Following up on Red Dots and lack of understanding
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- čas přidán 27. 06. 2024
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Thanks Ben! I’ve stopped staring at the hood of the car and my driving has improved tremendously!
8^)
That’s actually a good way to put it for novices
I just center my rolls royce hood ornament between the white lines and I do OK most of the time. I hit a lot of stuff so I'm doing pretty good by most measures.
I disagree I think you need to be front hood focused when driving.
Ben, (my name is Ben too), your videos lately have been awesome. Just wanna say thank you, so much content, so little time to take it in. I love shooting ❤
Hi other Ben. My name is not Ben, but I also wanted to say thanks you to Ben for his awesome videos and to other Ben for his awesome comment.
@@CaffeineAndMylantaHi is not Ben. My name is Also Not Ben and I wanted to thank Ben for the videos and Ben Too for giving the opportunity to thank Ben.
This format of answering questions and replying to comments is awesome. I learn everytime.
Thank you very much for the videos. I appreciate the clear and practical tips that you are giving, they have helped me shoot a red dot better and to understand the principles of shooting a red dot
Just got done watching both of these videos and they're all good points. Im an instructor for my agency and theres been a long history of bad habits including the hard front sight focus. Just getting folks to have a target focus with irons is difficult enough, and convincing them that in a firefight they'll focus on the target by nature has been a chore.
I forgot what I was even searching for and your video popped up so I clicked on it and man am I glad I did because my eyes are sort of all over the place and now I know more of what to do. My vision isn’t as good as it used to be. That’s why I went with a dot so far I’m doing good with it, but I don’t wanna pick up any bad habits and now that I know where I’m supposed to be looking because I do find myself looking all over the place & Trac hold on. One of my pistols is tuned really good. I can tickle the trigger and it’s always lined up afterwards, but when I shoot the 40 caliber it flips around a little bit more and I do find myself losing focus occasionally. Great tips thank you.
The clear, refined terminology you use helped me tremendously. I realized it wasn't the dot...it was my habitual index, and the way I assumed that index, sucked. I shot for work in the past, and have a proclivity for erring on the side of existing training and doctrine. Early on, with irons, I had the experience of shooting close with a target focus and awareness of my gun / sights being lined up, but it wasn't 'clear tip'. I worried I was going to learn a bad habit. We shot 'a doctrinal shit ton' of ammo, but it was all structured and in a highly competitive type-A environment. There wasn't the opportunity to play around with techniques, and there were repercussions for shooting like a turd, especially for younger team members. Over focus on 'clear tip' caused me problems over the years, and I'm sure it impaired my training others to shoot. I appreciate the thought you put into translating your active philosophy into useful concepts. Thank you.
@tsudmeyer7630 Well put, Sir! I was taught as a .civ “equal height, equal light” and doubly confirm since “responsible for every bullet that leaves the barrel.” While not without value, it pretty much cultivated pure turtle, which doesn’t work so good in the gun games. Learning how to go faster is so much fun! 🤩
This is extremely helpful. I played a little low level college ball back in the day. When you're shooting a jump shot you don't look at the defender's hand or the ball, you focus on the rim even on a 45 degree bank shot. You might miss using that method but you'll 100% miss if you focus on the defender or your shot release, all you focus on is visualizing the ball going in the basket. Takes thousands of practice shots to be a good shooter. Same goes for pretty much anything. Can't believe I wasted decades training with a pistol never connecting those dots.
This is the way. Maintaining a relaxed and unbroken focus on the intended point of impact, allowing your eyes to call the shots is how I’ve been training.
I started shooting again, 3.6 years ago, and at that time, everything on YT was about the front sight. I just returned to YT, literally days ago, and many GunTubers are now all about being target focused…something has recently changed!
I enjoyed the bit in one of your vids that covered a more relaxed grip, allowing the muzzle to return by itself to where it started, without a lot of fuss; maybe somewhat slower than a competition grip, but more precise…good stuff!
I've struggled with "dot folliwing" for... well, forever. Your class and videos have helped. Especially the recent videos. Thanks.
One DF drill that has helped me has been wide transitions. Focusing on the eyes leaving as soon as possible and then being aware of the dot coming onto the target.
I also do it WHO, which is a bear.
I started with irons decades ago, but quickly decided that focusing on the front sight was not going to work for me. I naturally focused on the target and just let my iron sights "come into view." I started dot shooting a year ago and had read that "transitioning to a red dot" would take thousands of rep's.! Was easy because of the way I had been shooting iron sights all these years. :_:
I had issues using a dot until this past weekend. I took a class with Steve Anderson and Joey Sauerland. Learning to call shots on multiple targets at speed in a string really brought it all home for me.
Motorcycles helped me learn dots very quickly. Looking where you're going instead of focusing on the machine is a huge part of riding on the racetrack, similar concepts to target focus.
100%
New here.
It was suggested to me that I learn and train with the iron sights first, and then attach my red dot and learn and train with that.
I'm totally new to pistol ownership as of about 5 months ago. Taken several classes, and will continue to, and I spend time on the range.
the "don't state at the hood of the car, look to where you want to go" resonated with me to the core....now I get it. Now I need to train it
The mouse analogy is perfect.
Great stuff, thanks. I saw the first video also. I first started shooting pistol red dot in 2020. When I first started I recognized and caught myself focusing on the dot. Once I consciously shifted the focus on the target my drill times decreased significantly.
Death stalkers. Sounds good. I like that term Ben
Yet another honest and helpful video. Thanks
Great plain spoken, solid advice !
Always with the insights. Very helpful
Good advice per usual. Thank you
We love ya Ben, keep up the good work.
Great context & clarification thoughts, Ben. Thanks.
Excellent, excellent video. Thanks very much Ben
These are revolutionary concepts to many of us. After the other video I had two practice days and because it was on my mind I was catching myself looking at the dot over and over - especially on multiple round recoil and transitions. Been working it a lot and its getting better, especially from the idea I am noticing when I am doing it INCORRECTLY almost every time, which seems to be the heart of most of the practice ideas. Experimented with irons in dry fire yesterday - now that is something really cool when its working: The focus spot is clear, the front sight is "clear" in awareness. Its like seeing both, without "looking" at either of them.
Very GOOD points
Ben as always with the best Knowledge dump on the web
Great analogy with the car and hood.
USPSA BOD: *exists*
Ben Stoeger: leave my awareness
Not to many videos out there that thoroughly explain red dots like you do. Lots of great pointers!
Great instructor, with modern techniques that most other instructors have yet evolved to.
So difficult but definitely possible as a new red dot shooter. Your guidance is impressive! Keep pushing
Great video!
Good to hear that the comment that led to the original video helped grow your channel😂 I get a lot of your videos, especially these about red dots, and hope more people do too
Good advice and something that takes practice for sure. If I bring the pistol up and point it towards the target and the red dot is nowhere to be seen I then focus on my suppressor height front sight and put it on the target, then the red dot usually appears and I can put it on the target without taking notice of the lens.
I appreciate your down-to-earth approach; I’ve grown tired of the tacticool/operator types.
Great video. Made a lot of sense. I subscribed.. thank you
Very good video. I recently got my first dot sight for a handgun. There is definitely a learning curve. Another bit of advice I heard was "see the flash of color and break the shot" That mental image helped me to get on target with less wandering. I hope I am not just building a NEW bad habit. Thank you though for your insights. Very helpful.
Should have way more subs for this channel. Thanks for the share!!
I agree with your opinion .. liked the tips
Great info man,and enjoyed your last video.I have been thinking of getting a Red Dot,and both video’s were very helpful.New sub here also,keep up the great content!!!!
I always stare directly at the hood of my car. (Just kidding)😂
good video as usual
For tranning I use the term "leaving the sights" while transitioning. Your system "spot-spot-spot" works very well. And yes))) it feels slow))
I like your term though. It makes a lot of sense.
I've surfed my whole life. I can be going really fast on a wave with no time to think. But I always look where I want to go and everything else follows.
Totally get it but tough to do. Dry Fire, Dry Fire, Dry Fire.
And then some more dry fire.
The eotech reticle is speckled exactly for that. So that so shooters arn't being glared at with a neon light show when they're aiming at the target
I am a recent red dot on pistol convert. I had a bad experience on a rental (which was a G17L with an rmr) and wrote them off. However, I gave it another shot and I realized that the difference was in my aiming philosophy. I started to realize that pure target focus was working much better just as you said and then something clicked. At the risk of outing myself as a "gamer" I realized that it started to feel more like I was playing an FPS game. The way I think about a red dot on pistol now is shooting off of an index point and the dot magically appearing every time instead of getting all fussed up in the sights. If the dot isn't appearing on the target without me thinking about it, then I am doing something wrong with my body mechanics and need to train more/suck less.
My .02. Great points in the vid.
You're at the right place to learn if you're new to red dots. Ben gives reliable info.
Gave it another "shot"
@@peppersaltman1805 Thanks for pointing out my glaring, missed, perfect opportunity. I have brought dishonor and I am shamed lol 😆
Good stuff
Thanks
Ben stumbled on your channel, I am a very experienced complete novice LOL been shooting Like shit for 30 years. Only in the past two years have a taken it seriously. I could not agree more that training is the key but good advise on how and what to train is the first steps. Thanks for the advise as I need it ...
I know I suck, but now have a better understanding of why I suck
Seems like it would be useful to have a sight where there's a large reticle around the dot that's outside of the sight when you have the dot in view, but otherwise the reticle shows you where the dot is. I know this wouldn't be easy to engineer just because of how red dots work, but it would be handy for learning faster.
Ben when are you coming to New Jersey ? We need some training here too
Us B Class appreciate you considering us "Advanced"
Thanks for the tips. I just started practicing with a red dot on a pistol recently and would really like to dial it in before I use it for EDC.
Thank you for your videos, stating positively what we should be doing is more helpful than talking about what we are doing wrong or what we should not do, so I find this video more useful than your earlier one.
I’m new to pistol red dots and have been thinking a very large reticle would be helpful for guiding me back to the point of aim, what about that?
The struggle is real. I still get sucked into the dot if it’s sits in front of my face for too long. Things like plate racks or if I’m shooting drills like practical accuracy or even trying to shoot groups with no time limit… I have to fight my eyes from tunneling into the dot. And the further the target, the more difficult it tends to be to say target focused
Any tips for keeping focus on a small point of a target when you cannot see a distinguishable mark on the target? I notice I drift to dot/window focus when I can’t make out any features on the cardboard (which is often). Effect goes away when I shoot on pitted steel or printed sheet targets with crisp boundaries.
I just got 1000% better watching this video. I was using the dot wrong the entire time.
Thnx for sharing knowledge. So much appreciated… Pls elaborate more on selection of spot on the target (i.e. see the whole target and then zoom to a spot). Also what’s the acceptable accuracy when dry firing (i.e. against the black paster on the wall from 7-8ft). Does the dott lands consistently on the paster or misses of few inches are ok?
Every time I hear Ben say “my awareness” I hear it in a taran butler voice as “show me your awareness”
Ok, the problem has been fully explained. What is the solution? How about some drills so I can identify the problem, and some so I know when it is corrected.
Thanks for both videos. I'm relatively new to shooting and these come at a time where I am training to be target aware. I'm not sure is this is the place to ask this question, but it's affecting me staying target aware. What is the proper way to train to keep the wrist and hands from moving which affects the dot coming back into sight awareness. I am wasting time searching for the red thing to come back into my awareness. I end up losing the target and start searching for the red thing like chasing a 3 year old around the house. Where did you go? I don't have time for this nonsense I have a stage to complete. :O)
Gold..:
I've never understood why, with irons, people focus on the front sight while shooting because you can shoot with both eyes open and see two sets of iron sight alignments, and shoot using the correct one while focusing on the target.
Yeah. I could never do the “front sight focus” thing when shooting irons. I always did target focus and use the sights almost like red dots. I can easily see sight alignment with iron in my peripheral vision. I guess that’s why the transition to an optic was easy for me.
I definitely dot focus on smaller targets like steel.
What I do to help make sure I am target focused is use targets that are difficult to see hits that way when I am shooting at them I have to stay focused on the target to confirm my hits. If I focus on the dot I don’t have clear vision on target and I won't see where my rounds hit.
Thanks Ben, is it harder for you to have small gun's dot return to the target?
Hi Ben! Do you use grip enhancers when dryfiring?
Any thoughts on looking at the laser on the target when firing a SIRT pistol? I’m new to USPSA and purchased a SIRT for dry fire while deployed. Just not sure if looking at the laser on the target is the equivalent of staring at my impacts and ultimately creating training scars. Thanks!
Ben, if you are new to red dots, do you want to focus on raising the gun and having the dot in the sight picture first and then focus on target focus? Or practice both simultaneously?
You mentioned running big window Holosun 510 on your carbine. Is there any advantage to having a larger window optic on a carbine over the smaller micro style models?
Good video. Develope your grip and presentation, the dot will be there. Dont be the cat that chases the laser dot...
Another great video. I am not sure if my comment helped yesterday to trigger this video but I still have one fundamental question not answered. My question in very simple terms is, HOW do you use the red dot? The slightest movement moves the dot, so I have no idea if I am positioning it properly. Maybe this will help, here's how I have been doing it. I line up the dot on the target (focused not just on dot but target too), place it somewhere around center of the window and fire. I am being critical of myself here for not understanding, that's why I want to know but the feeling I get is almost that I am using both the dot and the irons.
Try to stop thinking about the dot. You don't line the dot on the target, you point the gun towards the target and the dot tells you something. Adjust your grip based on it.
Accept that the sights are always moving slightly if you're shooting unsupported. Nothing you can do about it. You perceive this movement more with a dot than with irons, but it's just a perception.
@Fryheart Thanks. I appreciate the reply but that isn't telling me a thing about how the dot works. You are describing it that way because I'm sure you understand it. There has to be a purpose for having the dot in the viewfinder and surely, there is a simple explanation.
@kirkeric Sorry, I didn't understand the question then. Regarding the position of the dot within the window, they are made so that once it's sighted in it doesn't really matter, this is what they call "parallax free" in their marketing materials. This is of course not 100% true, the glass usually causes a little distortion near the edges because it isn't flat, but if you look into the manuals or write to the manufacturer they should give you some sort of technical data. Holosun in their manuals states that the parallax error is
Ok. Thanks! So, I've been doing it right then. Just could never seem to find any videos that really said, hey, u use this like a sight. It's implied to me because after all, it is a sight. Much appreciated.
I like the practice of looking at a spot on the wall could be a light switch could be a thermostat could be a Target draw onto that spot with your eyes closed open them and see how close your dot is to that spot on the wall and most of the time if you do that over and over I think you'll be shocked shocked because on a USPSA Target it would probably be in the a Zone after you've practiced it for a while teaches your eyes to look at the Target and not the DOT and build confidence that if you pull the trigger without seeing the dot it would be in the a Zone C at the worst what is your opinion on that? And thank you
I find myself going from irons, to a dot, and back to irons, I shoot noticeably faster. After some time with dry fire, maybe a few live fire and a local match, my time/points with irons goes up. I’m assuming as presentation has to be more optimal with the dot as I don’t lose the dot running to the next array?
There is a subtle but important difference between Knowing and understanding.
We all KNOW we need to target focus, but we don’t UNDERSTAND what that actually means. Maybe we’re focusing on the target 80% of the time, and the rest of the time is where the eye shifts to the dot ONLY FOR A SECOND before it shifts back. And we don’t even realize we’re doing that, but Ben’s saying that’s the key moment when we especially shouldn’t be focused on the dot
that's called not knowing and not understanding bruh
@@inferna7327 what I mean is, for example we all know guns are loud, from movies and such. But unless we’ve been around guns in real life, we don’t understand how incredibly loud it is.
Yes. That's why the tape on the front glass is so useful, it helped me a lot especially at the beginning. It's a diagnostic tool to see if you're using your eyes correctly.
In all things, most people memorize a name, idea, concept without understanding. There are 4.0 Summa Cum Laude grads who memorize great and understand little.
It's better to understand!
I have a question do you think the Mantis X system will help me improve?
Among other things, I’m discovering that it is difficult for me to not jump focus to the dot when it lands on and covers the specific point of the target that I’m focused on.
Ben, what is your purpose of firearms training? Competition, fun, protection, Leo, military?
Thank you in advance for your answer.
Yes
What are your thoughts on shooting with an occluded dot?
A while ago you said it was still possible to become dot focused and not target focused while shooting with the occluded dot, care to elaborate? I usually dry fire and practice with the occluded dot
Hey ben, I have a question you've probably answered already and I apologize. (I'm from instagram)
Does dot size matter? I was previously convinced that a 1 moa dot on a pistol was better especially for shooting targets at distance (target ID and acquisition).
If you have a video on this feel free to link it and I'll give that a watch.
Thank you for your time!
On the iron sight point: I've shot with a dot 99.9999% of the time for 5 years. With my backup irons on my semi-autos, I have never had a problem with target focus.
Yet last week I decided to try renting a revolver again (which I hate), and I found myself for the first time in years feeling the desire to close an eye while shooting. I'm wondering if it's because the snubnose revolver sights were more minimalist and harder to pick up?
Are there any downsides from shooting occluded? Seems to keep me target focused
Anyone know how to sign up for a class with Ben?
I feel like you do a really good job of conveying what you mean without sounding arrogant or like you are talking down to anyone. I also don't feel that you are "showboating" or trying to make yourself out to be the "tacticool, tier-1 operator" type of instructor. You come across as a very normal, likeable guy.
The biggest objection to RDS optics is "it's hard to find the dot." STOP trying to "find the dot!" Do you try to "find the iron sights?" Or are they just there when you present the gun? I don't go looking for the dot any more than I go looking for the front sight.
I also think that the notion of "co-witness" has made this issue even worse. The same people looking for the dot are spending time looking for the dot to line up with their irons simultaneously or for "confirmation." That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. :)
I was not happy with my red dot. I want it on my carry gun, but they are all battery dependent. Holosun is gimmicky, since the solar panel requires a critical moment to wake up. Are there any that sense when the gun is drawn and don't drain the battery in the mean time?
Regarding irons: why is it bad to focus on the front sight, and what is the ideal alternative? Thanks!
Front sight focus comes from traditional precision sports, like 50m free pistol and conventional bullseye. Angular errors (misalignment between the sights) are a bigger problem than parallax errors (perfectly aligned sights but slightly off-center of the bull). Think “cone of error” versus “tube of error” and how that difference plays out at 50 yards/meters).
Front sight focus prioritizes perfect level and center alignment over a visual sights/target relationship.
Practical shooting targets never require that sort of precision. A-zones are big, C-zones are huge, and most are within 15 yards. So, you can shoot them target-focused, just like a red dot.
What does that mean, in practice? You just look “through” your iron sights. As long as you are aware of three fuzzy bumps between your eye and the focal point on the target, you can let rip and shoot mostly As.
Fiber optic fronts are popular for this, because you can basically use it just like a red dot. Look at small spot in target, become aware of a glowing ball near the fuzzy bumps, pull trigger.
Another popular option is all black sights with a wide notch and thin blade-big light bars make it easy to see the “alignment” of the fuzzy bumps while they’re out of focus.
That modern samurai technique of pinky pressure and dropping the dot from 12 is holding so many people back. Don’t think about how to make the dot appear… just build muscle memory and it will appear on its own.
It is mainly for classic irons shooters transtioning to RDS from a front sight high presentation. The pinky of support hand offsets the muzzle-proud attitude.
I don't think it's meant to be a cure-all for everyone. The goal is what Ben said, grooved presentation that puts the reticle between eye and target.
im thinking of getting the holosun 507Comp on my gen 5 g17, have you tried it and if so what are your thoughts on it?
He has a video on it already. He likes them.
He said previously he’s only been buying 507 comps for quite a while now.
ah ill take a look to see if its there thanks!@@jagpilotohio
@@stefan_1989 I have 4 of them now myself. Quite good. I only buy those and EPS and EPS carry now.
You are against “techniques” to find the dot. Can you do a video to explain “index”?
This is probably a stupid question but where is the recoil spring? Looks like a empty hole there
I'm curious if you give a damn about the ACSS Vulcan reticles. I feel like it's both great and also forces you into bad habits
Trash. It's too distracting and overcomplicates things. Visually, you already have enough struggles with a solid dot.
6moa dot, done. No other reticles. Train to find the dot / get the dot in the same place every time. Complex reticles just make it harder to shoot, even though you may “find” the dot easier, and they make you focus more on the dot.
@DatHoang-oe9xd I think if nothing else, the original chevron center image deserves some consideration as a better circle Dot, since it's less cluttered and also allows for accurate extended range. The big circle does definitely raise some concerns about target focus.
@@lordhellfire153 nah, there's already enough to deal with shooting at speed. My lizard brain wants simple
I wish we could return to "I think" or "I believe" instead of I "FEEL" like.
One of the issues that arise in the "tactical use" world is dot brightness. If a police officer has their dot brightness adjusted for ambient light condition and find they are suddenly thrust into a divergent light environment, outside of self adjusted dots, what steps might one take to remedy the dot brightness issue?
It's less an issue and more a question of use. Bright enough that ambient light doesn't wash out the reticle. What is your ambient light, that is the question.
@@seanoneil277 what happens when ambient light changes from moment to moment. Like a day time building search in a warehouse?
@@mlazarus5388Go do that thing, and find out first hand. You can't theorize and hand-wring, you have to get off the bench.
who in their right mind NOT like you ?????? Amigo, se te quiere