Swedish m/1851 Navy Kammerlader
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2020
- The Chap explains the mechanics behind this curious rifle and gives a potted history of the concept more extensively used by the Norwegians. All this followed by a trip to the range to see how it performs.
Update: Since filming this it appears that the lastest dated rifle was 1864 despite transition to a new percussion rifle in 1855. It is still unknown if the rifles were issued beyond extended trials. My rifle is dated 1854.
Our thanks go out to the following contributors for allowing us to use their material:
John Klear (Hall rifle)
Dr. Stephen Wardlaw of ctmuzzleloaders.com (Löbnitz pistol)
armesfrancaises.free.fr (1831 wall gun)
digitaltmuseum.se (von Feilitzen revolver)
Anders Lindkvist of www.kurage.wordpress.com (Hagström rifle)
Patreon: / blokeontherange
Teespring: teespring.com/stores/bloke-on...
Facebook: / blokeontherange - Věda a technologie
The winner (again) in "Best Supporting Role of Arts and Crafts in a Feature YT Presentation".... Top shelf, Chap.
Thank you sir!
I think you both are quite exceptional. That is all!
Just to let you know Chap. I very much appreciate your “little” models. It really helps visualize the working of the action, especially for those who aren’t mechanically inclined (such as myself).
Thank you for showing the internals chap, really nice to see someone show and explain
1850 Phased Plasma Rifle with a 40 Watt range..... love it.
This video is loaded with era advanced alien weapon systems.
Outstanding.
This kind of content is why I continue to come back. I enjoy many types of firearms related videos, but this combination of historical perspective, detailed engineering explanation, and practical use hit all of the high spots of why I find firearms so fascinating. I especially enjoy seeing our hobby from a perspective that’s not stateside.
You sure put a lot of work into this video ! Great information ! Thank you for posting !
Very clever design. I'm impressed by the ideas they came up with in the 1800's.
I wonder if we could have gotten a flintlock version of this? I feel it would have been better than the complex Ferguson rifle.
The ergonomics of that action are nicely thought out, I bet with paper cartridges you could reload with one hand quite efficiently.
Shame about its fragility, otherwise there's a lot of interesting design work that's gone into it.
Aaah, there we go, and english version. Thanks! I've never seen this type of rifle and very cool. Thanks for sharing and quite interesting.
Outstanding. Best m1851 video on the tube. Thanks for the disassembly instructions. Never found any online. Despite living in sweden.
Jesper Perhaps ask around offline, I know someone in Sweden who picked up two (one intact +one sporterised) this week 😀
The documents should be part of public defence archives, either at the Defence academy, the Defence Materiel Works or the Royal Library archives.
Tedious to find, might be hard to read due to old spelling, grammar and font, but present.
SonsOfLorgar Øyvind Flatnes of Svartkrutt.net is investigating it for a new book, he’s far better qualified in the history of kmldr (and Swedish) than I am.
@@thebotrchap good, and as a Norwegian, he would probably have it easier than you to make sense of early 19th century Swedish army Bureaucratic XD
Very enjoyable video. Thanks a lot for putting this together and explaining the mechanism.
100k subs soon.
Thank you for the video. Loved the model.
Any chance of recreating the original paper cartridge?
If I knew what it was I’d try. There’s lots of info on the NO one but I don’t have any in the SE version. I’ve only even seen a vague sketch of the bullet.
I like the new workshop. Very nice.
My Norwegian M1860 Kammerlader also has a brass plate in the receiver section.
What a beautiful rifle, never seen anything like it
For the procurement process of the Swedish version, the records should be present in the historical archives of the defence forces administration, probably not digitalized, possibly on microfilm, probably tedious to locate as public declassified records.
The documents should be accessible through FMV or The Swedish Defence academy.
I hope one day I can acquire a Kammerlader. Definitely in my wish list, but they're so rare in the United States.
If you are still interested:
Holts Auctioneers
June 21,2021
Wolferton, U.K.
Lot 510: * A RARE 17.5mm PERCUSSION BREECH-LOADING SERVICE-RIFLE, MODEL 'NORWEGIAN KAMMERLADER', serial no. 2594,
Est: £800 - £1,200
£800 0 bids
You can bid online through a site called “Invaluable” FYI
@@milsurpmarine8628 appreciate the information!! I’ve zero clue on importing a gun into the United States... and would be mortified if I have to engrave import markings onto such a rare gun. I wonder if there’s special allowances considering the age of it?
What a cool rifle thanks for sharing
Thankyou Chap
Cap and Ball sent me here, he did great coverage on the ammunition, together very informative videos. Your see through model well worth the effort. I have a collection of Swedish Mausers and now will be looking for one of these fine and interesting rifles. Thanks
"This is not even a full lenght rifle"... looks like a war club!
The marvels of line infantry tactics.
In 1851 Norway and Sweden were one kingdom, under the Swedish crown. They did each have separate armies and parliaments, but foreign affairs were under Swedish control.
I did mention that, not the foreign affairs though as it wasn’t relevant to the topic.
The Chap Yes, I was watching as I commented. You got to that point just after I posted.
I finally know how to pronounce Dreyse. I'd been saying "drice" like a provincial rube.
Drrrr-eye-ssse
Chap with a Kammerlader? Smash that like button at 0:03!
Thank you for highlighting this intriguing and fascinating rifle. Looks like a bit better gas seal than a Hall carbine. (to my presbyopic and highly untrained eye, anyway) Crivens, you've prompted me to go read up on the subject! Madeira and old books, here I come...
Well a hall has no seal at all, as explained, due to the necessity to keep the chamber free even with fouling, there is a gap between chamber and barrel, just like a PB revolver has an appreciable cylinder gap for the same reason.
@@thebotrchap I appreciate the reply, Chap. I just realized I was mis-remembering (is that even a word?) something. I had conflated the Hall "gas seal" which you pointed out is non existent, with some of the attempts to use things like gutta-percha for obturation. I'm beggared if I can keep things straight these days; everything runs together. So much for a history degree, I suppose. Oh well, back to the books and Madeira.
There has been another Breechloading rifle in use: The Austrian M1770 Dragonerkarabiner System Crespi (flintlock breechloading). Has similarities with the one at 2:38, but the barrel and the breech are not vertically separated but in an forard angle (for easier opening and closing) And it had a lever across the top of the tilting breech to secure it in the downward position. (i guess the forward angle could have "convinced" it to open under pressure otherwise) It was used from May 1771 for some years with Austrian cavalry. Dargoons, Curassiers, Husars and "Chevauxlegers" (whatever that is) around 2350 Karabiner were purchased if i read it correctly. The review after using them in anger by the troops said that they are way faster to load than muzzle loading, and they "have a good punch" but that they are heavier than "normal" guns, and needed more repairs as well as that due to black powder fouling they got very hard to close after some shooting. Which was their main criticism. And they preferred the previous model the had (a non breechloader). I got that from a book of Austrian Arms until WW1 from the Mil history museum Vienna. It does not however, mention the part that is on the german wiki page that claims burnings of soldiers due to bad sealing. After seeing a picture i wonder how it would have burned them as the barrel-breech meeting would be way forward of their face and not near the hand either.
”Chevau-legér” (in its various spellings) is French and simply (and literally) means “light horse” and thus may encompass a variety of light/medium cavalry not specifically designated as, say, hussars, lancers, dragoons or whatever.
In Austria, the term seems to have been used as an alternate for dragoons, as some regiments were at various times “rebranded” as chevaulegers and dragoons while changing nothing but their name.
German Wikipedia has an article on what was later known as the k.u.k. Dragonerregiment “Fürst zu Windisch-Graetz Nr. 14, which illustrates the shifts in a Austrian designation, being known as chevauxlegers 1760-1798 and 1802-1851.
You can find similar discussions of designations of Austrian cavalry in Richard Bassett‘s Book on the Austrian/Austri-Hungarian army “For God and Kaiser”, though he is a bit (too) “happy clappy“ about his subject (probably “over correcting” the image of that army as a poor fighting force).
Oh my list was by no means comprehensive, it would take weeks to explore every small scale trials or accepted patterns of military breechloading guns prior to metallic cartridge guns. It was an extremely inventive period in firearms development.
@@DebatingWombat Thanks for the explanation!
@@thebotrchap Sorry i might have misunderstood it that way!
nirfz No problem, I mentioned the Ferguson only because it’s what most of the British/US will be familiar with due to it’s use in the war of independence.
Still going for the m1889 mad minute at some point?
I just became a "proud SUBSCRIBER" to your channel (9/17/2020)! Your "masterful" presentation won me over!!! Excellent job! You are quite the historian, reminding me of Mr B. Nemeth of his "Capandball" channel (he's Hungarian!). How amazing was the engineering of this great rifle. The Swedes & Norwegians were not as "dumb" as I thought (I married a full blooded Swede, born here in the U.S.A.)!!! But the Norwegians were better shots because they ate MORE LUTEFISK than the Swedes!! The Swedes hated them for that! YA! "Youmpin-by-yimminy"! How did the engineers get such fine tolerances & with what instruments? The "recoil" looked "substancial" to say the least!! You talked like a fine gentleman too, no "nasty words", & clear & concise, for an Englishman anyway! An extra helping of "tea & trumpets"(!) for your fine efforts. Glad you live in Switzerland too, rather than the UK!!! Think my mom had distant relatives from Solothurn. Do you like SWISS CHEESE?! The holes are the tastiest part! Sorry for being a "blabbermouth" too!! "Gesundheit"!!!!!
this has to be written by a 70 year old white man this is too elaborate to be a shitpost
The 0 dislikes really makes me want to be the first disliker... But not gonna do it, gonna upvote it.
This looks most satisfying to shoot. The recoil appears to be fairly hard compared to other early breech guns,is that a result of the length?
Shooting supported is not the best position for these. Off hand it’s no better or worse than any other percussion gun of the era. The fast underhammer lock is awesome though.
Neat. I have one made in 1858. Mine also shoots high, 6'o clock hold at 100m gets you kinda close.
Putting the cap on and closing it slowly with the hammer dropped works fine.
Relying on dropping a cap gently on a hammer is rather iffy, a bit like “just ease the hammer gently on that priBANG” 😅. I have since been informed that manufacture of these has been confirmed until at least 1864.
should do a Mad Minute!
I *want* that pepperbox! 10:50 How cool is that!?
0:39 aah yes, the king of sweden ;)
Have you seen Anvil's video on a Kammerlader he repaired for fellow You Tuber IV8888?
Where did the word " receiver" come from, I worked at a gunmakers in London and never heard this ever used. The word we used was "action". In British military small arms the word used was " body ".
Not always - it was often referred to as the "shoe" until into the Long Lee era.
Actually,when treated properly that is a very very accurate rifle. As for fouling have a shim cut out of brass or copper to fit in the recess of the barrel. You´ve got it right when it turns stiff to close the thing for the last 10mm or so.
Need be hollar,we´re producing the mold for the correct 625grain "spetskula". I´ll be happy to send you pics of the CNC cut unit,yes..made in Sweden.
Service charge btw was just short of 90 grains.
Most are indeed cut for paper cartridge,mine is not. This is a true 63 cal rifle and thus the chamber of mine measures 16,05mm. Most cartridge ones comes in at approx 16,3xmm.
As for accuracy,albeit a slow twist and what not this is a hole in hole rifle,used out to 1000m at competitions down mainland Europe in the day.
Look forward to a Swedish made vid on it,coming up...
Btw. WIth a roundball that chamber will take an easy 150 grains of powder at wish. Something to consider.
With the "spetskula" we´ve fired it more times than care to remember at 120+. The way to keep the stock from cracking is to really soak it with boiled linseed/turpentine as it makes it way more pliable.
Hi, thanks for all the info! Is there any chance we can get in touch to discuss this further? Either through our FB page or BOTR.contact@gmail.com. I’d like to know more about the cartridge and correct bullet. Thanks!
24:25. You have a Baker rifle?? I have not seen a video, why are you holding out on us??? Get bizzy Chap!
All in good time my good sir!
Dear Chap, does the action opening automatically cock the under-hammer? Or is that done manually before opening the action? Love your "little models" by the way, excellent descriptor. Warm regards, Angus
Hi Angus, Nope, the lock and chamber mechanism are independent. It’s a interesting idea which could probably be done but it would probably make the whole mechanism exceedingly stiff which wouldn’t be good for the already weak stock.
@@thebotrchap thank you for your rapid reply. So would the manual of arms be .... 1) cock 2) open breach 3) load chamber and cap cone 4) close chamber 5) give fire ..... yeah?
gussie88bunny Yes, loading would be with a paper cartridge, i.e tear open, pour in powder, shove cartridge and attached bullet down on top. The leather safety tab wasn’t used in action. I’m trying to find more info about the cartridge to try and reproduce it.
@@thebotrchap you're a legend ..... Bloke too. Please proceed.
I'm just curious why they didn't include a safety notch on the hammer, that wouldn't have cost really any more, and would have been faster/safer than fiddling with a leather strap.
A Dream of a Rifle. Nearly Impossible to find here in Austria
I was very surprised to find one here. It was amongst a collection of Swedish guns that a gunsmith had just received.
Damn, that’s cool
I remember watching someone use a kammerladder during on of the Alberta shoot videos britishmuzzloaders put up and finding it rather odd but clever, watching this I think that was a Norwegian one.
Yes it’s a Norwegian on. I remember discussing it on the bm forum when I still had my Norge one. In the end I found it far too long and bulky to use.
10 likes, excelente explicación!
This thing looks ridiculous. I want one.
Three bribes, two acts of blackmail, and one assassination so just your standard military procurement.
What do you use to repair the cracks in the stock?
Brownells acraglas kit. I’ve had it for years and it’s perfect for splits along the grain. It was also convenient that the damage was in the flat portions so it was easy to clamp during curing.
@@thebotrchap I'll check it out. Thanks.
@@thebotrchap As used by the marvellous Mark Novak. No finer recommendation seems to be needed.
These are very interesting rifles thank God you speak English cuz I don't understand Norwegian. I subscribed to your channel . What caliber are these rifles another mini balls
Swedish would be more appropriate 😉 The difficulty is that we don’t exactly know what the original projectile was. Minié? Compression bullet? Flat based conical? For the moment I’m just using RBs
@tacfoley Nope, what he shoots is flat based conical bullet actually intended for the Austrian Kammerbüsche which happens to fit but it isn’t the correct bullet, it’s actually closer to the Norwegian KL bullet. He even says so 😉 He does however show a drawing of the correct Swedish bullet and quote a few dimensions so I’m chasing him anyway in the hope that he has more details.
There was no "King of Norway" in 1837, because there was no NORWAY in 1837. From 1814 to 1905, there was only the "United Kingdoms of Sweden and Norway", and the king was, in 1837, Charles XIV John of Sweden.
By the same logic there's no "Queen of Scotland" cos there's only the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland... Cos since 1707 the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England have been one United Kingdom... :shrug:
@@BlokeontheRange Queen of Canada or Australia might be a (slightly) better analogy, since Norway was very reluctant to unify anything with Sweden during their union.
That is like saying that Texas doesn't exist since it is part of the USA.
Kammarladdare m/1851
The swedish one has a nasty habit of cracking due to the super thin wood arround the rear of the action.
That’s what I said 😉
@@thebotrchap it pays to watch every thing before commenting i guess 😅 you should also look up Larsen, hagen and the patent that krag stole for cartridge rifles with a similar locking feature. They even put levers on rolling blocks.
Pål Lien Scandinavian weapons design in that era is fantastic, they really didn’t hold back and tried everything.
Unfortunately with the youtube agorityms as they are, the more dislikes gives the video more attention and promotion, so it helps the channel more, a sad world we live in but i cannot bring myself to switch my like to a dislike.
@@thebotrchap then when you britts invented tanks, the yanks made aeroplanes into something useful, and the jerries showed what a submarine can really do, our weapon design engineers got all misty eyed and left everything with a smaller caliber than 40mm to foreign experts and went ham on the new shinies instead XD
how much did you pay for that contraption ?
Something like 800chf/usd
@@thebotrchap you wot mate !?!?!
That´s less than a fifth of what is asked for that piece of shit called Hall rifle/carbine !
We have to meet up once, and go shopping.......
Ye oldie ingenuity, innit.
Could you get the Kali-Key Gen 2 for your M16 and run a mad minute???
Wrong century my dear sir. We don’t deal with new fangled unholy smokeless toys here 🧐😁
@@thebotrchap I mean, while we're at it, let's see if 223 can be ran with black powder.
All Games We tried an SVT40 on BP years ago, IIRC it fired the first shot and seized up completely.
@@thebotrchap Well... that's not an AR. Maybe it'd fair better; I recommend using Winchester Triple Seven.
All Games Trust me, primer selection is the least of your worries 😂 Lovely bp gunk clogging everything from gas block to bolt innards is the problem. With the small powder capacity you might get a 2 or 3 off but then it’s a complete tear down and a days cleaning ahead 🧼
kammerlader (kammarladdare m/1851)
Where can I get cheap 303.
In the past.
Bloke on the Range I should have expected that
303 will chamber but won’t fine in this rifle I’m afraid 😉
I always wondered what are you doing for a living. My guess is some kind of engineering
Mechanical engineering background, working in patents in general mechanics, in particular horology, medtech...and firearms.
Thanks for the reply :) keep up the good work!
@@thebotrchap Well, if CZcams ever does go full genocide on guns, a watch channel should still be safe for your talent!
720p ?
Higher Res takes longer to upload. It often happens in stages.
Come back in a few hours and the rest might be there.
Funny you should mention this as i have noticed the video uploads in the last week have had a lower resolution, across the board, I suspected CZcams of lowering the quality of there service on certain creators. Or as they are trying to sell us a premium service and it was a subtle way of differentiating the two, but this is supposition on my part.
@@DavidLee-yu7yz
Could be. They're messing all the time with gun related channels or anyone else that isn't as easy to use as adspace. To be fair...the video could use better lighting and just having a higher resolution isn't that helpful either. I guess it's more apparent if you watch it on your TV. It's okay on a computer screen.
Eric is jealous
Yup, I am. Oh... a different guy?
Decree from the ”king of Norway” 1837 😂 that would be the king of Sweden... Norway and Sweden was in a union back than with the same king
I assume you continued watching until I said that later 😉
Btw why did the decree not apply to Sweden? Did parliamentary independence allow them to ignore it?
@@thebotrchap Kind of, yeah. About the only thing the union between Sweden and Norway meant was having the same king who (somewhat) controlled foreign policy. Army matters were for some reason not considered foreign policy. Thus the King's decrees in army matters had to be separate for each nation. And, as in most nations, rifle acquisition was a matter for the King's governement, not the King himself. This decree is thus actually the King's ([norwegian] government's) decree.
Given Name Surname I guess it makes sense that if at the time the Kingdom(s) had no expansionist ambition, armaments didn’t fall under foreign policy 🤔
@@thebotrchap Well, King Karl XIV Johan issued a general declaration of neutrality in case of any possible war in 1834 for both countries, so it seems safe to say there wasn't much of expansionist ambitions at that time. The neutrality held up well past the service time of this rifle too. Longer than the union even.
Love the video, btw.
Given Name Surname Thanks 😊
Assurdo
Este tipo habla mas que el difunto de Chávez.
This guy talks more than the deceased Chavez.
Этот парень говорит больше, чем покойный
Not sure how this is better than a rifled musket other loading while lying down. Seems like it would be harder to load in battle
It’s quicker to load in any position, no need to ram the charge, bullet can be oversized to engage rifling (system pre-dates minié era).
@@thebotrchap of the ones that were used with bullets, many used a cup or hollow based bullet (like what we see with early cartridge converted rifle-muskets) to ensure the rifling was fully engaged. @Just My Name , loading is faster, because all you do is open the breech, stick a nitrated cartridge in , cap and close the breech, it's much faster, and you don't even have to worry about spilling powder or anything.
Man show the damn gun while you talk come on man