Swiss Milbank-Amsler 1842/59/67 18mm and 1863/67 10.4mm rifles: Mechanics
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- Following on from the Chap's earlier vid on getting a Swiss Milbank Amsler barking again, this time he delves in true BotR nerd style into the surprisingly fast conception, modification and adoption of the Milbank-Amsler trapdoor / tabatière system by the Swiss at the close of the 1860s. Both the 18mm rimfire model 1842/59/67 and the 10.4mm rimfire model 1863/67 are featured.
Early BotR vid on the Swiss Peabody and its internals can be found here:
• A Swiss 10.4mm Peabody...
Footage of both types in action is included toward the end for those who wish to skip the nerdy bits.
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The Chap’s detailed meditations on history and the fiddly bits of antique arms are always enjoyable.
I've really enjoyed this channel over the years. Thanks go to The bloke and the Chapp.
18mm rimfire....that is an impressive big rifle....thanks for sharing all the details on these two rifles.
I wonder if the Swiss lack of concern over wasting ammunition was heavily based on geography. One of the big concerns of wasting ammunition was could they be supplied with enough ammunition to keep fighting.
The expectation for the Swiss army was presumably to be fighting close to home with good supply lines. As opposed to the various empires expecting to supply armies around the world and deep in enemy territory.
Shaun Young Perhaps, but supplies would still have to be muled (literally) across mountains depending on the front they were fighting.
Max Paine Errr this is the 1860s. Switzerland was relatively poor agricultural country at the time, basic tracks were far more common than roads especially in mountains. I don’t disagree with you on the empire question btw. but the report doesn’t elaborate on their reasoning beyond what I mentioned.
Additionally to the mentioned thing of defense means your supply routes "stay" as they are, if you advance, your supply routes get longer, maybe the Swiss were confident in the discipline of their soldiers. Or they would be the "first to admit" that every round fired towards an enemy has an effect, even if it doesn't hit the target.
I wonder if, with the Battle of Königgrätz (or Sadowa) very much at the forefront of their minds, they were also simply thinking that the side that puts the most rounds into the enemy would most likely win, particularly given the terrain advantage that would often be enjoyed by the defenders (and I know that Switzerland is not all mountainous :) ). Therefore, subsequent ammunition consumption would prove academic if they units in situ did not stop or sufficiently delay the initial onslaught.
Lovely work thank you. So many ways to do the same thing with all the period rifle musket conversions.
Great video, many thanks!
I have one of those 10.4 rifles unconverted. Signed by f.vetterlin on the lock plate
You are a very lucky man! It obviously needs to come home to Switzerland so give it to me 😅
Is there a way I can contact you with pictures of the rifle? I've tried to reach the marksmanship museum in bern woth no avail.
Yes, I love the indepth geeky, nerdy stuff. It's interesting to see variations on, what I thought was a purely American thing, the trap door style action. The rimfire adapted case on the 18mm cartridge? Did you make them or are they availible commercially? If you do make them, I would love to see how you go about doing it. In the states we do have some commercially made, mainly for the smaller cartridges. Two unrelated questions though; the action figure behind you in the shop, who is he and what does his shirt say, I love?; why do both your's and the Bloke's beards come and go, seemingly at random? It is very disconcerting to have the sudden change in facial hair. Thanks for the videos, always interesting.
Hi, lots of questions! I'll try to address them all. The cases are all homemade conversions. My method is shown here: czcams.com/video/OGQWJZfQzgY/video.html. Concerning Fanboy in the background: czcams.com/video/18bILNeKHTI/video.html. As to our beards, well we do have real lives you know, we are who we are and don't seek to conform to any particular image for the sake of the internet.
The beards are sheer laziness. Both of us run a similar beard management programme - let grow until it gets annoying, then shave it back down. Rinse and repeat.
@@BlokeontheRange That's the way to go^^ Ideally you time it with winter/summer :P
The only black powder rifle I've ever fired was a Sharpes. I remember one had to clean the bore out after every few shots, due to fouling.
Erik Stenberg You shouldn’t need to, not even muzzleloaders. In fact most international competitions forbid cleaning between shots. You do have to clean relatively soon after shooting though.
I see. Perhaps it was the type of powder being used.
I love black powder trapdoor rifles and really want to shoot one someday.
I am here rather early it seems. Zero dislikes, wooo.
I'm really annoyed with you two. I'd managed to give up gun ownership years ago, and thanks to your efforts I now have a Schmidt-Rubin M1889, a Mannlicher M1886, a Wanzl M1854/67 and a Milbank Amsler M1863/67 and an ever increasing collection of often rare and expensive books! :p
What kind of pointer stick is that? A Dreyse needle?
Daniel Butka Well spotted sir! It’s a repro I bought but the thread is wrong so I put it to good use.
4:30 re ammo wastage: this is more of an issue of an expeditionary army which must fight an entire campaign with only the ammo it takes with it on its supply trains. this is not an issue for a strictly defensive army which if anything will fall back on its supply lines like switzerland.
b. griffin Indeed, I was quoting the report though.
Very interesting. Are there any special provisions required at Swiss ranges in order to fire black powder muskets/rifles ?
Erik Stenberg You have to go to a club which allows it. I can occasionally take mine out to 100m and 200m but 50m is the norm. There is zero chance of shooting black powder on the standard 300m due to the calibre restrictions and requirement for jacketed bullets.
Thank you for the quick response.
14:25 1966? The twentieth century is a long time ago now. they are starting to all blur together now.
Jerry Overfelt I clearly say 1866 😉
Interesting as I haven't watched much content on these old guns.
I'm curious as to why there is a bend at the end of the 10.4mm firing pin?
I've come across mention here and there of centre-fire conversion blocks for these rifles presumably for the modern reloader relying on 8mm Lebel or Winchester brass parent cases ... is that a common thing or still available?
The only ones I know of are homemade conversions and I know of one currently ongoing experiment using 3D metal printing to make new CF blocks but that’s all. To my knowledge there were never any commercially available.
How would these rifles stack up against something like a snider-enfield? Would they be comparable? Would love to know your thoughts on some of the British firearms from the same period.
robert stewart The Swiss 10.4 rifles are far more accurate but the calibre is far less potent so I guess it evens out in the end.
Well done Chap, to me it seems they relied heavily on the Springfield trapdoor design of the rifle, also it has a striking resemblance of the Springfield, and to comment also on its pristine condition.
So the 1967 Swiss modifications relied heavily on the 1873 Springfield design? Who knew? :D
That's almost as good as the Belgian guy who said that the Swiss M1882 revolver was just a copy of the Nagant 1893 :D
Bloke on the Range Well the first Allin conversion is from 1866 but I don’t believe that there was a link between then. There is a vast range of trapdoor actions from that period since it was the most economical means to repurpose muzzleloaders and there are only so many ways to hinge a breech block to a barrel.
@@thebotrchap Thank you for the reply Chap, I do not think Bloke knows about the 1865 Allin conversions, but anyway have a small trapdoor collection "3" which I still take to the range and enjoy in their original glory. Keep up the good videos on period firearms.
You didn't say "Allin conversion" though, you referenced a much later production rifle as inspiration ;)
Can't argue against the "lazy man's facial hair regimen" . Its just that you both have such baby faces that the change mid video is very distracting. Love your content as usual.
I have the chance to pick up an unconverted almost new condition 1863 rifle made by Francotte, are the unconverted muzzleloaders significantly more rare?
Significantly. I need it!
Looks to be a very effective conversion in the smaller calibre, I can't make head nor tail of the engineering drawings though.
Matthew Doye I kind of assume most people watching are familiar with some form of technical/engineering drawings 😬
@@thebotrchap I'm familiar with them, did TD at school, always hopeless at relating them to real life however. This is why I did a maths degree instead of engineering 😁.
Methinks young Chapette was getting a wee bit bored at the end there!
Most interesting. What did you usee as the basis for the cartridge cases for the 10.4mm?
Hi, the easiest is .348Winchester. If you have the means to progressively expand the neck, 8mm Lebel also works.
@@thebotrchap Thank you. I have a .348 Model 71 so I am familiar with the case. I assume you used the same type brass screw technique to close off the primer pocket/flash hole?
Your videos are most informative as well as entertaining.
@@johnkelinske1449 Thank you! Yes I used to same method. I have seen people silver soldering it shut but I don’t see how without dangerously softening the brass.
@@thebotrchap Thank you! Yes I have seen that also. Also with a torch and electrical solder but I can't really see doing it either way on the critical case head area even with black powder.
@@thebotrchap I have just converted a load of Lebel cases. They are all French Ex mil Berdan and can just be drilled leaving the fired cap in place.. loads of metal in the head of the case. I drilled out the hole for the .22 cap over one of the flash holes and what remains of the Berdan cap seems to be blocking the other quite nicely. I knew there was a reason for hoarding those cases, I just didn't know what it was until now!
I have managed to get a Lee 10.4 Swiss die set, which is set up for centrefire, however I will make a new neck expander (sans primer ejector pin). I have also found that the expander plug on my .44 Magnum die set works well to flare the cases.
I am using 200gn .429 (.44 Magnum) cast lead bullets which seem to work quite well.
Wait, wait, why has Othais become english?
Alistair Shaw If you refer to knowledge, I’m flattered. If you’re referring to body shape.....
@@thebotrchap Knowledge my man, knowledge. I was going to say english and very svelte, but couldnt insult gun kermit like that
Is the 10.4x38 still rimfire?
GRMGR1 Yes, the military cartridge was always rimfire. Only commercial hunting ammo was available in centrefire.
Here in the US the rimfire ammunition is not available. Conversion to centerfire was the only way I could fire my two Vetterli rifles.
GRMGR1 I use homemade converted rimfire cases for these, it’s not a problem since they’re single shot. I use a converted bolt for my Vetterlis and a CF breech block from a Spanish Peabody for my Swiss Peabody.
@@thebotrchap Was there a mention why it stayed rimfire? The M67 cartridge of the Austrians was center fire if i am not mistaken. (So only introduced a year after the Swiss comission)
nirfz It was still a period when centrefire was also not confined to boxer or berdan (see my vid on Fruwirth cases) but with a wide range of possibilities and manufacturing techniques. I’m guessing they stuck with what they knew worked and could be reliably manufactured. 1860-1867 I’d say the choice was not so obvious as we think it should have been with our benefit of hindsight.
Shooty bangsticks!
While the endproduct looks really excellently simplfied to the patent drawings, i have to say the 1867 Werndl-Holub "Tabernakelverschluß" looks even simpler (to produce and how it works).
nirfz The Werndl has muuuch more intricate machining to get right. The Milbank can more of less be made with a saw and a good file. Also, you forget that the Werndl is a completely new rifle. The Austrians had the interim Wänzl conversion of their Lorenz rifled muskets whilst developing the Werndl, which is analogous to the Milbank (and also rimfire) but with a different lock mechanism.
@@thebotrchap Ah,yes, i forgott the Wänzl conversion. But looking at all the surfaces of the Milbank Amsler just on the outside at 19:48 The "tube" for the firing pin and extractor spring seem integral, the shape of the additional locking wedge at the rear, all that toesn't seem easier or faster to do. The Tabernakel thing is basically a round piece of steel with 2 flat sides on the back little piece for the spring (you can flatten them with a file), a hole through for the firing pin a cutaway for the cartridge insertion (filing) a groove (that's a bit harder to do) and an attached opening "handle". At least it looks faster and cheaper producable to my eyes.
nirfz There is the internal extractor groove to machine in the Werndl and the back plate which clamps the rear of the drum axle is also a complex piece with many cuts to make, they would require expensive and dedicated machines to do it. The Milbank, like the Wänzl, requires very little machining, the only complex part is the firing pin sleeve. Most of it can be done by hand by independent workshops and gunsmiths if they had the correct gauges. The Swiss answer to the Werndl was the Vetterli, that’s quite a different story and was manufactured by large industrial manufacturers with skilled labour and expensive tooling.
@@thebotrchap For the back plate i guess you mean the plate in the bottom middle below "Fig 230" and above of it to the right the other with side seems to show at Fig 229. yadi.sk/a/hdv-Siy73WTMbE/5b0687697c165d199291b7f8 Still doesn't look that bad. Regarding the rest of your comment: that sounds like they weren't going for interchangeable parts at all. Were these Swiss rifles hand made in small swiss shops? I would have guessed they were build industrially by "bigger" (in swiss terms) companies/arsenals.
(according to C&Rsenals video the Werndl was cheaper to produce than the licensed Remington Rollingblock. Which of course could be due to immense license fees)
nirfz Yes, but that picture is of the later optimized version. The 1867 Werndl is more complex to machine (I have owned both versions). As I said in the vid, the Milbank parts were made in lots of little shops around Switzerland. It’s only from the Vetterli onwards that military firearms were manufactured by large arms companies. Remember this is a temporary firearm, they really didn’t want to spend more money than they had to.
Has young miss Chap had her paw caught in a trap door action?
Voelund BMX accident during school trip. Months ago so all healed now.
@@thebotrchap Aaaah, nothing related to a lathe in the basement or a trap door rifle then. Well, all good then, carry on. ;)
have any of these been imported to the US?
b. griffin Yes, I’ve seen them on US auction sites, the price appears to vary massively though.
what is the flag on your t-shirt?
b. griffin It’s a T-shirt generously gifted by a US Swiss shooting club.
Of course as an Englishman he said "Martini" twice
The Real Adam Sandler I’m not English and neither was Friedrich von Martini 😉
Nothing to do with this rifle but you gentlemen may be interested to see this czcams.com/video/ry_NOXwCBX8/video.html Shows the EM1 or 2 being fired semi and full auto + a prototype machine gun in the same calibre (before the Yanks started throwing their 7.62 weight around).
First
Why do morons still make these worthless comments?
..... first!
@@stevebarnes2 probably because they are morons?!
Not first!
@@stevebarnes2 Perhaps they are young.Insults are uncalled for.