M1854 Lorenz Rifle-Musket Cartridges: History, Development, and Shooting
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- čas přidán 11. 02. 2024
- Only Paper Cartridges can talk for more than an hour about musket cartridges and bullets for the iconic M1854 Lorenz rifle-musket.
We cover the historic context and background of the ammunition developed for the Austrian Empire’s excellent rifle. Compression bullets, expanding bullets, Lorenz and Wilkinson and Podewils, and even old sheep grease… if you ever want to know anything about Lorenz cartridges, it’s probably discussed in this video.
as one of the 8 remaining of the 12 of us who wanted this video, thank you. it was a fascinating deep dive into the subject matter, and I for one, enjoyed it immensely. I appreciate how headache inducing much work you put into this, especially while deployed. that can't be the best study environment.
Make that 9, and, for the extra points, from Australia. Not a shooter, no need despite the farm, but enjoy the technical excellence and attention to historical detail, Excellent work, thank you.
Make that ten, and now I want a Lorenz rifle
Yes I know the audio is awful! I had to use noise canceling setting on microphone, because there’s a diesel generator not too far away and the microphone kept picking it up. Can’t do anything about the diesel noise. There is no escape from it on base.
Well ill be out there by the end of the year
Sounds good to me. Thanks for the great video. Stay safe and God bless.
Hi enjoyed your video no I didn’t think was to long
I didn't even notice.
THERE'S NO ESCAPING DIESEL POWER!
The lucky strikes and the "denied" stamp behind you are just perfect.
Saw that, and laughed loud enough to scare my puppy off my lap. Sorry, Nori…
I absolutely love these super niche history lessons, especially when told from someone so knowledgeable!
I am not really into shooting, I just own one .32 squirrel rifle, but I love your insanely detailed content about history and develoment of firearms. Thank you so much, I hope that you come back to home soon.
I appreciate the long-form well-referenced military history lesson; it's nice to have the political/military _context_ as well as the technical details.
1 hour and 8 minutes of Lorenz. Yup, count me in. And you said more on the way? Excellent.
I’ve been “geeked” up waiting for this video, great information and history lesson on this rifle. I’ve said the development of this rifle was way ahead of its time when it was produced. I own 3 type 1 Lorenz rifles and they are fantastic and amazing shooters. Another great video thanks Brett.
Originals or Pedersoli replicas?
@@titanscerw originals, with the “cheek” rest
@@cphillips237 glorious!
Guard cartridges... and saving money.
The danish solution was to use old smoothbores for guard duty.
In the 1850ties all recruits where first issued the ex french M1822/48 smoothbore percussion musket and learned how to use it.
Then everyone learned how to use the Taprifle M/1848.
And the best 20% of the men where issued one in addition to his smoothbore.
They would use the the smoothbore for drill, field exercises (some, in theory, done with blanks) and Guardduty.
And when on guardduty the round ball would simply be rammed down gently without the paper. That allowed the soldier to remove it at the end of duty.
The rifled arms was only to be used for live firing on the range... or actual combat.
This way the expensive rifled guns where not worn by daily use.
By the early 60ties the M1822s had been uprifled, so now each battalion simply had something like 200 old smoothbores for drill, field exercises and Guardduty.
Also The 1863 drill books expressly ban the use of the ramrod in rifled firearms during drill.
The ban can easily be explained to be issued to ensure soldiers to not hammering flat the cone of the tap. I'm kind of bevildered why the Danes was seemingly "lagging" behind in the arms development during the mid 50's. In Norway we started to produce the "kammerlader" back in the 1840's. They did upgrade some old danish muskets to tap- rifles, but it was mostly as a stop gap, as far as I understand it. Denmark beeing a richer and more modern country, should in my mind be more modern than his "little brother" up north.
@@sidekickbob7227I guess it is a simple question of politics. Norways political leaderships where willing to use a bigger part of the state budget on the military. And/or simply prioritized smallarms above other things.
Also during the 1850ties it was pretty normal to limit rifled firearms to only part of the infantry.
And when it was decided to give all men a rifle (around 1860)the army also wanted rifled artillery. But There simply where not the budget for buying both new smallarms for the infantry and new rifled cannon for the artillery. So the artillery was prioritized.
Something that was the right decision... but still too little and too late.
@@thomasbaagaard Too late for 1864? We didn't have much backthen, but you might be into something. Having tasted freedom for less than a year, and then beeing handed to Sweden, might gave us the push to prioritice these foundings.
Brett, thank you for doing this great work -- especially while deployed!
Very well done ,astonishing to produce a video of this quality whilst serving ,my understanding is that the Austrian infantry lack of familiarity with this system really changed outcome of Solferino , rolling into the European wars up to the Second World War ,good on you dr John Outhwaite ex RAMC
Like the 'Denied' stamp in the background. Been looking forward to this!😀
And the Lucky Strike pogey bait
Please continue being a geek/nerd. Fascinating.
Audio was fine. A fun video. Thanks!
Thanks Brett. Love the nerding out sessions. I'm glad I'm not the only one that does things like that. At least you have an audience. My wife really doesn't enjoy when I nerd out about things. I aslo can't believe that you couldn't convince your command to let you replace your M4 with clearly superior rifle muskets and bayonets. You could bring your own ammo too! I figured that Army would be all on board. I'm actully suprised the Marine Corps still doesn't issue them. Take care stay safe. Semper Fi.
I really appreciate your approach. I would even say that your approach is scientific. You dig very deeply
Thanks Brett, absolutely love these deep dives!
Switzerland adopted a rifle for Sharpshooters in .41 cal (10.4 mm) in 1851. Followed by another model for skirmishers in 1856 and a model for line infantry in 1864 in the same calibre - though most of these where converted to trapdoor breech loaders shortly afterwards. But you are right - 13.6 mm is quite forward thinking in 1853 nontheless.
.41 or 10.4 mm remained the standard calibre for all new swiss firearms to come from 1851 onwards (exept for the Revolver of 1882 and the conversions of old smoothbore muskets first into rifled and then breech loading muskets in 1859/67) untill the introduction of the first smokeless powder cartridge model GP1890 which came with the Schmidt-Rubin of 1889.
great work , dinner time viewing. dont ever give up 👍
Very thankful for your videos. Blessings from Austria (:
Very entertaining and informative. thanks.
Yayyy Lorenz video again
I really enjoy your channel. very reminiscent of the old history channel type shows.
As always, great video! Good luck on the rest of your deployment
1 hell of a history video from a guy who was at camp victory Kuwait in 2004 . We had to give direction how to get there to convoys that got lost. Stay save buddy most respectfully yours
I'm not even much of a black powder enthusiast, but it was a fascinating dive. Gives all the perspective on how militaries react to a rapidly changing battlefield.
I thought the bow was better though ?
@@me67galaxylife What?
@@ShortLandPattern 'was just trolling about another comment of him under another video
Audio is fine, great job getting this video out under difficult conditions
I've never shot black powder firearms, and never will. I really value your long-form work--these videos, and your book--because in pursuing a narrow topic in such depth you give a very specific view of the general history of the times. My wife's grandmother, a little old lady from Wolverhampton in England, had an expression for anyone who was excessively inquistive: "She wants to know the far end of every fart." Long may you pursue the far end.
I’ll have to remember that saying. To the far end of the fart!
Great video and info
Very well done 👍👍👍Thank you
Huzzah Brett! A masterwork. Answers all of my questions including many I had not yet thought of. Good to have the length of time to do it justice.
Thanks for posting this! Great contact as usual from our favorite pseudo historian.
I would rank him as semi-pro historian nowadays! :)
Thank You
This was fun!
As an austrian i take my hat off for the effort you put in with the old documents. They are in my native language but the font always makes reading difficult for me too.
And for the sheepsfat: The word "Schöpsen" i am familiar with. "Shöpsenes"is sometimes still used in older restaurants to describe sheep meat. (and no, they then don't use old castrated sheep as people don't like the extreme taste of them anymore) But Unschlitt is something i never heard before. After you mentioning sheeps fat i was expecting a word like "Schmalz" ->Schafschmalz, Schöpsenschmalz.
Asked my father and even he (will be 69 this year) hadn't heard the word Unschlitt.
Thanks, blessings
Kind Thanks for your great channel, which I’ve been tuning into a good while, and for your Service! I discovered Cap and Ball after Paper Cartridges. You both have excellent sources/channels! Good Shootin and as always, Many Blessings! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
Cap and Ball is such a great channel and Balázs is always so helpful, even when I keep bugging him with questions!
I love your content! Stay safe in the middle east Major!! Best of luck and thank you for your content from Holland!!!
Absolutely splendid disquisition ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️
Fantastic history lesson, thank you for posting.
Thank you for your service and sacrifices
Good video Brett and much enjoyed, you could consider when testing the lubricated patch with a hard to get sheep product, instead try Lee liquid alox.
Ironically, I do happen to already have several pounds of real mutton tallow. And it works great!
Don’t think they had Lee Liquid Alox back in 1850s Austria 😜
Thank you for sharing amazing information. I had to binge all your videos on Lorenz Rifle. Cheers from Preßburg.
Appreciate all the work! Making me want to get into muzzleloading even more!
Technology was moving quite quickly in that period, really interesting how it breaks down and the reasons driving change.
I respect your get down brother . Thank you for your service.
Thank you for doing these great in-depth videos, they are fascinating! I love watching this channel when I have the time. Thank you for your service, here’s wishing you a speedy and safe deployment and a safe return home!
Very interesting and informative! Thank you. And good luck as you continue your deployment!
Wow, great video. My friend let me take his Lorenz to our Sons of Confederate Veterans meeting tonight. His rifle is stamped CSA in the wood and 1861 ahead of the hammer. They were all interested in the rifle and bullet technology. Thanks again !!
Loved this bit of gun history! I've been playing a Civil war strategy game and have been eager to learn about this period and weapons used in it. I'm a bit of a gun nut. Seeing the solutions they came up with to solve these problems is very entertaining.
Very interesting! Are we going to get "The Austrian Cartridge" book from you later? Sign me up for a copy!
You know, you say that…. Plans are in the works…
Ooh yes please.
Thanks so much, Brett. Looking forward to your book on the Lorenz.😉. It’s good to see you are healthy and not under drone attack.
This was wonderful, thank you!
Brett I honestly love the deep dive in to this topic, the depth paints history with such lively colours!
My ancestors served with Lorenz at least 2 generations served with them.
Love your work. Thank you for what you ar doing, I allways learn something new and realy intresting.
Congratulations on another great film about the Lorenz system. However, there was a better rifle from this period, which you mentioned in a teaser: the Swiss Feldstutzer M1851. Sorry for the language but I use Google translator.
Excellent video watched it all the way through to the end just one question did the Lorenz rifle musket have Progressive depth rifling?
Stunning video sir! I shan’t be hunting you down this time 🎯
Great work!
The method in which the compression bullet works is very remnicint of how the original 45/70/500 cartridge for the Trapdoor Springfield works. The lighter 45/70/405 uses a hollow base bullet to allow the bullet to expand and grab the rifling, whereas the 500 grain bullet has a solid base. The heavier bullet, cast from a relatively soft alloy, would upset to fill the rifling due solely to its inertia.
I've just recently become interested in the technology and advancements of the technology of these firearms. I'm looking for "deep dives" of information like your channel. I'm really enjoying the layout and how you present the information. Excellent work.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent video. I fire a custom .54 Long hunter 230-grain patched over 65-grains of 2-F Swiss and it seems tiny compared to some of the shoulder cannons you shoot. Best of luck on finishing your deployment, be safe and thank you for your service.
Great Video, perfect archaeological Work ! greetings from Bavaria !!
Good Video
Really enjoyable listening and learning. Also love the fake ending.
I’m not a shooter ( in the uk where shooting is too much hassle for most people) but I love the history and the engineering, thank you for a great monograph not so easy in Kuwait I bet! Thanks again, and come home safe .
I think the days when we could just shoot air rifles in UK gardens are long gone. Modern urban gardens are too small and anyone shooting in plain sight is likely to trigger the arrival of a Police armed response team a short while later.
I'm told that airsoft guns are more fun for indoor use :) and there are also some commercial public ranges around where you can you go and shoot for a fee.
My, er friends, in Wiltshire collect working Vickers machine guns - a visit to one of their association's open days is highly recommended if you are interested in 20th century small arms.
Great video! Is that COL Gorgas above ‘Bob’?
Awesome work! I’m glad you did all the research, I never would have been able to and it’s very interesting to be able to learn about it. I always watch these all the way through!
Glad to see your deployment seems to be going alright. Hope it continues. And I see your friend is still hanging out back there even not in your shop 😂. Thank you for making this video, stay safe!
Yeah I hauled the picture of Major Rivers all the way here, just to keep the joke running.
@@papercartridges6705 And we appreciate it! Thank you again for all you do.
i enjoyed this video so much ive watched it 3 times
Please seek immediate professional psychological help. :D
Bret!, Look Out Behind YOU! It's IVAN!
Really interesting.
I came across an account of Granbury's Texas brigade at Pickett's Mill, GA (May 27, 1864) stating that many of the Texans ditched their Lorenz rifles following victory when the opportunity to pick up Enfield rifles from the dead and wounded Federals was presented. Can you imagine any reason as to why they would favor the Enfield over the Lorenz? Is the P53 simply that superior of a rifle in terms of consistency, less fouling, accuracy at longer ranges, etc.? I'm interested to hear your opinion on this as you seem quite enthusiastic about the Lorenz rifle. Great deep dive, by the way.
No, their ammo was not properly sized for Lorenz.
In general, the Lorenz was thought of as a second rate firearm as compared to the Enfield. It was not built to near the standard as the Enfield was. Also, being in .54 cal. meant ammo resupply could be a bit more difficult. The proper ammo was practically non existent and a regular minié was used. You could find ammo for your Enfield in most any ordnance resupply wagon or tossed down cartridge box on the battlefield...
Brett, thank you for making this video. I have the chance to purchase a Lorenz his helps make my decision. Rangers lead the way.
Bret, Great video. Thank you for all this effort during your deployment. When the Lorenz and the Dreyse went head to head in1866 the Dreyse seemed to dominate.with much poorer ballistics. Was this just a rate of fire issue? The North used the Lorenz in the CW. Did Army Ordinance understand this issue? On your disrespecting the Nmember
An upcoming video will discuss Lorenz vs Dreyse in 1866. I did that video last year, but it’s still good! Just needs to be edited
Breechloaders rate of fire was the only real gamechanger on XIX century battlefields. Better accuracy at the same firing rate helped, but was not decisive - remember that at Solferino most of French line regiments were still armed with smoothbores(but with Nessler bullet). And the Prussians won the war with Austria mainly at the operational level, the Battle of Königgrätz was only the culmination of success, won by Prussians not only due to superior weapons(on example, Austrian artillery was much better than Prussian at this time), but also due the Austrians stupid mistakes.
Looking forward to that!
The South probably used the Lorenz much more than the North...
this is very interesting and very information if possible can you improve the audio quality too?
Audio is poor because I had to use noise cancellation, due to obnoxious diesel generator background noise.
Great consept Brett! I'm sure we're at least a dusin dusins (or a "skokk", as we say in Norway), who appreciate this long detailed introduction in firearm history and development.
👌👌👌👌
Not only Austria, but also Bavaria, Saxony, Württemberg, Baden and Hessen- Darmstadt used same caliber (South German Caliber Convention). Different Rifles and different shaped bullets, but in case or war, the soldiers of noted countries could use prepared ammunition from the other countries. As far as i know, Austria and Saxony Lorenz rifle, Bavaria Podewills rifle ( perhaps 15 Years ago i met two descendants of inventor), Württemberg,Baden and Hessen-Darmstadt the Vereinsgewehr.
Actually always wondered how soldiers unloaded their weapon during this period for situations like guard duty where they wouldn’t probably fire their rifle. Now I know!
The expansion bullet may have won in the end, but the compression bullet will always be more interesting to me
I'm one the dozen watching to the end (must be multiplied by c. 300 or so) and I'm heavily interested in all 19th century history, esp. of course the Habsburg Empire. Indeed, I happen to be a Bavarian. I presume you didn't have original Austrian manuals in Fraktur down there in Irak to study, so what else? pdf's? Would be very interesting to download them and read some here at home. Your vid was not at all exausting, but I admit, as watching it a day after release, that I quickly went to a certain place and provided me with a fresh beer when you announced that "fake-end".
Many of the books are on Google Books, others in web Archive, and others I have had friends provide to me. It is incredible that I can do this research, from anywhere in the world! Internet is amazing.
Thanks for that. My grandfather worked in Steyr, and I have a great interest in Austrian firearms and the largely forgotten oh-so-nearly role of guncotton. Wishing you a safe return.
And what's wrong with Frakturschrift anyway? 😅
My translation apps don’t work well with Fraktur and I have to read it slowly with a dictionary the old fashioned way. But that also helps my vocabulary!
Massively :)
Gotta love the "ivan" targets in the back
What's 'Bob's job there? Loved the presentation by the way :)
He’s currently my top LT
❤❤❤
Thank you. I have been following your Lorenz videos with great interest. And now have my own, delivered yesterday. The rear sight has one, long vertical slot, rather than the two square apertures, with ranges engraved on each side of the slot. Are you familiar with this? Could there be something missing? Please keep producing your videos, invaluable for those of us that shoot our collections.
Peter.
Just found this is apparently one of a number of variations c1862. And there is a missing slide. I have photos and will make up a replacement.
Well done! The 1862 model is much more desirable than the 1854.
I dig the cartons of lucky strikes. What is the denied about
It’s a stamp I use for soldiers requests for leave or promotions.
@@papercartridges6705 lol
Thankyou for your nerd-dom :-)
As a high-schooler obsessed with black powder, I am never invited to the parties lol.
Hi Brett, I just purchased a 54 Lorenz at action. The barrel has been bored out to .58, but bent out toward the muzzle just a little. I called Bob Hoyt to see if he could straighten out the barrel, and he said he should be able to. I am also going to have him sleeve the barrel back to the original .54 cal. Have you had any experience with having one of you barrels sleeved? Thanks!
I have a Hoyt lined barrel, just make sure you specify .547 caliber because Bobby likes to make them .540 (that’s his favorite caliber) unless you are very clear you want it .547.
Yes, we have not got that far yet. I plan on giving him a call this week to make sure he received the barrel ok. I would imagine that he will want a modern bullet mold, and not the Wilkinson type that you mentioned in the video. And the breech will be more like the Springfield type accepting a hollow ball, like a Lyman 533-476.? But I need to find out for sure. ,547 sounds correct to me. What do you recommend, and what bullet do you shoot from your sleeved Lorenz? Thanks!
What is the music at the beginning of your videos?
Curzon’s March of the Bowmen
My thought is that maybe putting lube in the cuts will force the lube out when fired and push away any paper with it.
Jokes on you, I like this stuff
Does that make Lorenz top rifle of muzzleloading era?
"A river to my people" - Auda Abu Tayeh
I hope this isn't a verboten topic or likely to incite drama: I wasn't particularly aware of the NSSA prior to your videos and you've mentioned them a handful of times relating to curious/ill-informed positions they seem to take. Are they generally to be avoided/not assumed to be a credible authority on the historic use of firearms?
If you want to shoot at short range with extreme accuracy with Civil War guns, the N-SSA can teach you. I think most NSSA members understand that the shooting they do is not what was being done historically. Some of them are extremely knowledgeable (Forth Armory for example). That said, I would not rely on the average N-SSA member for credible historic knowledge about the original firearms, ammunition, tactical use, etc.
@@papercartridges6705 Good to know. Much appreciated!
I was in Kuwait for a couple of days before going to Iraq. I miss that DFAC lol
The DFAC stinks now. In 2013 it was amazing. Salad bar was fresh, everything was good. Now it’s been subcontracted to the lowest bidder and it’s just awful. Can’t complain too much though, better than MREs.
Uh, ITS fun Reading those German Texts. Interesting to see that no one speaks like this anymore. Or rather it reads like 'fancy pants german'.
Also those looking sentences separated by commas. How does that compare to English texts of the time (or earlier)?
English texts from this time also use lots of commas, and large words that are not often used in ordinary conversations.
And then came the Indian mutiny
Why make such complex cartridges when most, if not all armies at the time were using Napoleonic column tactics? And engaging at 200 yards max!
That may have been true in some cases, particularly when hurried conscription took place on a massive scale and relatively untrained soldiers were deployed (as in the American Civil War) but it most certainly wasn't always the case.
Take, for example, the Battle of Balaclava in the Crimean War (October 1854, some 10 years before the American Civil War) where the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders dispersed a Russian cavalry charge with two accurate volleys at 800 yards and 500 yards.
One question, do you have an email availabe to message?
brett at papercartridges . com