it should have. I guess that is an indicator for bigger stator volume than needed for what the KV demanded. The JB 2407 2500KV felt like it had more top end power, and a bit more… «connected to the prop». Maybe 3000mm3 is a robust target for a steep 5-5.2" prop 🙂
😂 finally, someone did the proof of these "feeled" claims. since the beginning of having brushless motors we made stator volume decisions. (except pancakes with different pole numbers). then came the fpv scene and brought a bunch of useless motor variants to the table. some of the stator combinations are just a trend.
Marketing is a powerful force indeed!
I love how you scientifically break motors down at the end of the day.. a motor is a motor is a motor.. i was going to swap my motors on my BNF Nazgul Evoque F5x V2 because i thought 2306 would work better than the stock xing2 2207 1750kv for freestyle and just overall make my quad fly better if i got some expensive 2306 1750kv's maybe even the same ratings as the stock ones on the Nazgul just more expensive (eye candy ones) as i thought they would perform better but after seeing a load of your videos and a few others I have come to the conclusion that... A motor is a motor is a motor... I'm better off just sticking with the ones that iflight chose to put on the drone they made as it will have probably been made around them motors anyway so i probably wont find any better performing ones for it anyway lol.
Anyway great video's keep them coming my friend!👌👍
Do one for the bigger 5 inch motors. This was good.
Nice topic, would be great if you included the testing video and explain your method at that video
The testing approach is the same used in a lot of my ESC comparison videos. I'll adda bit more detail next time.
I've been flying rcinpower 2107+ 1980k for maybe a month after flying 2405 for a while then the fpvcycle imperials for a bit then some 2207s. At first I didn't know about 2107 it seemed weird to me (so is 2405 but I like weird shit who cares) but man oh man I have been loving them so much they are super responsive and I still get my same old 3-4 min flights I was getting on any the other motors I flew before and they seem pretty durable. I wouldn't mind seeing you test some of these strange size motors like mine, the 2505 t motors, maybe fpvcycle and any other odd ball 5-5.5 Inch motors we can find I'd love a video like that
Which Propeller did you use on these Tests?
HQ 5*4.5*3 👍
Science n facts 👍. Great video.
Hey Chris!
Can you run some tests on 6S vs 4S Batteries with two motors spinning at the same RPM, and a 4S and 6S battery of the same Watt Hours.
(I don't have the gear to do it accurately, but I have a 6S motor and it's equivalent 4S to produce same RPM)
Nothing destroys a bad argument like good data.
Ohh mate, thanks for such important infos.
Great vid
Is it possible to get the script for testing the motor responsiveness for the rc1585 ? Thank you
Sure, drop me an email.
Hiya,
I know I'm a year late but can you please explain how you measure motor torque at each RPM level?
Thanks!
Interesting video
I would be curious to see at what motor output % in betaflight does the 4s motor put out the same power as the 6s one. And the corresponding efficiency %.
If it was producing 10% less thrust. Would 77 or 78% motor limiting equalize the thrust, and what would the efficiency loss be at matched thrust?
The efficiency loss at equal thrust would be ~10% as it is across the whole thrust range.
Very informative video and I really appreciate that you kept it short! However your tests have a point of error, that is the actual kv of a motor is never exactly the same as the advertised (usually +-50kv). It's actually very hard to accurately set the kv of a motor. For example I bet the 2207 and 2306 had some kv difference even though both are advertised as 1700kv. The same thing for the 2400kv. It would have been more complete if you measured the actual kv values
Great point! I'll have to figure out a way to do that for my future tests.
Please make a video on PID and Filters tuning using real quad... followed all the steps u said in tuning playlists but not able to bring the step resp tool graph proper
Awesome video! Someone please help just finished my first build and everything checked out good powered on and bound my DJI goggles and receiver and activated it. I flashed bf4.3 and did some setup. Then I plugged in the quad and the air unit is not powering on. It’s weird too when I’m connected to beta flight it show voltage with no battery plugged in. I’m super new and now very discouraged.
apex 5” 6s
Lumenier LUX HD AIO F7 FC + 50A BLHeli_32 2-6S ESC with capacitor
DJI air unit direct plugged.
Sorry to bother you guys. Just don’t know what to do.
When Chris talks science and facts..you listen, simple
A set of 2306s (in your example) weighs nearly 10g less though. Not sure if that is accounted for.
Absolutely right. If you don't need the extra power of the 2207s saving the weight is really worth it. We should never carry more motor than we need it's just wasted!
What does motor output limit exactly do? Limit the rpm or limit the amount of watt by a certain percentage?
It limits the PWM signal to a certain percent, it is not the same as limitting how much watt it consumes as that also depends on the prop. If comparing with the same prop with and without motor limit you will see watt reduction.
@@dimitarkrastev6085 Thanks, sounds logical
I'd say that I've felt a difference between the two types of motors for sure, but then again they were totally different brands also
Just something to throw at this? The additional outboard weight on the 2306 vs the 2207, would it not act like more of a flywheel in flight, static bench tests don't account for airflow at speed. Every myth is just some misunderstood science, so the tale of 2306 feeling more torque could be right but just not scientifically proved yet. Lets say quad is descending and you are at say 20% throttle. The resistance of the prop on the air pushing back up from the descent would want to slow down the prop/motor. Would said 2306 not slightly keep the prop at better momentum compared to the 2207 that would need to apply a bit more power to keep the prop spinning at given speed? Or is that cancelled out ultimately by the increase in response of the 2207, or is that the reason why the 2207 is more responsive? This could also be where the tale of efficiency comes from? The heavier fly wheel effect takes less effort to keep spinning at same speed (Cruising). Kabab FPV even went as far as developing pancake style motors, which in practice have proven to be more effective on whoop style flyers which all have 1 thing in common, they tend to cruise at set throttles a lot.
The flywheel effect you speak of would not decrease the power to spin the motor at a certain RPM. We can see this from the torque vs RPM curve and also the thrust vs power curves. A motor with more MOI will take more power to accelerate/deccelerate. In my opinion this 2306 being more efficient myth comes from the fact that it is a smaller, less powerful motor so it draws fewer amps. What people didn't realise is that it also makes less thrust so it is not more efficient, just weaker.
@@ChrisRosser brilliant. Thanks for the great perspective 👍🏼
Chris Rosser is our Dr.Fpv. Hey Chris next time please wear a white coat, this will just make you legendary 💯😁
I think the graph for the first myth actually proves it true. For a given thrust (a horizontal line through both curves) the 2306 motor will always have a higher throttle value than a 2207 (i.e. 2 vertical lines down from where the thrust line intersects the curves). Therefore I have to push my throttle stick much further with a 2306 motor to get the same thrust. This equates to better resolution across the entire output range (not just the low end). But freestylers (who often make this claim) don't care about fine movements at the high end of the throttle, they care more about responsiveness at the high end which a 2207 has more of across the range. So at the low end 2306 has better control but at the top end it is less responsive so it feels like a 2207 has more control.
Absolutely right. But you can achieve the same effect by running a throttle limit, or running a 4S motor on 3S. I don't think you can claim more low throttle control just by reducing the max thrust. Throttle expo gives more resolution at the low end without losing top end.
Can I run 1404 iflight motors in a 5”?
What about motor_output_limit? It is not the same thing as throttle_limit.