Lee Carbine: Gunmaking is not for the Faint of Heart
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- čas přidán 15. 04. 2019
- James Paris Lee is known today as the inventor of the detachable box magazine, and the “Lee” in the “Lee Enfield” rifle system - a very significant contributor to firearms development. His first foray into the business of gun design and manufacture, however, was a rather ignominious failure.
Lee patented a single shot swinging barrel system in 1862, and hoped to win an Army contract for it. In February of 1864 he submitted a rifle version to the Army, and was promptly rejected - the Army was not interested in breechloading rifles. Lee came right back in April 1864 with a carbine pattern, and this was accepted for testing - the Army was indeed looking for breechloading cavalry carbines. It took a full year, but in April 1865 the Army came back and gave Lee a contract for 1,000 carbines at $18 each. Lee rounded up investors and capital, and created the Lee Fire Arms Company in Milwaukee to produce the guns. His first two samples were delivered in January 1866 - in .42 rimfire caliber.
At this point, there is some disagreement. Lee claims that his sample guns in .42 caliber were accepted, and thus his followup delivery of .42 caliber carbines should have been accepted. The government said that the contract specified .44 rimfire caliber, and his delivery of .42 caliber guns was unacceptable, and thus rejected. A court case would ensue, but with the rejection of the first 250 guns and the cancellation of their contract, the company had to look hard and fast for a backup plan. In March 1867 newspaper ads were placed in Milwaukee for sporting rifles and carbines from the Lee company. The parts planned for military production were used instead for civilian guns in a variety of configurations - carbines, light rifles, and heavy rifles in several barrel lengths and several calibers. By 1868 all production had ceased, and the Lee Fire Arms Company dissolved.
James Lee returned to his former profession of watchmaking, but this experience with gun manufacturing would not keep him deterred for long. By 1872 he was back working with Remington, and would go on the produce the designs that we know him for today. The lessons of this rifle? Firearms manufacturing is a risky business, not for the faint of heart. And also, sometimes you can learn from a difficult experience to do better the second time.
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Lee: Hello Mr. Army Man, would you like to buy my rifle?
Mr. Army Man: No, I don't want a rifle.
Lee: But it's not a rifle, it's a carbine.
Mr. Army Man: Oh, I want a carbine.
Lmao true.
The Military works in strange ways
How bout little rifle?
Ok
"Sorry, all we need now are single shot high power pistols."
"Hm...
I'll be back."
Some time later
Lee: Here are those guns you ordered.
Mr. Army Man: I don't want them no more. The war's over!
Lee: But the contract is still valid.
Mr. Army Man: No, it's not because... um... it's wrong calibre.
Lee: What do you mean? These are .42 rimfire, just like you said.
Mr. Army Man: Yeah, but I meant .44
Lee: ...
Mr. Army Man: Don't worry. I can give you the address of the guy who's also selling all our surplus guns.
"This was not a sufficient taste of getting completely screwed by the gun industry." Oof. That one hurt in the soul.
wasn't the gun industry that screwed him over, was the government
And governments are a huge part of the gun industry.
It was the gun industry, because he left guns, went to watchmaking, then returned to guns.
@@Mrfrenchdeux a lot of guns back then we're designed by dentists
@@Lizardboythelazy J st( b [%=[plo
That is a really no frills look. I actually kind of like how minimalist it is.
It's quite elegant in its simplicity. I've always had a bit of a soft spot for single-shot break-open action rifles like this one precisely because they are so simple.
Ikr I would love one in 40s&w
A stick that goes bang. All you really need.
@@willbecker5632 I would want one in 45-70.
@@willbecker5632 357 would be better.
Good to know “milspec” isn’t a new trend.
almost all guns started as military or for royalty at first nowadays they make more for civilians than military cause the military is usually slow to adopt newer guns and usually just modernise what they have until they think its not good enough anymore or it actually isnt good enough anymore
I wonder who sat down and thought... We need 300 and 500 yard sight options on our .42 rimfire carbine.
Manual should have an all caps saying *Git Gud*
That’s the government for you
Most early sight zeroes were, shall we say, "optimistic"
Uh .44 rimfire carbine, we agreed on .44 not .42, totally different ballistics. /s
@@arya31ful I don't even think you can see 1 km
I'm getting cynical enough that I'm wondering whether the 'mix up' was deliberate on the part of the gov't so they could throw the contract.
Highly likely.
Of course!
@@justforever96 I'm not saying that this was some convoluted plan from the start to screw one man over. That would be ridiculous, as you pointed out.
I'm guessing that you haven't seen many of these videos on guns bought during the tail end of the Civil War, or indeed the World Wars later, because what tended to happen was that when the war abruptly ended, the government's priorities overnight shift from "write every gunmaker in the country a blank cheque because we need every single gun we can get" to "drop military spending to the absolute minimum, we need to spend our money on rebuilding a shattered country."
The problem is, a lot of the gunmakers took out massive loans to make the guns the government wanted, and would go bankrupt if the government suddenly refused to pay, and not being idiots put clauses in their contracts stipulating that the government _had_ to buy the guns even if they changed their minds - _unless_ the guns were turned down due to manufacturer error. If you're an honourable goverment official you buy the guns you don't want anymore. If you're a scumbag you lie, say the factory made a mistake, and use that as an excuse to walk away from the contract, leaving private citizens penniless and destitute.
This isn't a hypothetical, this really happened. Multiple times. I'm suggesting that something like that is what happened here.
@@justforever96 my man they entered the contract during the war, not knowing how long it'll last. Its the equivalent of not paying student loans because you decided to drop out
Really love the camera panning over the sight picture! To me its the most interesting look at a firearm! Please keep doing them!
It seems with many of these firearms timing is everything. If Lee had this design ready for mass production (in the right caliber) in 1862 the government would probably have bought them like hot cakes. It's a really good design for an early war single shot cavalry carbine. By 1865 the war's ending, the government market's drying up and practical repeaters are on the market. It looks to be a very good little carbine.
I'm not saying it's easy to do, but the real need is not what the customer asks for initially. That is what they need now. You need to think ahead to what they will need when you put the thing into action.
@@tamlandipper29Definitely. The Lee carbine appears to be a well designed, well made, efficient single shot carbine, but there's nothing significantly better about it than some of the single shot, breech loading carbines already in use.
It's awfully convenient for the government to claim they're the wrong caliber once they no longer need guns. >__>
They should have been chambered for the Spencer cartridge.
@@charlesinglin it appears to take a metallic cartridge which a lot of guns then did not.
I find it pretty interesting that he was selling these for $18 and nearly a century later the Whitney Wolverine was being sold by its manufacturer for just over $18 per unit.
That is a very nice looking and elegant carbine.
Rifle. Oh wait...
I hate that copyright is a thing and i cant buy a brand new 2020 model of this gun cause its just nice
@@bovess8654 realistically someone could probably make a replica nowadays and noone would say anything
@@michaelf.2449 the Italians do it
That carbine bears a strong resemblance to an H&R single shot shotgun.
Same thought! This is much cooler with the side slide out
Yes! just about every store brand single shot shotgun in the US
And the Eclipse Vest Pocket Pistol. Same time period and same action in derringer size
Awww... it's like a gun but smaller
Looks like a daisy bb gun
@wesleythomasm not really. It's a rifle that fires an intermediate cartridge. So not a full powered like 308 or 7.62x54 but something like 5.56 or 7.62x39. A carbine that shoots pistol rounds is specifically a pistol caliber carbine.
@@crossfox1991 Mosin m44, Lee Enfield no5 mk1 jungle carbine, Karabiner 98K. All carbines none are in intermediate cartridges. Carbines are short barrelled rifles typically made for people who need a rifle but not the standard long rifle.
Its a miniature gun, a mini gun if you will
@@augustopinochet2495 ikr
Never do business with the government without an iron clad contract specifying WHAT you are supposed to do.
Lee didn’t read the contract. They told him that they wanted the gun, he didn’t read the specifics that required a caliber change. It’s happened quite a few times over the years, usually something little that they didn’t catch in the contract.
@@adamr9215 Far more likely they changed what they wanted later to get the contract tossed because they no longer needed or had the money for those rifles.
So not only did the Government low ball the guy from $18 a gun to $10 they even screwed him big time in the end. Sounds completely normal.
"The 9 most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" -Ronald Reagan
@@StarHunter28 Mr. Reagan was correct.
And they say the government wastes money... Seems like they drove a hard bargain
@@AlexBobowski Seems like they had a fair bargain until the war ended then decided "the hell we need these guns for screw Lee"
So.. what's $18 translate to in today's money?
Now i feel like buying a daisy bb gun...this thing looks like the inspiration
I still have mine from 1956. It probably was based on it.
I hope you guys don't mean the lever action daisy... That is clearly based on a Lever action Repeating rifle
You'll shoot your eye out captain!
christian lockard Please stop. It’s a lever action version of this.
GYPSY KING FURY Yes, it is. Grab a Daisy and compare it to this rifle. They’re almost identical.
That design, in a modern caliber, might just sell even today on the civilian market. I'd be interested for sure.
Yes you could beef it up for a 50 BMG I would by one
@@MM-gm2yk lol when ur cartridge is bigger then ur barrel it's a true American gun
Henry makes some nice ones.
t s Henry’s offerings are irrelevant by way of ridiculous prices. Half the appeal of this is robust, lightweight, and handy, the other half of the appeal is that it’s cheap.
John Cosper i feel like for about 200-250 bucks in some older and newer calibers would sell well. Examples being 45-70 , 223/556 300 blackout 450 bushmaster hell even a higher end version in 50 beauwolf. Granted I know nothing about the economics of gun making but it seems like a good idea
That rifle is stunning in both its sleek minimalist look and its simplicity. I absolutely love it.
I've got a hard-on for single shot firearms though, so I may be biased.
Hey this one really bring back memories! I had a good friend who had one of these, and brazed/fitted a 32 rim fire barrel in it, back when Navy arms used to make/sell that ammo. No idea what it was like in 42 rimfire, but in the aformentioned .32 RF, it was quite fun!
Damn, I wish I'd live in America, just so i could buy some of these beatiful creations.
You better have a good job to pay for them though.
Can you find a Chinese Type 79 SMG to do a video on? There aren't many videos on them, but they're a gas-operated rotating bolt Chinese submachinegun in 7.62 Tokarev that looks a lot like a Type-56 rifle in a pistol cartridge. In fact you've already done a video on this gun's successor, the CS/LS2 bullpup submachinegun.
Some Chinese police units still use modernized versions too, and they look kind of similar to the Russian Vityaz-SN however the Russians made theirs straight blowback. It would be interesting to compare the bolts from a Type 79 SMG to a Type 56 AK seeing as how they're both rotating bolts. However seeing as it's still in second line service it might be difficult to find one to take a look at.
Ian needs a trip to china lol
Chinese viewer here. 79 is known to be a very crappy SMG in china. but since there were so many of them produced (millions of) so it remained. Even though it is the standard issue SMG, police department of many places had to buy MP5/MP7 with their own pocket because 79 is intolerably bad. Fire rate is too high, not reliable (the designer used the rotating bolt design straight from AK which is suitable for the pointing nose of rifle bullet, but not working well with the round nose 7.62x25, causing stuck), the select fire unit is bad so it sometimes fire two bullet at semi-auto mode with one trigger pull, there are also lots of ergonomic problems (e.g. the charging handle is on the right side, and because of the machinery, the charging handle is very sharp and edgy, caused few incidents of injury, the magazine could be inserted backward etc.), and the drop safe is also bad.
ian needs to do a video of the Firelance(The ancestors of all firearms) or the first hand cannon excavated (Heilongjiang hand cannon).
@@Not-Just-Cars Ian needs to do a video on an automatic crossbow. I hear some guy called Edgar has one. So Ian should start there.
Thank you Gun Jesus for another baptism in gun knowledge. Your knowledge runs deep and extensive. For I am humbled as you share it with us, the lowly masses. Praise be to thee.
You sir are very good at what you do .....Thanks..!
Great story Ian an thanks for the history an knowledge about the Lee Carbine.
A hunting shotgun like this would sell well, specially when group hunting you usually have to break your gun when walking and this seem very practical for that
Your beard is getting long man! Looks good. What a fool piece of history. My favorite thing about this channel is seeing all these little slivers of firearms history. Thanks for making these!
Thank you , Ian .
Interesting and svelte design. Thanks Ian!
A nice basic little vintage carbine, I really liked style of rear flip-up sight for whatever reason.
Thanks for the vid sir.👍🏼👍🏼🖖🏼
Wonderfully simple.
Awesome thanks
I have a 45-70 Remington Lee... it's a great rifle and the receiver is almost the same as the lee enfield no1
Imagine how screwed the British military would be during WWI if Lee fully gave up the dream
Not really, the internal magazine would be available. We always take what works best for us. Imagine mausers being used by both sides. That's way more interesting
Someone else would have stepped up to the floorplate
@@howardchambers9679 or who says that the British would buy those? Maybe they’d buy some fuckin Winchesters like the Russians? THAT would be badass. Winchester with a Webley ON HORSEBACK!!
Near the end, I feel you were making some subtle encouragement to the Hudson guys.
The action on this rifle is nice and clean. As a collectable it must be worth a few bucks. Pretty remarkable designer.
This has got to be a record for fewest moving parts on a cartridge based firearm.
These are very handy little carbines, I have seen and handled one.
Wasn't Brown "Southerner" Deringer based on this system? Yes, they opened to the left and the locking system was little different but otherwise very similar.
Yes this is great info. My Grandpa was a collector and since I was little grandpa said I always wanted to see how all the guns worked. He said I gravitated towards his Lee because of the way it opened. He said he asked me once if I would like it and he told me that I said I only have my BB gun to trade and I like my BB gun. Don’t you like your gun? Why don’t you want it anymore. I don’t remember that as I was too little. He just passed and Grandma told us grandpa only wish was that the guns go to me. My brother and cousins I’m guessing aren’t happy.
I appreciate the history lesson on this gun. I have it now with a handful of others and boy I still reach for the Lee because of how simple and elegant it is. I must have the heavy barrel version because it’s a beast. I don’t know how to send a pic on this, but I’ll try and get it to Ian to share if he’s interested.
Thanks
Holy shit, someone from outside the state pronounced "Milwaukee" right! Proud of you, Ian
Come to Oregon and you'll hear it pronounced right as well. At least in the Portland area. The real question is would Oregon be pronounced correctly outside the NW region. ;)
I’m from Pennsylvania and I’m unsure how else you’d pronounce it?
@@mitchelloughman8382 "Mee-wok-ee" and "Mill-wall-key" are ones I've heard pretty often.
@@Celebmacil they spelled Milwaukee wrong out there in Oregon
I love this channel
Tell you what Ian, putting some slight click bait in the title, or maybe I should call it a longer description, made me want to watch this more. Love your content man. (Diversify, we want more!)
We might end up full of clickbait driven trolls.
Hello Ian,Another fascinating review.The French 1854 Mousqueton Gastinne-Renette, chambering a centre-fire 12.5 mm Pottet cartridge also featured a pivoting barrel for issue to the Cent-Garde Squadron.It was rejected due to not being a suitable arm for military use. The sword-lance bayonet which was 1,000 mm long made for an unwieldy combination.RegardsG and L A-R-West FHBSA
Thanks...
a beautiful gun indeed!
I wonder why this isn't or wasn't a more popular system, the break open system for shotguns is known to break at the hinge. This seems a lot stronger.
The Lee looks quite a bit like the .50 cal Maynard carbine I had. It was a pretty good shooter at 100 yards.
Hey! Milwaukee was mentioned in something that wasn't awful!
What a great idea
Makes sense breech loader for the cavalry easy to operate one-handed and small
The reloading mechanism is remarkably similar to the Ashot shotgun from the Metro 2030 series of games. I wonder if it was coincidence or if the creators knew about this.
Looks mysteriously like my old break action 410. shotgun !
How much work would it have taken to make the ejection automatic using the swiveling open and mechanical linkages?
That is a nice looking gun.
Awesome I like it.
A modern variant in 357 or 44 magnum with a price under $200 after tax would be awesome
What a beautiful, simple little carbine. I want one in 357.
I want one also. Any caliber will do.
My dad had two six barrel 22. Caliber single shot rifles. He referred to them as Flobert, French pronounced. My mom got rid of them after he passed away. Who actually made them. I remember being 6 yrs. Old and shooting it. Circa 1953.
Flobert was an actual gun manufacturer, made parlor guns in the late 19th and early 20th century
This is what a no frills firearm looks like....and looks pretty good
Nice
What about Peabody rifles? Weren't they fairly common in the late 19th century, aren't they forgotten weapons?
Oh, yeah...guess we *forgot* about them.
Neat little carbine .
To me that Rifle is so Gorgeous
Oh, i like this one ... simple and direct :3
What would have been counted as great sales-numbers for a gun back than? 100? 1000? Or more?
... Woah, this is practically a Pipegun, M8. Gotta love these simple designs that make ya go "Wait, that's it?".
Even the most thick-skulled jarhead would have a hard time breaking something this simple, eh? >)X^D
You haven't hung out with enough joes lol
Why pick on a jarhead, a sailor has a thicker head, and the army think cotton is bulletproof.
Maybe, maybe not.
Bend the barrel.
Get it shot in action.
Hit something with the buttstock.
Leave it out in humid conditions and don't oil it.
Simple workings can translate to reliability - but everything breaks. The trick is to make it easy to repair.
I wish I had the chedder to add that to my collection man
Is there no issue with trying to fire this from a bouncing horse and as the hammer is falling there is a spot where the barrel can swing slightly out of battery? Maybe enough to miss your target or jam and not fire?
Just bought a .32 red jacket revolver made by lee arms, had no idea it was this lee until i bought it and got the paperwork
Hey Ian you should have shouldered it to show its size looks tiny ?
Ayyy this was made in Milwaukee! I go to school there :)
Should make a playlist of strange and unique guns also amazing content enjoying the videos
Simple and elegant! Ring on left side, It's cavalry rifle?
I would buy one now
I hope Ian one day finds some of the more rare but accepted carbines that were used in the war like the metropolitan or the Merrill
The Lee Carbine seems difficult to use for a right-handed person since it swivels open to the right. Why is this? Was it cavalry doctrine or something? If it was to keep the sling away from the action, why not just reposition the sling ring? I'm sure there had to be a good reason for this. Was it something to do with holding on to the reins of the horse while reloading?
could you ever do a video on the cristobal carbine?
I have a question.
Why do serial numbers so often don't start at 1? It's mostly the case that they start anywhere in the thousands. Good example is like in the video, the Lee carbine.
So if anybody know the answer, I would be pleased if you could answer.
that looks like it'd make a great first firearm, for a kid showing interest in learning to shoot.
i see that others have picked up on the "heavy" hudson wink wink wink
I love it. The swing open is nice for the time.
BTW, at the time of the contract, was making a carbine much cheaper than making full sized rifles?
therugburnz less material. Had to have been cheaper I would think
With a carbine you have to make a shorter barrel, thus leading to a shorter rifling to make, that's cheaper than a rifle. How much cheaper I do not know though
I used to run a gun drill but never a rifling machine,
but just wondered about manufacturing in war time in particular. One side has one advantage like access to quality steel, the other has access to textile trades and slave labor. Both have political contacts. Shite I'm out of my understanding now.
Thanx buddy,
God Bless America, Long Live the Republic
how accurate would this be? since it is locking on the hammer I imagine that there is bound to be atleast alittle play in the locking.. and just a small amount out right at the breach could make a noticeable difference at range right?
A tight lock up does matter but I don't think a little play there would make much difference, both sights are fixed on the barrel so that play wouldn't effect the alignment of the barrel to the sights . I also don't think that would wear much anyway. I think the main pressure would be more on that big horizontal slot, which seems to have lots of bearing surface to absorb the pressure, but we'll probably never really know for sure. ;)
Man, i wanna dip my toe in the gun industry. Any advices or warnings? beside read the contracts carefully that is.
so how did they convert those .42 cal barrels into those other calibers?
Awww. It's so cute.
Yay
James Paris Lee, born Scotland ..... raised in Ontario Canada...... died in the U.S
That would be handy as a smooth bore in .410 for pests.
Interesting
It reminds me of a .22 cricket. Its so small
Didn't Colt produce a .41 rimfire derringer with exactly the same swing-out barrel arrangement?
Who invented the Lee straightpull, 6mm, US Navy ?
$10k - $15k estimate price!
What a beautifully simply rifle, is there a modern equivalent? Perfect for camping!
Yash..yash...yash... Lovin it
Also... Ian dude, u need some sleep
Not a bad first try. Thanks
Why does anyone give these videos a thumbs-down? Are the videos offensive? Inaccurate? Ian’s competition? Ex girlfriends?
Please enlighten me
Some people just want to be dicks
That action looks like a Garcia Bronco action
I guess that it wount be any shooting video on this one.
Looks like a big version of the Ashot in the metro trilogy
Some of the best designs are simple