The DARK SIDE of Electronic Shifting No One Talks About
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Why I won't ever switch to electronic shifting.
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Im a shop mechanic and I admit modern electronic shifting works amazing.
But I don’t think it’s worth the money for me.
I, like most of you, like to tinker and mix and match, and that is impossible with electronic shifting.
I also don’t want to charge my bike. I have to many device to stay on top of.
I’m an ex shop mechanic and I agree. The mix and match though is more flexible with electronic inside the brand. Want a climbing shifter on your mtb, sure, want a MTB derailleur on your gravel bike sure. Want buttons to control your bike computer sure.
One of my favorite parts of electronic shifting is that I don't have to tinker. Set and forget. I keep a spare battery in my flat kit and I'm good to go.
@@Alex-ce2xcspare batteries are a bad idea, no cycle at all is oftentimes worse than moderate usage.
Mixing and matching isn’t at all impossible and neither is tinkering. Just say electronics are outside your realm and leave it at that. There are people making custom di2 batteries, chargers, shifters, and doing diy mix and match groups. I don’t mean to sound rude but you’re speaking objectively about a subjective experience
@@mstrshkbrnnn1999 yeah you’re right! I can set up electronic shifting perfectly to factory spec but I don’t have the electrical knowledge to tinker with it.
For my skills I can tinker with mechanical which is why I prefer it.
Thanks for sharing perspective!
Wow, I'm shocked how much hate for electronic shifting there is. I converted to Di2 a few years ago, and I'm never going back to mechanical. Never need to adjust. Never. Fear of running out of battery is a ridiculous argument. ONly have to recharge every 6 months. It's not hard to check the battery level from time to time. I have never, ever had a flat battery, but back in the old days, I have broken a gear cable. Many times, and it ruins a ride when you can't change. Very hard to predict a broken cable, but very easy to look at a battery gauge.
Glad it works for your particular situation/needs/etc.
I have gone on several rides with friends that have electronic shifting where the shifter fails because the battery wasn’t charged or they forgot to charge it. As someone that uses video cameras for a living, I don’t need one more rechargeable battery in my life. I always enjoy your videos Russ. Best wishes
We all have to charge or replace batteries but one more is just to tough.
You are totally right. Industry wants to divorce you from anything not dictated by them. The tragedy is that it got all the way down to bicycles. Bottom of the barrel on disappointment.
Yup, it’s a right to repair issue to me. Also waiting on a “Do weird stuff on bikes” sticker or patch.
I have been on several group rides where someones electronic shifting dies mid-ride ("but the performance is so much better" they say as they are limping home stuck in one gear, totally missing the irony). Life is saturated with enough electronics, most of which are positives Riding my bike is a chance to get away from all of that and just breathe hard.
Well said!
indeed, cycling doesn't need all this pollution, obstacles and gimmicks
I'm glad I can cycle biggest gear for miles but I do leave traffic lights in 53x11 gear all the time and it is mechanical, I only shift to smaller when did London to Brighton
To be fair, the kind of guy who would head out on a ride without knowing the state of the battery in his electronic shifter, and who doesn't carry a spare, is probably the same kind of guy who doesn't bother to carry a multitool, spare tube, and pump, either.
@@Durwood71 You might be on to something. I wasn't on this particular ride, but one of the same guys called an Uber when his tubeless tire blew.
I am a bar end friction shifting kind of guy. I am also a mechanical brakes guy…..including rim brakes (which I prefer, truth be told). Flexibility….ease of service and maintenance…are the biggest reasons. I am a retired engineer, I do admire technology, but for my bicycles I love simplicity and the freedom to do what I want to do with my bicycle and it’s components. Another good video…thanks!
I am with you...mechanical brakes/gears....rim brakes.... I prefer the old school ways, simplicity, economy, no gimmicks.
I loved Rim brakes but here in the wet UK they don't work so well. The worse part is how they eat through rims. I used to need new rims each year mountain biking. In time I learned how to make discs work. Things like blow torch and sandpaper and silicone grease. Bleed kits from China work well. Through axels keep them from rubbing when fix a puncture. Through axels are good too, I notice the extra stiffness. For a summer bike or road bike V brakes are great. I never tried friction shift, started biking in the 90s! But I like the sound of it! I find SRAM 1:1 9 speed with a 10 speed shimano rear mech works well. Just do not need to adjust it. SRAM 1:1 is generally pretty reliable.
Rim brakes for me are the top.
Dang Russ, 10 years ago I would have disagreed with you, but I have to say these days I am 100% on board with your way of thinking. Frames from Crust and Sklar with simple builds seem to be the things I dream of now. Glad you are around and sharing your thoughts!
I totally agree with you also Russ. Simplicity is advancement in cycling - too many gimmicks nowadays. Take the humble steel frame it is making a come back with advanced designing. I had a Cannondale super six Ultegra with electronic shifting but I'll take my Cannondale Synapse with Shimano105 that has been uber reliable over the electronic Ultegra.
My thinging same feeling.
Electro depends like Composite to Performance. But I need and love my bikes for more reasons than performance. Robustness. Independence.
Fire and ice and dust in the whole and complete way of life of the metal. Which hase to be born from the earth and which will be giffen back to the earth.
I'm actually in the process of selling my Di2 stuff for a lot of the reasons he elaborates on in the video.
I will take it one step further and say you just need a frame that fits, not a frame with a pink palm tree on it.
I love that you drank the punch.
Crust and sklar are just fuji or any other big bike brand building in Asia. They have you hoodwinked into thinking they something different. Heck big brands at least build you stock bikes for a handful bucks more.
No name tubes welded shouldn't cost that much.
It destroys the elegant simplicity of the mechanical bicycle.
Some might say the same thing about the leap from velocipede to chain-and-pedal drivetrains.
Don't get me wrong, I'm with you 100%. But there's a part of me that thinks there might be an implementation that we aren't considering right now that could make things amazingly simple in the future in the same way the digital camera revolutionized not necessarily photography but how we document important moments in history.
I'm keeping an open mind and some downtube shifters.
@@benda18 I would argue the velocipede was too simple. There's a reason we're watching a video about bicycles and not Razor scooters.
Electronic shifting is significantly simpler than mechanical shifting.
@@livibam until something breaks.
@@livibamNo, it is not.
I am 100% with you. I don't want some bike component software company to ever be able to tell me to throw away some bike stuff because,"it is not supported anymore" not after 2, 5, 20 or 40 years... I run a 1981 Huret Jubilee front with aTA triple and a 2002 Campagnolo 10 speed rear and nobody is going to tell I can't or "switch it off" for me...
My weird reason for sticking by mechanical is I get a certain amount of satisfaction from getting cable actuated components dialed. Derailleurs can take some finesse to get them to shift quickly and precisely and if I can get them there, I feel pretty darn good.
I've had a 105 derailleur since 2017. Something happened at a bike shop where they went whacky. I got them fixed (this was 2019) and they've been aces since, not a single issue with them. They still feel smooth as new.
a bit like driving a car with manual gears/transmission as opposed to automatic I guess.
@@ZaydDepaor Every car I have ever owned has been a manual. You DRIVE a manual you just come along for the ride in an automatic........
@@ZaydDepaor Maybe in the past, but today's auto transmission is far superior to manual
@@stevenmeyer9674there is no grey or middle ground with an automatic and you are assuming that the engineer specified certain variables that are perfect for every situation. One of the best cases going for yourself and automatics is that they are the majority in some places and are being developed further and further. The minority that love manual are stuck with no more evolution and development at least by mainstream car makers. But the biggest loss in an automatic is that one hand is free to pick your nose and one foot is free to lie on the floor bored as hell. All of my limbs are in use with manual just as when I ride my bicycle.
Totally agree! If it’s not cable/bsa/27.2 I don’t want it. I don’t want hydro. I don’t want a battery. I don’t want integrated everything. Pass
wisdom❤
100% agree. Many thanks for yor inspiration.
After working IT/computers since 1983, the simplicity of mechanical soothes my soul. (Yes, even brakes)
And mechanical has given me freedom in components choices. As I've upgraded/updated my 2009 hardtail XC, I've introduced components to address specific problem that I have on the trails that i ride, at my skill level at the time. Ending with a transmission that is a blend of 9,10,11 speed SRAM & Shimano components. And it all works together well because the specs can be known, and paired within tolerances.
And yeah, your janky 2x gearing inspired me to similar 2x9: 28-36 chainrings, 11-46 cassette. Shimano XT 11spd as rear dif interacts with the SRAM 9spd shifters (pull ratio of both is almost the same)
I typically use the 28t chainring as a 1x for mtb single track. And the 36t for gravel double tracked when the single tracks are closed by mud.
Coder here. I also use 1:1 SRAM 9 speed shifter with a 10 speed shimano rear mech on my old 90s mtb.. 2x is my fav. I use a 22-36, 11-36 cassette. So similar overall range, achieved in a different way. My front mech works well with no crossover (I find I don't need it) and I get smaller steps between the gears. Most of the time I am in the 36 with no need to shift down except for big hills!
On board, 100%. As someone who's spent most of my adult life in one tech industry or another, I have always been attracted to the simplicity of bicycles. One of the last things I need on a bike is to think about firmware upgrades or the possibility of having to bring my damn volt-meter with me on a ride to troubleshoot my dang shifting problems. Nice Rant!!!
Ditto! I don't even like proprietary crap with computers, the last place I want it is on my bike!
@@gregpommen5630 Open source, baby.
Same here. Software Dev is my day job. Don't need to deal with that on a bike. I love fresh cable outers, smooth bearings, cables, even hydraulic stuff. Some soft of refuge from the daily digital overload.
@@pascaladl I'm considering becoming a luddite when I retire. Except, of course, for this YT channel.
Well said. Complexity costs more and needs more maintenance to be reliable. Specialised tools needed for servicing mean those costs are much higher too. I think the bike makers are going down the same road as the auto industry.
I'm a big mechanical rim brake kinda guy... we have a rental centre in Spain, mostly Di2 bikes. Honestly, you would not believe the number of STI levers we have replaced in the past two years. The second these kiss the asphalt the top of the lever brakes off and then the levers are kaput. I believe they are designed to brake. It means we have to charge our customers for any damage to the lever. It's real bummer for them and for us.
My old 3x7 with trigger shifters just keeps working. Not costing me anything. I'm happy. 😊 Changing now would make me feel like a shifty guy. See what I did there?😅
All the best.
Well expressed. 100% agree.
My new MTB came with GX Transmission, there's no arguing the performance of the new stuff but I yanked it off and sold it to replace with mechanical Eagle 12x. For me it came down to a couple thigns:
1. I just prefer the feel of mechanical, its much more tactile and i like the reassuring feedback of a nice mechanical shifter.
2. I was super annoyed by the lack of compatibility with existing systems that are even just a couple years old. Keeping the new stuff means I can't have just 1 spare (chain for example) that will fit all my bikes. Or for part swapping - If feel so inclined i can swap a cassette, chainring or cranks no problem. Not so with the new stuff.
3. Who can honestly say that a dialed GX/X01/XX1 mechanical shifts "bad"?!? Seriously, even if you take away all the new electronic stuff regular 12x (from either team) is worlds ahead of stuff that came before it.
I run a mix of 11sp mechanical and Di2 on my bikes. All my chains and many of the small parts are interchangeable. I have a bigger issue with the lack of durability and and longevity of 12sp systems than I do running Di2.
I agree. Absolutely love my X01.
It's cool that you can put additional shift buttons and have the front shift automatically to avoid cross-chaining, however I really find it essential to have the feeling through my hand of what my bike is doing as it shifts gears. My experience with electronic shifting felt like drawing in a computer program vs. drawing on paper where you can feel how the pencil reacts to the paper and your pressure and you can sense the input through the pencil.
I would consider trying out drawing on Procreate on iPad. It is not the same feeling, but just the feeling that you don't have to repaint stuff as much and be as precise gives you confidence to experiment and have fun drawing.
But you're 100 % right, it's a great comparison.
Electronic shifting is very good, brilliant in fact, I've used it for years now, but it's a bit ugly, a bit heavier, and takes away some of the simple joys, and currently I'm heading back to mechanical with a 12 speed ratio kit and some Paul's Klampers. My reasoning is many of the reasons you've said, i want to get off the bus before a new update comes that if i don't get I'll feel like I'm missing out. Plus reading one of Jan's articles in BQ about his Nivex rest mech, this sentence really hit home. "When I ride my bike, I enjoy feeling the shift happen. I pull the lever and feel the chain mesh with the new cog as a result of my hand movement. It doesn’t make me faster, but it makes riding more fun."
Another issue is having to charge the batteries-I just watched a mountain bike video where these guys set out on an epic ride, and a few miles in, one guy’s derailleur battery died. I don’t want to deal with that!!
And where is the fault of the battery? It's the fault of the person who doesn't charge it properly...
My Archer DX1 electronic shifter gave new life to my Alfine internal hub on a mountain bike, especially with the arthritis in my thumb. I love it and I heard about it from you! Otherwise I love bar end shifters and friction.
Another really important point for electronic. Usable by folks with more constraints.
I would like to learn more about that system for sure. Are you happy with it?
@@cynic777 Yes very happy with it for my specific needs. Do you want to know about it working with internal hubs specifically, or just in general?
In general…I want electronic but I don’t want lock in to a particular ecosystem it sounds like archer can allow that freedom to experiment
@@cynic777 They are doing a holiday sale right now. I love it because with the app you can adjust the cable pull by .25 mm steps - in my case the Alfine cable pull is not linear per gear so when you shift it pulls different amounts for different gear shifts. I was able to calculate it based of a cable pull chart from Sheldon Brown.
Love your philosophical videos, Russ. I agree 100%. While friends fawn over the new technology and are "updating" their bikes, I am super happy with my decision to stay 2x with friction.
Recently on Strava I've witnessed multiple people in the cold have their little batteries die on them with their rides turning into single speed efforts at the end. My knees say no thank you to that.
The fact that my bike is all powered by ME, reminds me of the freedom I felt as a kid being able to go fast, far, and explore all on my own.
If I need gears at all, I always choose friction shifting. You are so right with "open protocol", don't be enslaved in an eco-system.
Everything you said is true. Simplicity rules. I'm building my dream all terrain bike at the moment and I'm going to give a bar end friction shifter a go. If it works out then your UNO shifter will be on my hit list. I would love to go with the vélo orange equal pull cable operated disc callipers but they have recently jumped to astronomical prices so it's mtb hydro brakes for me on the surly corner bars. Last year while on the other side of the Pyrenees in the French part of Catalunya I converted my wife's bike to hydraulic with just a multitool - no problems though sourcing the mineral oil was not anywhere as easy as picking up brake cables. I hope you both are enjoying Girona - will be there again next Spring.
Your point about firmware is a good one and I hadn't thought of that. For me, the issue is making sure the batteries are charged. It's enough hassle just making sure the blinky red tail light is charged. And I've wondered, what does a rider do when their shifter battery dies in the middle of a ride?
You make an interesting point about adding additional gears via firmware. It's perfectly valid and in theory, it should also work backwards, an 11sp electronic should also work with 10sp/9sp/etc with the proper programming. I fully agree with your points about the repairability of bicycles, and it's something i mention to my customers all the time with touring. For touring 9 speed gear ratios just win across the board, you can go to any decent bicycle shop and find a compatible part if needed, you have the freedom to build a bicycle anyway you like with any shifter.
I've been having trouble finding 9 speed chainrings for triples. RIP
@@benda18 Platos de 7, 8, 9 y 10 velocidades trabajan bien con cadenas de 9.
It does. There exists an electronic derailleur which supports 7-12 speeds actually.
i JUST bought my dream bike and picked every component. I heavily considered going electronic, but ultimately chose mechanical pull and im SO glad I did. And I totally agree about how terrible compatibility is. Its infuriating
Russ,
One of the many things I love about cycling is that it meets us where we are. I am an old duffer who has several bikes one of which has electronic shifting. I purchased this bike during the pandemic and had ordered it with the mechanical GRX 2x groupset. When the bike came I have been upgraded to the electronic groupset probably because parts were scarce and they only had the electronic one in stock. I was skeptical at first but decided to go with the flow and try it. I absolutely love it. Being older I have less strength in my hands than i used to. Shifting takes no effort what so ever, battery issues have not been a problem, and in short the system works flawlessly. Would I choose this bike for a cross country bikepacking trip? No, but honestly for me electronic shifting is easier on my hands and consequently on my overall endurance. I don’t advocate for electronic shifting for everyone as we are all differ, for many however electronic shifting will enable greater control, endurance and access to cycling. In closing I will also dispense one piece of unsolicited advice, never say never, it will always bite you in the butt.
Very few cycling videos use the word 'ontological'! A thoughtful, well-reasoned presentation. As you admit it is an exercise in selective technology buy in. I absolutely shudder at the thought of being locked in to the Apple prison but happily embrace my SRAM Rival AXS world. E-shifting is one of the luxuries none of us needed but after a year of enjoying instant, precise shifting with a light thumb tap, I'm never going back.
Reliability: My son in law who rides professionally has 3 bikes so equipped and used e-shifting on the Tour Divide as did about half the riders. Abe Kauffman who just win major gravel rides in GA and AR uses the same.
Battery charging: The battery lasts surprisingly long and the remedy to battery depletion is quite simple...carry a spare!
I use my 33 year old steel bike for trips to the grocery store and enjoyable exercise. After careful consideration, I have decided to stay with my click shifters.
Totally agree. As you point out the charging aspect is a nuisance, but what really turned me off was that if your battery dies on a ride, there's no workaround.
It's a way of thinking about bikes not as functional transportation and utility but more like a fussy sports car where a firmware update could stop your ride. Appreciate the thoughts and insights!
Exactly my hesitation! That and I have many bikes that are analog and really arent interested in replacing just to have digital shifting ($2000+), plus they still shift great!!
True for Shimano but for axs you can just carry a spare. I've swapped a battery at a red light.
I ride with many people who use e-shifting and there are more issues with that system including dead batteries than the folks I ride with who have mech sifting. Neither is perfect but I think when e-shifting fails it's more likely to end a ride and happens more abruptly.
I find it easier to carry a spare tiny battery than spare shifter cable. I also don't consider it a tragedy if I have to single speed a ride. I agree no thing or system is for everyone. I don't notice any difference in enjoyment if I jump on a bike without "e" stuff.
Battery dies on a ride....
Oh c'mon. I have had the battery level onscreen my Edge 530 for months.
You would have to be a retard to watch it go to zero and end up with no system.
They claim 1000 kms between charges - more like 700-800 - for me that is once a month.
FFS, 99% of people charge their iPhone every night.
Funtional transportation and utility....
Yep, completely agree on that but the upgrade is not compulsory...ummm, except for me.
Serious arthritic problem (only in my left thumb)...I had to take my left hand off the drop bar and palm the left gear change.
And it still hurt - but was manageable.
Also at 82 my heart objects to 7%+ hills and the 12 speed 11-34 on a carbon frame made that difficult but manageable.
Now I have programmed the Di2 to change the front derailleur on the chain rings and the cassette on the rear derailleur using only the right shifter with a pressure not much greater than I would use on my iPhone.
Absolute game changer for me.
Having said that the di2 upgrade it ridiculously expensive - impossible to recommend for a current bike.
But I bought a new bike - discounted for this time of year (and other market reasons).
So upgraded to CF3 carbon road bike / 105 /Di2/ Disc brakes for around 350 AUD more than I would have paid for an aluminium bike with rim brakes 6 months ago.
At the end of the day it is really whatever floats your boat.
Forget the whingers - if it suits buy it - if it is too expensive wait for an opportunity.
The industry have screwed the pooch and there will be even better bargains in the near future because of severe over-stocking coinciding with a deteriorating economy.
No way I would have bought this bike last year.
But I am delighted with the purchase.
Disc brakes and Di2 and lighter frame - Woohoo - if it was not for that combination I would not be riding.
I went back and watched that fun HIPSTER stinger more times than I thought I would
I put sram electronic shifting on my bike because I built it myself and I've never been able to dial in my rear derailleur myself, I always had to take it to a bike shop. I don't need the bike shop anymore and I couldn't be happier with how well it works. I'll need several more years of no shop visits to pay for it but it works for me.
I said I would not go electronic and then did anyway with Sram Axs.. So far it's great. when I go back to mechanical bike I notice how the shifting is never even due to cable tension. Toward the end of the cable the shifts are lasy. Does a non pro need Axs? no but its really nice. especially when wearing gloves and much less hand/wrist fatigue. Same thing with hydro lowering hand/arm/wrist tension and fatigue.
Spot on. Locked into ecosystem is exactly the point here. I'll choose mech brakes, mix and match and lower ratios (without a dinner plate rear cassette) over electronic shifting until I hang up my bikes.
I don’t need electronic shifting and not buying it anytime soon…..but I still want to try it out. Got to admit, wireless shifting has got to be incredibly fun.
Good point about the "appification" of shifting. Cory Doctorow has written a lot about why Apps are super bad from basically the perspective you brought up. One main argument is that it is a felony to "customize" stuff yourself if something is in an app due to DMCA (iirc).
Really enjoyed listening, Russ! I’ve been tempted by E recently and you talked me off the ledge. All the love!
I am with you Russ, thank you for articulating these so well. Probably the biggest negative of e-shifting for me is my lack of knowledge and ability to work on it... like when cars went from distributors and rotors and distributor caps and carburetors to electronic ignition and fuel injection - too complex and computerized for me, no longer fun to maintain and tinker and requires expensive specialist tools. Bikes are headed the same way I think.
I agree with that comparison 100%. Rebuilding a carburator was one of my first car experiences... I loved that. When fuel injection came along, it was often just easier and simpler/faster to replace the system than sort out the problem. But that's the down side of technology, it serves to make life easier and in so doing makes itself obsolete. Plus... (i must add) People are damn lazy... most folks don't want to know how something works, they just want it to work and when it doesn't, they don't care to fix it, they'd often rather just replace it.
Nice video and some valid points. Thats why i have two bikes, one with electronic shifting for those group rides and second as a backup and will always be there without any tech limitations.
Well said! You always make well articulated and knowledgable points that stick with me and make me say “yup, he’s right”. Thanks for what you do and keep being true to the supple life.
I am checking on your channel for a while now. But this comment on the newest developments expresses my own opinion so well, it made me hit the follow button. Thx a lot.
You make perfect sense. I admire you for acknowledging electronic shifting may be perfect for others. Good luck in your new home. (I’m with Straggler, 1x drivetrain and friction thumbie on a Surly Sunrise bar.)
I agree completely, but I made the switch anyway and I really enjoy SRAM AXS on my road bike. The shifting is very consistent. When I did the upgrade, I stayed with 2x and appreciated what you had to say about 2x versus 1x in some of you other videos. Thank you for keeping it simple.
Hello Russ, yes the background is still bikeless but I see you alomst in winter with sun in the back and rolled up sleeves wich is nice. I think many people are here because they agree with what you say and I love my "older bikes" because of their versatility and simplicity. Great to have you here to hear the the other sight, beeing independent and being objective in a personal way.
Loved the parallel between cable pull and protocol, it's accurate AF. As an electronics engineer I'm predisposed to minimize the "things that can go wrong" list, so I'm staying with mechanical shifters and brakes, so easy to adjust and fix.
I agree with you in general. Though, I had a spring snap in the Shimano 105 ST-5800 shifter after about 5 years and 30 000 km of use. Turns out they are not very repairable and need to be replaced.
A lot of good points made in this video. I decided to give electronic a try using the Archer D1X which seems to avoid many of the issues you brought up, compatible with any derailleur and any number of speeds, and not paired to the brakes.
and seems my rear mech is a stick magnet so pretty nice not having so much money hanging below the bike.
Old man legs make me shift a lot to stay on top of the gear. Gone are the days of standing and muscling up that steep rise at the end of a long ride. Arthritic wrists and hands objected to constant shifting so I opted for Di2 for the road and TQ50 with mechanical shifting for the mountains. Sometimes the technolgy helps. But I still ride my 9-sp DA and my 3x9 XT Homegrown when I feel the need.
As always, well worth watching, Russ. Good luck in Spain.
I'm in the same boat.
I love 1x and hydraulic brakes. I’ve ridden bikes with e-shifting and was very impressed. But as a few others have said, I don’t want to have to charge my bike. With 1x it’s just a single cable/shifter. Not that difficult 🙂
... thank you for expressing this so clearly and well.!
Thank you for saying all this and making the video!! 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Glad to be a fixed gear retro grouch, always happier when I get to work on mechanical stuff vrs electric
Fixed gear, ah bless your knees of steel. Love the look of those bikes. The ultimate in bomb proof simplicity
I've toured on a fixed gear granny vintage bike, not as bad as some would think, then again i am used to it, i am a big fan of fixed gears, even living in Norway which is full of hills.
I totally agree with you! There is so much compatibility or non compatibility in the bike industry right now, and I've always felt that lots of these folks have simply forgotten why we all ride a bike to begin with. Of course there are many reasons why we all ride, but if we get down to the basic fact, the one that we realized when as an adult ... it's freedom. I' more than happy to update my bike, but I want to be able to use what "I" want to use...not what someone is telling me that I have to use. Anyway, this could easily be a very long winded rant, but as a shop owner and mechanic, the best thing that we can do is give people choices and forcing us into electronic appliances, bike drivetrains and cars is simply something that I am not interested in. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!!
I have to say that my friction reverse thumbies are simple and always work flawlessly. I swap my wheelsets, with different cassettes, and everything still works perfectly.
Hey Russ! Some good points here. But in regard to your first thing (brakes), I’d like to point out that electronic groupsets are not inseparable from hydraulic brakes. SRAM AXS, Shimano Di2 and Campagnolo EPS are all available with mechanical brakes.
Good point about the freedom. I balk at the price and batteries, but the partial freedom to mix and match will be my number one reason from now on.
going electronic is like buying into time-shares.
Nothing but total respect for you and your work, Russ. I feel totally the same way, and I find myself seeking out and hoarding steel cantilever brake bikes that take 38c+ tires so I am all set in the bike apocalypse. Thanks for another great video.
Any namebrands and/or models you want to share. I could use one
@@javiersmith2216 surly cross check, new Albion privateer, black mountain cycles Monstercross….I love them all!
Great video, Russ, thank you for your insights on this subject. My newest bike is a 2020 All City, Space Horse. It's very straight forward and simple. Depending on the market, and how much further they go in this direction, that may be the last bike I ever buy. I ride my bikes to enjoy them, and to get some exercise. If things get too complicated, I will gladly keep the bikes I now have and stay in the stone age. ( or the iron age, as all my bikes are made of steel.)
So agree about the problems of the lack of compatability of components!
On the other hand, one of the reasons that I prefer hydraulic disc brakes to cable brakes is that I find them easier to maintain: I've never had any problems with spongy brakes.
agree 100% hydro brakes and tubeless tire set up are the two things I just cant see ever giving up.
Hi Russ, I’m currently using 3x7 with Bar end shifters on my 1990’s winter Thorn tourer. I use it for the hills when I’m not riding / commuting on a fixed wheel. I have no desire to change either. Replaced the chain on both recently , about £10 each. ❤
Totally agree, Russ. I have a 2007 mtb, 8-speed/triple with index shifting. That's as much box as I want--& yeah, at times it is too much! I've tried newer model bikes, mtb & all-road, & hated the packaged product. When I wanted to change something, it was tricky or no go. I'm a minimalist techie anyway, & want my bike to be about freedom to ride, maintain, & play on.
Right on! Great rambling!
Excellent video Russ. Couldn't agree more. Working in a shop where the latest and greatest trendy bling is shoved down your throat and then expected to be regurgitated as a retail mechanism... it's really hard not to get a little skeptical. My favorite customers are those who a totally ignorant of any bling (a total newbie to bikes), or the ones who like simplicity, have been there and done that, and became a little skeptical like we have. Skeptical in a good way of course, especially when trying to justify the outrageous costs.
Interesting how you compared it to Apple because I had the same thoughts. Electronic shifting is like Apple MacOS - easy to use, quick to learn, efficient, but also completely closed and incompatible with most. On the other hand friction shifting is like Linux and OSS: harder to learn and master, but completely open and compatible with nearly everything.
This video helped me decide which bike I will ride tomorrow - My Soma Double Cross with down tube friction shifters, 1x9, mechanical disc brake.
Bro, your videos convinced me to try friction shifting and for me there is no going back! Currently rocking drop-bars with m5100 rear derailer and single chainring. Bar-end shifter doesn't bother me at all, its just like changing gears in car (here in EU we drive manual ;) If I ever consider 1x is not enough, I will just add another cheapest bar-end I can find, any FD (probably still have something in my parts bin) and another chainring. Simple, effective and cross-compatible. Also, so much cheaper than modern "gravel" drivetrains with insufficient gearing.
Absolutely bang on 👍. I completely agree with pretty much everything you've said. I use Shimano road components on the whole but not their chainsets and brakes. I have one bike with 11 speed but keep refurbishing 9 & 10 speed stuff for the others. I don't want to be a captive.
I must have missed the memo on the unhackability.. this year I was running Red AXS 12s with DA9000 rim brakes, Ultegra cassette and a YBN chain without any issues (ok, the FD was a bastard to get set up perfectly, but..)
You're so right about being able to update firmware to change the number of cogs on the rear derailleur though.. that needs to become a thing. Who's working on the AXS jailbreak??
Friction shifting, if the shifters are installed on your bars, is not very much different to indexed shifting. I can shift while standing in the pedals and I can even adjust the front derailleur if it rubs on the chain. One of my bikes has Shimano brifters but I cannot see much of an advantage with them. They are only more complicated. So I am totally with you Ross! 👍
You make very good points. I wasn’t feeling very inclined to get electronic shifting, and now I’m sure I won’t.
Make sure you don't go try it on a long ride... You might change your mind lol
I understand where you coming from but there are so so many combinations for electronic groupsets with rim brakes, specially if you are not afraid to mix and match
I hear you on the desire to work on your bike with simple tools. I moved to Germany 2 years ago and found myself in a bit of a rut navigating the completely new language, that's also NOT easy, and speaking clearly about what I have, or want done on a bike with tubeless and hydraulic brakes
I’ve got both and enjoy them for different reasons. I will say that having remote shift buttons and integration with my Wahoo is very nice and something I miss when I ride my mechanical bike.
Wait until someone buys Wahoo and you loose all that....
I’m with you. I’ve also used the ‘walled garden’ metaphor in writing about the Classified Powershift system. Yes, these products are really functional and deliver many benefits. But it’s important for riders to understand what they are getting into, if their expectation is ‘simple’ lifecycle management. It’s not even simple if you have $$ to throw at the bike after a few years and your first gen E-Tap or whatever is discontinued.
Personally I found the Powershift stuff to be hilarious... You can spend close to $1k just so you can replace what a $30 front derailleur used to do. Thanks, but I'll keep my FD!
I agree with you, mechanical is best overall. Although I have both mechanical and electronic shifting bikes. I do a few races and also fast training and group rides, where I prefer the responsiveness of DI2. For any other use, like travel bike, gravel and commuting (also in Winter), it´s 100% mechanical. My travel bike is a rim brake Break-Away steel with Ultegra mechanical. There are almost no issue I cannot fix just with a small toolkit and some spares. Love your channel!
Great video,so true, thanks.😊
I completely agree with what you are saying. I still use friction shifters on my bikes and all sorts of supposedly incompatible parts work very nicely together. I think bicycle manufacturers are actually shooting themselves in the foot with this. They make cycling or to be more precise using bicycles, more inaccesable and expensive and so less generally used overall.
Oh - I still use the old 26" and 700c disc brakes to.
I ve have a salsa cutthroat with GRX and XTR Di2, sonder Camino with dura ace/ ultegra cable, SWorks tarmac SL5 11 sp ultegra DI2 and a SWorks Crux with dura ace/ ultegra cable, does not matter which bike I ride, the feelings the same , how the gears change or at what speed does not detract from the feeling I get when riding, never has, never will,
I was on my pinion belt drive bike yesterday contemplating the new pinion electric shift & I thought " This already feels effortless & precise & a cable is going to be more reliable " I use hydraulic breaks because I find it a lot easier to get to the pads without the need to take the wheel off & on long bike rides I don't get cramp in my forearms.
Hydraulic disc brakes are arguibly more simple mechanism than mechanic brakes when you count in less need for adjustments, performance and price. That is non STI hydros.
Very well explained. Thank you. Some of this line of thinking applies to motorcars too. As in creating software, or home automation, ...it is easy to create something complex, with many points of failure and many dependencies. The elegant, clever and difficult challenge is to create something simple. We have simplicity now, if we choose it.
You present an apt analogy, I feel, to the bike component manufactures. In an way, it is like the fashion industry needing to sell product periodically.
I'm with you on this!
I’m with you on this. I used to teach orienteering and navigation. When GPS came about my students said these were redundant skills. I countered with what are you going to do in the middle of the wilderness when your GPS unit breaks or runs out of batteries? Always take a paper topo map and compass into the wilderness in addition to your GPS. (BTW the story Into the Wild would have had a positive outcome if a topo map was in the mix). I like mechanical too cause I like the feel of friction shifting.
This very well said. Thanks!
I don't know if I'll ever switch to electronic but as of today there isn't any advantage for me over cables. I understand how in a race you want super fast shifts but for my commute and sunday rides I am not out there shifting gears that often.
I love my hydraulic brakes though, and I don't understand the dislike. They've never given me any trouble and bleeding them every 1 or 2 years isn't that hard.
hydro brakes are absolutely amazing in their function. that being said im still out here running mafac raids on wet pnw singletrack. just love old crap and im willing to learn to ride with it. as for e- shifting. im good. shifting peaked at shimano mega 9 xt. ill die on that hill.
Hey Russ- I completely agree with everything you say.
Price and ecosystem aside, rim brake di2 still exists, firmware on di2 allows for use of MTB derailleurs.
My super aero road bike is a 1x with a di2 mountain derailleur and an 11-40 cassette. The bike is entirely out of your per-view but as a party pace roadie, options still exist.
My Blackheart Ti has electronic shifting, but my early 90s Diamondback Axis is fully analog. Love em' both!
As a mechanic I have done many support rides. With the electronic I have seen dead batteries, derailleur and bent hangers that can't be bent back or they will break, ride over. With mechanical even with a badly bent hanger you can adjust it so they can finish their ride nice and easy. My experience.
Also another thing to consider is the e waste generated down the road with these electrical systems, it might work wonders a while after purchase but what about in the long haul? I have bikes from the 40s with geared hubs that shift like a dream, i don't want anything electrical on my bikes, analog only for longevity and simplicity.
Spot on Russ. Actually one of the many reasons I ride bikes is for the physical grounding. There is something special about the interaction of the body with the bike and with nature. If you think about it, a bike, with it's few simple levers/mechanisms (frame, pedals, gears, wheels) is really are not much different than our own bones and muscles. Bikes are "body analogs" that extend and amplyify our movements. And the result is something we can zip through forest and road at just right speed to be thrilling but also absorbing. In an increasing digital world, I really want to keep my biking world "analog". I like what you are doing with the friction shifter. I'm thinkin' about it!
Welcome to Spain guys, from an Aussie travelling up and down the east coast in a futile attempt to find the best place to live and ride.
Way too many choices so far, so we'll just enjoy the journey and eventually/maybe come up with a destination.
P.S. Electronic shifting? I'm 100% with you on that topic and thanks for calling them out on it.
As we would say Downunder "Yeah, but nah."
I like your description of being locked into an ecosystem of products. I especially think about that with two of my bikes being belt-drive and internal gear hub. I've got some increased challenge if I ever want to re-engineer the drive train, such as new cogs and belt to change the foundational gear ratio of the bike. And, I've already been thinking of and looking at a change on my flatbar commuter with trigger shifter; because I really like the dropbar and brifters of my gravel bike. It's not likely I'll make the change (but maybe); it's just a vanity temptation. On the other hand, I wouldn't hate to have electronic shifting for my IGHs; I'm already locked into a snug ecosystem with those components, so having to stick with a specific brand for e-shifting wouldn't feel as restrictive. However, it would require entirely new IGHs; because the shifting mechanism is not compatible. That makes it far less likely I would change, but if it were offered on these bikes in about ten years, maybe I would refresh on the new offering. Maybe.
100% on the "Selective Simplicity" and prioritizing what you want to control at a fine level and what you want to "just work"
And yeah, bike part compatibility, ugh, I remember coming across an amazing new (NOS) frame with Columbus tubing back in the late '80s that was dirt cheap (like 10x less than similar). Turns out it was because it had a French threaded bottom bracket., which the shop owner said were nearly impossible to find at the time.
Well, you mentioned yourself, everyone has their own preferences. I shifted to di2 during COVID sale, and I loved it. I am using 11 speed di2 on one of my road bikes (old school rim brakes and cannot take more than 26 mm wide tire), and absolutely loving it. The shifting is crisp, under load and I would not change a thing! Being said that, the other two bikes came with SRAM mechanical and hydraulic brakes, and I am happy with them both. I love riding, also travel with my bikes sometimes, never had any issues, generally carry spares that maybe not available widely.
Again I am someone who does not fiddle around things, if they run just fine. One less battery to charge, agreed. And I do agree with what you mentioned in your video…. At the same time, I am quite happy with what setup I have. Am I going for upgrading my mechanicals, NO. However I cannot deny the beauty and convenience of electronic system. ❤️✌🏾
Agree mostly. If there was a public, open standard protocol for electronic shifting to which manufactures could adhere to would be cool.
1k miles after installing GX eagle axs. Just bolted it on, Never set it up, I’ve never had to adjust it, every shift had been perfect.
@connyconiglione yeah the price isn’t great. But I think for more recreational equipment the intended “life cycle” is about 5 years. Does that suck? Depends on how you look at it. There’s dudes who are tech nerds who little all the electronic stuff and tbh that’s really not me.
But I’ve liked the lack of cables on my MTB and the absolute lack of adjustment or fuss and perfect shifts. Yeah I charge a battery once every few rides but for me the benefits are winning for sure.
There’s always gonna be boutique bikers and I’m super into it.
Build a billet mech that lasts into the ages, I love it, better for the environment too.
But if you gotta adjust the B spec often, fuss with the cable every quarter that kinda sucks.
Just wait till sram goes full BMW on the industry and we have to buy subscriptions to be able to go use the stuff we bought.
Haha, just goof’n.
@connyconiglione with E commuters I totally see everything having E shifting. You see that E bike pinon gearbox?
I've built my bikepacking ATB recently from 0 and I am so happy I went FULL mechanical route with Microshift AdventX and TRP Spyke. I am happy I will spend pennies to maintain it in the long-term and more money I can spend actually going places.
My girlfriend has gravel bike with hydro brakes and I am considering I may upgrade one day, but at the same time I don't want to mess with all the fluid bullcrap.
fluid is a nightmare... and a 2 hour waste if your life!!😢😮
You make a lot of valid points....as long as the shifters are mounted on your bars I don't see huge tangible differences in shifting (unless you are racing seriously). It has worked very well for the most part.
We have the same issues in digital photography...I cant tell you how many times I have hear the term "game changer" in regards to a new sensor or increase in megapixels. I wasn't aware that my game needed to be changed! I have been taking great images for a a lot of years now and other than the manufactures telling me that my 6 year old "game changers" are no longer good enough cameras I see no reason to change. It's all just about marketing, and selling more stuff.
I love my all-mechanical parts bin bikes. It is on its way to becoming a niche market like film photography did, complete with price ups and downs, things that disappear, and expensive boutique items.