Lorica Hamata under Lorica Segmentata?
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2024
- Would it be possible to wear a mail armour (hamata) underneath a Roman lorica segmentata? And, more importantly, was it done historically by the Romans?
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In the 3rd century AD, during the Severan dynasty and Crisis of the Third Century, some "extra-heavy" soldiers put their lorica squamata (scale armor) on a lorica hamata.
For those wondering where I got this information, read "Roman Infantry Equipment, The Later Empire" by I.P. Stephenson.
Pardon are you talking about Lorica Plumata, where the scales are attached to the mail armor?
@@Jeremiah90526 Is that what he said?
Yes exactly! You can Google it and see the archaeological findings. There are several pieces of armor with scales attached to mail armor.@@Jeremiah90526
Your channel has the same appeal as the old History Channel specials, only with actual historical accuracy and no aliens. Thank you for educating me, Metatron ^_^
Though both have dudes with beards in them. ;)
+James Davenport I dude without a beard is a woman. Just sayin ;)
or an asian lol
Caleb F America is Officially a communist Propaganda Machine to brainwash the masses of the many to believe in lies,ignorance,and afflictions to our mind and hearts alike.
Caleb F aliens are real education tho
Take a drink every time he touches the Lorica Segmentata.
Thx for idea. Great drinking game with great lecture at the same time. Me and my m8s approve! 😄
The more I learn, the more I feel like knights and samurai are some sort of strange anomaly, when it comes to armor. For pretty much all of history, armor was pretty much the same, regardless if it's ancient egypt, rome, greece, the viking age or most of the middle ages - your shield was your main defense with the armor being the secondary, heck, they often didn't even bother with any armor other than a helmet and maybe some grieves. And then, suddenly, these guys show up out of nowhere, one getting rid of the shield, because they don't need it, the other getting rid of it, because it gets in the way of archery.
Seems so strange when you put it in perspective. Just two groups of people going against the entirety of military history.
Regarding European knights, they were able to ditch the shield because they came up with a process to temper (harden) large steel plates, making them nigh impervious to conventional weapons other than slender knives like misericordes, which could be jabbed where there were gaps in the plates, or by specialized polearms. Having a shield on top of a full harness of tempered steel plate was superfluous.
You’re missing Cataphracs and the Lamallar armored troops of Eastern Europe
@@Kingdomkey123678 they also used catafract in West
@@assumjongkey1383 cataphracterii op
@@Evili555 catafract and lamellar was also used by Romans
Thanks to this channel, "Lorica Segmentata" and "Lorica Hamata" are probably the only Latin phrases I can properly pronounce
ahaha I am glad you can ^^
To be fair, in my recent binge-watching, I have heard you say them quite a lot...
On an unrelated note, do you have any experience working with metal? My dad, brother and I are thinking of trying to make a great helm soon.
coryman125 No experience unfortunately. What kind of helmet are you going to make?
A 13th century style great helm, with a flat top and a brass cross on the front. From what I've seen, it's 5 pieces, and no complex curves, so it should be an easy one to start with
Sounds cool ^^
Metatron you are a damn legend, such a bank of knowledge.
Ahahha thank you for that :)
I second this, I learn so much every time you discuss armor, armaments and history
+Metatron hey if roman army's where so armered and what not how did Saxon bet them
Angrygerman1930 because the roman legion in those specific locations were small due to the fact that the roman empire was spread thin, they took too much land and therefore didn't have enough men to sufficiently defend the land.
But would they still when because they had better armor better tactics and light Calvary and the Roman tortoise and had better long rang weapons I truly don't see how they lost I love my fellow Saxon but I just don't get how they won against such a force
It's still valid in today's armies. Changing the gear and outfit of an entire army at the same time is extremely expensive. So you will sometimes see that a few (elite) units will get the new better gear first and that the rest of the army will follow later (if the money didn't run out at that time). WW2 is a perfect example when you see that the elite SS units got the best and newest equipment first, while the rest of the Wehrmacht still had to use the old(er) equipment.
That's actually not accurate. Firstly, the majority of the SS were far from elite. The SS were the ones in charge of most of the foreign troops, so Spanish volunteers, Finns fighting in the continuation war, that sort of thing. While the Finns were typically quite good soldiers, that had nothing to do with their SS leadership and everything to do with the fact that the majority of them were Winter War veterans, and you did not live through the front lines of that war without becoming a damn good soldier. However, volunteers from neutral countries, like Spaniards and Swedes, and there were even a small number of American Nazis that went to Germany before America joined the war, were nothing special. Neither were the Ukrainian volunteers or Romanian, Hungarian, and Slovakian expeditionary forces sent to aid Germany. That's besides the fact that the SS were also put in command of the conscripted POWs that the Germans used. Needless to say, foreigners pressed into service against their own country under threat of death are far from elite soldiers. The SS also got most of the captured equipment, most prominently French, as the French had left msssive unused stockpiles of ammunition for these weapons and vehicles, while the Wehrmacht typically had first rights on domestically produced equipment. That doesn't mean what I'm saying was a constant across the Reich and throughout the war, both the SS and the Wehrmacht used the best equipment and the best men they could get their hands on, but overall, the SS was used for handling rebellions far more often than it was used as an elite military force
Your videos are always really well presented and informative... You are definitely one of the best historical arms and armor channels an CZcams.
You are such a wealth of knowledge
Thank you for those kind words :)
I would love for you to talk about the Balkans and their armors
It's a bit changed, they made their own style, didn't really follow the originals. I can still perfectly understand which armour is which of course, they are not completely fantasy, but still they added details and stuff that weren't present.
Not just that, but the scutum looked kind of shortened to me.
Dam I didn't get to watch your videos in a long time. Time to binge watch!!!
I have a feeling Metatron really really realllyyyy enjoys pronouncing lorica segmentata 😂
Dude, I think I don't know how to express well how I love your work, Thanks a lot!
Thumbs up
Very informative as always, thank you metatron.
I love your videos on Roman armor and culture. Thank you for all your work!
I'm glad you like them and thank you for watching
really good video. I love your channel and it's one of my favourite medieval channel
Very informative. Love your use of the actual armor names, ie Lorica segementata/Hamata
You really should have more subs by now. Your videos are awesome. I come to hear all kinds of history and facts that you really do a great job explaining.
Thank you very much for that! :3
Thanks for the video Metatron! It's always great to watch the content that you make.
I'm glad you think so
Fabulous video, sir.
You are like my history brother I always thought Only I knew around 80% of history in EVERY ( almost every ) culture until I found this channel 6 months ago
Interesting topic. Never thought about this situation before. Your videos are great sir.
Well thank you for that! I'm glad you think so
Your videos are great!
AVE from Romania, Metatron! Thank you for all the videos: you rock!
My pleasure and thank you for watching
After all these years how am I just finding this series! Thanks for spreading your wings Metatron.
Dzięki za świetny film :)
Ottimo video, complimenti.
Grazie mille!
You are the best CZcamsr!!
Well said Metatron! Great video lecture on Roman armour and it's proper use within Legion.🤔🧐🤔👊👍
You, sir, have won yourself a subscriber
I'm glad I have :)
I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL
When I saw a walkthrough of Ryse: Son Of Rome, I COMPLETELY missed the Lorica Hamata under the Lorica Segmentata.
I usually go into most of your videos not knowing Jack s*** about the topic but I learn quite a bit from it. Thank you for making such informative videos.
I really love your videos! Thanks my noble lord!
Thank you very much for your kind words ^^
I want you as my english teacher, I think you would be great. :D
Skialgr I'm glad you feel that way :)
I have a question: Do your pubil watch your videos?
Just a small point. Where you say you don't feel the weight of the armour when mounted, the horse does! There is a limit to what a horse can carry and although they were probably tough , they were small.
I'm a relatively new subscriber and am fascinated with history. I've always loved history of the ancient world, so I am really enjoying your videos.
Have any videos on the various weather wear of the Roman soldier, that is what was the dress of the typical Roman soldier in cold-weather conditions, as opposed to warm-weather conditions? I see movies, but I am interested in knowing what was historically accurate in colder weather conditions, like the Romans in Britannia or Romans fighting in winter conditions, et cetera.
Thank you.
nice video bro!! a good idea for you to make a video about what type of armor and weapons romans and greeks have the period when romans won perseus macedonian army i cant find any video about this battle and the types of weapons and armor of both armies
Hello, I have really been enjoying your uploads, just subscribed. Just FYI, this one has caption fails to the point that it is unwatchable. (English CC) Just thought you would want to know. Thanks for all the other great videos, keep them coming!
Yes this! I think it gets messed up when there is a non English word or if he goes too fast. Other than that, great videos "Method1" ;)
Haha. We must be kind to "Method 1" so he does not stop making videos!
lol, you might like lindybeige if you like this channel. It's a little different but it is a (mostly) history/ war channel with very good English captions.
Yes. I like him, although I think he might be a robot, haha. If you are an ASL speaker (like me) you might enjoy jhahinasl channel. They have presentations on Jewish history, there is a good one about the Medievals.
I am and I will, thank you :)
Great video! I would suggest that the two strongest arguments for NOT using hamata + segmentata are economics and tactics, more than fatigue. The segmentata required a great deal of resources (materials and time) to build, considering the lack of advanced metallurgy knowledge needed to mass produce (mass as in industrial-grade production, it would appear around 16th century) secondly, and most importantly the scutum. That (basically a pavese) along with roman tactics made a second layer of armor practically useless.
Basically I'm just saying I agree with everything you just said ahaha
very good video again Raff!! thank you very much!
i should choose a more appropriate video to ask and not one for ancient Rome,but what your opinion on movements/events like Battle of the Nations? would you participate if you had the opportunity?
perhaps a future video on the topic?
ευχαριστω και παλι και καλη συνεχεια !! :)
Lorica Hamata, what a wonderful phrase.
Great shirt!
You are really amazing in your knowledge and theories/thoughts. I've seen lot's of videos from you and I haven't yet been able to say you are wrong. Good work! Please fix your hairstyle though... 😁
When you mentioned the legionnaires working in armor I thought about how modern soldiers always wear there plate carriers it isn't connected but it was something I thought about
Hey Metatron !
I would like to know your Opinion HMB (Historical Medieval Battle )
like “Eisen-Liga“ .
I watched your Channel grow for a year now , and you brought me to the Roman and Medieval History .
I thank you for that . :-)
Annnnnd, subscribed.
Thank you for mentioning Romania, my country!
Please do a segment on the iconic attic Helmets
The fact that you even ask the second and third question answers the first one.
Really interesting video!! But im really curious what song you use in your intros :D
Knights templar 1 from epidemic sound ;)
+Metatron thanks :D :D new favourite tune
Hans Henrik Engen Ye it's a good one :3
I can imagine someone doing it in a garrison or being the first people to storm the walls in a siege. Well rested and prepared, it might work very well.
metatron, you bring our joy of video games to another level of joy,
please tell us your opinion about the total war series
Great video, Metatron! But I have a question (kinda unrelated): People always talk about historical imagery as a means to understand what type of armor Roman soldiers wore and what weapons they fought with, yet they always seem to leave out the written historical articles from that period. Why is that? Why don't they get referenced that much?
Awesome channel learning a lot about weapon - armor history, Someone knows a channel like the metraton about Architectural, Siege Stuff, vehicles, machinery etc? thanks
Legend say Metatron will reply to this, btw nice video as always
Legen is rights :) and thank you ^^
+Metatron Thanks :D can you make a video aboout the difference between Marian reforms and before ?
Sick Jvkxb I have one where I discuss briefly about Marian reforms. You will find it in the video "50k special The Roman Army". It's a video which links to many other subvideos so there is a lot of content there
Great editing job when we saw the photos of him on the horse, but the crane that was used to winch him in his armor up onto it, well it was completely absent from the photos.
Ye, because I sliced it with my katana and in doing so I also cut time so I sent it back to the middleages ;)
maybe interesting to note that a mediavl knight (late period) with full plate armour would fight with a 2 handed weapon so the armor is more or less the first line of defenseve. wich makes it way more important for medieval fighters to have the 2 layers.
Another thing I was just thinking about is in regards to them wearing the armor all the time. A possible reason they might wear continually it is not just for fear of enemy attacks while they are digging ditches and chopping trees, it may be because if you laid the armor down while you did the work, you may well return after the work to find the armor missing and then what do you do during a battle? It could be enemies stealing it and it could also be fellow legionnaires either toying with you or actual thieves envious of your weapons.
Hey metatron, i don't suppose you could do a video in the near future about ancient Greek armour and how it evolved?
Since you mentioned Trajan's Column can you also make a video about dacians.I can't find anybody talking about them or ever be mentioned by historians other then Romanians and I'm kind of curious about your point of view on them and their warfare.Also nice video ;~)
I'd love to hear more about Lorica Squamata, namely the bronze type. Sorry if I talk too much about bronze to all y'all historical 'tubers, it just looks so much cooler (not temperature wise) than other armor/weapon types.
An episode on holy relics carried into warfare and on crusades would be nifty. And, maybe if the Japanese or other warring cultures had some kind of equivalents they would carry for morale or Godly protection.
7:00 eastern Roman cataphracts : “ you talking some mad shit for someone in charging distance.”
I would find it really interesting if you would Focus on special Battles.
f.e.: the battle against the korinthian troops under Hannibal at the end of the punic war
when are the rest of the darksouls armor analysis videos coming out? just wondering, also great vid as always
↑ 620gazza makes me feel so much like buying this game all about failing miserably constantly.
+Pc Genie oh do. it comes with my full recommendations. even if it makes you feel like suicide is a mercy compared to continuing this game
+Pc Genie oh do. it comes with my full recommendations. even if it makes you feel like suicide is a mercy compared to continuing this game
It really depends on the views. If that video doesn't get enough views I can't make the other parts, because I have to give priority to other videos. I hope I can continue that video, but in the mean time if you want me to make it, share it! :3
+Metatron tell me. in your personal opinion which is superior? the kite shield or the scutom?
I was just about to study :/ eh taking a break before even beginning is my specialty.
ahahah I totally understand
That is what I say everyday until I see all of my notifications on my iPad for CZcams.
Metatron you really need to do a video on the late Roman army .
Hey Metatron, what do you think of the game Rome : Total War ?
Until he answers your question with his opinion, I'll add my two cents. Exploding pigs, Druid units, and War Dogs are not historically accurate. (Don't even get me started on Egypt ;) lol ) But if you can find it (you may even already have it) get the mod Rome Total Realism. It corrects a lot of these inaccuracies in the original game and expands the map all the way to Bactria. Fantastic mod!
Well, as far as I know, the Romans deployed both war hounds and "exploding pigs", the latter being pitch-coated pigs that were set on fire and used to scare war elephants. They didn't really explode, nor they could be deployed in hundreds like in Rome:Total War, but they existed.
The "Arcani", on the other hand...
+James Davenport what about Rome 2?
Hoplites werebt that op
+Wahngott they have low amour and get destroyed with ranged weapons, they are only good in the phalanx, which they were
You claim that the lorica plumata was exclusively worn by emperors or generals. Where have you read this? As I understand it the plumata is a very rare find and given the scarcity of the source material it seems somewhat risky to make such bold assertions. In any case I enjoyed your video alot as always! Keep up the excellent work :)
history video...good made.
ok, here's a question, could you make a video about the ancient Slavic tribes and/or culture and/or weapons and stuff
I'll consider it thanks ^^
Hey there Metatron, I'm wondering when you intend on releasing/what your progress is on the video about the Tanegashima arquebus. I can't seem to easily find a great deal of detailed and visual information on matchlocks and am interested in if the Japanese versions have any difference from the originals from the Portuguese.
Incidentally I was also wondering if you happened to know how likely a Roman's physique would actually be like the surviving Roman statues we know of, especially in consideration of how people of modern times have quite a lot of trouble building such a muscular body without resorting to steroids and particularly specialized diets and the like.
I love metatron's videos
What is it you say when you salute? I'm a silly boy, and though it means nothing I salute you back. Of course I say nothing but do salute.
I always sleep well after seeing you and learning more and more. Keep those wings spread my friend. Doumo arigato gozai mashta (I know I screwed it up but you know what I mean)
Ottimo video, come sempre veramente interessante. Avrei una domanda, forse poco pertinente con l'argomento, ma visto che si é menzionata la lorica plumata... vorrei sapere se i generali e gli imperatori o consoli partecipassero effettivamente alle battaglie o si limitassero a muovere le truppe dalla cima di qualche collina. Ricordo di aver letto che la partecipazione attiva dei generali é una "moda" del medioevo, ma non ne sono completamente sicuro.
Can you do more videos about ancient greek armor and weapons pls?
Hi Metatron! Quick question: do you know if there's any substanstial difference in armor use based on the climate? I was wondering about it while watching this video because it's almost 40 degrees here in Sardinia right now, and I can't imagine wearing clothing, mail and plate without getting a heat stroke.
I've been interested in exactly this, but instead of short sleeves, more of a hauberk. It would look badass. I want to see a suit of armor made of Lorica Segmentata, Hauberk, and an Armet. A suit made of all different periods.
Could you make a video about the roman arm-armour thing? I just want to know more about it
Could you do a video on the evoltion of roman armour?
with ao much weight on them im surprised they didnt get heat stroke. how they could fight after a long march in the middeterenian hot enviorment is spectacular
In short; training. consider that a Roman legionnaire trained with swords twice the weight as their actual weapon, and were used to long force marching, they were normally so well conditioned, that an actual campaign was pretty normal
So can anyone explain why we always associate Rome with red? Did the Romans really love the color red or what?
Everyone country has had their colors. Red and gold to Rome was like Red, White, and Blue to America.
+Cajun Guy I suppose, but america has the advantage of artificial dyes and mass produced flags.
+risker34 The Romans used tons of red and yellow because those were the easiest dyes to make during that time period
risker34 every country through history has done this, Modern America is just an example. Flags, mascots, anthems, these are not modern ideas, they are ancient.
+Cajun Guy but the modern concept of every legionnaire wearing red tunics with red shields and having red be a very common color in civilian life seems far fetched to me, not on a concept or ideological level but on a logistical level. Making some flags is one thing equipping both the entire military and the civilian populace is no easy task especially before mass production was introduced.
Hm, maybe I can catch up now: first: thanks for the vid, this was a question of mine too. Second: Could you recommend any sources on ancient chinese history - especially the Wei-Dynasty and their military. Whenever I type in "Wei" in Google I just get a map of the three kingdoms or pictures of chinese models. Even when searching for chinese, the outcome isn't very different. Third: this is maybe the least improtant thing here, but since I'd rather not rely on Google Translator: What's the roman expression for "heavy infantry"?
Okay but what about the cavalry men on the pillar tomb from Arlon in belgica? They show shoulder plates of the segmentata worn with mail or leather armor? Was disappointed not to hear you mention that.
I hope you can get back to me on this since this is a 4 year old video I don’t know if you’ll see this.
Regarding the importance of cavalry, yes i agree that infantry became the main part of the army, but still importance was laid on the cavalry, as auxiliary horsemen (german, persian and Numidian) won several important battles, such as the battle of Alesia (caesar and german horsemen broke the eastern Gauls and then served as reinforcements to the western front, where he broke the Gauls and won the battle) not to mention the Scottish campaign, where a secret cavalry ambush won the day. not to mention Germanicus also made widespread use of cavalry in his victories against the germans. in the east, auxiliary cataphract were adopted against the parthians and remained in high use in land battles right into the end of the Sassanid empire.
salve
there is an relief in Arlon, Musée Luxembourgeois which depicts roman cavalry. They seem to wear segment shoulders on a mail body. what is your take on that?
thank you for your amazing channel
oh and buon ferragosto
during trajan time the segmentata was upgraded with the gladius wielding arm being fully covered in plate
I like your approach about the practicality and effectiveness. I can't see any reason to wear a mail armor under Roman plate like it is shown in modern media because it just dont add any protection for real. if it were some sort of mail skirt and or a long sleeved shirt, okay, I could see the point. But a short sleeved shirt? If someone manages to crush your plates, the mail will just get int the way. If they somehow penetrate it, the perforating tool either has so much force it will go through the mail or it will already be slow enough that there isnt any real gain over the protection already provided by the padding and clothing layers. The few cases where a weapon has just enough energy left in the already unlikely event of penetrating the plates and to go trough the padding to cause meaningful harm but not through hypotheticalt mail are so theoretical that it makes absolutely no sense to make that standard practice and issue the extra armor. And to make that even more unlikely, AFAIK it is not like the Romans were facing mid or late medieval steel grade weapons either. I cant see any use for it.
Metatron, can you please make a video on historical uses or serrated swords (flamberges)?
@ Metatron as someone who served in the military, going overboard on layers that you wear is not only silly but dangerous when you have to march all day. I can see how the fabric and the leather padding could absorb moister and therefore allow cooling to an extent. the plate would make you hotter but it's just one layer. adding a layer of mail which would be just as bad as the plate in terms of heat management turns a silly idea into a deadly one. they would literally have died from heatstroke. you build up a lot of heat on a march even if it's only for a few hours
Metatron, I have a question, and I hope, you will create an yt for it sometime :) In schools we hear that mongols were especially superior against european knights mainly because knights were focused on taking hostages, instead killing enemies in battle. Could you please clarify this?
Dear Metatron,
How did the legionaries go about protecting their arms during a battle? Neither the Segmentata nor the Hamata (nor the Squamata) covered biceps, triceps, and forearms. Apart from the Scutum, the "primary defense", as you call it, acting as a form of protection for your arms, was there any other form of protection that was used -- perhaps leather sleeves? I just think the exposure of limbs is potentially a huge problem...
In some ways, from the way I see it, if there could be any practical use of the Segmentata/Hamata combination, it would be to utilize a full-sleeved Hamata for protecting your arms.
What do you think?
P.S. Great videos, by the way :)
Can you do a review on Ryse Son of Rome please
I wonder if legionaires had to wear reflective belts all the time when in camp. Reflective belts save lives!
I love your videos, however I have a question.
Whydo you use that filter over your videos?
Which filter?
There seems to be a kind of blurry filter, it could be my weird eyesight though :)
***** Ah no it's the soft contrast, and I put it because I like it xD
+Metatron Yes thats what I ment.
Thanks for replying :)
@Metatron May I humbly ask you to do a video on the differences between a rank and file Roman Soldier and a Praetorian Guard? Equipment, purpose, extra.
Praetorians are always the bad guys in video games and movies
+Andrew Gu While that is true, I'm trying to figure out who they were historically, rather than the Hollywood version.
Ok now I want Lorica Plumata
You see, we’ve got the hakuna Matata connected with iron rings around the waist.
I am from romania.adamclisi and column of Traian is from 110-117.whay roman armoure chanched after dacian wars.because falx and sica thracian.the falx and sica îs national weapon of thracians.good job You make my brother,fratelo.
Mail under plate always seems such a waste. Apart from covering joints, it basically adds nothing but weight. The advantage of mail is its flexibility versus plate, but you lose that flexibility by wearing plate over it. No wonder that later, more advanced armour had plate sections replacing mail (as in Lindybeige's latest purchase) or were articulated plates with scraps of mail for places like armpits.
KnightErrant has a really good video on this topic. A lot of knights simply wore mail sleeves instead of the full shirt. Even with the full shirt though, it's pretty well distributed. He also talks about this in a video about how much his full kit weighs.
Mail has one advantage though, it shifts and moves about in itself. I could imagine that when struck with a blunt weapon (hammer, mace etc.) this might give an advantage over just plate and gambison (so mail, plate and gambison), as the movement of the mail dissipates energy.
well most swords where more slicing then any thrusting attacks so chain armor pretects aginst slashes while your shield pretect against thrusting attacks
Knyght Errant has also mentioned that the reason why he wears a full mail shirt underneath his plate armor is because he only wears a breastplate and not a full cuirass, so he has no back protection on his torso. So in order to protect his back with more than just a gambeson he wears a full mail shirt in order to have some metal protecting his back. As both you and KE most knights and men at arms would wear either mail sleeves or arming doublets with mail voiders because that's all you'd need when wearing plate armor with a full cuirass.
Not really, mail was good against sharp weapons, protecting you from cuts and thrusts but wasn't that effective against bludgeoning weapons because it sits right up against your body. Plate armor was more effective because it was rigid and there was some space between the armor and your body, the armor itself would probably take the hit worse than mail would but you'd feel it less than you would wearing mail.
I wore aketon, maille, under lamellar for years.
I like this game cuz it's historical fiction I can Overlook what real and what's fake as long as what's fake is practical like wearing chainmail under segmented plate armor