The Expanse's Greatest Battle: Thoth Station
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- čas přidán 9. 05. 2020
- The Assault on Thoth Station was a battle that seemed to end before it started - it was short - but the tactics employed on the part of the mission crew were unique and are worth taking a closer look at. In Today's video we are going to do just that as well as look into the story behind this now famous battle.
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The greatest bit about this is that the Stealth ship didn't explode once it was killed. It's just went dark and slowly drifted off. Perfect.
Its not like they have tanks full of antimatter that explode once the magnetic bottle fails.
@@miles2378 it could explode but it depends.
Like if you hit the reactor it might explode or hit cargo with explosive yield.
But if that doesn't happen it will just get disabled to a point it is destroyed.
Tbh I didn't expect to see the ship so fucked from the pdc barrage. It's like shooting holes in paper.
@@mr.voidroy6869 im suprised that the Stealth ship tried to fight that close to the station.
Yet as far as we know it was just left to drift away, no attempts at making a claim or striping it for salvage was made. Which makes no sense at what belter would let a prize such as an stealth ship just drift to become junk.
@@SpottedHaresin a later episode Fred trades the location of the stealth wreck to avasarala as a way to clear his name
One of my favorite little details of this battle is that the Rocinante is depressurized with all crew wearing suits and safety harnesses. This obviates the danger of fires, pressure waves from explosions, losing atmosphere and/or life support, being thrown from you seat, etc. These feel like such obvious precautions that I'm surprised I've never seen it before in any other piece of science-fiction on screen.
The interior battle damage also looks a lot more intimidating than the usual exploding consoles. The molten spall falling to the floor once the ship accelerates is a nice touch.
The bullets cutting through the hull like that...oh boy.
Also, while not quite depressurized, most Federation ships from Mobile Suit Gundam have a "full armored space suit" battle stations standing, usually when operating in deep space. Considering the usual fate of warships when faced with mobile suits....
You are sooo right. This battle has way more stakes and impact than 99% of space battles we've seen before. By grounding everything in real physics without any space magic (grav plating, I'm looking at you) the danger feels so much more real.
That seems to be standard procedure on smaller craft; the only reason the Donnager didn’t show this was because of its bridge design
@@hellfish2309 Probably. After all, the Rosi did not exactly have a lot of space for heavy armor or anything, so they kind of knew well beforehand that they're going to get filled full of holes so no being pressurized was a good thing. Small bullets the Rossi could handle, they just had to avoid the railgun and its Volkswagon sized shell which would rip the ship in half with a single shot.
@Joakim von Anka Yep. Traveller RPG also included evacuating the air prior to battle as a standard procedure.
Best product placement ever with the fedex containers. Love it
When you absolutely, positively have to breach a space station overnight.
There are glowing trails of melted metal suspended in the 0g vacuum of the Resonate's cabin from bullet penetration that just hang, silently, motionless, until they suddenly drop when the ship pulls a maneuver that generates g-force! Beautiful detailed story telling and commitment! Just. Wow.
I love this video surmising the epic battle that is this moment in the show ...but sadly there is just no way to capture or tell the true epicenes of this battle without watching it, in context because of the intricate level of craftmanship that went into it.
The Roci makes her crew into the heroes they were destined to be. Everything changes for the main characters after they acquire her. She completes and elevates her crew into their higher selves. She is the fifth crew member.
Umm technically the 7th crew member.
The realest people in all of space television/moviedom. How this series flew under the radar for 5 years in almost criminal.
the reason there was only one stealth ship was because that was the last one. According to the wiki 9 ships of the class were built, one as a testbed that was dismantled, the anubis was lost after infection by the protomolecule, 6 ships were lost attacking the donnager when the donnager self-destructed, and the last one was here at thoth
Interestingly there were two stealth ships present at Thoth station in the books, but as I recall they were a smaller class of ship than the ones that hit the Donnager. Fast attack interceptors as opposed to larger frigates. The class distinctions aren't made quite as clear, but these two ships fly close formation, close enough that until they come fully online, the Roci crew believes that they're just one ship.
@@andymac4883 I think the reason why they choose to use one ship is soley because it costs less.
@@reldies5364 Indeed, they already have a stealth ship model, no need to make a new smaller class when they could just reuse that art asset.
Not to mention the catharsis factor for the audience. In the books the only time a PoV character sees one of the ships is when they find the stricken Anubis, but in the show we the audience get to see the attack on the Cant and Donnager from the outside, getting a good look at the ships, so being able to watch the Roci tear one to shreds is a real treat. Going up against two, though, would be a little far fetched.
@@andymac4883 well the two stealth ships on thoth station were smaller.
the anubis class ships were frigate sized and a bit larger than the rocinante/tachi wich is classified as corvett / torpedo boat.
the thoth station ships are described as smaller than the rocinante but faster and more agil. they were named stealth fighters / stealth torpedo bombers.
and the rocinante blasted them with a close proximity torpedo explosion, wich fried the rocinantes systems.
also the fight on the station was significantly different and the goal and objectives in the operation were different to the show.
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 Yeah, I know they were smaller, I said so in both of my comments :p My point was more that, since they were reusing the same ship at Thoth instead of a smaller version, two of that class of ship would be a little too much for the Roci to take.
I love that you framed this as a history lesson
Does anyone know how much it'd cost to FedEx a container across the solar system?
If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
At this point, probably a billion dollars. But you'd have to wait half a century for it to get there.
@@Spectre-wd9dl And if no one's there to accept the delivery it gets shipped right back.
Whatever the market will bear
Assuming your asking for a friend?
Watching that battle for the first time, and seeing the Roci maneuver around INSIDE the stations ring, was pure surprise, joy and admiration. I never saw ANYTHING so spectacular!
:Millions of people died on Eros" It was actually 100,000 according to Joe Miller.
Depends on the version, it was more than a million in the book
@@acarrillo8277 oh snap you know what, i totally forgot about that. I havent read LW in a few years but just rebinged the show the last week
1 million according to the belters, 3 acording to protogen XD
@@auxencefromont1989 hey gotta get more funding from Jules-Pierra, right?
It was Millions in the books, the show has been consistent in scaling down things for whatever reason.
I think canonically that stealth ship was the last one remaining after the donager fight.
Thoughtful Insanity yea it was there was only 9 of them made because the first one was taken apart for the parts one was destroyed by the roci earlier on and the other 6 destroyed with the fight with the dinager
@@nightcoreandmemes7754 Man, Donnager was one tough mofo.
Wish we got to see more scenes of that battle... :'(
sodori yea she was a tough bugger she took 6 very advanced warships and destroyed 4 before I was destroyed by its own self districton
They went in thinking they would not lose. If deployed their small ship and fired their higher range rail guns at once, they actually should not lose. Pity.
sean C true dat the smaller corvette could have acted as a cover for the ships rear witch was shown to take damage in the battle
One of the best moments in the show! Great analisys!
And some weeks ago, I've watched the Last Jedi Bombers drop bombs on a Imperial Cruiser... very slowly, as they were being hit by some kind of rays, while the bombs fellt down on a zero-gravity environment due to unknown forces of nature... and I thought: "why did I spent 15 minutes of my life seeing this?" :-) (sorry for english mistakes!)
Avasarala: "I play a familiar role. The stubborn, old woman, eyes locked on yesterday's game. Too blind to see the world has passed her by."
Because the people don't change and she knows that.
He was a leaf on the wind! I thrilled at how he soared!
(All respect to Alan, but he didn't have to fight phisics)
There's is nothing so terrible as a battle lost, except a battle won. - Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington
I am watching all your Expanse videos again while rewatching the show. I dig your lighting in this video. Fire animated in the background, with a lamp on the side for that projection on your face. Chefs kiss 😘
So Alex, if the plan was modified so that the breaching pods were only launched _after_ you'd made a pass taking out the station's defenses, or several _empty_ breaching pods/cargo containers had been launched in front of the manned pods to act as decoys…
Nevermind… good piloting, wanna use the comms to message the wife and kid?
That would require that they would be a well prepared fighting force. They weren't. They weren't even a militia. The were just some people with very little time to complete this mission. Most of them were untrained civilians who barely knew each other.
Launching the pods after the initial exchange of fire between the Roci and Stealthship but before a clear victor emerged was an all-in strategy by the OPA. If you wait for a clear winner, you may still miss a chance to get people aboard the station even if the Roci is defeated. This timing accounts for the fact that by most metrics the Roci is still severely outmatched in all but point blank grappling fights and even there, the Roci barely came out the victor. During repairs in the following episode, Drummer pointed out that if even one round had been a short distance from where it actually impacted, the Roci would have died in a full core breach.
So if you accept the possible defeat of the Roci, you then need to delay the Stealth long enough to get your boarding teams on Thoth. From there, you might be able to get critical data, personnel, and fortify against a counter attack by the Stealth's potential boarding teams. There's a scenario in here where everyone dies just to get data relayed out to the OPA about what's been going on.
As for decoy pods, they would either have to be automated in their behavior or manned by a human pilot to guarantee success. Given the only previous combat encounter in which anyone survived against these Protogen ships, saw extensive communication jamming and use of electronic counter measures to jam long range comms. A remote controlled decoy would be vulnerable to electronic interference, revealing the manned pods when they did not seem to be affected by the ewar attack. Automated behavior may have worked, but then you have an issue of the automated flight path being non adaptive and the potential to reveal the true boarding pods if only some of the pods look like they're manned.
As it was, Fred Johnson had limited resources to work with and everyone who volunteered knew it was potentially a one way flight.
Alex is a damned hero and while not an ideal father/husband, he is an excellent human being.
@@zhaimorenn8273 Also, additional boarding pods means additional cost.
What would the decoy achieve? Its not like the station will run out of ammo.
Worse, what if the decoy landed successfully but the ones following after all get shot down? One would feel pretty stupid for missing the opportunity.
@@plep1046 The decoy takes the first shot, the other fully manned pods get a free ride while the anti meteor gun reloads.
You get them to waste a valuable shot.
Just lob a couple of extra containers at the station with guidance computers making them behave like breaching pods, they don't know that you only have enough troops to fill two pods, so they target the easiest shots first.
And if the Stealth ship decides to risk taking a shot at that time, it has a chance of taking out an empty pod instead of a full one.
Some ICBMS had (or they planned to?) decoy MIRV for when the Star Wars missile defence shield looked a possiblity, their jobs were to soak up limited interceptors.
Brilliant video beratna, hope to see some future battle breakdowns from season 3 (and 5 in the future)
Taki beratna! Mi pensa I do many more Expanse battle videos!
@@GenerationFilms Yes, yes, please do more battle scenes from S3.
Or the Roci towing the Barb while defending from Murtry's exploding shuttle from season 4
Impressive understanding! I love all of the battles!!! Please do more including the military tactics... Like when Holden used nukes to blind their sensors and Alex sheared off their engines!!! I think Holden for desinging the plan was the true genius!!!
I love the documentary feel. Give us more of a future Indy Niedell or as I call him...American Ben.
Another good (and simple) battle, in Episode IFF, was when Holden took on a UNN ship that was pursuing Avasarala on the Razerback.
I remember a comment saying that the human equivalent is a smaller guy throwing sand at a bigger opponent's eyes then going for the knee caps. Fight dirty in real battles.
Oh HELLS yes! Everything about that sequence was perfect. The swarm of missiles protecting the Razorback, the salvo detonating to blind sensors, and blasting through the corona SIDEWAYS pitching around at breakneck speeds to blow the drives off the UNN ship. Space dogfight done right, with my boy physics backing me up.
I'm always seeing attacks on Thot online …
…
…
Mild dislexia can be annoying.
Thot station sounds like a nice place
I hear ya.
If she breaths...
AoT attack on thot
😂
Either Amercian Ben has been _replaced by an alien,_ or all his singlets are in the wash and he's had to break into his social event wardrobe that has been unused since the lockdown.
I think someone had a wardrobe change approved,
The red tape that must have been cut.
It took weeks to get a hair change approved, and you should have seen the infighting among people in upper management about whether to let me wear the jacket or not.
@@GenerationFilms I can imagine. Does this mean there is an Anti-Wrinkled T-shirt rule now? We Generation Tech and Film fans would miss the slightly wrinkled shirts. maybe the odd wrinkles T-shirt?
@@GenerationFilms And you still had to censor a button on it? What was it?
@@GenerationFilms Either way, you're looking sharp my man!
The battle with the Stealth Ship was exciting. War out there in a sea of tranquillity. What they say on Earth " stick around and things will change". High Drama like this should continue well into the Twenty-first Century. Matching the Wonder of Technology at present and in keeping with Eyes on the Prize. This viewer's Prime Time. Brian A Koller
That was one of your best works I've seen
I wonder what was blocked out on your Jacket.
Excellent overview and breakdown of the battle. This battle is probably the most intense and realistic anyone could hope for.
Enjoyed this.
Thanks dude! Really appreciate it!
I saw the GF reply. Did we ever find out what was blocked out?
@@TommygunNG no I don't think they can legally reveal what was on the jacket
At least on some sort of public forum like the video that it's posted on
@@AdmiralStoicRum Legally? Or PC-comforningly?
I grant you, the two are hard to distinguish sometimes nowadays (1A violation).
I literally just watched it since I saw how cool it looked from your strategic battles video. SpaceDock got me to watch the show first, but you guys brought me back to it. Stay awesome!
Thank you for the tribute to Alex. I've been annoyed by people on Reddit saying Alex is "just a bus driver." Yeah, the actor did some very bad things and deserved firing, but the character of Alex is a kindly, decent man [well, except for that deserting-his-family thing] and a helluva pilot.
👀We may or may not have a character breakdown coming out on a character by that name in a week or so. Just rumors for now...
That ending hits different after Alex had a stroke ):
This was such a great moment in this great show and thank you for going in depth on this moment. If you haven't already already done one yet could you do one about the battle with the Donnager?
Thank you for all The Expanse videos. Love them, and keep them coming...
Thx for watching!
That was fantastic Ben!
Look forward to more.
Hey...my man combed his hair and rockin a blazer 🤣🤣🤣. Thanks for the Expanse videos. I really love the show. They really nail the physics of being in space. That 1 scene from the first or second episode where the rail cannon punches through the ship taking off dudes head then as vacuum was pulling the guys blood and their air out . the sound became really muted
Thanks for showing up to watch or no one would have believed I looked halfway decent today.
I'm conflicted. The entire battle sequence was confusing and did not allow me to get a handle on who was doing what to whom, and where. On the other hand, credit to the creators who honestly went to great lengths to stay within the laws of nature and respect the constraints of the technology in their universe. As opposed to most other sci-fi that is just unphysical and silly in battle scenes. Big thanks to Ben for explaining it so well.
This was Awesome !! More Please. Thank You :)
excellent video and analysis this battle is one of my favorites in science fiction
Looking sharp American Ben. Kudos
Obrigado por manter a chama dessa série viva
@8:05 There is another explanation as to why there was only one Stealth Ship guarding the station; They took losses with the battle against the Donnager as well as losing another that Julie Mao was aboard to the incident with the proto molecule infestation.
The Stealth Ship guarding Thoth Station may very well have been the LAST Stealth Ship left.
Brilliant video, hope to see more of ur videos in the future
Nice fireplace it reminds me of the holidays
Haha I knew you'd appreciate it.
Amazing video!
100% agree with your assessment AB. This was probably my favorite episode of 'The Expanse' to date.
outstanding!!
Deft pastiche of military history films. Bravo!
wow thank you for this eye oponing
"SURPRISE ASSHOLE!!!"
I've watched this episode at least 5 times since I saw it air on SyFy and I still get emotional when Alex says the above line. I was totally invested in the characters & world by this point that when the assault started I watched it standing up with my arms folded while rocking on the balls of my feet. So your history lesson felt like it was recalling something I was actually involved with.
Your insight into The Expanse is wonderful, and that's coming from someone that was a fan before Screaming Firehawks was spoken on the show. Keep making these and I will continue to watch, share, and support by liking & commenting. Your other pop culture vids are great, but your Expanse videos go above and beyond what anyone else is doing on CZcams. Stay safe beratna!
Well done Sir, well done!
Love this
Bravo Sir, Bravo!
A brilliant breakdown for those who don't know the Expanse done in your typically engaging and enthusiastic way. I also liked the jacket but I couldn't help wondering just what was being covered up by the black strip.
You'll never know!!! 😂😂😂😂
Embrace the madness, American Ben...
Great expose mate, I remember watching that episode and loved it. Back in a time when I could get access to The Expanse. Just curious, what’s with the black patches stuck to your screen??
Alex Camel is the greatest pilot of his time
Im laughing outside and crying inside. Whyyyyyyy???
Now if only his actor had lived up to the character. S6 will be the end because of him.
@@Restilia_ch he wont be in s6, and s4-6 wouldnt exist without him
@DW H yea I was commenting on his pronunciation of Kamal...
That was a good episode.
I cant emphasize enough how much it meant to me that Alex returned to the SIM even after the event, that's top notch attention to detail.
That said, i still think the Roci vs the ship that escorts Mao's Yacht was a better strategical masterpiece.
As always, another great video from you! Thank you for all of your time and effort, it is truly appreciated!
I was wondering though… railguns aren't really close-range weapons, are they? As close as I can tell, both ships in the battle were relying on their point defense systems, yes?
Loved the POV, portraying this as history. American Ben and the writers may have paid a little unintentional nod to Hari Seldon
The Rocinante had 6 PDC’s/ 5 to bear during a side/side strafing run. The stealth ship had 4 total, only 3 to bear too. Obviously ammo was an issue but in a straight slug fest in cqb, Roci was likely to win.
Dont the stealth's have 2 PDC's??
The coat and fireplace was a nice touch. Your shirt is still wrinkled tho...
Love the breakdown Beltalowda! Alex Kamal can be my pilot any day.
Thanks dude I was in a warm mood. This is a weird stage of Protomolecule infection!
@@GenerationFilms you're most welcome beratna! Hopefully you don't become a hybrid. Hate to have to roast ya
now I remember great
Good clip
man this video has much more meaning now.
In the books, I think Nemesis Games, Alex got married way to young. So his apathy for his wife was more about not being in love. This happened frequently when I was in the Navy. New recruits would get married for the bonus. And in reality, the Roci crew becomes his family.
Alex loved his wife, but loved being a pilot more. It's that simple, and also the same (except the kid) in the books.
«Kamal» puts preassure on the second «a».
Is it just me, or did anyone else feel like the were watching old PBS show looking back on history. I can’t wait till Christopher Nolan IV makes a movie about that fateful battle.
Damn! dude really make the Expanse battle video like he said he would
Dude, I love you, but buy a pashang hair comb, please!
Awesome video, as always ;)
Alex was, to quote an equally great space pilot "a leaf on the wind"
2nd best now, top spot is now taken by the Rocinante vs the Free Navy from season 5
he's in love with the crew and ship as am i
Yeah. That was a mouthful.
do escape of the UNN secretary general next!! you have too!
RIP Alex!
The Scopuli wasn't attacked by the Anubis. They went looking to take it, and wound up biting off WAY more than they could chew. So, the Scopuli attacked the Anubis, not the other way around.
I am obsessed with this tv show and I regret watching it cause I can't stop thinking about it now. Are there any similar shows other than Game of Thrones.
gotta love fedex breaching pods
I would have did what the other commentor said also, Had him make a pass on their railgun before attacking the ship (which they didn't know was there). And/or launch empty pods on the same or close to the same trajectory as the two manned ones. But I know why this wasn't done. They assumed that the Rocinate would be enough to take on the station and act as support. As stated before they didn't know there would be a stealth ship at the place. But what gets me is that if these OPA or some of them have done piracy you would think that Fred the leader of it would have used another ship and built or added on it a railgun to launch projectiles at the stations defenses.
But as was said, they weren't trained for this and didn't have enough intelligence to what ships where there and what defenses they might have.
They did actually have intel on the Stealth's presence- during the mission planning they pulled up a picture with a grainy silhouette of the stealth that the Roci's crew instantly recognized.
They knew the Stealth was there, however they didn't know about the anti-asteroid cannon, which was what became the problem for the Roci to deal with whilst simultaneously not being blown apart by the Stealth
Rail guns are overly expensive in the expanse. So much so that the Belters dont have any. Also earlier on in the series its stated that rail guns are not normally mounted on ships the size of the stealth ship surprising the Donnager even more than the complex torpedo guidance systems those ships had. Fred may have been building the largest ship in history but it wasn't his money or resources. The Rocinante only gets a rail gun in season 4 because of some U.N.N. supporters, which the Rocinante wasn't built for causing recoil strong enough to keep the ship in a low orbit.
Not only is mounting a rail gun expensive, it's also mechanically difficult. Firing a rail gun creates *heavy* recoil due to Newton's third law. Even the Roci- an actual military frigate- had to undergo an extensive refit in order to support a rail gun, which had to be keel-mounted to for structural support. The OPA didn't have access to military ships of their own, so it would have been even harder. They tried to mount rail guns on the Behemoth, but never even fired them; they were too scared that doing so would break the ship.
For the next video can you best designed fighters in sci fi. The reason exapanse and the best designed bridges and best ships for evacuating humanity.
Anyone know what is up with the black box on the guys jacket that is jumping around and changing sizes?
Will you make video about boarding Pizzouza from 4th season? Its interesting battle with impact on later story and victims.
Maybe! I like the scene a lot it's just very quick but with background and stuff it could make for a substantial video.
Could you do a video talking about the duel between the Rocinante, the Razorback and the UNN Agatha King?
The Agatha King was Admeral Sother's comandship taken over by Adm Nughen and destroyed over IO the ship chasing Draper and Avarala was never named.
@@miles2378 Whoops you’re right. But now the best battle has to be the fight between the Roci and the Zmeya.
Agatha King was a Truman Class battle ship, I assume you're talking about the battle were the Roci blows one of the engines of a Leonidas Class ship?
Just thought of an interesting battle between the Rocinante vs the Raza from the show Dark Matter. Who do you think would win?
The best of the best always think they can do better... what makes them the best.
have you actually watched the show at all? the battle you're talking about definitely takes place. the Roci was acting as air support for the breaching pods, otherwise Miller and gang would never have made it to the station, and Holden was definitely in the same room as Miller when he shot the scientist in the face.
it's also blatantly obvious that you've never read the books as well, because you obviously haven't done any research. you know Holden himself is former UN navy, right? and Alex was a mercenary? in other words 3 out of 4 crew members of the Roci have military experience.
Oh wow he forgot a few things. I get being faithful to the facts of fiction but this reads as overly patronizing.
damn you vids are good
Looking Sharp Today
Thx bruh. 😁
I feel like they could and should have sent out decoy pods to have a higher chance of both breaching pods making it to the station.
I think it is also a fair point that the Protogen corporation had already lost 7 Anubis class vessels, they may only have had a small number left, one may have been all they could spare.
S5E10 be like "The Expanse's greatest battle, huh?" :D
Best battle is coming up this season.
Camino drummer is the kind of woman that even feminists don't associate with, because she's such a boss that she doesn't need anyone's validation. I'd follow a commander like her, threw the bowels of hell. Along with the martian war goddess, Bobbie draper.
2 absolutely stellar roles. I wish them the absolute best in life, sincerely and seriously.
First name: American
Second name: Ben
I missed Alex so much best damn pilot in the Martian Navy
What's the pin on the jacket? Why block it out?
Instead of just launching 2 breaching pods and losing half the boarding crew, why not launch more with some as decoy for the station defences to shoot at?
Just like how the Mobile Infantry did during they planetary drop. The ship would launch several decoy pods and then launch the troopers.
Because then instead of having to choose to save Amos or the pod, Alex could have just been like LOL. It was a way to show Alex's character growth and the bond of friendship on the Roci crew after Amos threatened to use him as a human shield on board the Donnager.
"Me invincible!"
Calling Eros a space potato is outrageous for all the belters who've lost their life on it. We all know, it looks like a peanut.
It took me a minute to see where the frame of the SAMSUNG was... then it all made since.
not sure if its an issue with the camera, the editing, or the upload but there was an odd black box in the lower middle of the screen every time Ben was on the screen
I think ur losing it dude.