When D&D Attempted to Write a Lord of the Rings Sequel
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- čas přidán 23. 02. 2024
- In this video we explore the complicated history between Dungeons and Dragons and the Lord of the Rings, as well as a time when new novels set in Middle Earth could have been written!
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Allot of people say that Christopher Tolkien was a brat most of the time. But in reality he only wanted to protect his fathers work and legacy and of course the world of middle earth from being manipulated and corrupted by companies and corporations. That's my take on it really.
I have never heard anyone call Christopher a "brat."
Very wise of him to do
I don't know anything at all about Christopher Tolkien, but I do feel like that's what hos dad would have wanted. He definitely wouldn't want Middle Earth to be commercialized and it always seemed to me that he wasn't overly fond of other peoples' interpretations.
As much as I love Peter Jackson's LotR films, to be honest, I think J.R.R. Tolkien would fond them disappointing.
But, these are just my guesses based on the little I know about him through interviews and letters.
Christopher went overboard with it though. He treated JRRT's work like it was holy writ, and went against his own father's position on it by refusing to let anyone adapt even the slightest bit of Middle Earth material that JRRT had not sold himself. His heirs have continued with the overprotectiveness, but have also been willing to sell scraps of work to Amazon not because it was the highest bidder, but because of all that merchandising $$$, and been very cynical about the whole thing.
Only two months after the Rings of Power came out, the Downfall of Numenor was published to capitalize on it. Whatever you think of the quality of the series, it certainly lacked for JRRT's source material, and sure could have used that. It didn't get it.
So yeah, I have a mixed opinion of CRT.
@@squamish4244 _>"went against his own father's position on it by refusing to let anyone adapt even the slightest bit of Middle Earth material that JRRT had not sold himself"
A bit of trivia: If you wonder why Rings of Powers is this bizarre fanfiction, it also ties to the rights issue. Amazon wanted to clearly adapt the Sirmarillion but too late realized their deal is with Middle Earth Enterprises and not Tolkien Estate. And MEE does not own rights to Sirmarillion. So they had to make a show based on a *summary* in one of appendixes to Lord of the Rings.
I would agree to an extent, but there is plenty of information in the Lord of the Rings appendices that Middle-Earth Enterprises and in extent Amazon did have.
Then the Amazon directors of Rings of Power then continued to ignore all that information they did have and make that abysmal show. Thank goodness almost all Tolkien fans everywhere see the show as a fanfuction or not part of Tolkien's legendarium.
@@loremaster8158 Honestly, I don't think Amazon wants the full rights to the Silmarillion. As it is they can make any changes to the lore they want and when fans complain they just say "we don't have the rights for that", as well as calling the fans racist/sexist/homophobic.
@@TRivan-kx2bi I’m sure white dudes are not the only ones eating money from calling fans insane boys
As much as I would love an expansion of lord of the rings. I respect Christopher in wanting to preserve his father's work. Because we all know companies do not solely care. They only care about the money and how to get more of it. Even now with Amazon doing ROP I can see why they are so tight on wanting to sell. Nothing comes good when money is invovled.
It sure makes you wonder what could have been if it attracted the right people to broaden and flesh out the setting of Arda. But I think if it had happened. eventually less talented minds would try to have their say on what should or shouldn't be canon to Middle-earth, and ultimately deviating from the spirit of the original works.
tolkien attempted to write a sequel to lotr that most people dont know about, but put it down after only 13 pages...
Well he started a sequel but never got beyond the first few pages
@@MatthewCaunsfield you're correct sir - i didn't mean to word it that way - ill edit
@@ekurisona663 Hey no worries, I only know because I watch other LOTR channels 👍
@@MatthewCaunsfield You're both forgetting to mention the reason why he didn't actually continue it, he felt that making a sequel following the natural course it would have taken (After Aragorn's death the peace he helped to set up would be destroyed from within, the kings descended from him start turning into 'Denethor or worse', Gondorian kids start pretending to be Orcs for fun and some of the adults start cults worshipping Sauron) was depressing and that it was better to just leave the original story as is.
It is an interesting statement about the need to be vigilant of our own tendency for returning to evil ideology. As depressing as it would have been I feel if Tolkien had written it, it would have been as culturally significant as stuff like 1984 or To Kill a Mockingbird. It certainly would have choked (though not completely stop) the Neo-Nazi and Neo-Communist movements
What an amazing writer that can inspire what most would consider to be one of the most interesting conspects of games of all time.
Gary Gygax was NOT inspired by D&D. He was more of a fan of Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Jack Vance and Robert E Howard. The Tolkien material ended up in there because of other people in the play group.
Tolkien was listed as one of the inspirations of the official Dungeons and Dragons material and though Gygax had stated his apparent dislike of the Trilogy at some point, I would argue that in fantasy the Lord of the Rings is such a behemoth, that everything and anything succeeding it is influenced heavily one way or another! Not to mention I’m fairly certain he disliked it on a technical level, as in Tolkien’s writing style as opposed to the fantasy ideas and tropes that D&D eventually used as well.
Plus, looking away from the incredibly similar or sometimes even outright same creatures, including the orcs, the overall feeling of a party or fellowship going on a fantasy adventure together against insurmountable odds to defeat evil while strengthening their bonds, is also an important theme of both.
Definitely an interesting discussion. Thank you very much for watching!!
@@InkandFantasyNot to cause an argument, but much of the “Tolkienesque” things included in early D&D were done so on behalf of other people, not because Gary wanted them there. Gary was an out-and-out disliker of Tolkien’s idea of fantasy, and I’m sure anyone who played at his table would tell you there was no similarities between the way he ran his games and the world or works of Tolkien.
And to say that all things fantasy are directly inspired by LotR is about the same as saying all things sci-fi are inspired by Star Wars. Just because LotR is incredibly popular and influential, doesn’t mean it’s the source of inspiration for *everything.* There are plenty of things that came before Tolkien, and plenty of things that came after. There is an infinite world of resources out there, and to say they *all* tie back to the same thing is lazy at best, and dishonest at worst.
I’m an *avid* lover of Tolkien and his works, and a huge TTRPG fan as well, but I really wish people would stop peddling the false narrative of Gary being inspired by Tolkien’s works.
Hell, I don’t even much care for Gary himself, but it’s worth keeping the record straight on this.
D&D was inspired by LotR but D&D wasn't a Gygax solo production. Dave Arnesen was a co-author of 0ed and there were plenty of other people between his group and Gygax's who were involved in building the game, including the process of running dungeons. By the time of first edition AD&D it was very much a work with many authors and Gygax included their influence as well as his own when he wrote Appendix N which is where LotR is explicitly referenced.
@vore Yes, Tolkien is a big figure in fantasy, certainly the main one in modern literature, but he didn't invent the genre. But it's also true that LoTR elements are in the early versions of D&D. Take the Elf in the first d&d, before they put class and race apart. That Elf is as "Tolkienean" as it gets... fair, human-like, naturally gifted with magic. Before Tolkien, the concept of elves was very different, akin to goblins and other mischievous spirits. Some of those concepts were used by Gary & Anersen.
@@cirobohrer1483 I would never argue the existence of Tolkienesque elements in D&D. They certainly exist and always have. I’m arguing that *Gary* was not himself inspired by Tolkien, and did not run Tolkienesque games at his table.
He was firmly entrenched in the worlds of the Sword & Sorcery genre-Frits Lieber, Jack Vance, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith.
*Those* were the authors that inspired Gary, and whose work he attempted to emulate in his own games and ideas of how fantasy should operate.
love the new direction in the videos!! keep it up ❤❤
Thank you!!
That went about as well for them as I'd expect.
The case of dungeons and dragons and collaboration between them and the Tolkien family will be one of the what if's of history. 🤔
This is new to me, very interesting! 👍
D&D co-creator Dave Arneson was more influenced by Tolkien than was Gygax who was more of a fan of sword & sorcery fiction.
Since the folding of TSR we have seen a pair of conversions for D&D 5E of The One Ring Roleplaying Game: First, Adventures in Middle-earth (Cubicle 7); and, currently, The Lord of the Rings Roleplaying (Free League).
At this point, Lord of the Rings is unironically becoming the Scriptures.
Can't be scripture if it's under copyright.
Would be pretty ironic if someone made a new religion out of it (Tolkien was a devout Catholic)
In Eru we trust. All praise be to Manwe and Varda and all the host of the Ainur.
There is a LotT tabletop. I've seen the books a while back. Not sure if "official" but the production value indicate so.
There is a couple of them at this point, the most recent being The One Ring.
yep, its called The One Ring, it doesnt call itself Official but it is using the Lord of the Rings name and characters/locations/maps directly included. i have the Second Edition that came out 2 or 3 years ago and has copyrights naming MEE
@@fondajames would be nice if they contacted Tolkien Estate as well so that they could use lore from Silmarillion and all the other post-mortem books in addition to The Hobbit and LotR that works licensed under Middle-Earth Enterprises can use
@@SMiki55 The One Ring Roleplaying Game was developed by Sophisticated Games. They partnered originally with Cubicle 7 for TOR and a 5E conversion called Adventures in Middle-earth. When C7 lost the license, Sophisticated Games partnered with Free League which has published TOR 2E and their own 5E conversion The Lord of the Rings Roleplaying.
Glad they didn't do books. But too bad they didn't get thr license for gaming back then. If they had, they might have been sitting pretty when the LOTR films came out.
Oh man, I used to have quite a bit of MERP stuff. Figures and modules and Tolkien Qust "Choose Your Adventure" books. I ended up trading it all for some swords (includin Sting). I probably should have held onto it. I still have all my D&D stuff though.
Do you recall whether they were any good?
I thought D & D meant Dan and Dave🤷🏼♂️🤓😎✌🏻
I was so confused when people refer to directors of Game of thrones as D&D . I was thinking "wait Game of THrones in Dungeons and Dragon Universe ?"
How'd they get past the Orc conundrum?
Same as elf, dwarf goblin etc. already existent.
I'm not sure Orcs existed before Tolkien
I ended finding it in historical reference- much to my surprise
Grr @ not being able to upload screenshots
Yikes! I love Lord of the Rings, and Tolkien is my hero. I also love the Jackson movies. However negotiating the rights seems like a nightmare. One is just better off having an original fantasy series at that point. This doesn't have to be about Middle Earth. DND has the Forgotten Realms. Magic the Gathering has Dominaria. World of Warcraft has Azeroth etc. I look forward to the day when Tolkein's works will become public domain. People can use them freely, and there is nothing that the Tolkien Estate can do about it. As old as those books are, it will probably be another few decades. Steamboat Willie got into public domain this year. Being a Disney fan, I was over the moon about that.
Who would have thought Lorraine Williams made any good decisions?
Iron Crown Enterprises had the RPG gaming rights through the 1980s and much of the 1990s, and it was a fantastic game, but Iron Crown eventually went bankrupt and those gaming rights were snapped up by Tolkien Enterprises.
Honestly, considering how bad Hollywood has become in recent years and how bad Rings of Power was, I hope the Tolkien Estate just adopts a policy of refusing all collaborations. Just let Tolkien's work be and away from the vultures.
When The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings books get into the public domain expect a lot of furry fanfiction for redesigns like The Hobbits soon 😅
Gambling machine games? Gross!
So what royalties did Tolkien pay for elves, dwarves, hobbits, ents, orcs, etc? Surely Tolkien didn't invent these himself?
He invented the hobbits, ents and essentially the orcs, as well as the balrogs, and the elves and dwarves were not an intellectual property owned by anyone, so no royalties needed!
@@InkandFantasy orcs, elves, dwarves have origins from folklore story tellers so Tolkien used them to make his fortune and didn't pay a cent. Expecting TSR to pay him when he didn't pay anything is really hypocritical
To be very fair, dwarves and elves for example were absolutely nothing like Tolkien’s elves and dwarves. If you ask me, especially for the elves, he essentially made something entirely new while keeping the name, which is why a “Tolkien elf” is a popular thing to call them. Also, keep in mind, Tolkien had already passed away by the time of the lawsuit, it was the Tolkien Enterprises that held the movie rights that went after DnD and not Tolkien or the Tolkien Family!
@@InkandFantasy i understand the two different points. But Tolkien taking the idea and miappropriating cultural folklore; but never paying is unethical.
The business side of D&D really ruined the industry. D&D should have just shared the profits with Tolkien, and Tolkien should have shared profits with the cultures he stole ideas of elves, dwarves, and orcs from
Kids go berserk on such Harry Potter junk:
It scared and frightened my nephew of trees so ironically today he works as a mud soldier brainwashed by Heinlein type ROTC.