Swiss 1842 - 59 Rifled Musket
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- Switzerland was a bit late in the game when it came to universally adopting rifled longarms, and the path do to so was long and tortuous. We explore this journey and also the service cartridge. Once the 1859 modification was approved, the service life of the musket was short due to the arrival of a state-of-the-art 1863 infantry percussion rifle in 10.4mm, which itself was upgraded mid-production to breechloading using the Milbank-Amsler conversion from 1867, shortly before the introduction of the Vetterli.
For more info on the Milbank-Amsler, please see the vid below: • Swiss Milbank-Amsler 1...
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Really, the marvel of Switzerland is not that no one dares attack the Swiss because they would all shoot back better, it is that the Swiss don't shoot each other because this whole one-people-united thing is not half as old as one might think from the media.
What we used to do when shooting an Enfield rifled musket was to fire a few caps off half way through a string of thirteen shots. With the muzzle pointing down you would be surprised how much crud drops out. This helps to keep the nipple clear.
Certainly something to bear in mind!
My dear Monsieur le Chap, I must say this channel has really moved up in the world.
Not only do you have yet another cool Swiss martial arm to show us, not only do you
have a new lathe to make interesting tools and gadgets, but now you even have
a Powder Monkey!
Hi Chap,
I'm always impressed with the details you provide about all the history and aspects of the guns and ammunition you are educating us about. It's wonderful that you take the time and effort to share this information with your viewers. Great content for BOTR.
Nice to see the youngster taking an interest.
czcams.com/video/OFran84RXqo/video.html
Best use ever for a Yorkshire Tea box.
Not boring. Thanks for not deleting the screwball portion. I've never seen it done.
I am so glad my Patreon money that went for the lathe was so well used. I am happy to support content creation of this quality, THANK YOU.
It is indeed incredibly useful
@@thebotrchap get a mill soon, though files can be used as an alternative.
Swiss rifles as a whole are in such good condition. My 1911 long rifle looks as though it could be nearly new, while my M1 and 1903 springfield look as though they've been dragged behind a car for a few dozen miles on a dirt road.
Because Switzerland was never involved in the wars. I would hope their weapons would be in good condition.
Yeah, I get that
Wouldn't be Bloke on the Range if everything went as planned.
Eeeee best advert for Yorkshire tea yet. Eat your heart out Major Sharpe.
How regular an occurrence would a miss fire and pulling of the charge be?
Well done Chap, I really enjoy your black powder segments.
Glad you enjoy them!
Hey, here's an idea for some swag; how about a t - shirt that says:
"Official Bloke - on - the - Range Powder Monkey."
Very detailed and fun to watch this journey from the history over making the bullet and firing it. This video and the ones where you built a show and tell partial dummy mechanism and the range trips make this channel so great. The multi-lingual approach is another unique feature. Idk how difficult it is to meet up, but I think a lot of your subscribers would enjoy to see the both of you sit around a fire (winter is coming) and talking about a particular gun or topic you deem interesting. Depending on the topic you could make it a zoom thing with Ian and Karl maybe a few times a year? 100k Subs are right over that little hill. Have a wonderful weekend.
High praise indeed ❤️ Thank you!
Excellent choice of Tea, a well deserved brew Sir.
An object lesson on the old adage..."Keep yer powder dry!" I guess
Upon reflection I doubt that was the issue
@@thebotrchap Yes, I saw that but I have been dying to write that even if somewhat out of context.
The SWISS went to a SIMPLER lock plate? Wow. You'd expect a Swiss firearm to get more complex. Also, Yorkshire tea... Nice.
They compensated by requiring every gun to have a new breech portion though!
Always nice getting a Chap video!
Great video. This shows the advantage of the rather complicated multi-part P'53 cartridge design, because when you insert the empty cartridge with the bullet, you can simply knock the paper off with a sweep of your hand; no need to tear it off.
Certainly, although I’m not using cartridge paper which has a looser granular texture and is therefore easier to tear (iirc from art classes loooong ago). The requirement was also that the cartridge be easy to manufacture in the field, something which the complex P‘53 was less suited for. Also for the most part infantry was still loading and firing on command so the benefit of a fraction of a second of knock vs tear was probably not noticeable at least for line infantry.
@@thebotrchap Oh absolutely; a very minor advantage, but as an individual soldier it probably felt significant. Good point about cartridge paper, but note that period cartridge paper was not the same as what we now call cartridge paper. It was a super thin rag-based paper; still easier to tear though as you say.
Well done Chap.
Great video as we have come to expect. Keep up the good work.
Well that was a war with hardly any blood.
Thanks Chap and Mistress Chap for a great video. That screw, as I recall, is known in English as a worm. I have actually held a Milbank Amsler rifle with Bern marking.
I love your "ammo box" at the range! lol, that's awesome.
Nice one. Have fun with the carcano. Thinking about muzzleloaders now😬
Thanks for the „donation“ 😉
Excellent video, and thank you for sharing. I had a thought, it could have been the slightly smaller grain power that caused the misfire!
👍😎👍 can't wait for the next video.
That wouldn’t do anything, if fact finer powder is generally promotes ignition
@@thebotrchap hi thank you for the reply your probably right but I tried to imagine a cup of flour being poured in a kitchen funnel and comparing it to a fine sand, the sand would keep going through the funnel but the flour would most definitely block the funnel plus if indeed humidity was a factor as well which was suggested in the video that would have added to the problem same problem in the ignition chamber.
But again your probably correct. 👍
very nice and knowledgeable video
Your sidekick elicited a smile when he did the "oi" off screen. Video wasn't boring in the least, by the way. Brought back memories of taking Modern European Military History at university. If one is going to engage in a civil war, one could probably do far worse than Guillaume Dufour as commanding general.
As an aside - We also used to keep a very small flask of very fine powder (5f equivalent, I think?) for misfires. As you showed, remove the nipple, charge the bolster with a small quantity of the powder, reassemble, and hopefully (fingers crossed and backside set to maximum pucker) get positive ignition. Didn't happen often, but sometimes old, weak percussion caps were all we could get. Still, better than friction primers doing a Roman Candle in the breech vent of a cannon. You can always tell when it happens at reenactments, because you can hear the "sonofa-----" from the gun crew over the musket fire.
My sidekick is my daughter 😉
@@thebotrchap damn, I really need to get my glasses checked. My apologies.
An off topic comment..
Love the channel. Excellent content. You might want to check on your channel being shadow blocked. No BotR videos show up in my recommended videos below this one. Keep up the good work..!
Well for what we teach here at our club in germany: If you have a missfire no matter muzzle loader or cartridge always keep it pointed down range and wait.
Is that not what I said and did?
That rabbit is not camera shy. And armed to the teeth.
Splendid work Chap.Very thorough. I have added screen shots of the cartridge construction to my rifle musket file. Thank 'ee kindly young sir. Now I must away to the French version to extend my small arms French vocabulary. Was this cartridge form not first brought in by Francois Tamisier in France? Proper Yorkshire tea. Good Chap.
Tamisier is associated with the pillar breech system, I don’t know if he had any part in paper cartridge development. I would have thought that evolved naturally in ballistic testing during the transition from RB to conicals.
BotR shooting a muzzle loader? That's some good content.
Perhaps its been done before, but a cleaning guide could prove interesting.
Old rags, moose milk and good patch jags. There’s no more to it. Occasionally a bronze brush.
It's almost like a modern shotgun shell!
Thanks for this video and all the work you do, I learn so much every time I have the opportunity to watch. Could you clarify something on the conversion of the muskets from flintlock to caplock please? I am wondering about the existence of anything that was formerly flintlock and was upgraded to caplock to become a model " 18#?/42 " musket. Is there any sort of designation for such a rifle, or were the conversions simply a hodgepodge of flintlocks that were upgraded to caplock? I am specifically trying to find some information that can lead me to anything about rifles converted from flintlock to caplock that were later compatible with the Prélaz-Burnand system. Cheers!
Hi, yes indeed, like many countries Switzerland also converted flintlocks to the 1842 standard and beyond if the original barrel was still in good condition.
hi, to you blokes !!! this is a good video, i would like if you make a video on the Milbank rifle trapdoor, i wish you in advance thankyou ...
I would point out many guns were picked up after battle with multi shots loaded in the gun. In the hurdigurdy of a battle men didn’t know the gun didn’t shoot
The rifled musket for sure outraged the smoothie. And your shooting slow. I got to say I’ve found a flintlock faster to reload. I live near an American civil war battlefield, Wilson Creek, and note much of the fighting takes place well within smoothbore range.
I was much surprised by how much trouble you had pulling the ball.
I made no claim to shooting fast. For the bullet, bare in mind I’m pulling a tight fitting bullet up a dirty bore and against a vacuum since the flash channel is effectively plugged, hence why it went “pop” when I got it out. It would probably be easier with the gun clamped on a bench too. Not something you’d want to do in a hurry. I’m surprised they’re still fighting around your area 😉
@@thebotrchap I’m sorry I was not criticizing how you were shooting as you did a great job.
I was just adding a factoid😊. Many of the battles fought with riffled muskets took place at ranges where the increased accuracy of the rifle didn’t count too much, and the advantages of cap lock did make a gun that shot slower then flint
@@jeffreyrobinson3555 I question that reloading a smoothbore or rifled percussion gun is slower than a flint equivalent under battlefield conditions with cartridges proper cartridges. The only plausible exception I can think of would be the self-priming Austrian and Swedish muskets.
@@thebotrchap it’s the steps for loading that saves just a few seconds. Rip open bottom, prime pan shove cartridge down. Brits were required to do it every fifteen seconds and keep it up for that time for three minutes and forty five seconds.
Fifteen sets of fifteen seconds. In that time I watched Ted Spring, author of books on the seven years war, get twenty three shots off in that time.
They loaded a primed gun😳. The cap was safer as they loaded an unprimed gun. However had to dig the cap out of their cap box, leather bag on the belt, and prime. I have got off five shots with paper cartridge in a copy of a French trade gun cr 1740.
What is an original 1863 infanteriegewehr worth if I can even find one?
Anything upwards of 2000CHF here. Probably less outside Switzerland if they have no idea what it is.
Ist interessant you the Transformation of the 1842 to perkussion, i have one at Home but oddly, mine has no screw in Adaption
Very much enjoyed this video, and the small history lesson, as well. Only one question, though. In the heat of a battle, would the soldier really have taken the time to rip off the excess paper after starting the bullet, or would they simply have rammed the bullet down with the excess paper still attached, in pursuit of a bit more speed?
The process was standard across Europe, war was still a formalized process and soldiers would have been drilled to be automatons at it. Also remember that within a certain range it was the custom to bayonet fight rather than increase ROF.
@@thebotrchap, thank you for the reply. Makes sense.
Is the bullet mold you're using a commercially available pattern, or was it a custom job?
That particular one is no longer available due to the retirement of the (Danish) mould maker. Accurate Molds offers a number of good alternatives though although they don't make the base plug themselves.
Is that a Myford in the background?
When will I get a frenchie video from you chap ?
There´s next to no information about these out there.
Is that a Schweizer Nr.2 in the background ?
You’ll have to be more specific 😉
@@thebotrchap true !
I meant Mle 1822 and a little further down the line, i.e. rifled ones.
@@mikehoare1338 I’m working on getting a short rifled 1829tBis artillery carbine at the moment.
@@thebotrchap looking forward, don´t forget to explain why the hammer is so oddly shaped !
@@mikehoare1338 I shall be putting a thumb over it so conserve the precious powder though!
Hello Chap, I also have a Imfanteriegwehr 1859 at home and I need help to make the ammunition for the rifle. How did you made them?
Friendly regards Finn
I show how in the vid, if you pause at the right point you will even see the dimensions of the powder cup and outer wrap. For the bullet I think any .69” minié will do. I got my mould from Huntershouse in Denmark.
@@thebotrchap Thank you
what about the feldstutzer, mate ?
Did the French muzzleloaders of the time (1822T BIs, 1842T, 1853T) use inverted cartridges like the Swiss 1842/59? Or did it use separate ball while loading like the American Springfields?
They use the same basic pattern as the Swiss, only the powder tube extends up to the top of the cartridge tube.
@@thebotrchap were the French the first to use this cartridge design since they had the Minie first?
@@danielbutka8854 I’m afraid I don’t know if the two are specifically linked. There were other systems prior and parallel to the minié such as tamisier conicals and compression bullets in cartridge form.
@@danielbutka8854 The French adopted the Minié bullet only in 1854 for the Imperial Guard and in 1857 for the whole army. Early Minie balls of 1849, with an iron cup, proved to be unreliable compared to the Tamisier/Thouvenin system.
@@thebotrchap Thanks for the answer! I've been looking all over the internet for a week now about French muzzleloading minie cartridges and one question to the chap solves it all.
So the French used the reverse bullet not like the Americans with their Burton ball that has to be separately inserted right?
Cool. Ive never shot a muzzle loader. I notice how much time it takes to pull the ram rod turn it, push the projectile down, pull the rod out, turn it, and insert it back down into the rifle. It seems they might have come up with a quicker way of attaching the rod to the gun like a little pop in clamping system or something. I don't suppose they were really focused on rapid fire though.
Some (particularly cavalry) pistols and carbines had a swivel or chain to attach the ramrod to the gun, but the issue was to prevent losing it when reloading on a moving horse. You have to bear in mind that everyone has the same level of technology and it is still very much the era of formalized warfare with only skirmishers and scouts being free to load and fire at will. Line infantry was still loading and firing on command and would be drilling constantly to be far quicker than I was.
@@thebotrchap Good video eitherway. Thanks
stop hybrid go smog! (Just looking what's comming out after each shot 😃)
I'm prob going to be ragged on for this question but anyway... can wax paper ( cooking paper) be a useful option for making these cartridges? Already lubed and waterproof etc.
No ragging. Good idea in principle but a) Not enough and wrong type of wax and b) the paper itself is too brittle.
The Chap see, this is why it's worth asking! Thanks for the reply, carry on the good work.
Without touching sides( cheeky wink)..
Fnar fnar 😉
What sort of paper are you using there? Is it as crucial as it is for, say Enfield "Pritchett" cartridges?
Just standard printer paper. It’s not as complex as the Pritchett set up which is a work of art in comparison. It has to be easy to tear with teeth and greasy sweaty fingers.
I noticed that after firing you placed the hammer at half cock and removed the spent cap and then proceed to reload.. I was taught to leave the hammer down on the spent cap and reload with it in that position. After loading the powder and bullet is when the hammer is placed on half cock and the cap is replaced. The reason for doing it "my way" is to prevent ember that may be in the bore from interacting with the new podwer charge. Just a thought.
To each his own but I fail to see how leaving the hammer down will prevent embers in the bore 🤔 The ember will remain down there irrespective of the hammer position. I give a little puff down bore to make sure any embers finish burning and the flow of air down through the nipple helps that.
Can't huff if the nipple is blocked with a spent cap...
I'm pretty sure that when blackpowder ignites it doesn't leave any smouldering embers behind. I think that ember thing is a left over from the days of muzzle loading cannons which were loaded with bagged charges and the remnants of the calico bag could be smouldering in the breach after firing.
You probably also put grease on top of the cylinder of your cap & ball revolver to stop chain fires as well ? That's another myth.
@@Derecq The issue is that paper cartridges could also leave embers and breathing down keeps the fouling soft. So far breathing is free so a quick puff down bore can’t do any harm even if it seems to offend for some reason.
It would be intresting with a mad minut drill.
With a saw blade I poke some holes in the paper so it tears easily
It’s not in the period manual guv’nor, almost cheating that is!
He said baguette :)
That wabbit is wascally.
Lesson learned.
Always check your nipples........
Great video.
Nicely done.
Thanks !
It would be an amazing video if it's just the loading and shooting part
No shortcuts here, it’s all or nothing. You could of course just jump to those bits, no one’s forcing you to listen to my droning.
@@thebotrchap that's exactly what I did, love the cartridge making part, would love to see more musket like this
@@marlin2996 We’re still treading carefully with reloading and cartridge making since YT generally disapproves. I could show a lot more but dare not after being shut down once. It’s why I’ve shown it kind of indirectly here.
@@thebotrchap I see, tbh yt generally disapproves any gun related things, even gun shot sound can get your vid demonetized
That poor wabbit
cute kid you've got
It def did look like a booger lol
25:47 that might caused your blocked channels, you did blow in to the barrel. just a thought. The missfires started after that.
Nope, standard smoke pole range practice to make sure any embers are extinguished before loading a fresh charge especially using paper cartridges. If anything it clears blockages.
@@thebotrchap I respectfully disagree. I think The Spectator is right on this one. You blew powder residue back into the touch hole. It might be standard practice at your range, but I never blow the barrel out while shooting. It might be better to blow it out from the nipple side if you are going to do that. My personal method for clearing it is to do what you did the second time, try first to clear it with a small pick and then put some powder under the nipple. Might just be luck, but I've never had to pull a ball yet. I do keep a screw in my kit at the range though just in case. Also, 26:08, don't ever put your hand over the ramrod like that. An accidental discharge from a burning ember will shoot the ramrod through your hand. I think you know better since you did it right for all of the other loadings, just wanted to comment on it since it is a potential safety issue. Hope I'm not coming off as too critical because overall I did very much enjoy the video. I personally have several muzzle loaders, and the one I shoot most often is a pattern 1853 Enfield. I'm mostly familiar with procedures for American Civil War and Revolutionary War cartridges and loading. It's interesting to see how other folks did it back then. Thanks for creating and uploading the video and have a great day.
@@grumpyoldman7562 I blew down many times between shoots, I just didn’t show it in the vid.
@@thebotrchap Yep, I believe you. It won't always cause a misfire, I just think in this particular case it's what caused the misfire. When you put powder under the nipple, you blew out the obstruction and allowed it to fire. Anyway, just my opinion.
So funny, Switzerland, has not had a major war in almost two centuries. Why did they even develop anything that has to do with war? Hey Swiss! Why don’t you try fighting some terrorists or do something to help the EU? Although, I still love this channel! Keep at her boys!
I would suggest that you read up on Swiss history. Those same EU countries have historically had a bad habit of not respecting neutrality or threatening not to, hence neutrality has to be enforced. Neutrality doesn’t mean defenseless.
Why does your daughter think you are the 1991 Ballon D'Or winner?
She isn’t. She’s saying “papa”. I’ll let you google it 😉
@@thebotrchap I am not convinced. It is far more likely that you are hiding out in Switzerland, pretending to be a retired legendary Marseille striker.