Hi Kim. Having competed at the 1992 and 1994 olympics and then seen the dramatical change in the technique of double poling and its increased importance in the sport, I think you are spot on. The modern technique looks as if it is a question of hammering down at the beginning , but it really isn't. The really good skiers do place the poles quite sternly at the 'catch' but they wait with the main push until the poles are pointing more backwards. We were very much aware in the 90-ies of the biomechanical importance of getting as much force into the poles only once they were pushing backwards (not downwards) to propel you forwards (graph at 2:56 shows the importance of this clearly). But what we didn't think about then, is that with a more upright body posture, you can more easily increase the frequency of the poling and at the same time reduce the stress on your spine caused by the more deep forward lunge that was popular at the time. I think we also underestimated the strenght and stamina of the stomach muscles. It wasn't really until the Swede Staffan Larsson poled the entire Vasaloppet in 1994 and almost won, after being unable to use his legs for a whole year due to a knee injury, that people started to think that proficiency in double poling really is a game changer.
Great comment. I'm just a recreational skier, but some guys who have skied the Vasaloppet have told me to think of the hip hinge movement as the initial driving force and to have you arms do the main push when your down. For me that has been a good clue.
A very well presented point. The area under that graph really drives it home. That sharp peak of energy lost in the joints. I hadn't even considered the angle of the force. At pole impact, you're lifting yourself off the snow rather than pushing forward. Reminds me of paddling; where overextending your stroke only ends up lifting the water and pulling you downwards.
Hi Kim - Thanks for this video - While I am not a competitive nordic skier, I do hope to do a marathon soon. With arthritis in the wrists, thumbs, and feet, I have adjusted my skiing to accommodate pain in these areas, so slamming down my poles while double-poling isn't for me, as I hold the poles in a really weird way due to carpal tunnel syndrome. Sounds bad, but NO ! - The pleasure of being in the woods and moving trumps the pain every time and my doc says "just keep doing it". Thanks for all the videos which help me understand what I can do to make skiing even more fun, while ensuring I keep from harming myself while doing it. You might be surprised by how many seniors benefit from your videos. Thanks !
Is it not very popular yet? I'm getting started with XC skiing and so far I've used front crawl swimming technique applied to the poling, which goes against the "smashing the poles against the ground" technique, but it feels more powerful and allows me to do some long strides with less energy.
I wonder if the very force of pounding the poles into the snow is what is creating a deflection of some kind that inhibits gaining the full force of power throughout the poling phase. Or something like that :)
One day I was very surprised when I noticed that my skis were covered with snow, and much more than that of other skiers. And then I noticed how fountains of snow fly up from under my ski poles. ... And immediately remembered this video.
As I find it, just enough hammering is needed as a preparation for furter force application to avoid pole slip-off in icey conditions and especially in roller skiing on aspalt... One needs to ensure it is securely planted in. // This year we were skiing barely 1cm above the asphalt and that was noticeable... just HAD TO hammer it down. :).
It would be really interesting if you could somehow combine the pole force with the angle of the pole to create a new chart showing the force *pushing the skier forward* over time. That would really emphasize that the bulk of the work is done later in the cycle.
Interesting, Michael. Poles angles lead to issue of pole length. Are double poling poles longer because double poling benefits from a narrower pole angle?
Perhaps longer contact at the back of the stroke and less at the front... www.ski-lines.com/articles/23164-study-looks-at-different-pole-lengths-for-double-poling
I roller ski all off-season, mainly because it is my favorite form of exercise, and I try not to hit to hard, because it is hard on the hands and wrists. But you have to dig in or the pole does not bite, and pole slips and does nothing. When skiing in snow, the impact does not need to be nearly as hard. I hope roller skiing doesn't train me to hit to hard! So I imagine the optimal pole force may be different for roller skiing and real skiing.
Who knew there was double pole mythology! And I had no idea that this was the worlds most popular one. How do they measure popularity of double poling myths anyway?
Please provide the references (journal articles, raw data etc) used to generate the Force by Time graph. Have you generated a Force by Velocity graph? Thanks
As usual with videos from Kim, Kai and Chris, very good content also in this video, but is it really your voice, Kim, or a computer's? I have never before heard you this machine-like and tiring to listen to.
It's probably because I was working from a transcript and trying to keep it under 5 minutes. Hopefully people will focus on the message and not hate the messenger.
Another sport RUINED by sports "science". Best example is mens tennis , they got them so strong the ball is INVISIBLE fast all they can do is exchange baseline slugs. Now skiing is circling the drain.
Hi Kim. Having competed at the 1992 and 1994 olympics and then seen the dramatical change in the technique of double poling and its increased importance in the sport, I think you are spot on. The modern technique looks as if it is a question of hammering down at the beginning , but it really isn't. The really good skiers do place the poles quite sternly at the 'catch' but they wait with the main push until the poles are pointing more backwards. We were very much aware in the 90-ies of the biomechanical importance of getting as much force into the poles only once they were pushing backwards (not downwards) to propel you forwards (graph at 2:56 shows the importance of this clearly). But what we didn't think about then, is that with a more upright body posture, you can more easily increase the frequency of the poling and at the same time reduce the stress on your spine caused by the more deep forward lunge that was popular at the time. I think we also underestimated the strenght and stamina of the stomach muscles. It wasn't really until the Swede Staffan Larsson poled the entire Vasaloppet in 1994 and almost won, after being unable to use his legs for a whole year due to a knee injury, that people started to think that proficiency in double poling really is a game changer.
Great comment. I'm just a recreational skier, but some guys who have skied the Vasaloppet have told me to think of the hip hinge movement as the initial driving force and to have you arms do the main push when your down. For me that has been a good clue.
A very well presented point. The area under that graph really drives it home. That sharp peak of energy lost in the joints.
I hadn't even considered the angle of the force. At pole impact, you're lifting yourself off the snow rather than pushing forward. Reminds me of paddling; where overextending your stroke only ends up lifting the water and pulling you downwards.
@Gideon Jonathan yup, I've been using flixzone for years myself =)
Same as rowing. Can't just smack the water. Have to enter smoothly. Then pull.
As a beginning skier, this is a very nice explanation and has helped me understand double poling.
Hi Kim - Thanks for this video - While I am not a competitive nordic skier, I do hope to do a marathon soon. With arthritis in the wrists, thumbs, and feet, I have adjusted my skiing to accommodate pain in these areas, so slamming down my poles while double-poling isn't for me, as I hold the poles in a really weird way due to carpal tunnel syndrome. Sounds bad, but NO ! - The pleasure of being in the woods and moving trumps the pain every time and my doc says "just keep doing it". Thanks for all the videos which help me understand what I can do to make skiing even more fun, while ensuring I keep from harming myself while doing it. You might be surprised by how many seniors benefit from your videos. Thanks !
That's wonderful to hear!
This was great. All this study needs to be done in SpikeBoarding as well.
Great video! This really shows why strength training is getting more important for XC-skiers.
Is it not very popular yet? I'm getting started with XC skiing and so far I've used front crawl swimming technique applied to the poling, which goes against the "smashing the poles against the ground" technique, but it feels more powerful and allows me to do some long strides with less energy.
I wonder if the very force of pounding the poles into the snow is what is creating a deflection of some kind that inhibits gaining the full force of power throughout the poling phase. Or something like that :)
One day I was very surprised when I noticed that my skis were covered with snow, and much more than that of other skiers. And then I noticed how fountains of snow fly up from under my ski poles. ... And immediately remembered this video.
I like this video, good explanation of double poling.
Would love to see some of the best butterfly and freestyle swimmers tested at double polling
Yes, they should be good. The arm motion (while pushing) is very similar.
As I find it, just enough hammering is needed as a preparation for furter force application to avoid pole slip-off in icey conditions and especially in roller skiing on aspalt... One needs to ensure it is securely planted in. // This year we were skiing barely 1cm above the asphalt and that was noticeable... just HAD TO hammer it down. :).
Best explanation of body movement I've ever seen...and I am 80...
Great stuff! Bang on.
It would be really interesting if you could somehow combine the pole force with the angle of the pole to create a new chart showing the force *pushing the skier forward* over time. That would really emphasize that the bulk of the work is done later in the cycle.
That sounds like a very math-y challenge...
Interesting, Michael. Poles angles lead to issue of pole length. Are double poling poles longer because double poling benefits from a narrower pole angle?
Possibly longer poles allow for more time in contact with the snow = more time to push?
Perhaps longer contact at the back of the stroke and less at the front... www.ski-lines.com/articles/23164-study-looks-at-different-pole-lengths-for-double-poling
I roller ski all off-season, mainly because it is my favorite form of exercise, and I try not to hit to hard, because it is hard on the hands and wrists. But you have to dig in or the pole does not bite, and pole slips and does nothing. When skiing in snow, the impact does not need to be nearly as hard. I hope roller skiing doesn't train me to hit to hard! So I imagine the optimal pole force may be different for roller skiing and real skiing.
Poling sure is different on pavement versus on snow. It helps to regularly sharpen your pole tips.
@@NordicSkiLab I think with hammering you'll end up with tendon issues when rollerskiing like tennis elbow. Sharp tips as you say.
“If you made it this far, you must be pretty keen on XC skiing.”
Me, staring at the screen 5 minutes later wishing they’d keep talking.
Who knew there was double pole mythology! And I had no idea that this was the worlds most popular one. How do they measure popularity of double poling myths anyway?
Love it!. This makes a lot of sense to me!
Ottimo video soddisfatto delle spiegazioni visive. Ciao grazie
seems obvious - the vector force is primarily downward initially, not backward which is where it pushes you.
Makes sense
Please provide the references (journal articles, raw data etc) used to generate the Force by Time graph. Have you generated a Force by Velocity graph?
Thanks
Check the credits at the end of the video.
Woah, you guys are Canadian!
I guess that means you love Canadians!
nice. thanks.
Who new?? Very Interesting
great video
As usual with videos from Kim, Kai and Chris, very good content also in this video, but is it really your voice, Kim, or a computer's? I have never before heard you this machine-like and tiring to listen to.
It's probably because I was working from a transcript and trying to keep it under 5 minutes. Hopefully people will focus on the message and not hate the messenger.
Cross Country Ski Technique -- OK, then the transcript was a little too long, I think. I do not see any reason to hate the messenger for that.
Double poling is not classic cross country skiing. It is just double poling, there must be the whole complex of movements of xc skiing.
I just watched a 40km cross country skiing race in which they were double poling from start to finish.
Another sport RUINED by sports "science". Best example is mens tennis , they got them so strong the ball is INVISIBLE fast all they can do is exchange baseline slugs. Now skiing is circling the drain.
My god it's so hard to follow this robotic monotone voice.. Try more casual way
Valdis Ozols agreed
i thought it was female Microso Sam
Valdis why don't you start up your own website with contents and we'll listen to you then