Dirk Nowitzki Is a Top-20 Player of All Time | Bill Simmons’s Book of Basketball 2.0 | The Ringer
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
- Dirk Nowitzki’s incredible career has earned him the title of best European basketball player ever, a spot in Bill Simmons’s exclusive 15-Year Club, and ownership of one of the NBA’s most recognizable individual moves in league history. HBO and The Ringer’s Bill Simmons examines Nowitzki’s career arc with the Dallas Mavericks and explains why he has him 17th in his Hall of Fame Pyramid.
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There was a moment in the 2011 playoffs where we wondered if Dallas could even get past Brandon Roy’s Blazers. And then, the next three rounds (all iconic players):
Defending champion Lakers (representing the past with Kobe and company, still really good) - Sweep
Thunder (representing the future with Durant/Westbrook/Harden, makes Finals the next year and three future MVPs) - wins in 5
Heat (representing the present, year one of LeBron’s super-team, would win the next two titles, first of 8 straight Finals for LeBron) - wins in 6
All that history and greatness plus Dirk’s own past futility they overcame in that one run...wow
There was a moment last year where the media was wondering if Kawhi could've beat the Magic, Sixers, Bucks and Warriors lol
Well said! It was an unbelievable run in 2011!
One of my random favorite facts is that Dirk is undefeated against Kobe and the Lakers in the playoffs.
Well said. It felt like a particularly special run at the time.
After that Roy game, the headline on the front page of the Dallas Morning News "Gag Reflex."
I thought most ppl considered dirk a top 20 player? His championship run is still the most impressive run I’ve seen in my years
Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Bird, Durant, Wilt, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, Russell, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Curry, Oscar, Durant, Kawhi, Shaq, Moses, Dr. J, the Logo. Which one of those players is he better than?
@@thomascrowniii1693 He's better than Durant. He kicked Durant's ass 6 ways to Sunday in the 2011 WCF. He's better than Moses. A lot better. He's better than Jerry West. A LOT better. He's better than Garnett. A LOT better. I think he's better than Bird. Did it longer. Did it with less help. He's on par with a lot of those guys too. On par with Kawhi. On par with Duncan. On par with Shaq. Probably better than Dr. J.
@@JoshuaFrick3 He's better than or on par with guys who won and scored and rebounded as much if not more than him and were vastly better defensively? That makes sense. By your logic Stephen Jackson is better than Dirk, because when the 8th seeded Warriors beat the Mavs, who had the best record in the league in first round, Stephen Jackson ate Dirk alive and held him to 38% shooting from the field in that series, where Dirk vanished. And how is Dirk a lot better than Garnett, who is a better passer, defender, and rebounder than Dirk. So he's better at everything but scoring than Dirk.But I guess there's only one side of the floor that matters....to some people.
Joshua Frick Better than Bird? Stop it.
@@DerethAC First of all, Dirk did it for a lot longer than Larry Bird. Bird's career was basically 9 years. Dirk's was easily 18-20 years. For example, Dirk is 6th in all time scoring. Bird is 34th. Second, Bird played with hall of famers---in their prime. Dirk had a much harder road to travel. He had a much heavier load to carry.
Dirk and Kidd escaped the shit list, together. ❤️
Nope Kidd is actual trash and overrated like crazy
@@AlexisSnyders Obviously you're holding some off the court stuff against Kidd... Because when it comes to on the court, Jason Kidd was a straight up legend. I'd argue that he's actually a little underrated... Kidd was quite possibly the best passer in NBA history, top 10 in career three-pointers, one of the best defenders in NBA history, probably the highest basketball IQ in NBA history, and he did all that with pretty limited athleticism.
Imdb Truth So you want a guy on your team who for his career averages 12 points per game on 40% from the field? Sure he could pass and defend and even rebound pretty well for a guard. He was also simply the most anemic offensive star of the modern era by far.
@@AlexisSnyders I care about winning, and Jason Kidd was the starting Point Guard for a playoff team for 18 consecutive seasons, only Stockton and Malone had longer streaks.
Kidd was not a scoring guard, he was a true pass first Point Guard. His offensive career averages and career highs compare pretty favorably with 2x MVP Steve Nash, but Jason also rebounded and played great defense even into his late 30's...
A 38yo Jason Kidd was a big reason that LeBron James averaged less than 18ppg in the 2011 Finals. Kidd also led all playoff participants that season in Assists, Steals, and Three-Pointers Made. It could also be argued that the most clutch shots in both the WCF and the Finals were Jason Kidd Three-Pointers.
1996-97 Phoenix Suns started the season 0-13 before Kidd was traded to the Suns 1/4 into the season... The Suns would go on to make the playoffs that same season... The 1996-97 Suns team is still the *only* team in NBA history to have a double-digit losing streak (prior to the Kidd trade) and a double-digit winning streak (after the Kidd trade) in the same season.
The Nets went from being a last place team in the season prior to trading for Kidd, then instantly catipulted themselves into being in the NBA Finals in back to back seasons.
Kidd could've had more rings if he had signed with San Antonio like they were hoping, but he showed loyalty and stayed in New Jersey.
Imdb Truth While he did have a lot of good team seasons, he was never a league MVP and often never even in the conversation for it. Even when he made 2 Finals with the Nets the East was a joke and he arguably wasn’t the best player on his own team (at least not in the Playoffs). Ultimately if you care about winning he never really did when it counted. His one championship in a long career had very little to do with him which I get into later in this post.
There are plenty of other non scoring guards who were much more efficient. In fact it’s almost impossible to find a less efficient scorer in NBA history period. The Nash comparison is totally damning for Kidd. There’s a HUGE difference between a hyper efficient 50 40 90 that Nash embodies and an all time atrocious 40% from the FIELD for an entire career. No great players in the modern era have that. None. John Stockton was as pass first as could be and still not only averaged more points but shot 11% better from the field with greater longevity. Beyond Nash and Stockton there are at least 20 point guards I would have to take before Kidd. Even Bob Cousy whose poor shooting percentage is often excused by the era argument barely shot worse from the field than Kidd. Those other categories like defense and rebounding are the ONLY reason Kidd’s name even belongs in a top 30 point guards discussion. Again other players have had great longevity as well.
Kidd was not a big reason he was just a game manager. Dirk was a huge reason, Jason Terry played like an All Star and outscored LeBron, that Dallas team as a whole was very balanced and Tyson Chandler was a great defensive force. For that ring Kidd barely deserves a mention. J.J. Barea arguably had more impact. He was the sixth leading scorer for Dallas and in classic Kidd form shot a terrible 38% from the field basically just being a subpar 3 and D guy. Terry was way more clutch.
An interesting cherry pick of a stat however that team stilled finished with a losing record so it’s much ado about nothing.
Kidd wasn’t the only good player on the Nets, Kenyon and Richard Jefferson were also very good. But yes the early 2000s were clearly Kidd’s best years.
He doesn’t get much credit for loyalty as he ended up not being with New Jersey for long after anyway. And further hurting his argument, Tony Parker turned out to be a better player than him, certainly much more efficient and even won a Finals MVP although I’m not a huge proponent of Parker either he was at least better than Kidd.
I’m curious where you would rank Kidd all time among point guards. I wouldn’t go higher than top 30. I value passing and defense as much as anyone but his scoring was a liability even at his best and rebounding as a guard, especially at point really isn’t that valuable.
Dirk won being the only All-Star in a roster of Stars-Past-Their-Prime. He led that team against a budding Portland, the former Champion Lakers (SWEEP), a future MVP-filled Thunder, and the Heatles.
All on HIS OWN, with the JET being the best sidekick. Now, THAT's a Champion.
@G-man You have amnesia bro.
Chandler became the DPOY the next year. He wasnt a DPOY yet. Though, CHANDLER was the Key that year because we finally had that decent center!
Kidd was effective yes, but he was no longer an All-Star. I already said JET was his sidekick and did some work.
But remove Dirk from the equation. Do you think that group would have reached the finals?
Lebron needed the Heatles, Kobe needed Gasol. Who can you replace Dirk THEN to reach the same peak he did? Name one at 2011. 😂
Who was Hakeem playing with in '94? There were no other stars on that team. Not past their prime or in their prime. There was Hakeem, who was a million times more dominant on BOTH ends of the floor than Dirk was
@G-man Lebron played awful in the 2011 Finals because the Mavs forced him to. Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, DeShawn Stevenson and Jason Kidd were all excellent defensive players and the Mavs gameplan highlighted Lebron's weakness. Mainly that if you took away his ability to attack the rim he was an average mid range shooter.
Nobody ever wants to give the Mavs credit for FORCING Lebron into a bad series while ignoring the Mavs did the same thing to Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant during that same playoff run.
@@thomascrowniii1693 The level of competition then Mavs defeated outweighs what Houston did in the 1990's. The Mavs were defeating championship caliber teams.
The Rockets were defeating very good teams that never won a title.
@@thomascrowniii1693 You can arguee Hakeem was the best center ever excluding nobody.
The 2011 Mavericks defeated the most impressive list of NBA superstars of any team in NBA history.
The Mavs sent home: Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Dwayne Wade, James Harden, Chris Bosh, Russell Westbrook, Pau Gasol, and LaMarcus Aldridge.
Dirks second best player during this run was Jason Terry.
That alone makes Dirk a top 20 player of all time.
dont downplay that team. They may not have been. their prime selves, but they were chalk full of former allstars, and veteran pieces. Peja, kidd, Chandler, marion, caron butler, JJ barea, corey brewer.
All time draft he's not a first round pick.
@@TheIcemanthomas Who's downplaying the 2011 Mavs? The 2011 Mavs had the most impressive title run of all time.
What im stating is that The Mavs defeated all these teams with multiple superstar players and the Mavs 2nd best player was Jason Terry.
On most championship teams Terry would be the 4th or 5th best player.
That title alone cements Dirk's place as a top 20 player of all time.
@@TheIcemanthomas what is your comment?
Caron Butler got hurt in the season and didn't play in the playoffs and you named peja who retired after the season and JJ and Brewer .
These dudes are literally roster fills, which is why JJ got no time for the wolves and Brewer doesn't play for any team for then 8 minutes
Dude, that team had a better record than Miami and had home court. They were no sleeper and that was hardly an upset. The 04 Pistons beating the Lakers would qualify for that.
I always say his Ring has to be the Top 3 greatest NBA Championship run in the last 20 years. Not a single soul saw that coming and the degree of difficulty was enormous.
And more times than not Dirk was the straw that stirred the drink.
Its 2nd behind Hakeem 94 title ( no other all stars or HOF player on the roster)
Julian Barkley was the only one who picked the Mavs from the start of those playoffs.
Stephen May its close but the degree of difficulty Dirk & Mavs had to overcome was harder. Additionally more future HOFers on this run than others..
@@julian_vision yeah but he also had better help than Hakeem did. Don't discount having Jason Kidd, the DPOY that season in Tyson Chandler, and Jason Terry with that bench with Rick Carlisle coaching. He never should've fired here in Detroit. That zone defense they threw at Miami combined with Lebron's meltdown sealed the deal. Hakeem went through HOF players on every team he faced that playoff run without a single all star or HOF player for a teammate. Thats literally NEVER been done with the exception of the 2004 Pistons.
@@elbowgang9715 Well you just trowing shade,Dirk have Chandler who was NOT DPOY he was 1 year later.He avrage 10/10 with 1 block per game nothing special as the best big man on the team next to Dirk.Kidd was old,so was Terry who have been with Dirk a long time.They finished 8 and nobody belived they will make it out of first round with Dirk not having very good season as well and everyone know it will just go downhill from there with old teammates.HE then go 4-0 vs Lakers in 2 time champions Gasol,Bryant,... then win vs Thunders with Ibaka,Durant,Westbrook and Harden (3 HOF in 1 team and 1 very good defender) And in Finals he beat "the so called GOAT" with top 3 SG in Wade and top 5 PF in Bosh with a lot of good side peaces.He beat them all so there are 8 HOF or at least 7 but i belive Bosh as Champion and a beast his time in Toronto will get to HOF status.And anyone who knows anything about basketball we all know Pistons should have at least 2 HOF and that year the way they played should have 4 all stars but they didnt show that in stats since everyone did their part but that team was fire.
2:52 Holy shit i forgot how atheltic Timmy D was early in his career. That's so clean.
I hate to be that guy but
Clide Drexler won a title with Houston
as a second option to hakeem
@@andimencias493 that's like saying kobe won 3 as 2nd fiddle to shaq. it's not that important
@@Odinson42 yeah but we're talking about what bill said about the "it's just not in me" guys
@@andimencias493 He was the second option, but he averaged 20.5/7/5 in the playoffs
I never thought about but yeah Dirk is a top 20 player and he did beat every all time great of his era
@J P stop it, Dirk is easily top 20 and it's not even a debate. He took down the Heat with no other All Stars, lasted 20 years in the league, and was one of the first big men to shoot the ball so effectively
@@jakejackson1444 Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Bird, Durant, Wilt, Lebron, Duncan, Garnett, Russell, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Curry, Oscar, Durant, Kawhi, Shaq, Moses, Dr. J. Which one of them is he better than?
@@thomascrowniii1693 Dr. J, KG, Kawhi and it's not even close
@@thomascrowniii1693 putting Kawhi in your top 20 of all time loses you any credibility you might've had
@@thomascrowniii1693 this nigga put curry and Kawhi in a top 20 list. Smh
Manu should be in the 15 year list as well
Dirk was playing like a man possessed during that 2011 playoff run. You don't see many players, even the greats, lock in like Dirk did during that time.
cause they put the right guys around him..tyson did the dirty work inside marion did it on the perimeter kidd did the point guard stuff terry spread the court same for peja brewer was a energy bunny haywood gave them toughness inside off the bench barea was a spark plug deshawn was a dawg cardinal gave him some rest without being awful for a couple minutes mahinmi was long fresh and dirk could just be dirk....caron carried the load in the regular season...
Isn’t Udonis Haslem on the list of guys who’ve spent at least 15 seasons with the same team and won a title?
DutchMastah07 Yeah he’s missing Manu as well
yea he took an L
Maybe he took into consideration the fact that both Manu and UD played in Europe at the start of their professional careers. Dirk was a teenager when he played in Europe.
@@rokaspuisys5070 no
Rokas Puišys nah manu still played 15 with the spurs
Dirk is first team all-media scrum technique, laid back lampin grip the mic like a roastmaster. GOAT tier swagger
i think people need to look at all nba more fairly theres 3 frontcourt 2 backourt so theres more chances to make an all nba team for bigger players 6 for guards 9 for fowards especially when you can lie an put dirk as a center to fit your narrative and just put him with kd and lebron for example in 2010 on first team
That was definitely top 3 in my lifetime of 32 years. Greatest runs to watch. That Mavs team, Pistons teamball team led by defense...and last years Toronto team. I think the rest of the titles in between were dynasty teams or legacy players.
I just wish we could've beaten the warriors at full strength that would've made it a wayyyy bigger accomplishment even tho I'm still very happy & grateful for the 2019 run
Lol you had me until Toronto. League is not exciting enough right now for that one to be up there. Mavs and PIstons run was definitely legendary, I'd put Mavs a bit higher though because it was straight shot after shot of legendary stuff from Dirk and then an insane team effort in the finals to defeat the most overpowered (at the time) team assembled that was heavily favored
15 year club also had Tim Duncan's two Spurs teammates- Manu Ginobili & Tony Parker. CRAZY
Parker played for the Hornets.
Came here to mention Manu too
I'm offended that Bill put Clyde, Ewing, and Ralph on that "I don't have it in me" list. They all faced teams that were just better than their's.
These videos are so good. Would gladly pay to watch him break down every player on his pyramid (whatever that means
Everything in this video is extremely fair and accurate imo... excepts for 1 thing. I could never have KD over Dirk. 2011 WCF Dirk absolutely *spanked* KD & the Thunder. True it might be the best basketball Dirk ever played, but it didn't even look like Dirk & KD were playing the same sport that series. Total dominance. No way I could have KD over Dirk. Never. It's not like KD was a rookie. 4th year player made to look like a 4th grader.
So you're going to forget that the Mavs were the number one seed and got demolished in the first round by the 8th seeded Warriors who made the playoffs the last week of the regular season? You're going to forget that Dirk got locked up by Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes?
@@thomascrowniii1693 I'm a Mavs' fan since 1988 homeboy. I can't forget that series, even if I wanted to, and trust me I want to. Don Nelson OUTCOACHED Avery Johnson by a country mile in that series. Bill Belichick switches over and coaches the Browns next season. You gonna hold it against Tom Brady if his former coach shuts him down the next season because he knows exactly how to defend everything Brady does and defend it perfectly? You sound like a huge Dirk hater. Must be another Black dude who thinks all White dudes suck. Racist.
until KD wins a title without an insanely stacked team (like in Brooklyn for ex) he's not higher than Dirk on my list. He's in a similar position to what Lebron had to face after he left Miami imo
We want the whole videos of these podcasts!
Forgot about Manu Ginobli. Only played for the Spurs for 16 years. Won 4 titles. And also Udonis Haslem. 17 Years with Miami, won 3 titles.
George Daugherty Manu is a great player but he’s never the best player on a championship team
@@alexismercado2372 being the best player on a championship team is not one of the criteria outlined by Bill to be in the 15 year club.
@@iotatl it was understood. Simmons was not talking about sidekicks (Manu) or role players (Haslem)
iotatl who says Bill Simmons list is the ultimate standard of the top players? Lol
Some are players are the one who lead and is the clear cut best players on the legendary moments of a all tome great team ie Jordan and not Pippen, Lebron and not Kyrie, Dirk and not Jason Terry, Duncan and not Ginobili. If you consider Manu even near a top 20 alltime great then your smoking
@@alexismercado2372 Manu was literally Luka Doncic before Luka was Luka. He comitted to coming off the bench to help his team that already had 3 superstars.
And wtf are you talking about that he never was the best player on a championship team. Go watch the 2004 Olympics and keep quiet next time 🤫🤫🤫
He is a top 20 player and a top 3 power forward , and I’ve been a heat fan my entire life
Harden seems little bit like Dirk right now - he needs a Dirk-like championship to help raise his status.
Andy H that is exactly right, if Harden get's a ring he's catapulted to the top 20 all time immediately
When did Dirk avenge 40ppg?
@@GSthe3rd what's your point?
@@GSthe3rd When has Harden lead his team to a chip?
I don’t think so. Aside from the 07 playoffs, Dirk always steps up in the playoffs unlike Harden who is amazing in the regular season but is mediocre in the playoffs. Harden can avg 50ppg in the regular season then drops it to 25ppg on 35% shooting in the playoffs 😂 😂
Love the vids bill!!!
I think Manu Ginobili is in the 15-year club also
Top twenty all time changed the game for bigs he did what Stephen did for guards its unbelievable the guards and forwards today copy his fader the ultimate respect momma there goes that man !!!
hakeem and dirk had the best title runs ever
rick barry mj and duncan say hi....mj has like 2 better runs
hakeem's 94 run is probably the greatest individual run ever..it was so nuts how much he put into that season and it probably hurt his prime later on in the 90's...
Shouldn't Udonis Haslem be on that 15 year list?
@@JJSideshowBob Manu as well?
Neither
lol he missed numerous people
Lovin how you put emphasis on the “ash” in Shitlist! Love the name of that list to Sir Charles!
steph is absolutely getting on that list
Absolutely!!! Dirk was a MONSTER
loved this ... and I agree Dirk is the greatest european ever and he's probably top 20 all time also
if we look at it objectively hes in that spot maybe 1 higher or lower...19-21...i can see the reasoning to put him 20..barkley did not win or have as long a prime...kg did not lead a team on his back to a title...or have as long a career impact games wise due to injuries really but you can argue them till the cows come home and not get an answer..that comes down to preference imo and to say hey dirk is all time at 19 is pretty good
@@razkable I pretty much agree with everything you said
Yes give us more video content
What a great run 2011 was!
Definitely top 20. He's like a guarantee 50-wins and playoffs ticket. Could have more rings if he had another all-star in his prime. Jason Terry is good, but not enough to win multiple rings as the 2nd option.
Dirk completely changed the game. He's the sole reason 7 footers are knocking down 3 pointers. He showed the world that all you need are players who can score. If you outscore your team you'll win every time.
David Robertson is also on that list - 15 years ( sneaky ) won a title , same team
How do you have Dirk above the Doctor?
everyone forgets dr. j in the aba his 4 finals runs..they think of him as a 1 time mvp and champ he would have at least 3 mvps and 2 titles if he came over sooner...we all know it...he is underrated
Yeah Dirk is definitely Top 25 and I can live with top 20, basically had an unguardable shot, won an MVP had one of the great championship runs in NBA history top 5 of the NBA all time scoring list
yeah being that high on the scoring list makes him at worst 21st for me longevity wise maybe at worst top 20...him vs barkley is a debate that I will give to dirk over him for longevity and a title and I can see people putting him over kg for the same thing um dirk vs kg and kd right now today is a debate imo at that 18-20 spot i can see kd in a year going ahead of them and kg vs dirk is so close so for me i have dirk at 18 kg at 19 kd at 20 barkley at 21...but people putting dirk over wade oscar dr. j moses karl hakeem or robinson i just can't do it sorry ...i love dirk but to say hes a top 17 player ever is a stretch the way putting him lower than 21 is....hes so close in that 18-20 range today and kd may surpass him putting him more closer to 20 than 16 so we have to factor that in imo....but i have watched enough dirk to know hes not better than 17 guys...he just isn't...not being biased i look at facts and watched them play...to say hes better than karl malone i just can't do that man sorry or moses or wade or robinson....come on now..
Dirk and Hakeem getting their first rings are the most impressive I think. Those guys had no business winning titles those seasons and yet they did.
The Rockets had the second best record in the league in 1993-94 and were no. 7 favorites going into 1994 regular season and after 15-0 start were the favorite to win it into the postseason. People and Vegas odds had more confidence in them than Seattle in 94 Western Conference ... Hakeem was the favorite to win MVP in 94 regular season and was considered now the best player in the world not named Michael Jordan during 1994.
Dirk played in the golden age of Power Forwards. At the top, we had guys like Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Kevin Garnett, and Dirk, all playing at the same time (though not all at their primes simultaneously). Then you have guys like Shawn Kemp, Chris Webber, and Rasheed Wallace, or guys who came after like Amar'e Stoudemire. When I look at all these dominant power forwards, and notice that pretty much all but Garnett did their best work in the West, I'm not surprised that there's an imbalance of power between the conferences that began in the 2000s.
Anytime Bill can sneak a Shawshank reference, he will do it! Haha
Steiney Mo: "...And his jizum tastes like schnitzel, so there's that, too, Bill."
Had the Mavs played and beat the Spurs that playoffs run, it will be the most satisfying perfection of a run for Dirk.
i mean dirk should of beat them in 2003 if dirk is healthy did beat them in 06 and 09 ...he owned the spurs and they lost as a 1 seed to a 8th seed in 2011 so it was a hilarious year for mavs fans to laugh at them while they were up 2-0 on la going home...
Dirk went in to the top 20 after his 2011 championship, but he was in that 16-20 range. Since then Durant, Curry, Kawhi, Giannis, possibly even Harden have either passed him or are on pace to ,if they keep it up. And Luka looks already to be the best Maverick of all time assuming he stays healthy. Much respect to Dirk though, he'll always be remembered in history as a champion, mvp ,the first great shooting 7ft footer, and greatest European player up to the point he retired.
juju 32 Idk if giannis and harden don't win a championship they aren't gona pass him
why aren't the full episodes up on video?
01:05 Drexler won a championship. Take him off your list
The fact that not only did you say this, but 21 other people agreed (so far), shows that no matter how easy it is to access information people still wont pay attention, and more importantly know when to doubt themselves.
@@Hotobu but he's right though
So did Elvin Hayes
@@bmon85ify correct but that's not the point Bill was making. The players Bill was naming were guys that were the best players on their teams and couldn't quite win a championship when they were the best player. Listen to what he said "missed the boat as an alpha dog".
The first part was about guys that never won championships.
@@Hotobu no, it was before the Alpha Dog thing. He said the "I just don't have it in me" All stars. Well Clyde clearly had it in him in 1995 even if he wasn't the best player. He was still elite that year and essential to that championship and so was Elvin Hayes with the 1978 Bullets. Kevin Johnson was not the best player on his team usually, especially when Barkley was there. Ralph Sampson had a very short window as an elite player. Regardless though, Drexler and Hayes don't belong on that list, but Dirk did prior to 2011
Dirk winning the chip in 2011 is like J.Cole going certified platinum with no feats.
15 year club is probably the most important..
What's up with putting all of those shooting forwards as power forwards? If Bird was a PF, what was McHale? I understand it can be a fine line between the 2, but still it's gotta be drawn somewhere.
Dirk won his ring by beating Kobe,Gasol,Durant,Harden,Westbrook,Lebron,Wade and bosh.His one ring alone might be the most impressive ever.
hakeem in 94 was just as good vs less stars but with a worse team ...those probably are the best runs ever...i can see someone putting dirk 1 over hakeem but what hakeem did was nuts in 94 i mean he had no one scoring 15 a night with him ...dirk had terry good for 18-19 4 and 3 a night ...hakeem had vernon otis kenny and horry capable of 10-14 each..and a bench of sam and ellie carl earl bullard brooks and jent..it was bad and in 95 yes they had clyde but vernon became useless playing 1 game in the playoffs basically and otis was gone and kenny broke down with injuries and age ..can't believe they repeated but horry sam got better and carl stepped up and so did ellie
Greatest championship run in any sport EVER. I will not debate this.
03 Duncan or 94 Hakeem are better but it’s up there
I got Dirk 15th. He is def top 15 for me.
Duncan is the greatest forward power forward ever
he also played center for majority of his career
Asmosis Jones no he didn’t only till late in his career he had Robinson and nazr and rasho, Tiago, Blair,
1 Duncan
2 LeBron (he has 1 ring with his original club where Duncan from 98-07 cultivated a championship franchise like Bill Russell did. Plus Duncan is a Center Forward. Thats better than a Power Forward. He gives you two worlds in one like Hakeem Olajuwon.)
3 Bird
4 Dr. J (Dr. J beat Bird in the postseason 2 of 4 series and had him only in his post prime athletic days so hes lucky he's ahead of Doc based on NBA vs ABA favoritism)
5 Karl Malone (still Kareem and LeBron strong durability and longevity)
6 Charles Barkley (Barkley won or challenged for MVP when Magic, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson and Jordan were challenging. Not when Kobe was on losing teams, SHAQ was old, Wade was injured, and Duncan was playing like Bill Russell and Garnett was trying to escape Minnesota and Nash was winning MVPs, this aint that, and one of em Nowitzki just dont belong with Barkley, 99 Barkley could have 30-23 game on 02 Nowitzki get outta here)
7 George Gervin (Iceman nuff said)
8 Dominique Wilkins (was 2nd in a black and blue division of Milwaukee, Detroit's, Chicago's, Cleveland's, Indiana's when the Central Division was posting 5-6 40-60 win ballclubs, people forget the East in the 80's was the West of the 2000's and Wilkins was robbed of a golden opportunity in 1993-94)
9 Bob Pettit (have respect for ur country Bill and ur hemisphere and an old school Atlanta Hawk aka St. Louis Hawk)
10 Durant (would have been ringless like Gervin had he not pulled a LeBron to win 2 rings)
11 Nowitzki (the greatest Euro ever belongs here maybe)
Honorable mentions to guys arguably more effective than Nowitzki:
Alex English
Adrian Dantley
Bernard King
James Worthy
Mark Aguirre
Scottie Pippen
Drexler @ SF with Houston from 95-98 1 ring just like Nowitzki...
Bill Simmons is on crack
Correction:
Duncan
LeBron
Bird
Dr J
K. Malone
Barkley
Elgin Baylor
Gervin
Wilkins 21
Pettit
Pippen (Pippen won 6 titles as a second man and had the impressive 94 3rd in MVP season, all to be respected, it'd be hard for Nowitzki to win 6 titles with MJ... harder for Nowitzki and MJ)
Durant
Nowitzki
Kemp
Aguirre
English
Dantley
Webber
Rodman
Etc.
Nowitzki is arguably worse or less valuable than any of those guys after him including Rodman.
U forgot ud in Miami for the 15 club
He's not.... But not to disrespect.. 🍇
In playground basketball, KG might have been better than Dirk. In organized professional ball, where offense truly does count for more than D, Dirk was absolutely, 100%, without doubt the better player. Look at the stats. Plus, Dirk vs KG matchups.... people may not not want to hear it, but Dirk crushed KG 1 vs 1. Numbers don’t lie. Dirk def top 20.... for now
What a list though
Why isn't Manu on the 15-year club? Apparently Haslem as well.
The fact that Simmons continues to pronounce Nowitzki with a soft w is kind of crazy. Does he not hear that he’s saying it differently than everyone else (I.e. incorrectly)?
You know what, I'm really starting to believe that Dirk IS underrated historically. He's at the very least in the top 30 as far as I'm concerned. Probably somewhere between 20-25. Some of the failures he's had make his placement a little complicated though. Losing the finals after being up 2-0 on the heat in 2006 (Though many will point to the refs on that account). Being a #1 seed and losing to the #8 seed which has only happened maybe 3 other times in NBA history. Losing to the #7 seed Spurs in 2010. But this is also the same guy who has PLAYOFF SERIES victories over:
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Dwayne Wade
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnet
Steve Nash
Kevin Durant
Russell Westbrook
James Harden
Karl Malone
John Stockton
That's 11 hall of famers and all-time greats that Dirk has defeated in a playoff series. And almost all of those players were either young or in there prime when it happened. that's pretty astounding actually.
Error in the graphics at 1:56, not just PF's but all Forwards.
He also listed Elvin Hayes in the it's not in me list. But He won a title with the Bullets/wizards and West unseld. Yes it was west team but he was the Co pilot.
Yes
It's "forward" at 1:56 right? Not "power forward". Because Tim Duncan should definitely be considered the best PF.
Yeah must be a typo, it’s Bills top forwards, so SF and PF.
What the freaking hell are you talking about at 1:56?
3 of those players are not Power Forwards.
Yeah, Lebron has played PF sometimes, but he's mainly a Small Forward.
Durant, Bird, and Lebron are SMALL FORWARDS. Say it with me. SMALL FORWARDS.
Dirk is the second best Power Forward to ever play. Maybe third if you put Karl Malone in there.
@Lord Beerus Garnett is better than Dirk in every way? Even shooting? Even three pointers? Even clutch plays? Free throws, passing? You sure about that?
Isn’t Udonis Haslem on the 15-Yaer Club?
Isn't Manu Ginobili part of that 15-year club too?
Can someone tell me who that is at 1:23?
The first guy? John Elway, he was a QB for the Broncos on the 80s and 90s. Bill is comparing him to Dirk as Elway got to the super bowl I think 3 times in the &0s and lost them all, he then won two in 97/98 (not as the best player, by then it was their RB Davis) but the Super Bow wins made him a top 5 QB ever, same as Dirks 2011 ring elevated him from a top 40 guy to top 20
Missin U D
*You forgot mentioning he's STILL the best shooting big ever and did it successfully way before everyone did it.
Later in the segment (on Spotify), you also repeatedly refer to Manu as a "Euro" and IIRC you even managed to say that Durant is taller than Dirk. Yes, Durant TALLER THAN DIRK.
Legal state much?
Manu is technically Euro even though he represents Argentina. He has dual citizenship in Italy and Argentina. But when it comes to basketball development, he is Euro kind of like Olajuwon is American. I don't mean that from legal status, but where they learned to ball. Olajuwon's basketball education came at UH, and Ginobili first made himself known in Italy, even winning an MVP award there.
As for their heights, KD's height is somewhat exaggerated in the media as being "over seven feet." He's actually something like 6'10" whereas Dirk is about 6'11.5".
@@mrmacross So based on your logic, then I guess Dirk's an American? Manu moved to Italy at 21. Dirk moved to Dallas at 20.
Manu is South American, period.
@@merrrlo I did say "technically" Euro. You can't deny his Italian citizenship. He was a Euroleague star before coming to the NBA. Dirk is not a US citizen (yet).
If he has an Italian passport, is the son of Italians, speaks Italian, lived in and played in Europe, then how much more does he have to do to qualify at least partially as Euro?
Don't get me wrong, I associate him with Argentina first and foremost, but calling him Euro isn't entirely inaccurate, either.
@@mrmacross Yep, much like Tony Parker is *technically* an American. Sure.
spent whole career in one team as the team leader and wins one ring > moved from team to team to join up with fellow all stars and wins 3 rings
I think that should say "Forward Power Rankings," not "Power Forward Rankings," because LeBron, Bird and Durant are not power forwards. Nor is Dr. J. The best power forwards are Duncan, Dirk, Garnett, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and Bob Pettit, not necessarily in that order.
What makes Dirk better than Garnett, who won MVP and DPOY?
@@thomascrowniii1693 It's a toss-up between those two. I think it's a toss-up between Dirk, KG, Barkley, Malone and Pettit. You could put those guys in pretty much any order.
@@thomascrowniii1693 being the most influential player of this era > just another DPOY...
Besides he's clearly better effectively.
Better personality, harder earned title, loyality, overcame adversity as an European and THE Stretch Big in history vs KG being the cliche NBA superstar that got it handed to him, longer career, better record and overall success despite being in a tough division and only playing one year of his career with another All Star... the game would be another one without him
Dirk du bist der beste wooohooooo.
I think steph and Klay will join the 15 year club
To all the butt hurt Kevin Garnett fans on this thread.....I don't care how "well rounded" you are if it does not equate to winning in the post season.
From 1995 to 2007 Kevin Garnett only won two post season series.
In 12 seasons playing in the Western Conference Kevin Garnett only made it out of the 1st round once.
KG never won until he went to a weaker conference and he played with plenty of talent in Minnesota.
DIrk's teams consistently won in the Western Conference when it was the most stacked conference in NBA history. Dirk was also a much better post season player than Garnett.
KG was an average post season player for much of his career.
yeah dirk was legendary, pretty sure he himself got dallas lots of 1st seeds in the mid 2000s. if well rounded = better player, then i guess to those people James harden is too "one dimensional" and isnt even a top 5 player in the current league
This is the most bias b.s. I've ever read. 😂🤣🤦♂️Everyone knows K.G. played for a disfunctional Franchise during his entire prime and was loyal to a flaw! You comparing his lack of playoff Success to Dallas Mavs one of the best ran franchises in NBA history is obsurd and dishonest. When players from his era are asked who would they rank 1,2 and 3 Dirk always comes 3rd behind T.D. & K.G. because he doesn't play defense. There's players like K.G., Amare & Rasheed who admit his was Special on offense but are on record in podcast/interviews saying they wanted to go right at him but the Mav's use to hide him on defense.
@@jayraider521614 Before the Mavs acquired Dirk Nowitski in 1998 they were one of the worst franchises in not just the NBA, but all of pro sports.
Minnesota drafted Kevin Garnett, and the Mavs acquired Dirk at roughly the same time. The Mavs became the much better franchise precisely because Dirk was a superior Superstar player than KG, and easier to build and elite team around.
Kevin Garnett played with numerous All Star Caliber players in Minnesota. Kevin Garnett's skill set did not make his team, or teammates better players.
@@Damianoutlaw Again Not true Mav's had losing records Dirks first 2yrs until.....Mark Cuban!! bought the Franchise in 2k and wait who makes roster and coaching decisions...here's a hint, it's not 3rd yr Dirk. Ever watch the video of Cuban owning Skip Bayless regarding strategy on the court, it's great. Mark clearly knows what he's doing and would not screw the franchise over like the Wolves did with the Joe Smith fine and lose future draft picks! How many Allstars, MVP defensive POY & HOFers did Dirk play with Kidd, Nash, Finley, Jamison, Terry, Chandler how many did KG play with Sprewell um no, Marbury you can't be serious, Cassell really? you better not be refering to Wally Szerbiak. Just stop, Dirk doesn't even pass, whose he making better. KG Lead his team in every statistic, lead the league in rebounding, anchors the defense and still made the playoffs in a stacked western conference with no help! Dirks great but your homerism is absolutely obsurd!
@@jayraider521614 LMAO calm down there buddy........Mark Cuban doesn't shoot any hoops, or grab rebounds.
Dirk was the biggest reason for the Mavs success. Not Mark Cuban. Cuban has never been the coach or the General Manager of the Mavericks.
Kevin Garnett played with the following All Star players in Minnesota:
Terrel Brandon, Sam Cassell, Tom Gugliotta, Latrell Sprewell, Stephon Marbury and Wally Szerbiak.
Chauncey Billups leaves Minnesota and becomes the 2004 NBA Finals MVP.
KG played with just as much talent as Dirk and Garnett rewarded the T-Wolves by only being able to lead his team out of the first round one time.
KG won only two playoff series in 12 years (1995-2007).
playing in the Western Conference.
Garnett failed to make his teammates better players because he was NOT a dominant scorer in the post season.
The T-Wolves made it to the 2004 Western Conference Finals and were never heard from ever again showing that KG was not someone you could build a dominant post season team around.
udonis haslem also on that list though
Titles please... Completed NBA AND NATIONAL TEAM
@billsimmons is rarely wrong but he had Drexler on his never won a ring list. Drexler got a ring with Houston in 94-95
Bill Simmons is often times criminally wrong and never more wrong than with this gush video over Nowitzki.. he severely overrated Nowitzki... I didn't know I ever had to worry about watching a video like this. I didn't know such nonsense existed. Somehow I dodged it all these years .. I'm sad I found this video. Truly I am.
Bill, Udonis Haslem is also a member of the 15-year club. Just saying
Forwards as in small and power? If so that isn’t the list. Garnett, Malone, Dr. J?
He is better than all of them
It would be a crime if Dirk ever had to pay for a drink at a bar in Dallas
God dammit, Artest. You cost Reggie a spot in the 15 Year Club.
Bill Simmons is loco. Nowitzki avgd 20.7 ppg in his career in the meat of his career he avgd 24.1 ppg and 8.7 rpg... He was a glorified Kevin McHale .. a McHale type guy that a franchise actually believed in to try to win it all behind and it almost didnt work and it hardly worked... They loaded his teams up and they fell time and time again .. then Marion, Kidd, Terry, Chandler, Barea that was another deep team and they spanked (i watched happily) that worn down ass Kobe Lakers team... Kobe's Lakers teams weren't like sweeping Jordan's 1993 Bulls. Jordan's Bulls paused an 0-2 sweep coming, and then won 4 straight. The Jordan Bulls were surgeons with attention to detail and reversals of fortune, tie the tourniquet, adjust the competition, hone in on problem of the opponent, and attack the opponent at strength when tailed in to comfortable grasp.
The Kobe Lakers gave the fuck up, didnt have Pippen and Jordan but Artest World Peace and Kobe Bryant and Odom and Gasol a bunch of fairies okay. Fairies.
Bynum. Fairies. Straight up as compared to the Jordan's Bulls okay.
Okay.
Stop over exaggerating the 2011 title run.. they beat a tired self doubting, wanna be over with it Kobe dynasty attempting franchise. Go back to 04, Kobe was never Jordan.. Kobe is Mitch Richmond with alot of people caring about him.. The OKC Thunder was filled with babies. Babies that never won anything SPECIAL without each other either with oodles of other all stars and superstars and STILL have little to nothing whatsoever. Russell Westbrook thinks he is Charles Oakley with fans with their children standing at 5'7"... Westbrook has issues with large crowds. He has negra anxieties... Crip anxieties. Crippled anxieties... He was born with a talent and body his head could not develop enough into. Simple as that. Harden is Ginobili with no Duncan.. Durant is Anthony Davis..Big Tall can Ball 🏀 and doesnt know a Victory on his own.. Hes a big tall Chris Mullin. Soft.
The HeaTles. They were .500 in 4 Finals. Hardly unbeatable...
Stop over exaggerating the 2011 Mavs run.
The NBA was in transition we thought those teams were real good they weren't... They would have drowned even in 1996 NBA thru 1998... They would have drowned in 2016 NBA thru 2018... A bunch of softies competing waiting for the refs to decide fates.
I guess Udonis Haslem is joining the 15 club since he retired
tony parker and ginobili is also i the 15 year club
Parker played for Charlotte too.
Forgot Manu Ginobli in the 15 year club
top 15
Greatest Forwards Ever
1 Duncan
2 LeBron
3 Bird
4 Dr J
5 Karl Malone
6 Sir Charles
7 Gervin
8 Wilkins
9 Elgin Baylor
10 Bob Pettit
11 Durant
12 Nowitzki maybe
Dantley, Aguirre, English, Worthy are all worthy of taking 10-12 out of the top 10 and inserting themselves
I wouldn't put Dirk above KG but he's right behind him though at number 6 in PF's
6? So you have Duncan, Malone, KG and Barkley above him? Who is the 5th guy?
If Dirk is a top 20, he is 16-20.
Yea that’s how that works. If he was 12 he’d say top 15 or something.
@@limitedbom2206lol 😂
But yes he's not top 20 so he isn't 16-20... He's somewhere in the 40's-75
@@alecsanderhamilton9224 Not a chance in hell you actually believe that lol
@@limitedbom2206 maybe 20s to 30s upon looking back his playoff offense is up there with the bigger game guys and he had regular season consistency on offense to make his playoff big games more concretely the norm of his greatness ... But I will say his rebounding and defense is still too lackluster for me to consider past Barkley and Karl Malone, I have a tough time considering him higher than DWade, Dr. J as Simmons thinks HELL NO !!!!!!!!!!!!! NEVER !!!!!!!!!! Nick Wright doesn't do it and I don't particularly like Nick Wrights way of thinking basketball but he has my respect on Moses Malone and Dr. J respect.. Simmons dismisses Dr. J like he's sour Dr. J beat Bird 2x in 80 & 82.. Dr. J was exiting prime fast once Bird entered the league too dammit. Dr. J was great enough he had another league threatening the NBAs existence....
1 LeBron
2 Bird
3 Duncan
4 Durant
5 Nowitzki your all time forwards????
That's no respect for the past at all... No respect for the greatest forward era ever in the 80's... They had like 20 Small Forwards who could score 25 ppg at some point in the 80's.... Barkley could score 25 ppg grab 13-15 rebs not kidding unlike SHAQ... And dish out 5 assists and shoot 60% like a 7'2" 350 lbs behemoth and he could steal 2 possessions and block 2 shots a game at one point. He was a gangbuster all by himself at 6'4" 6'5" 6'6" whatever the legend is about his height it doesn't matter he was a big guards height or a normal shooting guard height and he wasn't a traditional forwards height and he typically found himself against 6'10" to 7 ft forwards like Sampson or Olajuwon, McHale, Bird etc... And he could play with everyone and block the centers shot and he kept that big play energy defensively even into his later years in Phoenix if not in Houston. Barkley had just IT in all departments for a long time before he got more rooted to the ground. And he stayed a rebound machine even as Rocket 🚀... He had tenacity of a bowling ball on a slick track. He was going to go where he pleased. He could magnetize 🧲🧭 himself to the ball. Chase down loose balls and tipdrill em his way, and run em down for fastbreaks etc. The man was a playmaker from Forward. Nowitzki was never at his peak as devastating as Barkley in his peak. Karl Malone again just did tougher things more easily. Nowitzki did get tougher and improve his numbers in postseason rebounding. But 10 rpg look great for his 8 rpg regular season norm..if he was Barkley or Malone or Olajuwon Ewing we'd destroy them.
Nowitzki made 3 conference Finals, he played in the very tough West at maybe their best most competitive era... He made 2 finals and won 1... He played with Nash, Finley and Bradley and Van Horn and Van EXEL and some good teams with players that made up a lot of his slack in other areas for him to focus and cash in on his greatest strength which was scoring. He became a tougher scorer as years progressed. He developed an unstoppable signature move. It was beautiful to use in videogames I rooted for the 06 Mavs and 11 Mavs more so 11 Mavs cuz I was conscious that Barkley and Malone didn't have rings so they were vulnerable to Duncan Garnett and Nowitzki pushing them out of the Best forwards or greatest power forwards list as time elapsed... But I don't think 1 the way Nowitzki survived to get his 1 makes him better than those two guys who I believe had the better threats to their championship dreams. Barkley missed some good 76ers teams cuz of a poor Moses Malone trade after an unfortunate Moses injury that handicapped Barkley's team in 86 to 88 as Barkley was reaching his prime post his rookie season. Barkley played tremendous in his first ECF in 85. But he got swiped by Bird, McHale and Parish with an aging Erving and Moses and Bobby Jones and then Moses never played another postseason with him. Barkley's best Sixers squads he ran into Bulls 🐂 buzzsaws with a hungry Jordan chasing the Pistons already and a class ahead of Barkley's Sixers. Barkley had Mahorn an enforcer, Gminski a sorta Wennington nice touch having big guy sweetheart at Center. He had Hersey Hawkins and Johnny Dawkins. I believe Dawkins ran into injuries by 91. Hawkins was nice but never won a championship with Charlotte or Seattle post Barkley either. He was kind of a Hornacek. A mid level Joe Dumars. Then 93-95 Barkley's Suns just can't stop a mission completing Jordan and 94-95, Hakeem and Houston literally escape two 7 game series instead of Phoenix. The Mavs routinely lost to Sacramento or San Antonio and they beat em a few times as well. They lost to Miami. They then really quieted down took a few lumps in postseason early like a Shawn Kemp and then he stole a ring from the HeaTles. Huge accomplishment. It was a long time coming and the HeaTles of all super duper teams to beat, that's the one to get got. It happened twice.
wait isn’t manu ginóbili in the 15 year club
Can't recall cheering for any team as much as I cheered for the 2011 Mavericks. Was so happy to see Dirk get that undisputable validation.
it's pronounced NO-VITZ-KEY. Some how throughout 20 years Americans have, like usual, made it their own. I guarantee you Dirk says the W as a V around his friends/family!
21 years now
KG one title. Dirk one title. And they’re on everyone’s mt rushmore. Simmons hates Weber, but if he gets the 2002 title is he with them rather than being dropped to a debatable HOFr and 80 in the Simmons pyramid?
Look how much credit they give lebron for winning on a stacked team in Cleveland against an injured GS Dirk should get the same credit for beating a super team with 3 first ballot hall of famers in their primes with no all star help
If you call that Cleveland team stacked you don't know anything about basketball. Besides LeBron and Kyrie everyone else barely did anything.
@@kingyami2294 go back and at least read the box scores since you didn't see the games
@@fullmetal1766 That team was far from spectacular, please stop.
Not just steph, klay too
I believe Duncan, Barkley and Malone all over Dirk and I like Dirk
I love Dirk (despite being a huge Steve Nash fan - those Suns played no D and would never get out of that West, with Dirk’s Mavs being one of many reasons) but #17 is a bit much for a no-defense, marginal-passing-skill dude with 1 ring.
Is this an overreaction to his incredible 2011 run? Perhaps.
He was a great scorer, consistent, and obviously clutch, easily the best shooting 7-footer ever, but Kevin Garnett, Kevin McHale, Dr. J, Steph, and maybe even Isiah were all better.
McHale definitely wasn’t better. Dude made 1 All-NBA team his entire career. KG is debatable.
Rest are all better than him besides maybe Thonas, but that doesn’t affect Dirk being too 20, because they’re all top 20 also (bar McHale)
@@hardwoodthought1213 Dirk was half the defender McHale was. Dirk was half the low post scorer McHale was.
Dirk Nowitzki: 3 Conference Finals appearances, 1 Conference Title and 1 ring.
Kevin McHale: 7 Conference Finals appearances, 5 Conference Titles and 3 rings.
@@hardwoodthought1213 KG is not debatable. Scoring aside, KG whoops Dirk any way you slice it.
@@margarinetaintedgreen8140 How many times was McHale the best player on his team? Listing conference finals as his own teams 2nd/3rd option on what planet makes him better than Dirk?
And scoring is far more important. Bar the 04 Pistons, name me one title team since 1980 who won without having a player being able to get you 30+ in AT KEAST 6/7 playoff games? Because KG had 7 30+ point playoff games his whole career, hence why without two other 20 POG scorers (04/08/10) KG couldn’t even get you out of round 1
@@hardwoodthought1213 I disagree that “scoring is far more important.”
KG is closer to Dirk in terms of scoring ability than Dirk is to KG’s defense, passing, and rebounding.
I’ll take the guy who can guard 1-5, receive 12 All-Defense selections (tied w/Kobe for #2 all-time - 9 of those 1st Team which ties him with Jordan, Kobe, & GP for #1 all-time) average 6 APG, 13.5 RPG and grab the most defensive rebounds in NBA history.
Dirk had Nellie, the #1 wins coach for 22 years (up until a few days ago when Pop passed him) and Steve Nash and Michael Finley.
In the Avery Johnson years, he had Josh Howard and Jason Terry, with Jerry Stackhouse off the bench.
Dirk wasn’t exactly “out there by himself.”
Dirk or kg who u got?
Dirk for sure
doesnt manu ginobili belong on that 15-year list?