Kaladin: Windrunners and Skybreakers are natural enemies. Like Windrunners and Dustbringers. Or Windrunners and Elsecallers. Or Windrunners and Windrunners! Damn Windrunners they ruined Roshar!
I study ethical theory (with an emphasis on utilitarianism) and my favourite character is Kaladin, so the interactions between Jasnah and Kal are always super captivating for me. Jasnah's philosophy is potentially one of the most honest representations of classical utilitarianism I've seen in fiction. Her lesson in WoK with the thieves is a wonderful scene. I'm excited for her book, I want to spend more time inside her head
On the topic of Jasnah/Hoid. I always read Jasnah as not only Ace, but also Aromantic, and Jasnah's relationship with Hoid really reads a lot like how some of my relationships as an Aro person have gone. There's not much difference between a close friend and a partner for me, and I get that from Jasnah's POV. The other thing is that is just seems like another part of her life where Jasnah is getting what she wants from Hoid (cosmere knowledge) by using what tools she has available.
I was surprised how much they all agreed on their opinions about Hoid x Jasnah. I knew some people disliked it, but I didn't know the opinion was quite this widespread. I was expecting some people on the podcast to argue for, and others against it. As an as an asexual who's in a hetero relationship that's not **perfect,* I really liked that relationship between them. I even went and read it to my husband lol. I don't disagree with the things they found problematic, I just think it's okay to depict a relationship that hasn't yet reached the "happy end" phase. They're still learning how to do this. My husband has the same trouble as Hoid with wrapping his mind around the idea of asexuality. It's not that we've never talked about it, it's just that some things are very ingrained, and the default mindset is hard to just switch off.
@@animalobsessed1 I can't imagine a problem with Hoid and Jasnah. He's the precise kind of person that would intellectually stimulate her, and she's enormously practical. If sleeping with Hoid grants her more access to information, it's an easy choice.
I really thought that the Jasnah/Hoid relationship wasn't something that either of them were expecting. I don't think Jasnah had spent a lot of time thinking about a relationship with anyone. But I did definitely think she was not at all interested in men
Re: Jasnah's Sexuality; I didn't want to make a big deal out of this in the "Queerness in the Cosmere" episode because I do agree with Shannon and Alyx's perspective to a large extent, but the way y'all have been explaining your critiques of Jasnah's relationship with Hoid has been rubbing me the wrong way in ways I find difficult to properly articulate. So fair warning, this may be kind of ramble-y only for me to arrive at a conclusion that appears to be the same, but I feel the distinction - however slight - is actually relevant. For relevant context: I am asexual and biromantic. As seems to have been the case for the majority of queer readers, I read Jasnah as definitely being queer before RoW came out, but unlike Shannon and Alyx, I did not necessarily peg her as WLW. Based on my own experiences with asexuality, she seemed to fit the general mold of a- or homo- or potentially even bi- sexual and/or romantic. For me personally, I really don't feel like Brandon set the expectation that Jasnah *wasn't* heteroromantic, I merely feel like he set the exception that she *was* queer. And those two things are not contradictory. I think this is ultimately where my biggest problem with your arguments come from. To me, it comes across as if you are saying that Jasnah isn't "queer enough" or something along those lines. 2:13:32 is the most relevant portion of the discussion to this point. Shannon says about Brandon that he is unwilling to write a queer character, but the character she's talking about is canonically asexual. She is queer. This argument feels particularly dissonant to me because Shannon also identifies as ace and I have absolutely no doubt that this wasn't the message she intended to send with her argument, but it's nonetheless the one that comes across to me each time she talks about it. It feels dismissive of the queerness of heteroromantic ace people to imply that a character of that orientation isn't "queer enough" and that the reason a person would write a character of this orientation is because they're unwilling to write an "actually" queer character. Again: I know this isn't what Shannon meant, it's just the way her argument has come across to me each time she's tried explaining it. The reason I was reluctant to bring this up in the "Queerness" episode though, is because all of the above does does not mean I think Jasnah's sexuality has been handled perfectly. While she is one of my favorite characters and I see a lot of the way I experience asexuality in her, I do ultimately agree that the specific execution of her relationship with Hoid was done poorly. Not necessarily because Brandon doesn't understand what sexuality he's written his characters to have, nor even because Hoid and Jasnah are necessarily a bad romantic pairing, but merely because Brandon doesn't yet know enough about asexuality to realize his blind spots in writing ace relationships. Ultimately, I agree that - based on the interactions we've seen between them - Jasnah and Hoid are much better as friends than as romantic partners. My hope is that in future books, Jasnah either comes to realize her understanding of her orientation wasn't quite complete and accurate and the two split because of that while remaining on good terms, or at least that the reason's Jasnah continues to engage in the relationship are better explored to better reflect the experiences and feeling of ace people. Your conversation about their relationship feeling transactional is something I completely agree with and I think that whole scene reveals the fact that Brandon still has trouble understanding why ace people could be interested in relationships. I think the distinction of "this relationship feels wrong because Brandon isn't committing to making the character queer" and "this relationship feels wrong because Brandon doesn't quite know how to write a queer character" is a really relevant one despite how similar they may seem. The former is a fundamental problem, but the latter is one where the only way to improve is by making mistakes initially. And Brandon has gone through this same process a few times with other types of representation: Adien was honestly pretty poor autism representation, but that stumble was necessary for us to eventually get Steris. Similarly, as Brandon has talked about a few times, making Vin the only woman in Kelseir's crew was an oversight that he didn't notice until it was pointed out to him, and is something he's actively worked to improve upon over the years as well. So contrary to Shannon, that scene doesn't ruin my trust that Brandon will handle queer characters better in the future; on the contrary - given his track record with other similar issues - the fact that he was willing to make this mistake gives me more confidence that he'll learn from this and seek to avoid this mistake again in the future. Side note: while I do wholeheartedly agree that Brandon is good at accidentally writing queer characters, but then struggles when he's trying to intentionally write queerness, I feel the point at 2:15:46 is an exception to that. Brandon has said before (see WoB number 3388) that his original inspiration for Singers was a culture where asexuality was the norm and sexuality was the exception. Venli and Rlain expressing themselves in ways that you relate to as an ace person is very much the intention there. All this is not to say I disliked this episode or even the specific arguments that Shannon (and to a lesser extent, Alyx) were making. I agreed with y'all about 99% of what you had to say here. It's just that the 1% where I disagree that I feel warranted some form of rebuttal. I hope all this didn't come across as too confrontational, I've really struggled with finding a way to articulate my thoughts on the matter.
Nice to meet a fellow asexual biromantic in the wild! :) You are correct that asexuality is enough for queer identity. I am very cognizant of what I was saying in the queerness ep perhaps more than this one, where I was careful to emphasize that Jasnah's aceness already makes her queer. And in this one, I like to think I was fairly clear about Jasnah's aceness being the queer experience that Brandon just didn't land. I'm sorry the way I also used the word "queer" as shorthand for being sapphic wasn't clear enough while I was speaking. It was an emotional moment, and not using the exact correct word for in the heat of the moment is something I'm giving myself grace for.
@@greywatch9365 Yeah, I completely understand all that. As I said, I knew that you didn't actually mean it in that way, but despite that knowledge it's still something I couldn't help but feel every time you used the word "queer" in that way. In many ways this comment here was built out of me trying to articulate my emotional response to an argument that I knew you weren't intending to make. I apologize for rambling on for so long, and I hope I didn't come across as too critical of you. Like I said, I agreed with the vast majority of what you had to say on the topic. Thank you for the reply!
I find it funny because I had never before heard that people used to think Jasnah would be into women. Although I have a boatload of queer friends, only one of them is asexual. I had this moment when I was reading WoR that I just thought "you know that sounds a lot like what John... Wait a minute...". Much later on when Navani started to talk about "the weird relationship" between her and Hoid I was just like "well it sure sounds like an asexual person who really likes someone else who got a crush on them..." It's kind of shocking for me to realize how few people thought of Jasnah that way, but then I remember that out of the enormous list of queer people I know (and ever since I realized I'm bi I have been to _a lot_ of meetings specifically with other queer people), a single one of them was asexual. Had I not been so close friends with that one example I know of it, I imagine I might not have thought of Jasnah being asexual either.
I read Jasnah's bewilderment at Shallan being "beholden to someone, particularly a man" more in terms of feminism rather than WLW. Jasnah is someone who doesn't fit into the status quo and eschews gender norms (outside of covering her safe hand) and is constantly doing "battle" with the men of her day who try to box her into a woman's place. Even her being harsher with men, I read as being a parallel to some expressions of feminism in the modern day as well.
I always also read it that her as a scholar most of the time she doesn't give a fuck about men who, lets remember, most of them do not even know to read cause its a "womanly art". So most men interactions, outside of her family that she loves, are not going to give her much to her eyes: she is not going to get an interesting debate out of them and most likely it will end up in them trying to woo her and she beinh an ace its not of interest to her either The being chained to a man quote they said many times in the episode to me it read "being chained to someone uneducated", like, so boring and annoying and wasteful to her eyes! I found the relationship with Hoid weird, but i can understand that in the intellectual department its probably stimulating the right stuff to her
Not to mention that Jasnah's personal experience with betrothal is fucking _Amaram._ She probably expected Shallan, without having met her cousin, to react to the proposal the same way she reacted when Gavilar tried to push her off to Amaram.
One thing that was missed on the debate about her killing the man in the alley. Is she wasn't just trying to do good. She also wanted "revenge" on the rapists. - "[...]Besides, men like those…” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before." - “You don’t know that. I sincerely wanted those men gone. A careless barmaid walking home the wrong way cannot protect herself, but I can. And I will.” And that ties to my theory on what happened to Jasnah when she was a child. I think Amaram raped Jasnah... she told Gavilar, and he instead of losing an ally, simply told her to keep quiet. And when she didn't... locked her up as insane.
Jasnah didn't MAKE those men attack her. Blaming her for "causing" the situation is akin to saying a woman who is assaulted was "asking for it" because of how she dressed.
Context: I'm an aromantic man who has no interest in relationships. I'm also an atheist. I always read Jasnah as not being interested in relationships - possibly because she's aro or just because it would involve having to conform to societal norms that she disliked. Her scene with Shallan where she was bewildered about the marriage was very relatable to me - especially because it was an arranged marriage with a man Shallan hadn't even met yet. When the rumors in RoW about Jasnah and Hoid came up, I assumed them to be overblown gossip. I wasn't super invested into Jasnah's sexual or romantic orientation, so I didn't actively hate it, but the her scene with Hoid did seem weird to me as well. Also, Jasnah is not the only atheist in the books. Kaladin is another, and probably the most common type you'd find in today's Europe: people who grow up with religion as something other people do and who generally don't spend much time thinking about it. Jasnah is different because of the highly religious environment she grew up in. She has a lot more detailed knowledge and well thought out opinions about religion, because her environment forced her to constantly justify her stance. Kaladin (just as me) has the privilege to just being able to live his life without facing much pressure. He doesn't care, because nobody is forcing him to care.
Yeah, Brandon describes Kaladin as agnostic but he definitely comes off more as atheist-agnostic since he was on the "What God would allow this kind of suffering to happen" train for a while and now that he's aware that Honor is dead and has a general idea of how the shards are, he doesn't do Dalinar's thing of assuming there's a God beyond them
Jasnah and Hoid. In a relationship. Well, it seems I am the only one who found it natural to occur, once Hoid started to open up.. Look at this perspective.. Jasnah is the foremost scholar of Roshar. It's foremost genius. And a woman. The natural attraction occurs only to someone who is atleast equal or better than her. Now, who can make her feel that he/she is her equal or even her superior? Of all the characters, I can only come up with one, and that's Hoid. But it's not just the understanding or the knowledge. It's also how much of an enigma he is. How he manages to manipulate everyone. Offcourse it would excite her to know someone like that, and not just that, but also go one step ahead and feel romantic towards it. Several times in rythm of war, she says it in her mind that what she is ready to give him is so much more than physical attraction or involvement. To her, her attraction at cognitive level and considering him a partner and discuss things with him as an equal, and confidence her secrets, and even except him not giving her a lot of secrets.. And she not minding it.. It all suggests that she is really into him. As for Hoid, he has wandered the cosmere, met dragons and different races and beings. He knows what he has in Jasnah... The way he behaves.. He is offcourse manipulative, but also appears genuinely attracted to her.. So, to me, it felt actually plausible, possible and even probable that they would fall in love. But it was dependent on Hoid opening up.
So... on the note of basically every radiant having some level of mental challenge they are working through... It kind of hit me as an oddly exact parallel to secret history where it was easier for Ruin/Kelsier to reach into peoples minds if they were already crazy. Perhaps this is almost a prerequisite to being a radiant more than just spren preference. perhaps it is quite literally the only way a spren could make first contact out of the blue. It wouldn't have to be the rule going forward as Radients have squires, because the spren will already have an in via the other radiant spren already bonded.
This actually explains a lot. I've been wondering how people without mental illness (like Lopen) can get Radiant powers, when it's pretty much stated that "cracks in the soul" are necessary to let the magic in. It also made no sense why all of our main Radiant characters just ~happened to have mental illness, AND be the first Radiants of their orders. (Or at least, without having connections to other Radiants of their orders.) Using those people as a sort of gateway just to get access to the wider variety of people in the Physical Realm, would be a logical explanation.
This has been confirmed. A damaged spirit web is FAR easier to Invest than an untouched web. “Snapping” from the Mistborn books illustrate this particularly well, in that to access allomantic powers, one must have endured some kind of harrowing experience in the form of a particularly brutal beating or the like.
About Jasnah's "lunacy"... What if what she thought of was literally what happened? What if _she_ remembers this crazy event in her childhood, but everyone else legitimately has absolutely no recollection of it? I was thinking about it because, well, true, this has only been mentioned two times, one was Jasnah herself and the other was one of the memories Dalinar recovered from Cultivation... What if, when healing Dalinar of the holes she put into his mind, Cultivation accidentally also fixed something else that has put a similar hole in all of the Kholin's brains?
What if this death rattle is referencing Jasnah and how far she is willing to go with her beliefs? "I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw."
About Jasnah and Hoid - I think both of them likely have trouble feeling strong attachment to each other. Hoid knows he needs to stay relatively disconnected from those on Roshar, since, as WOBs have stated, Hoid would give up everyone on Roshar if it meant Odium was contained. Hoid and Jasnah are not necessarily aligned, unless Jasnah is much more strictly Utilitarian than we think, so Hoid likely knows he needs to keep some kind of walls up between them if he wants to remain in a relationship. I don't think any relationship between these two would be 100% open or clear - but that's not saying it wouldn't be realistic for it to happen knowing the backgrounds of both characters. Hoid is bored with life to the point that he has to monologue about art and sneak weird poetic meter into his conversations to stay stimulated (the kind of thing Jasnah would be one of the only people, at least on this plain Hoid happens to have a strong interest in at the moment, to pick up on). Jasnah doesn't feel anyone on Roshar besides the veristitilians (maybe) is her intellectual equal, and is actively searching for information that Hoid has. Despite the fact that Hoid seems to want a more traditional sexual/romantic relationship and Jasnah doesn't seem to be invested in that sort of thing, I don't imagine that that stood between them in terms of getting together and - pardon the phrasing - brain banging all day. It's stated in the text that that intellectual stimulation is why Jasnah is attracted to Hoid, and that seems valid. I think some of her distant feeling can be attributed to what she just went through in the battle in that scene, though admittedly this could've been a more average scene of the two together to establish the relationship. I agree that the lack of communication about sex is something that seems off here, but there's the strong possibility that Jasnah is more indifferent to the activity rather than repulsed by it, and that Hoid doesn't really "Get" asexuality. Hoid's seen a lot of uncommon people, but he's also seen a looooot of the average over the thousands of years he's been alive - I think it's probably just as likely that he'd assume she's the same as not. I imagine he still defaults to "Everyone feels some kind of sexual mojo, I just have to find her 'thing' " (hence the hand kissing). Meanwhile, Jasnah may be annoyed by it at times, but clearly doesn't hate it. I think it's a mixture of Hoid wanting to find some way of making Jasnah happy in that manner, since he's a bit of a people pleaser, and Jasnah being generally indifferent to it. It could even be an intellectual argument in the same vein as Jasnah's atheism: She hasn't felt those sorts of feelings yet, but that doesn't mean they're impossible and she's willing to let Hoid experiment, since it seems to please him at least, and she likes keeping him around for the aforementioned brain banging. This could be a mis (or over) reading, but I genuinely kind of liked Jasnah and Hoid's spooky little brain bangin relationship. I'm not ace (my partner is), so if anyone who is wants to correct me on anything in here, or clarify something I'm misunderstanding, feel free.
Popping in here to say I agree with pretty much everything you say here and that nothing says that this relationship between Jasnah and Hoid is good or will continue to work. It could be extremely unhealthy and this is foreshadowing for something to come or like you said she could be letting Hoid do his thing because she sees this as the best chance to get information out of him.
As someone who is demisexual, the relationship with hoid makes sense to me. She mentions how appealing his mind is and how that makes them equals. It's not man vs woman is just the mind she is attracted too
My take on Jasnah's trauma/lunacy, is that they are linked, even if tangentially. Based on my own reactions to trauma and subsequent stress-induced episodes, it isn't farfetched to imagine she experienced a violation of her body/trust as a child, and was either locked up in either a response to her lunacy/to force compliance out of her, or the stress of the event, caused her mind to unravel. And perhaps she can't trust her own mind, because maybe the nature of her trauma(s) were not believed, or they were fuzzy and disjointed, as she recalled them. From my experience, sudden changes in children, and a distrust of caregivers means that something terrible has happened.
1:17:17 I always thought that the person who locked her up was Navani and not Gavilar. Not only does this part talk about Jasnah's change but also the coldness that Jasnah returned Navani afterwards. In Jasnah's chapter where she thinks about it she talks of how the people she loved could hurt her and my feeling was that Gavilar was never into the details of raising their children. (Spoiler for SA 5 Prologue) They didn't occupy much of his mind as he attempted to become a Herald and was more than willing to cut off close familial connections.
I kinda wished Brandon made Hoid ace too. He feel so far removed from common humanity in terms of age and experience that any sort of romantic sexual or even romantic relationship just feels kinda weird to me. Flirting yes, but not to sexual/romantic goals in mind. It would make the relationship between him and jasnah feel so much better if it was solely an intellectual bond
While I somewhat agree with you, I think this can be a very dangerous thing because of how easy it would be to mis-write. You don't want to imply that allossxuality is a fundamental part of being human or that asexual people are "broken" or "less human" because of it, which could be a very easy thing to imply using your logic here
I always read Hoid as Ace... not because he's inherently ace, but because I can't see him being attracted to anyone sexually or romantically to anyone else. They can't match him, he will just always be their superior in most things. Magic, age, intellect, etc. Personally, I take issue to the idea of Jasnah being on his level of intellect. She's a genius. Hoid is a Genius with a millennia of experience. That makes Hoid's genius worlds ahead of Jasnah's. Personally, I had an idea in my head that he may or may not have had a relationship back towards the beginning of his life, but that would have been the only time he could have an equal. Due to that he should currently be presented as ace regardless of whether he actually is or not.
I've seen a lot of complaints about asexual characters frequently being the ones you wouldn't want to date anyway. The aliens, the robots, the immortals. As someone else said, it paints asexuality as "less human" and can really backfire for the asexual community. So I don't think an asexual Hoid would have gone over well.
I have a feeling that Jasnah's lunacy is related to Gavilar Shenanigans. I don't know how early Gavilar was involved with the Sons of Honor, but we know they had some relation to the Envisagers. Perhaps before he was in the Sons of Honor proper, Gavilar was an Envisager. And perhaps he tried to "snap" Jasnah into surgebinding the way Teft described his family doing. Don't really have any proof, but it was a thought that crossed my mind.
I got to say, it only feels like jesnah and hoid got together for very important plot reasons that will come into play later, because otherwise it feels incredibly random and out of place
I think the situation around Jasnahs lunacy and how “no one remembers” is a supernatural thing. I’m wondering if literally no one remembers it. Whether by someone we don’t know that was involved or by Gavilar and Co.
1:32:00 I read that scene as her having assumed that Shallan was gay and she was surprised by her own misconception. Idk. I think people read a little too deep into it.
I've been looking everywhere for someone to talk about Jasnah and Autonomy and I can't find it. To me it seems pretty clear that (knowingly or not) she is an agent of Autonomy on Roshar. She's a strongly independent character who rejects many aspects of established society and forges her own path. She seeks to not let others define who she is and encourages others to do the same. Even the way she cares for her family by protecting them herself without involving them shows a desire to be independent even from those she cares for. In a world full of religion, she's an atheist. In a land full of kings, she becomes queen. She defies the status quo at every turn. One could even interpret the line about "being beholden to another, particularly a man" as discomfort at the idea of losing her autonomy. In Autonomy's letter to Hoid she says "we care not for his prison" and she is "pleased with our domains" but we know from Scadriel that this isn't true. She's constantly trying to expand her influence and doesn't at all mind intruding on other shards worlds. Trell was a ploy thousands of years in the making, it makes sense that Autonomy would have subtle seeds on Roshar while pretending to not care. My guess is that Jasnah's childhood trauma was influenced by Autonomy in some way and that made her into the person she is. Maybe its just my bias as I read all of Mistborn era 2 before starting Stormlight so I was prepped to look for a connection but I swear Jasnah even had a direct line about Autonomy in Rhythm of War. I listened to it in audiobook format so I can't easily find the quote (part of why I was looking for someone to talk about this). Of course all of this could just be a consequence of trying to simply write an independent character and reading too much into things. However, I've been trained by Brandon's work to never ignore the small details.
I love this, what a fascinating idea. This would be a really cool connection. Jasnah really does embody the idea of autonomy and independence. I had a look at my ebook - is this the Rhythm of War quote you're thinking of? "Jasnah took comfort in the idea that there was no plan, that everything was random. She said that a chaotic universe meant the only actions of actual importance were the ones they decided were important. That gave people autonomy." Not a capital A unfortunately but doesn't mean that there's nothing there. I really like the way you outlined this and tied things together - it's a well crafted theory, imo. - Jessie
@@17thShard Yup that was the quote! Thanks for finding that so quick, I've been trying to find it for days! No capital A but still stands out to me. Its in chapter 102 from Navani's point of view as she's reflecting on her faith. Not as good as directly from Jasnah's perspective but we can see that Jasnah has expressed, at least to her mother, that she would rather place her faith in people's autonomy instead of a traditional god of Roshar.
@@JessietheSleepyKoala Please let us know how it went! Or at least let me know, I don't think anyone else cares as much as I do! Also let me know if I AM the reason. That would make my day 🤣
I completely agree with this interpretation. It's why I hate her and think she was an amazingly written character before Brandon tried to make her "good" rather than "morally grey".
The idea of Jasnah’s making an alliance like the one with Hoid to gain something (or vice versa) is an interesting topic to explore, provided he explores it…
I think with Jasnahs relationships and identity we are growing with her. She’s finding who she is and what she feels. Maybe she was defined but now she’s changing. I think her reaction to shallans arranged marriage was pretty forward and modern day
As an Ace-spectrum person, I fully relate to Jasnah in the horrified to be married to a man thing. I don’t really see people sexually, so the idea of men is just more objective haha (like their tendency to cause a physical threat to women, etc). I also find that relationships do feel oddly transactional to me. I will defend Brandon making her Ace because we need that representation, it’s the only one I’ve ever really seen.
So Hoid wasn't listening to another's feelings re: Jasnah, eh. What a shock. And Jasnah wasn't listening to Hoid's needs, what a shock. Jasnah sought a Platonic relationship, not a perverted one.
I would really love if in book 5 jasnah amd hoid were like "hey so we tried this romance rhing and it's not the right thing but we still like each other as people" and emd up being besties not in a relationship.
i‘m a bit late here, but there‘s one other thing that really rubbes me the wrong way with jasnah/hoid: hoid has said (if I remember correctly) that he would destroy roshar if that meant to imprison odium. he would sacrifice the planet and everyone on it for the sake of the cosmere. why then does he start a relationship with someone on roshar? could this be intentional (from brandon) to have hoid struggle with his decisions? or is it just a coincidence that hoid‘s main motivation on roshar (destroy/imprison/stop odium) may dirrectly be a problem for this new relationship?
IIRC, there was a WOB where Brandon stated that as of the events of stormlight archive, Hoid IS stuck on Roshar himself (this is probably related to Design, but maybe not). So when he says that he would be willing to destroy roshar if that was necessary to imprison Odium, he is in the same vein saying he is willing to screw himself over to imprison Odium. And if he is willing to screw himself over to imprison Odium, it's not that weird that he's willing to screw over other people he personally cares about/loves for the same result.
When talking about Jasnah and her group of scholar friends I think it's important to remember that this isn't our world try to put ourselves in the perspective of how, at least mainly the viewpoints we get, most people in society view scholarly arts as feminine and how it plays more into how people view male scholars and not necessarily the gender fluidity of her scholar friends
Jasnah and Hoid seem a lot like Thom and Moiraine in WoT in the sense that it seems like it happens more because of a plot reason (getting Moiraine back) than for a real relationship that develops along, and which is not very satisfying as a relationship.
I think I've been getting better about less complaining about Show and Tell! That said I do wonder if people click off this video because it is quite a long sequence in this one. But indeed, I am predisposed to like what Jess says, haha :) -Eric
@@17thShard I actually never mind ever since we have tags. I rewatch these A LOT and often, on my first listen, I skip. On rewatches, I actually enjoy the show-and-tell. It humanises you all...😂😂😂
I wonder...and it's only a wonder. But what if Jasnah was a Kandra. In her book right near the end in the flash backs we see 11 year old Jasnah in the dark room gets killed/eaten and this whole time she has been a Kandra. That is why her mother says she distanced herself from her after that and seemed like a different person etc. Just a thought
I think Jasnah's utilitarianism could be put to the test with Hoid. Remember he said "If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so." This could happen in book 10 or book 5 (my bet is on book 10). Hoid will be trying to work against Odium (likely) and the choice will likely be to burn Roshar or condemn the Cosmere to a seemingly endless war (Aka Mistborn Era 4).
This doesn't come from me (and to the person who suggested this, if this was your idea, please put me in my place!!!), but considering how much Gavilar understood the Cosmere at the time, (mistborn reference incoming) do you think he might have been trying to get Jasnah to "snap" during her "illness"? It would explain the 'people you love can hurt you' idea and why she was out for so long. I think it is worth investigating. Again, this is NOT my original thought. I gathered it up from somewhere and I don't remember where. Don't come for me, I'm flakey.
my personal read on jasnah's sexuality given RoW is that she's ace/aro unless you're more cosmere-aware than her and then those labels aren't as restrictive
I’ll be honest I’m shocked to discover that people are so invested Jasnah’s sexuality, but I’ll toss in my 2 cents for the discussion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ She’s always read to me like a sapiosexual virgin who has spent the vast majority of her life suppressing her baser passions. She seems indifferent to the person’s sex but since on Roshar the women are scholars shes more drawn to them, & typically views men more as taking pride in being uneducated therefore less worthy of her time, interest, or romantic attraction. She partly idolizes her father, & later Dalinor because they eventually seemed to shirk the mold & took a ready interest in the gathering of knowledge for instance. Hoid is one of the first people she is closer to as an intellectual peer & while I wouldn’t have shipped them ahead of time I am interested to see where Brandon takes this angle. Their relationship, while more awkward feeling, reads similarly to my own experience losing my virginity to later in life to a loved but much more experienced partner; the small testings to see what causes interest or gets Jasnah to let her guard down, & we have seen quite plainly that she has no problem setting boundaries so this doesn’t seem to be something shes opposed to, but this just feels more foreign & less unwanted or abhorred to her. Edit: typo
Couldn't Jasnah be into both Men and Women in the context? She is with Hoid in RoW but that's doesn't necessarily mean she is only hetero leaning? I may have missed something but yeah
23:30 As a herald can return at will, there is no point in murdering them. You cannot use that to rule out that she would, if it worked. And she must know that they'll eventually break. 38:00 No. Most Skybreakers would have exterminated them as well. You cannot put that on utilitarianism. No difference to the training at the Purelake. Even a Windrunner couldn't have let them live. 47:00 She does not do it for power. He opposed her political goals. Her reign is not aimed at short term power. If it were, she'd follow Dalinar's advice. 51:30 Well, no, that is slightly wrong. Every execution is premeditated. The ugly thing is that she used human lives for a lesson. 58:00 Scadrial is richer. You need money to be able to put people into prison and pay people to guard them. Lacking that money you need to sell them into slavery, as the Alethi do. 1:19:00 She was the crown princess. One does not simply permanently lock up somebody politically so valuable. 1:42:30 Relationship? What makes you so sure that Jasnah would not use all and every means to get Hoid under control? 1:50:00 She is an Alethi woman. They are nice to nobody. 1:57:30 Hoid is thousands of years old and from another planet. I wouldn't be sure he'd mentally still qualifies as human. And Jasnah could also be seen as the human half of a symbiontic life form. She has been at the 4th oath for years most likely. She is also Alethi. 2:09:00 They are both highly intellectual and not above playing people. You have to reckon that they may playing power games with each other and some levels of indirection. And there is another component. Hoid is a Mistborn. That trait is heritable. 2:17:30 We have that dialogue between Hoid and Frost
For me, the main problem with the Lesson is that it doesn't fix anything. Killing individual criminals doesn't address the wider issues, which is something Jasnah could have influenced, powerful as she was in Vorin politics. It highly diminishes the good the act would be doing. In other words, Marashi should definitely come in
I really doubt it was Gavilar because of how much she loved and respected him, I don’t think this would’ve been the case if he had personally locked someone in a room for long periods of time I firmly believe that her lunacy has to do with cultivation, especially the way everyone has forgotten it, also I firmly believe cultivation is behind everything, I think she probably has to do with kaladin s weird wind powers in some way(unless he is a splinter), I think she spoke to evie and manipulated dalinar and more stuff Maybe cultivation induced a psychotic episode
I definitely agree that cultivation is behind everything, but I doubt she has the power to do things like that to people without their consent or entering her power, otherwise she could have influenced lift, dalinar, and taravangian without them needing to come to her
@@kylechong1655 but she can literally erase the memories of consent having been given and in addition I don’t see why it would be required for them to go to the nightwatcher, it’s probably just that she knew they were gonna come to the nightwatcher and waited, like imagine she shows up to like 11 year old jasnah asks if she wants to play a game she says yea and then suddenly jasnah starts to lose it
I kind of interpreted that "everyone else has forgotten it" more as them just not caring enough to discuss it, or actively trying to avoid talking about it, more than literal amnesia. (Like them gaslighting her.) Like one might say "oh, I forgot all about that" in a real life conversation, when really, that very sentence implies that they know exactly what the topic is.
I have a big question I can't find the answer to -- has there already been consideration of the possibility that one of the other Shards we know of is a composite of two, like Harmony?
On Jasnah’s queerness…I think B-Sand is unsettling is on purpose. I think the intention is to make us take pause…There is something about Wit and Jasnah’s relationship that is supposed to unsettle us…
Jasnah`s scene with Hoid at the end I read it completely different There is a part in which Jasnah thinks to herself something along the lines of "why does he push so much for romance doesn`t he understand that what we have goes beyond that?" And I read it as *her knowing that she is ace but not having the label* for it. And well even in our world the ace community has only recently been included into the LGBT+ colective precisely because it was not very well understood. And so I think Brandon is trying to have Jasnah go through that journey. So that she eventually can say: "hey Hoid I like you as a friend but I`m really not interested in any relationship beyond that... with anybody" At least that was my interpretation of that scene. Jasnah either needs to understand that she doesn`t owe a relationship to anyone or someone needs to tell her that thats an option. (Was it mentioned that they had sex? As far as I remember Hoid was pushing towards it because he is basically a D&D Bard but I can`t recall any mention of them actually having done the deed)
The asexual community existed alongside the other queer identities in the 60s! Worth investigating. The words we use to describe these identities are RELATIVELY recent in terms of human history, but that doesn't mean the actual experience is new.
Beyond the issues I have with Hoid being portrayed as a stereotypical 2 dimensional D&D bard in the books (As I thought before now he had a really cool and 3D character that imo conflicts with this), I'd have to go reread the scene, but appreciate your differing interpretation on her thinking. I feel like that's more in line with how Jasnah would think... My only issue is that she started the books not thinking she owed a relationship to anyone... So her having to deal with all that stuff now would imo have to be justified a lot before we can go through that arc... and I don't think that arc was justified at all. Jasnah has always been cool before now with being her own thing and doing what she wants, not what society tells her. I don't know why she'd change off screen...
@@Monkeyman5733 My thinking on that would be that she is now a Queen. Before she never had to worry about those things because Elhokar was the King. So she was free to do whatever. Now she feels the responsability. And we know she cares because she went through the trouble of fighting in Shardplate but without using Surgebinding to appeal to her troops and show she was worthy of being their queen. So maybe she also feels the responsability to provide "stability" to her reign by having an heir? She´ll probably end up adopting some street urchin or something but for now she is figuring it all out
@@ChBrahm if we make the assumption that she feels she needs an heir, i like your idea and definitely think the adoption route would be the one I'd appreciate more... and while I don't personally believe the version of Jasnah in my head would care about having an heir as there are other family members the throne could go to, I think that's a believable enough reason I guess. Lol
With respect to Hoid and Jasnah being off: Hoid has emotional allomancy. What if he is manipulating Jasnah? She has something he wants and not just sex. He wants to have input on what deal Dalinar strikes with Odium/Rayse. Maybe manipulating a bondsmith is hard, or maybe he's just sending more time around Jasnah. If he rioted her trust and affection, he could get his advice into the contract. What he didn't expect was that he would end up clearing up her misandry (at least with respect to him specifically) enough for her to try manipulating him with an offer of sex. That could explain why the whole thing is so stilted and un-natural. Because it's actually not natural.
Could gavilar have just been trying to return radiants, i.e. traumatise your kid so she can bond a spren? Bit dark, he'd probably just use other people
For anyone thinking that Jasnah and Hoid are a thing when you’d have rather her been into ladies-many queer ladies discover their queerness only after an unsatisfactory relationship with a man. I wouldn’t lose faith in Brandon just yet…she could just be questioning it now, yes even as late as her 30s (or later!) would be valid. Also interesting and inline with her character so far.
IMHO I think Jasnah would without question pull through with genociding all singers for the survival of humanity (mainly her family) if there had not been another option in capturing the heralds (reforming the oathpact) or now with anti light (killing the fused and odium potentially). Suggesting otherwise would entail her breaking with her utilitarianism, which is something she has so far only done for family members and I sincerely doubt she would have the same empathy for an entirely different species.
Trigger warning: So based on alot of the things you detailed. What if her mental illness at 11 was actually a result of her being sexually assaulted and not believed? It would fit with her hostility towards men yet still be straight or maybe bi.
This was a really cool episode! And I changed in some things respecting this character (which didn't happen with the Moash episode). Anyway this episode was really great. I'm going to express my (obviously personal) thoughts about Jasnah which are... complicated. And probably is going to be long so yeah... I don't really like Jasnah. I don't dislike her, not by a long shot, I'm just neutral about her. That makes me worried about back give tbh. I love all the other 4 characters so that is a relief but seeing all the focus that the front characters in Stormlight Era 1 have had, it makes me worry that I will have to spend that much time with a character I don't really buy for the first time. But let's talk about, what do I think of Jasnah? Well, to make some clear things first, I relate to Jasnah in a lot of things. I like her scholar vein a LOT and her devotion to her family is so cool to me. And personally, I'm a Truthtwatcher and that is close of Elsecallers which is neat (I also have a part Elsecaller though, and a part Skybreaker, which will be relevant later). Furthermore, even though Jasnah falls into the neutral category for me, she is by far one of the most interesting characters right now, and delving into her views of the world is going to be fascinating. And to add more, I love some moments of Jasnah like she and Renarin in Oathbringer or her relationship with Shallan specially in WoR. What is wrong with Jasnah for me then? Several things. First off, she is mean. And yeah, it's justifiable in the way that she needs that to survive in the society she lives in and all that, but sometimes she is really rude and man I don't like that. Like, for example, one of the key moments were I realized I didn't care about her was her reunion with Shallan in Oathbringer. I waited SO LONG for them to reunite, because their bond in WoR was so cool. And what happens? Jasnah says something rude to Shallan and sends she to study, even undermining the things she went through on her own. I didn't even need a hug but that felt damn disappointing. And I like when she is rude to some people like the human garbage that is Amatam (he doesn't deserve to have his name written right), but acting all the time like you are a superior being, even though is probably an overstatement, is not fun to me, which leads me to my second point. Her morals... I don't feel comfortable with them. I'm kind of utilitarian myself sometimes, but a heavily watered down version of them (I'm too emotional for that), so I understand what she means oftenly. But that is no excuse to, IMO, think you have the best way to decide what's best to everyone. Like I often think that she thinks that her opinion is absolute and doesn't leaves room for being wrong, and I don't like that (shockingly, her religious beliefs are not like that, which is weird to me, but as a chatolic person, seeing an atheist character that doesn't talk down to religious people is a godsent so I won't complain about that). But what this reminds me is of Nale, that does the wrong thing again and again and doesn't think he is wrong and that makes him a villain (that's why Skybreakers are such a weird group. I kinda want to see a Skybreaker that admits they may not have the absolute truth in everything, instead of trying to impose their personal law). And I absolutely love the comparison between Jasnah and Taravangian because I think is spot on. And I want to see in back five how Jasnah sees the big villain use a philosophy that is similar to hers and then think about that. Taravangian seems like a perfect foil for both Dalinar and Jasnah which is great. (Kind of off topic but I love Taravangian so freaking much. Like, he is a conniving filthy worm and such a horrible person and he is amazing and by far one of my favorite villains ever. He rules xD) I also wanted to add that I like Jasnah and Hoid as a couple. They are not my favorite couple ever but they seem cute together. I personally always read Jasnah as interested in women, but then I was proved worng and I was like oh Ok that makes sense I think. But what I mean is I see Hoid and Jasnah as a cute relationship because I see it as that Jasnah sees Hoid as the single person that understands her, her desire for knowledge and her desire of wanting to live in a way that is not superficial, and sees Hoid as someone who she can tell everything. And Hoid likes Jasnah because as being immortal he is oftenly bored with the interactions with people that don't have his understanding of the Cosmere, but Jasnah is not that. Also they have sex, don't see it as a big deal but I am not asexual so that's probably the reason. But idk they felt cute I think they are a nice couple. In conclusion, I like some things about Jasnah, like her relationships with other people and the fascinating she is, but her straight up rudeness and her morals that make me go like yikes.... Those things make that I don't really like her that much. Of course feel free to disagree this is 100% my opinion. And also sorry for the English since it's not my first language. Great episode!!!!
As someone who has edited the Jasnah article on the Coppermind: good choice of topic. (I added the Surge of Transportation.) I'd love to see Jasnah talk to Khriss some day. Then again, I'd love to see almost any character chat with Khriss. But especially Jasnah. As a straight cis male, I find the Jasnah/Hoid relationship utterly unconvincing, and Jasnah's meditation on her indifference to physical affection weirdly poorly written. EDIT: Is it worth mentioning that "lunacy" literally means "affected by the moon"? Which of Roshar's three moons affected Jasnah?
I think Jasnah and Hoid are romantic because she’s going to surprise Taravangian later on and make the illogical choice to save Hoid later on; and logic would not be enough motivation and would be something Taravangian could always second guess. His weakness is addiction to his own intellect and letting it override his emotional understanding.
What if Hoid was using Allomancy on Jasnah?? Maybe not all the time but at the beginning? During sex? Again...makes him more of a "Skeevy" character, which I don't want to be the case. But I'm just mentioning it to "cross it off the list"
Why don't this ppl consider that Jasnah is *actually awfull* ? Really disgusting character. The other characters complete the mission for her while she was "dead", and she shows up talking as she owned the place and everyone in the room. Sending Kaladin to scout like she did? Killing Heralds just like that? Those atitudes could *easily* be the downfall of Roshar
About her Relationship with Hoid. Coming from a cis-het guy... I never read Jasnah as queer. Just not interested in relationships... But those scenes with Hoid were strange as fuck. It doesn't seem like Brandon writing them. It was awkward. I felt cringe. Someone commented finding funny the "red hearing" of people in world thinking they were in a relationship. I had the same experience. In my mind they were spending time together strategizing and debating the war. There was no need to include the romantic relationship. It adds nothing to the book. It makes no sense for her character. What is Brandon plan here? Maybe he wants Jasnah child in the backhalf and needs to introduce some sort of romantic relationship now to justify?
When it comes to Jasnah and utilitarianism she does not just focus on the numbers and does take the time to look at each option very carefully we can see this with how she deals with Ruthar. Is any person perfect of course not but I would say that when it comes to decision making it would be hard pressed to find fault with her choices. When it comes to Jasnah's sexuality particularly her being hinted at being attracted to women and not men, we know that she admires peoples mind's the most and when it comes to the culture of the Alethi the scholars are primarily women and the men who are scholars are ardents who call her a heretic or worse people like Amaram. So it would make sense how she would not consider men interesting or smart enough to be a good partner to her. Hoid however is very intellectual compared to everyone in the cosmere even more so to the system of Roshar. So overall it would make sense to why she is in a relationship with him.
Eric, I am super curious relating to the conversation about theism and atheism, with you as a math guy: do you think numbers, like π and 2, and e are real, or are they just like, tricks that work for us?
I think Jasnah is great as a well-written character books 1-3. My issue with her as a person is she seems to think the ends justify the means. In this episode, you talked about how that's not completely true because she spared Renarin... but I feel like that makes her a worse person. She only thinks the ends justify the means if those means don't hurt her personally. However, I think her character completely broke down in the 4th book. First, abolishing slavery (which might have been end of book 3, I don't remember) doesn't make any sense for her character. Having slaves is really good for the wealthy, like Jasnah, who can then use that wealth to fight Odium. It would make more sense for Dalinar to want to get rid of slavery, which IIRC he did in Uruthiru, and just be uncertain about how to do it while not having society crumble. He and Kaladin should have been pressuring Jasnah to do it, with her eventually either choosing to fight a different battle or her genuinly saying no and we have to deal with the ramifications. As someone who's Ace and on the Aro spectrum, I read her as 100% ace and aro... or at least ace and wasn't interested in relationships. I was really upset she ended up being in one. If it was with a girl, I could have gotten over it... but with a guy? No. Based on her character books 1-3, I genuinely refuse to acknowledge that relationship is in the books. If Brandon just acted like that never happened in the next book I'd be happy. The book makes it seem that both parties are trying to "use" the other, and that really bothers me. I would totally get Jasnah trying to "use" others so she could succeed in her goals, but not by compromising herself. That's not her! If she was willing to do that, she'd have married Amaram or someone else long ago. Lastly... Hoid?? That's not inline with how I read Hoid as well. Personally, I read Hoid as Ace. Some of that is probably just me really liking Hoid so assuming he's more like me, but seriously. He doesn't need to act so desperate for sex. That really undermined my interpretation of him as a character as well. Keep them as friendly rivals like they were at the end of book 2!!! That was great! And it fit both characters so well! They can be on the same side, but Jasnah should always see him as a source to exploit, because that's her character! Turning that into a romantic/non-romantic thing I found really disturbing.
For your first point, I think freeing the slaves matches up perfectly well with her character. She even explains in the book WHY she doesn't think it would hinder their war efforts. Namely, that chaotic times are a great opportunity for change, because the Brightlords have too many other distractions on their plate, plus they can all see that it isn't a great time to try for a rebellion. Jasnah's character is heavily focused on the fact that she APPEARS cold-hearted, and on showcasing that appearance isn't everything. (Mannerisms =/= belief system) She's always been the most open-minded about changing society in a way that would bridge privilege-gaps, (she was writing texts about women's equality) so it isn't such a great leap to me, that she would focus on an even more major equality disparity, now that she feels like she finally has the means to do so. I really appreciated that Dalinar stayed true to his character, and was pessimistic about freeing the slaves. Not only has it been made abundantly clear that he BELIEVES in the system (and just wants some minor changes), but he also wouldn't have needed to wait for Jasnah to be in power, if he had actually wanted to make those kinds of changes. In fact, it would have been much easier for him to pressure Elhokar into doing anything, than pressuring Jasnah. Dalinar bought Sadeas' bridgemen because he owed his life to Kaladin, and felt like he needed to repay him to preserve his honor. He didn't free the bridgemen out of sheer humanitarianism. His original plan wasn't even to save all of Sadeas' bridgemen. He specifically promised Kaladin to save the ones on his own bridgecrew, and the wounded he had at his barrack. He only asked to buy all the others, once it became clear he'd have to trade his Shardblade. At that point, he decided he might as well get the most value he could out of the trade. He was fully aware that Sadeas would simply replace those bridgemen. Even once he implemented a system where he controlled the High Princes' battle schedules, he never once attempted to regulate the use of bridgemen. Regulating the use of bridgemen, would have been much less intrusive to the Lighteyes, than outlawing slavery altogether. But he didn't even do that. Because he simply didn't care enough. (Of course, he would have preferred if they weren't used that way, but human rights just didn't make it onto the list of his top priorities.) I don't remember getting Kaladin's input on the topic - neither disapproval nor agreement. (Correct me if I'm wrong. It's a long book and I might have simply forgotten.) I think that was a smart move on Brandon's part. I'm not the biggest fan of Kaladin, so to me it would seem perfectly in line with his character to let Dalinar convince him that "now is not the time" for that kind of change. Writing that canonically in the text would obviously have enraged the fans, so Brandon chose to just not mention it at all. Kaladin, at this point in the story, has become a bit too enamored with the Kholins, and too forgiving of the oppression their government perpetuates.
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Kaladin: Windrunners and Skybreakers are natural enemies. Like Windrunners and Dustbringers. Or Windrunners and Elsecallers. Or Windrunners and Windrunners! Damn Windrunners they ruined Roshar!
I study ethical theory (with an emphasis on utilitarianism) and my favourite character is Kaladin, so the interactions between Jasnah and Kal are always super captivating for me.
Jasnah's philosophy is potentially one of the most honest representations of classical utilitarianism I've seen in fiction. Her lesson in WoK with the thieves is a wonderful scene. I'm excited for her book, I want to spend more time inside her head
I think we're getting the Szeth book next tbh, but I wouldnt complain if a Jasnah one is actually next
On the topic of Jasnah/Hoid. I always read Jasnah as not only Ace, but also Aromantic, and Jasnah's relationship with Hoid really reads a lot like how some of my relationships as an Aro person have gone. There's not much difference between a close friend and a partner for me, and I get that from Jasnah's POV. The other thing is that is just seems like another part of her life where Jasnah is getting what she wants from Hoid (cosmere knowledge) by using what tools she has available.
I was surprised how much they all agreed on their opinions about Hoid x Jasnah. I knew some people disliked it, but I didn't know the opinion was quite this widespread. I was expecting some people on the podcast to argue for, and others against it.
As an as an asexual who's in a hetero relationship that's not **perfect,* I really liked that relationship between them. I even went and read it to my husband lol.
I don't disagree with the things they found problematic, I just think it's okay to depict a relationship that hasn't yet reached the "happy end" phase. They're still learning how to do this. My husband has the same trouble as Hoid with wrapping his mind around the idea of asexuality. It's not that we've never talked about it, it's just that some things are very ingrained, and the default mindset is hard to just switch off.
Ace?
@@ThreiasFB shorthand for Asexual.
@@animalobsessed1 I can't imagine a problem with Hoid and Jasnah. He's the precise kind of person that would intellectually stimulate her, and she's enormously practical. If sleeping with Hoid grants her more access to information, it's an easy choice.
I really thought that the Jasnah/Hoid relationship wasn't something that either of them were expecting. I don't think Jasnah had spent a lot of time thinking about a relationship with anyone. But I did definitely think she was not at all interested in men
The smile on Argent's face! This is definitely the character podcast we've all been waiting for.
And I even behaved myself!
Re: Jasnah's Sexuality;
I didn't want to make a big deal out of this in the "Queerness in the Cosmere" episode because I do agree with Shannon and Alyx's perspective to a large extent, but the way y'all have been explaining your critiques of Jasnah's relationship with Hoid has been rubbing me the wrong way in ways I find difficult to properly articulate. So fair warning, this may be kind of ramble-y only for me to arrive at a conclusion that appears to be the same, but I feel the distinction - however slight - is actually relevant.
For relevant context: I am asexual and biromantic.
As seems to have been the case for the majority of queer readers, I read Jasnah as definitely being queer before RoW came out, but unlike Shannon and Alyx, I did not necessarily peg her as WLW. Based on my own experiences with asexuality, she seemed to fit the general mold of a- or homo- or potentially even bi- sexual and/or romantic. For me personally, I really don't feel like Brandon set the expectation that Jasnah *wasn't* heteroromantic, I merely feel like he set the exception that she *was* queer. And those two things are not contradictory.
I think this is ultimately where my biggest problem with your arguments come from. To me, it comes across as if you are saying that Jasnah isn't "queer enough" or something along those lines.
2:13:32 is the most relevant portion of the discussion to this point. Shannon says about Brandon that he is unwilling to write a queer character, but the character she's talking about is canonically asexual. She is queer.
This argument feels particularly dissonant to me because Shannon also identifies as ace and I have absolutely no doubt that this wasn't the message she intended to send with her argument, but it's nonetheless the one that comes across to me each time she talks about it. It feels dismissive of the queerness of heteroromantic ace people to imply that a character of that orientation isn't "queer enough" and that the reason a person would write a character of this orientation is because they're unwilling to write an "actually" queer character.
Again: I know this isn't what Shannon meant, it's just the way her argument has come across to me each time she's tried explaining it.
The reason I was reluctant to bring this up in the "Queerness" episode though, is because all of the above does does not mean I think Jasnah's sexuality has been handled perfectly. While she is one of my favorite characters and I see a lot of the way I experience asexuality in her, I do ultimately agree that the specific execution of her relationship with Hoid was done poorly. Not necessarily because Brandon doesn't understand what sexuality he's written his characters to have, nor even because Hoid and Jasnah are necessarily a bad romantic pairing, but merely because Brandon doesn't yet know enough about asexuality to realize his blind spots in writing ace relationships.
Ultimately, I agree that - based on the interactions we've seen between them - Jasnah and Hoid are much better as friends than as romantic partners. My hope is that in future books, Jasnah either comes to realize her understanding of her orientation wasn't quite complete and accurate and the two split because of that while remaining on good terms, or at least that the reason's Jasnah continues to engage in the relationship are better explored to better reflect the experiences and feeling of ace people. Your conversation about their relationship feeling transactional is something I completely agree with and I think that whole scene reveals the fact that Brandon still has trouble understanding why ace people could be interested in relationships. I think the distinction of "this relationship feels wrong because Brandon isn't committing to making the character queer" and "this relationship feels wrong because Brandon doesn't quite know how to write a queer character" is a really relevant one despite how similar they may seem.
The former is a fundamental problem, but the latter is one where the only way to improve is by making mistakes initially. And Brandon has gone through this same process a few times with other types of representation: Adien was honestly pretty poor autism representation, but that stumble was necessary for us to eventually get Steris. Similarly, as Brandon has talked about a few times, making Vin the only woman in Kelseir's crew was an oversight that he didn't notice until it was pointed out to him, and is something he's actively worked to improve upon over the years as well.
So contrary to Shannon, that scene doesn't ruin my trust that Brandon will handle queer characters better in the future; on the contrary - given his track record with other similar issues - the fact that he was willing to make this mistake gives me more confidence that he'll learn from this and seek to avoid this mistake again in the future.
Side note: while I do wholeheartedly agree that Brandon is good at accidentally writing queer characters, but then struggles when he's trying to intentionally write queerness, I feel the point at 2:15:46 is an exception to that. Brandon has said before (see WoB number 3388) that his original inspiration for Singers was a culture where asexuality was the norm and sexuality was the exception. Venli and Rlain expressing themselves in ways that you relate to as an ace person is very much the intention there.
All this is not to say I disliked this episode or even the specific arguments that Shannon (and to a lesser extent, Alyx) were making. I agreed with y'all about 99% of what you had to say here. It's just that the 1% where I disagree that I feel warranted some form of rebuttal. I hope all this didn't come across as too confrontational, I've really struggled with finding a way to articulate my thoughts on the matter.
Nice to meet a fellow asexual biromantic in the wild! :) You are correct that asexuality is enough for queer identity. I am very cognizant of what I was saying in the queerness ep perhaps more than this one, where I was careful to emphasize that Jasnah's aceness already makes her queer. And in this one, I like to think I was fairly clear about Jasnah's aceness being the queer experience that Brandon just didn't land. I'm sorry the way I also used the word "queer" as shorthand for being sapphic wasn't clear enough while I was speaking. It was an emotional moment, and not using the exact correct word for in the heat of the moment is something I'm giving myself grace for.
@@greywatch9365 Yeah, I completely understand all that. As I said, I knew that you didn't actually mean it in that way, but despite that knowledge it's still something I couldn't help but feel every time you used the word "queer" in that way. In many ways this comment here was built out of me trying to articulate my emotional response to an argument that I knew you weren't intending to make.
I apologize for rambling on for so long, and I hope I didn't come across as too critical of you. Like I said, I agreed with the vast majority of what you had to say on the topic. Thank you for the reply!
I find it funny because I had never before heard that people used to think Jasnah would be into women. Although I have a boatload of queer friends, only one of them is asexual. I had this moment when I was reading WoR that I just thought "you know that sounds a lot like what John... Wait a minute...". Much later on when Navani started to talk about "the weird relationship" between her and Hoid I was just like "well it sure sounds like an asexual person who really likes someone else who got a crush on them..." It's kind of shocking for me to realize how few people thought of Jasnah that way, but then I remember that out of the enormous list of queer people I know (and ever since I realized I'm bi I have been to _a lot_ of meetings specifically with other queer people), a single one of them was asexual.
Had I not been so close friends with that one example I know of it, I imagine I might not have thought of Jasnah being asexual either.
I read Jasnah's bewilderment at Shallan being "beholden to someone, particularly a man" more in terms of feminism rather than WLW.
Jasnah is someone who doesn't fit into the status quo and eschews gender norms (outside of covering her safe hand) and is constantly doing "battle" with the men of her day who try to box her into a woman's place.
Even her being harsher with men, I read as being a parallel to some expressions of feminism in the modern day as well.
I always also read it that her as a scholar most of the time she doesn't give a fuck about men who, lets remember, most of them do not even know to read cause its a "womanly art". So most men interactions, outside of her family that she loves, are not going to give her much to her eyes: she is not going to get an interesting debate out of them and most likely it will end up in them trying to woo her and she beinh an ace its not of interest to her either
The being chained to a man quote they said many times in the episode to me it read "being chained to someone uneducated", like, so boring and annoying and wasteful to her eyes! I found the relationship with Hoid weird, but i can understand that in the intellectual department its probably stimulating the right stuff to her
Not to mention that Jasnah's personal experience with betrothal is fucking _Amaram._ She probably expected Shallan, without having met her cousin, to react to the proposal the same way she reacted when Gavilar tried to push her off to Amaram.
One thing that was missed on the debate about her killing the man in the alley. Is she wasn't just trying to do good. She also wanted "revenge" on the rapists. - "[...]Besides, men like those…” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before." - “You don’t know that. I sincerely wanted those men gone. A careless barmaid walking home the wrong way cannot protect herself, but I can. And I will.”
And that ties to my theory on what happened to Jasnah when she was a child. I think Amaram raped Jasnah... she told Gavilar, and he instead of losing an ally, simply told her to keep quiet. And when she didn't... locked her up as insane.
I thought Brandon has specifically denied this when asked about it...? Or is my mind just getting a bunch of things jumbled up?
Jasnah didn't MAKE those men attack her. Blaming her for "causing" the situation is akin to saying a woman who is assaulted was "asking for it" because of how she dressed.
Context: I'm an aromantic man who has no interest in relationships. I'm also an atheist.
I always read Jasnah as not being interested in relationships - possibly because she's aro or just because it would involve having to conform to societal norms that she disliked. Her scene with Shallan where she was bewildered about the marriage was very relatable to me - especially because it was an arranged marriage with a man Shallan hadn't even met yet.
When the rumors in RoW about Jasnah and Hoid came up, I assumed them to be overblown gossip. I wasn't super invested into Jasnah's sexual or romantic orientation, so I didn't actively hate it, but the her scene with Hoid did seem weird to me as well.
Also, Jasnah is not the only atheist in the books. Kaladin is another, and probably the most common type you'd find in today's Europe: people who grow up with religion as something other people do and who generally don't spend much time thinking about it. Jasnah is different because of the highly religious environment she grew up in. She has a lot more detailed knowledge and well thought out opinions about religion, because her environment forced her to constantly justify her stance. Kaladin (just as me) has the privilege to just being able to live his life without facing much pressure. He doesn't care, because nobody is forcing him to care.
Yeah, Brandon describes Kaladin as agnostic but he definitely comes off more as atheist-agnostic since he was on the "What God would allow this kind of suffering to happen" train for a while and now that he's aware that Honor is dead and has a general idea of how the shards are, he doesn't do Dalinar's thing of assuming there's a God beyond them
Jasnah and Hoid. In a relationship.
Well, it seems I am the only one who found it natural to occur, once Hoid started to open up..
Look at this perspective..
Jasnah is the foremost scholar of Roshar. It's foremost genius. And a woman. The natural attraction occurs only to someone who is atleast equal or better than her.
Now, who can make her feel that he/she is her equal or even her superior? Of all the characters, I can only come up with one, and that's Hoid.
But it's not just the understanding or the knowledge. It's also how much of an enigma he is. How he manages to manipulate everyone. Offcourse it would excite her to know someone like that, and not just that, but also go one step ahead and feel romantic towards it.
Several times in rythm of war, she says it in her mind that what she is ready to give him is so much more than physical attraction or involvement. To her, her attraction at cognitive level and considering him a partner and discuss things with him as an equal, and confidence her secrets, and even except him not giving her a lot of secrets.. And she not minding it.. It all suggests that she is really into him.
As for Hoid, he has wandered the cosmere, met dragons and different races and beings. He knows what he has in Jasnah...
The way he behaves.. He is offcourse manipulative, but also appears genuinely attracted to her..
So, to me, it felt actually plausible, possible and even probable that they would fall in love. But it was dependent on Hoid opening up.
So... on the note of basically every radiant having some level of mental challenge they are working through... It kind of hit me as an oddly exact parallel to secret history where it was easier for Ruin/Kelsier to reach into peoples minds if they were already crazy. Perhaps this is almost a prerequisite to being a radiant more than just spren preference. perhaps it is quite literally the only way a spren could make first contact out of the blue. It wouldn't have to be the rule going forward as Radients have squires, because the spren will already have an in via the other radiant spren already bonded.
This actually explains a lot. I've been wondering how people without mental illness (like Lopen) can get Radiant powers, when it's pretty much stated that "cracks in the soul" are necessary to let the magic in. It also made no sense why all of our main Radiant characters just ~happened to have mental illness, AND be the first Radiants of their orders. (Or at least, without having connections to other Radiants of their orders.)
Using those people as a sort of gateway just to get access to the wider variety of people in the Physical Realm, would be a logical explanation.
This has been confirmed. A damaged spirit web is FAR easier to Invest than an untouched web. “Snapping” from the Mistborn books illustrate this particularly well, in that to access allomantic powers, one must have endured some kind of harrowing experience in the form of a particularly brutal beating or the like.
About Jasnah's "lunacy"... What if what she thought of was literally what happened? What if _she_ remembers this crazy event in her childhood, but everyone else legitimately has absolutely no recollection of it?
I was thinking about it because, well, true, this has only been mentioned two times, one was Jasnah herself and the other was one of the memories Dalinar recovered from Cultivation... What if, when healing Dalinar of the holes she put into his mind, Cultivation accidentally also fixed something else that has put a similar hole in all of the Kholin's brains?
Grey your points about the justice system and power imbalance were spot on. Love that this is how you view it.
What if this death rattle is referencing Jasnah and how far she is willing to go with her beliefs?
"I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw."
Love the new logos!
Very excited for this one, thanks for all your hard work and investigation 17th shard members.
About Jasnah and Hoid -
I think both of them likely have trouble feeling strong attachment to each other. Hoid knows he needs to stay relatively disconnected from those on Roshar, since, as WOBs have stated, Hoid would give up everyone on Roshar if it meant Odium was contained. Hoid and Jasnah are not necessarily aligned, unless Jasnah is much more strictly Utilitarian than we think, so Hoid likely knows he needs to keep some kind of walls up between them if he wants to remain in a relationship. I don't think any relationship between these two would be 100% open or clear - but that's not saying it wouldn't be realistic for it to happen knowing the backgrounds of both characters.
Hoid is bored with life to the point that he has to monologue about art and sneak weird poetic meter into his conversations to stay stimulated (the kind of thing Jasnah would be one of the only people, at least on this plain Hoid happens to have a strong interest in at the moment, to pick up on). Jasnah doesn't feel anyone on Roshar besides the veristitilians (maybe) is her intellectual equal, and is actively searching for information that Hoid has. Despite the fact that Hoid seems to want a more traditional sexual/romantic relationship and Jasnah doesn't seem to be invested in that sort of thing, I don't imagine that that stood between them in terms of getting together and - pardon the phrasing - brain banging all day. It's stated in the text that that intellectual stimulation is why Jasnah is attracted to Hoid, and that seems valid. I think some of her distant feeling can be attributed to what she just went through in the battle in that scene, though admittedly this could've been a more average scene of the two together to establish the relationship.
I agree that the lack of communication about sex is something that seems off here, but there's the strong possibility that Jasnah is more indifferent to the activity rather than repulsed by it, and that Hoid doesn't really "Get" asexuality. Hoid's seen a lot of uncommon people, but he's also seen a looooot of the average over the thousands of years he's been alive - I think it's probably just as likely that he'd assume she's the same as not. I imagine he still defaults to "Everyone feels some kind of sexual mojo, I just have to find her 'thing' " (hence the hand kissing). Meanwhile, Jasnah may be annoyed by it at times, but clearly doesn't hate it.
I think it's a mixture of Hoid wanting to find some way of making Jasnah happy in that manner, since he's a bit of a people pleaser, and Jasnah being generally indifferent to it. It could even be an intellectual argument in the same vein as Jasnah's atheism: She hasn't felt those sorts of feelings yet, but that doesn't mean they're impossible and she's willing to let Hoid experiment, since it seems to please him at least, and she likes keeping him around for the aforementioned brain banging.
This could be a mis (or over) reading, but I genuinely kind of liked Jasnah and Hoid's spooky little brain bangin relationship. I'm not ace (my partner is), so if anyone who is wants to correct me on anything in here, or clarify something I'm misunderstanding, feel free.
Popping in here to say I agree with pretty much everything you say here and that nothing says that this relationship between Jasnah and Hoid is good or will continue to work. It could be extremely unhealthy and this is foreshadowing for something to come or like you said she could be letting Hoid do his thing because she sees this as the best chance to get information out of him.
I think the shock at shallan not being terrified of being married to a man could be from jasnah noticing shallans appreciation for women
As someone who is demisexual, the relationship with hoid makes sense to me. She mentions how appealing his mind is and how that makes them equals. It's not man vs woman is just the mind she is attracted too
Jasnah is just wonderful
My take on Jasnah's trauma/lunacy, is that they are linked, even if tangentially. Based on my own reactions to trauma and subsequent stress-induced episodes, it isn't farfetched to imagine she experienced a violation of her body/trust as a child, and was either locked up in either a response to her lunacy/to force compliance out of her, or the stress of the event, caused her mind to unravel.
And perhaps she can't trust her own mind, because maybe the nature of her trauma(s) were not believed, or they were fuzzy and disjointed, as she recalled them.
From my experience, sudden changes in children, and a distrust of caregivers means that something terrible has happened.
Keeping up with the culture and counter-culture in Stormlight is a full time job
I just want to say everyone looks extra great on the podcast today. Really like wow.
1:17:17 I always thought that the person who locked her up was Navani and not Gavilar. Not only does this part talk about Jasnah's change but also the coldness that Jasnah returned Navani afterwards. In Jasnah's chapter where she thinks about it she talks of how the people she loved could hurt her and my feeling was that Gavilar was never into the details of raising their children. (Spoiler for SA 5 Prologue) They didn't occupy much of his mind as he attempted to become a Herald and was more than willing to cut off close familial connections.
I kinda wished Brandon made Hoid ace too. He feel so far removed from common humanity in terms of age and experience that any sort of romantic sexual or even romantic relationship just feels kinda weird to me. Flirting yes, but not to sexual/romantic goals in mind. It would make the relationship between him and jasnah feel so much better if it was solely an intellectual bond
Yeah that was my thought too
While I somewhat agree with you, I think this can be a very dangerous thing because of how easy it would be to mis-write. You don't want to imply that allossxuality is a fundamental part of being human or that asexual people are "broken" or "less human" because of it, which could be a very easy thing to imply using your logic here
I always read Hoid as Ace... not because he's inherently ace, but because I can't see him being attracted to anyone sexually or romantically to anyone else. They can't match him, he will just always be their superior in most things. Magic, age, intellect, etc. Personally, I take issue to the idea of Jasnah being on his level of intellect. She's a genius. Hoid is a Genius with a millennia of experience. That makes Hoid's genius worlds ahead of Jasnah's.
Personally, I had an idea in my head that he may or may not have had a relationship back towards the beginning of his life, but that would have been the only time he could have an equal. Due to that he should currently be presented as ace regardless of whether he actually is or not.
I've seen a lot of complaints about asexual characters frequently being the ones you wouldn't want to date anyway. The aliens, the robots, the immortals. As someone else said, it paints asexuality as "less human" and can really backfire for the asexual community. So I don't think an asexual Hoid would have gone over well.
I have a feeling that Jasnah's lunacy is related to Gavilar Shenanigans. I don't know how early Gavilar was involved with the Sons of Honor, but we know they had some relation to the Envisagers.
Perhaps before he was in the Sons of Honor proper, Gavilar was an Envisager. And perhaps he tried to "snap" Jasnah into surgebinding the way Teft described his family doing.
Don't really have any proof, but it was a thought that crossed my mind.
I'm just throwing this out here.... but grey is looking 💥💥💥💥
Ahaha, thank you
I got to say, it only feels like jesnah and hoid got together for very important plot reasons that will come into play later, because otherwise it feels incredibly random and out of place
This is 100% how it feels to me
I think the situation around Jasnahs lunacy and how “no one remembers” is a supernatural thing. I’m wondering if literally no one remembers it. Whether by someone we don’t know that was involved or by Gavilar and Co.
Can’t wait for 17th shard to get to 17k subs.
1:32:00 I read that scene as her having assumed that Shallan was gay and she was surprised by her own misconception. Idk. I think people read a little too deep into it.
I could see that
I've been looking everywhere for someone to talk about Jasnah and Autonomy and I can't find it.
To me it seems pretty clear that (knowingly or not) she is an agent of Autonomy on Roshar. She's a strongly independent character who rejects many aspects of established society and forges her own path. She seeks to not let others define who she is and encourages others to do the same. Even the way she cares for her family by protecting them herself without involving them shows a desire to be independent even from those she cares for. In a world full of religion, she's an atheist. In a land full of kings, she becomes queen. She defies the status quo at every turn. One could even interpret the line about "being beholden to another, particularly a man" as discomfort at the idea of losing her autonomy.
In Autonomy's letter to Hoid she says "we care not for his prison" and she is "pleased with our domains" but we know from Scadriel that this isn't true. She's constantly trying to expand her influence and doesn't at all mind intruding on other shards worlds. Trell was a ploy thousands of years in the making, it makes sense that Autonomy would have subtle seeds on Roshar while pretending to not care.
My guess is that Jasnah's childhood trauma was influenced by Autonomy in some way and that made her into the person she is.
Maybe its just my bias as I read all of Mistborn era 2 before starting Stormlight so I was prepped to look for a connection but I swear Jasnah even had a direct line about Autonomy in Rhythm of War. I listened to it in audiobook format so I can't easily find the quote (part of why I was looking for someone to talk about this). Of course all of this could just be a consequence of trying to simply write an independent character and reading too much into things. However, I've been trained by Brandon's work to never ignore the small details.
I love this, what a fascinating idea. This would be a really cool connection. Jasnah really does embody the idea of autonomy and independence.
I had a look at my ebook - is this the Rhythm of War quote you're thinking of?
"Jasnah took comfort in the idea that there was no plan, that everything was random. She said that a chaotic universe meant the only actions of actual importance were the ones they decided were important. That gave people autonomy."
Not a capital A unfortunately but doesn't mean that there's nothing there.
I really like the way you outlined this and tied things together - it's a well crafted theory, imo. - Jessie
@@17thShard Yup that was the quote! Thanks for finding that so quick, I've been trying to find it for days!
No capital A but still stands out to me. Its in chapter 102 from Navani's point of view as she's reflecting on her faith. Not as good as directly from Jasnah's perspective but we can see that Jasnah has expressed, at least to her mother, that she would rather place her faith in people's autonomy instead of a traditional god of Roshar.
Seeing Jessie here again reminded me: Did she get her muffins/cupcakes/Idon'tactuallyrememberwhattheywere?!
Ah so you’re the reason Eric’s currently baking :P
@@JessietheSleepyKoala Please let us know how it went! Or at least let me know, I don't think anyone else cares as much as I do!
Also let me know if I AM the reason. That would make my day 🤣
Can confirm they are delicious and now I can’t stop eating them
@@17thShard And this saga is officially closed! Thanks, Jessie and Eric, for putting up with my dumb questions 😛
Would she have killed the person if it hadn't been Renarin? I think its a fair possibility, had it not been a family member, she would've killed them.
I completely agree with this interpretation. It's why I hate her and think she was an amazingly written character before Brandon tried to make her "good" rather than "morally grey".
@@Monkeyman5733 I mean that still makes her morally grey.
The idea of Jasnah’s making an alliance like the one with Hoid to gain something (or vice versa) is an interesting topic to explore, provided he explores it…
I think with Jasnahs relationships and identity we are growing with her. She’s finding who she is and what she feels. Maybe she was defined but now she’s changing. I think her reaction to shallans arranged marriage was pretty forward and modern day
As an Ace-spectrum person, I fully relate to Jasnah in the horrified to be married to a man thing. I don’t really see people sexually, so the idea of men is just more objective haha (like their tendency to cause a physical threat to women, etc). I also find that relationships do feel oddly transactional to me. I will defend Brandon making her Ace because we need that representation, it’s the only one I’ve ever really seen.
So Hoid wasn't listening to another's feelings re: Jasnah, eh.
What a shock.
And Jasnah wasn't listening to Hoid's needs, what a shock.
Jasnah sought a Platonic relationship, not a perverted one.
I would really love if in book 5 jasnah amd hoid were like "hey so we tried this romance rhing and it's not the right thing but we still like each other as people" and emd up being besties not in a relationship.
Honestly, argents hair and beard melding together give me Lezian vibes
i‘m a bit late here, but there‘s one other thing that really rubbes me the wrong way with jasnah/hoid: hoid has said (if I remember correctly) that he would destroy roshar if that meant to imprison odium. he would sacrifice the planet and everyone on it for the sake of the cosmere. why then does he start a relationship with someone on roshar? could this be intentional (from brandon) to have hoid struggle with his decisions? or is it just a coincidence that hoid‘s main motivation on roshar (destroy/imprison/stop odium) may dirrectly be a problem for this new relationship?
IIRC, there was a WOB where Brandon stated that as of the events of stormlight archive, Hoid IS stuck on Roshar himself (this is probably related to Design, but maybe not). So when he says that he would be willing to destroy roshar if that was necessary to imprison Odium, he is in the same vein saying he is willing to screw himself over to imprison Odium. And if he is willing to screw himself over to imprison Odium, it's not that weird that he's willing to screw over other people he personally cares about/loves for the same result.
@@tudornaconecinii3609 that makes sense.. :-)
In the lift chapter nail only does uses paperwork, because that's the law in those lands.
When talking about Jasnah and her group of scholar friends I think it's important to remember that this isn't our world try to put ourselves in the perspective of how, at least mainly the viewpoints we get, most people in society view scholarly arts as feminine and how it plays more into how people view male scholars and not necessarily the gender fluidity of her scholar friends
Thank you for sharing, Grey...
EVGENI
Thank you for bringing the Blue Label
So was the Blue Label :P
Jasnah and Hoid seem a lot like Thom and Moiraine in WoT in the sense that it seems like it happens more because of a plot reason (getting Moiraine back) than for a real relationship that develops along, and which is not very satisfying as a relationship.
Anyone notice that chaos doesn't complain when LL does show and tell?
I think I've been getting better about less complaining about Show and Tell! That said I do wonder if people click off this video because it is quite a long sequence in this one. But indeed, I am predisposed to like what Jess says, haha :) -Eric
I’m leading the way in the fight for show and tell freedom, where we can show off random crap without any barriers in our way.
@@17thShard I actually never mind ever since we have tags. I rewatch these A LOT and often, on my first listen, I skip. On rewatches, I actually enjoy the show-and-tell. It humanises you all...😂😂😂
@@JessietheSleepyKoala I loved watch chaos squirm when argent talked about his wiskey for 5 minutes. I for one think he shouldn't change.
Heh very understandable. :D See, IMO Argent should he sharing his whiskeys but I GUESS living on opposite coasts is a valid reason not to.
I didn’t like the Hoid Jasnah relationship until I read Dragonsteel and The Way of Kings prime, which I know are both not canon but still.
Evgeni is the fun drunk and I LOVE THAT!!!
Oh no, I am a violent drunk, that's why I don't get drunk :D
I wonder...and it's only a wonder. But what if Jasnah was a Kandra. In her book right near the end in the flash backs we see 11 year old Jasnah in the dark room gets killed/eaten and this whole time she has been a Kandra.
That is why her mother says she distanced herself from her after that and seemed like a different person etc.
Just a thought
I think Jasnah's utilitarianism could be put to the test with Hoid.
Remember he said "If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so." This could happen in book 10 or book 5 (my bet is on book 10). Hoid will be trying to work against Odium (likely) and the choice will likely be to burn Roshar or condemn the Cosmere to a seemingly endless war (Aka Mistborn Era 4).
This doesn't come from me (and to the person who suggested this, if this was your idea, please put me in my place!!!), but considering how much Gavilar understood the Cosmere at the time, (mistborn reference incoming) do you think he might have been trying to get Jasnah to "snap" during her "illness"? It would explain the 'people you love can hurt you' idea and why she was out for so long. I think it is worth investigating.
Again, this is NOT my original thought. I gathered it up from somewhere and I don't remember where. Don't come for me, I'm flakey.
I found the title to book 6 guys! It’s title “Therapy with Hoid 101”
my personal read on jasnah's sexuality given RoW is that she's ace/aro unless you're more cosmere-aware than her and then those labels aren't as restrictive
I’ll be honest I’m shocked to discover that people are so invested Jasnah’s sexuality, but I’ll toss in my 2 cents for the discussion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ She’s always read to me like a sapiosexual virgin who has spent the vast majority of her life suppressing her baser passions. She seems indifferent to the person’s sex but since on Roshar the women are scholars shes more drawn to them, & typically views men more as taking pride in being uneducated therefore less worthy of her time, interest, or romantic attraction. She partly idolizes her father, & later Dalinor because they eventually seemed to shirk the mold & took a ready interest in the gathering of knowledge for instance.
Hoid is one of the first people she is closer to as an intellectual peer & while I wouldn’t have shipped them ahead of time I am interested to see where Brandon takes this angle. Their relationship, while more awkward feeling, reads similarly to my own experience losing my virginity to later in life to a loved but much more experienced partner; the small testings to see what causes interest or gets Jasnah to let her guard down, & we have seen quite plainly that she has no problem setting boundaries so this doesn’t seem to be something shes opposed to, but this just feels more foreign & less unwanted or abhorred to her.
Edit: typo
Couldn't Jasnah be into both Men and Women in the context? She is with Hoid in RoW but that's doesn't necessarily mean she is only hetero leaning? I may have missed something but yeah
23:30 As a herald can return at will, there is no point in murdering them. You cannot use that to rule out that she would, if it worked. And she must know that they'll eventually break.
38:00 No. Most Skybreakers would have exterminated them as well. You cannot put that on utilitarianism. No difference to the training at the Purelake. Even a Windrunner couldn't have let them live.
47:00 She does not do it for power. He opposed her political goals. Her reign is not aimed at short term power. If it were, she'd follow Dalinar's advice.
51:30 Well, no, that is slightly wrong. Every execution is premeditated. The ugly thing is that she used human lives for a lesson.
58:00 Scadrial is richer. You need money to be able to put people into prison and pay people to guard them. Lacking that money you need to sell them into slavery, as the Alethi do.
1:19:00 She was the crown princess. One does not simply permanently lock up somebody politically so valuable.
1:42:30 Relationship? What makes you so sure that Jasnah would not use all and every means to get Hoid under control?
1:50:00 She is an Alethi woman. They are nice to nobody.
1:57:30 Hoid is thousands of years old and from another planet. I wouldn't be sure he'd mentally still qualifies as human. And Jasnah could also be seen as the human half of a symbiontic life form. She has been at the 4th oath for years most likely. She is also Alethi.
2:09:00 They are both highly intellectual and not above playing people. You have to reckon that they may playing power games with each other and some levels of indirection. And there is another component. Hoid is a Mistborn. That trait is heritable.
2:17:30 We have that dialogue between Hoid and Frost
Engaging engagement
For me, the main problem with the Lesson is that it doesn't fix anything. Killing individual criminals doesn't address the wider issues, which is something Jasnah could have influenced, powerful as she was in Vorin politics. It highly diminishes the good the act would be doing. In other words, Marashi should definitely come in
Very interesting conversations!
I really doubt it was Gavilar because of how much she loved and respected him, I don’t think this would’ve been the case if he had personally locked someone in a room for long periods of time
I firmly believe that her lunacy has to do with cultivation, especially the way everyone has forgotten it, also I firmly believe cultivation is behind everything, I think she probably has to do with kaladin s weird wind powers in some way(unless he is a splinter), I think she spoke to evie and manipulated dalinar and more stuff
Maybe cultivation induced a psychotic episode
I definitely agree that cultivation is behind everything, but I doubt she has the power to do things like that to people without their consent or entering her power, otherwise she could have influenced lift, dalinar, and taravangian without them needing to come to her
@@kylechong1655 but she can literally erase the memories of consent having been given and in addition I don’t see why it would be required for them to go to the nightwatcher, it’s probably just that she knew they were gonna come to the nightwatcher and waited, like imagine she shows up to like 11 year old jasnah asks if she wants to play a game she says yea and then suddenly jasnah starts to lose it
I kind of interpreted that "everyone else has forgotten it" more as them just not caring enough to discuss it, or actively trying to avoid talking about it, more than literal amnesia. (Like them gaslighting her.)
Like one might say "oh, I forgot all about that" in a real life conversation, when really, that very sentence implies that they know exactly what the topic is.
I have a big question I can't find the answer to -- has there already been consideration of the possibility that one of the other Shards we know of is a composite of two, like Harmony?
On Jasnah’s queerness…I think B-Sand is unsettling is on purpose. I think the intention is to make us take pause…There is something about Wit and Jasnah’s relationship that is supposed to unsettle us…
Jasnah`s scene with Hoid at the end I read it completely different
There is a part in which Jasnah thinks to herself something along the lines of "why does he push so much for romance doesn`t he understand that what we have goes beyond that?"
And I read it as *her knowing that she is ace but not having the label* for it. And well even in our world the ace community has only recently been included into the LGBT+ colective precisely because it was not very well understood.
And so I think Brandon is trying to have Jasnah go through that journey. So that she eventually can say: "hey Hoid I like you as a friend but I`m really not interested in any relationship beyond that... with anybody" At least that was my interpretation of that scene. Jasnah either needs to understand that she doesn`t owe a relationship to anyone or someone needs to tell her that thats an option.
(Was it mentioned that they had sex? As far as I remember Hoid was pushing towards it because he is basically a D&D Bard but I can`t recall any mention of them actually having done the deed)
The asexual community existed alongside the other queer identities in the 60s! Worth investigating. The words we use to describe these identities are RELATIVELY recent in terms of human history, but that doesn't mean the actual experience is new.
@@greywatch9365 yeah... thats what I meant.
Beyond the issues I have with Hoid being portrayed as a stereotypical 2 dimensional D&D bard in the books (As I thought before now he had a really cool and 3D character that imo conflicts with this), I'd have to go reread the scene, but appreciate your differing interpretation on her thinking. I feel like that's more in line with how Jasnah would think... My only issue is that she started the books not thinking she owed a relationship to anyone... So her having to deal with all that stuff now would imo have to be justified a lot before we can go through that arc... and I don't think that arc was justified at all. Jasnah has always been cool before now with being her own thing and doing what she wants, not what society tells her. I don't know why she'd change off screen...
@@Monkeyman5733 My thinking on that would be that she is now a Queen. Before she never had to worry about those things because Elhokar was the King. So she was free to do whatever.
Now she feels the responsability. And we know she cares because she went through the trouble of fighting in Shardplate but without using Surgebinding to appeal to her troops and show she was worthy of being their queen. So maybe she also feels the responsability to provide "stability" to her reign by having an heir? She´ll probably end up adopting some street urchin or something but for now she is figuring it all out
@@ChBrahm if we make the assumption that she feels she needs an heir, i like your idea and definitely think the adoption route would be the one I'd appreciate more... and while I don't personally believe the version of Jasnah in my head would care about having an heir as there are other family members the throne could go to, I think that's a believable enough reason I guess. Lol
With respect to Hoid and Jasnah being off:
Hoid has emotional allomancy. What if he is manipulating Jasnah? She has something he wants and not just sex. He wants to have input on what deal Dalinar strikes with Odium/Rayse. Maybe manipulating a bondsmith is hard, or maybe he's just sending more time around Jasnah. If he rioted her trust and affection, he could get his advice into the contract. What he didn't expect was that he would end up clearing up her misandry (at least with respect to him specifically) enough for her to try manipulating him with an offer of sex. That could explain why the whole thing is so stilted and un-natural. Because it's actually not natural.
That's an interesting thought... But imo I think it would be easier to manipulate Dalinar. Sadeas did, and I think Hoid could do better than Sadeas.
Jasnah when baby champion happens: KILL THE BABY
really appreciate Shannon’s perspective
Could gavilar have just been trying to return radiants, i.e. traumatise your kid so she can bond a spren? Bit dark, he'd probably just use other people
For anyone thinking that Jasnah and Hoid are a thing when you’d have rather her been into ladies-many queer ladies discover their queerness only after an unsatisfactory relationship with a man. I wouldn’t lose faith in Brandon just yet…she could just be questioning it now, yes even as late as her 30s (or later!) would be valid. Also interesting and inline with her character so far.
Wax does what Janah does in the lesson like 8 times a book
This is hilarious. So true. -Eric
More Jasnah.
I honestly think we needed one more cork sound
Other than that it was a perfect episode
Appreciate it guys
The new logos look awesome
IMHO I think Jasnah would without question pull through with genociding all singers for the survival of humanity (mainly her family) if there had not been another option in capturing the heralds (reforming the oathpact) or now with anti light (killing the fused and odium potentially). Suggesting otherwise would entail her breaking with her utilitarianism, which is something she has so far only done for family members and I sincerely doubt she would have the same empathy for an entirely different species.
Trigger warning: So based on alot of the things you detailed. What if her mental illness at 11 was actually a result of her being sexually assaulted and not believed? It would fit with her hostility towards men yet still be straight or maybe bi.
New logo who dis
This was a really cool episode! And I changed in some things respecting this character (which didn't happen with the Moash episode). Anyway this episode was really great. I'm going to express my (obviously personal) thoughts about Jasnah which are... complicated. And probably is going to be long so yeah...
I don't really like Jasnah. I don't dislike her, not by a long shot, I'm just neutral about her. That makes me worried about back give tbh. I love all the other 4 characters so that is a relief but seeing all the focus that the front characters in Stormlight Era 1 have had, it makes me worry that I will have to spend that much time with a character I don't really buy for the first time. But let's talk about, what do I think of Jasnah?
Well, to make some clear things first, I relate to Jasnah in a lot of things. I like her scholar vein a LOT and her devotion to her family is so cool to me. And personally, I'm a Truthtwatcher and that is close of Elsecallers which is neat (I also have a part Elsecaller though, and a part Skybreaker, which will be relevant later). Furthermore, even though Jasnah falls into the neutral category for me, she is by far one of the most interesting characters right now, and delving into her views of the world is going to be fascinating. And to add more, I love some moments of Jasnah like she and Renarin in Oathbringer or her relationship with Shallan specially in WoR. What is wrong with Jasnah for me then? Several things.
First off, she is mean. And yeah, it's justifiable in the way that she needs that to survive in the society she lives in and all that, but sometimes she is really rude and man I don't like that. Like, for example, one of the key moments were I realized I didn't care about her was her reunion with Shallan in Oathbringer. I waited SO LONG for them to reunite, because their bond in WoR was so cool. And what happens? Jasnah says something rude to Shallan and sends she to study, even undermining the things she went through on her own. I didn't even need a hug but that felt damn disappointing. And I like when she is rude to some people like the human garbage that is Amatam (he doesn't deserve to have his name written right), but acting all the time like you are a superior being, even though is probably an overstatement, is not fun to me, which leads me to my second point.
Her morals... I don't feel comfortable with them. I'm kind of utilitarian myself sometimes, but a heavily watered down version of them (I'm too emotional for that), so I understand what she means oftenly. But that is no excuse to, IMO, think you have the best way to decide what's best to everyone. Like I often think that she thinks that her opinion is absolute and doesn't leaves room for being wrong, and I don't like that (shockingly, her religious beliefs are not like that, which is weird to me, but as a chatolic person, seeing an atheist character that doesn't talk down to religious people is a godsent so I won't complain about that). But what this reminds me is of Nale, that does the wrong thing again and again and doesn't think he is wrong and that makes him a villain (that's why Skybreakers are such a weird group. I kinda want to see a Skybreaker that admits they may not have the absolute truth in everything, instead of trying to impose their personal law). And I absolutely love the comparison between Jasnah and Taravangian because I think is spot on. And I want to see in back five how Jasnah sees the big villain use a philosophy that is similar to hers and then think about that. Taravangian seems like a perfect foil for both Dalinar and Jasnah which is great.
(Kind of off topic but I love Taravangian so freaking much. Like, he is a conniving filthy worm and such a horrible person and he is amazing and by far one of my favorite villains ever. He rules xD)
I also wanted to add that I like Jasnah and Hoid as a couple. They are not my favorite couple ever but they seem cute together. I personally always read Jasnah as interested in women, but then I was proved worng and I was like oh Ok that makes sense I think. But what I mean is I see Hoid and Jasnah as a cute relationship because I see it as that Jasnah sees Hoid as the single person that understands her, her desire for knowledge and her desire of wanting to live in a way that is not superficial, and sees Hoid as someone who she can tell everything. And Hoid likes Jasnah because as being immortal he is oftenly bored with the interactions with people that don't have his understanding of the Cosmere, but Jasnah is not that. Also they have sex, don't see it as a big deal but I am not asexual so that's probably the reason. But idk they felt cute I think they are a nice couple.
In conclusion, I like some things about Jasnah, like her relationships with other people and the fascinating she is, but her straight up rudeness and her morals that make me go like yikes.... Those things make that I don't really like her that much. Of course feel free to disagree this is 100% my opinion. And also sorry for the English since it's not my first language. Great episode!!!!
As someone who has edited the Jasnah article on the Coppermind: good choice of topic. (I added the Surge of Transportation.)
I'd love to see Jasnah talk to Khriss some day. Then again, I'd love to see almost any character chat with Khriss. But especially Jasnah.
As a straight cis male, I find the Jasnah/Hoid relationship utterly unconvincing, and Jasnah's meditation on her indifference to physical affection weirdly poorly written.
EDIT: Is it worth mentioning that "lunacy" literally means "affected by the moon"? Which of Roshar's three moons affected Jasnah?
I prefer the cereal without rayse-ins
Taravangi-O’s
You get your wish. The new RoW edition of the cereal (and serial!) removed the Rayse-ins.
I think Jasnah and Hoid are romantic because she’s going to surprise Taravangian later on and make the illogical choice to save Hoid later on; and logic would not be enough motivation and would be something Taravangian could always second guess. His weakness is addiction to his own intellect and letting it override his emotional understanding.
I'm just imagining the comments section on the moash video
Maybe jasnah gave her emotions to odium as a child?
What if Hoid was using Allomancy on Jasnah?? Maybe not all the time but at the beginning? During sex? Again...makes him more of a "Skeevy" character, which I don't want to be the case. But I'm just mentioning it to "cross it off the list"
You all are top notch on this one
The guy or girl who does the episode covers ...keep it up..very good.
2:00:00 I’ll be back! But University calls
Why don't this ppl consider that Jasnah is *actually awfull* ? Really disgusting character.
The other characters complete the mission for her while she was "dead", and she shows up talking as she owned the place and everyone in the room. Sending Kaladin to scout like she did? Killing Heralds just like that? Those atitudes could *easily* be the downfall of Roshar
About her Relationship with Hoid. Coming from a cis-het guy... I never read Jasnah as queer. Just not interested in relationships... But those scenes with Hoid were strange as fuck. It doesn't seem like Brandon writing them. It was awkward. I felt cringe. Someone commented finding funny the "red hearing" of people in world thinking they were in a relationship. I had the same experience. In my mind they were spending time together strategizing and debating the war. There was no need to include the romantic relationship.
It adds nothing to the book. It makes no sense for her character. What is Brandon plan here? Maybe he wants Jasnah child in the backhalf and needs to introduce some sort of romantic relationship now to justify?
1:26:20 Jasnah is Battar confirmed.
New logos very swick, gives me cytoverse vibes
When it comes to Jasnah and utilitarianism she does not just focus on the numbers and does take the time to look at each option very carefully we can see this with how she deals with Ruthar. Is any person perfect of course not but I would say that when it comes to decision making it would be hard pressed to find fault with her choices. When it comes to Jasnah's sexuality particularly her being hinted at being attracted to women and not men, we know that she admires peoples mind's the most and when it comes to the culture of the Alethi the scholars are primarily women and the men who are scholars are ardents who call her a heretic or worse people like Amaram. So it would make sense how she would not consider men interesting or smart enough to be a good partner to her. Hoid however is very intellectual compared to everyone in the cosmere even more so to the system of Roshar. So overall it would make sense to why she is in a relationship with him.
My reading of Jassy K was a gay woman who while not ace was just doing to much cool stuff to do something as boring as sex
Eric, I am super curious relating to the conversation about theism and atheism, with you as a math guy: do you think numbers, like π and 2, and e are real, or are they just like, tricks that work for us?
Numbers are gods confirmed.
@@Colaman112 haha, I was thinking something more like platonic forms but I guess that all relates to what the word "god" means
There are plenty of streets Eric woudn't feel so "privileged" walking down.
But that's not the point. The point is that women need to worry MUCH more about where they walk at night than men. -Eric
*Jasnah* = punisher
I think Jasnah is great as a well-written character books 1-3. My issue with her as a person is she seems to think the ends justify the means. In this episode, you talked about how that's not completely true because she spared Renarin... but I feel like that makes her a worse person. She only thinks the ends justify the means if those means don't hurt her personally. However, I think her character completely broke down in the 4th book.
First, abolishing slavery (which might have been end of book 3, I don't remember) doesn't make any sense for her character. Having slaves is really good for the wealthy, like Jasnah, who can then use that wealth to fight Odium. It would make more sense for Dalinar to want to get rid of slavery, which IIRC he did in Uruthiru, and just be uncertain about how to do it while not having society crumble. He and Kaladin should have been pressuring Jasnah to do it, with her eventually either choosing to fight a different battle or her genuinly saying no and we have to deal with the ramifications.
As someone who's Ace and on the Aro spectrum, I read her as 100% ace and aro... or at least ace and wasn't interested in relationships. I was really upset she ended up being in one. If it was with a girl, I could have gotten over it... but with a guy? No. Based on her character books 1-3, I genuinely refuse to acknowledge that relationship is in the books. If Brandon just acted like that never happened in the next book I'd be happy. The book makes it seem that both parties are trying to "use" the other, and that really bothers me. I would totally get Jasnah trying to "use" others so she could succeed in her goals, but not by compromising herself. That's not her! If she was willing to do that, she'd have married Amaram or someone else long ago. Lastly... Hoid?? That's not inline with how I read Hoid as well. Personally, I read Hoid as Ace. Some of that is probably just me really liking Hoid so assuming he's more like me, but seriously. He doesn't need to act so desperate for sex. That really undermined my interpretation of him as a character as well. Keep them as friendly rivals like they were at the end of book 2!!! That was great! And it fit both characters so well! They can be on the same side, but Jasnah should always see him as a source to exploit, because that's her character! Turning that into a romantic/non-romantic thing I found really disturbing.
For your first point, I think freeing the slaves matches up perfectly well with her character. She even explains in the book WHY she doesn't think it would hinder their war efforts. Namely, that chaotic times are a great opportunity for change, because the Brightlords have too many other distractions on their plate, plus they can all see that it isn't a great time to try for a rebellion.
Jasnah's character is heavily focused on the fact that she APPEARS cold-hearted, and on showcasing that appearance isn't everything. (Mannerisms =/= belief system) She's always been the most open-minded about changing society in a way that would bridge privilege-gaps, (she was writing texts about women's equality) so it isn't such a great leap to me, that she would focus on an even more major equality disparity, now that she feels like she finally has the means to do so.
I really appreciated that Dalinar stayed true to his character, and was pessimistic about freeing the slaves. Not only has it been made abundantly clear that he BELIEVES in the system (and just wants some minor changes), but he also wouldn't have needed to wait for Jasnah to be in power, if he had actually wanted to make those kinds of changes. In fact, it would have been much easier for him to pressure Elhokar into doing anything, than pressuring Jasnah.
Dalinar bought Sadeas' bridgemen because he owed his life to Kaladin, and felt like he needed to repay him to preserve his honor. He didn't free the bridgemen out of sheer humanitarianism. His original plan wasn't even to save all of Sadeas' bridgemen. He specifically promised Kaladin to save the ones on his own bridgecrew, and the wounded he had at his barrack. He only asked to buy all the others, once it became clear he'd have to trade his Shardblade. At that point, he decided he might as well get the most value he could out of the trade. He was fully aware that Sadeas would simply replace those bridgemen. Even once he implemented a system where he controlled the High Princes' battle schedules, he never once attempted to regulate the use of bridgemen. Regulating the use of bridgemen, would have been much less intrusive to the Lighteyes, than outlawing slavery altogether. But he didn't even do that. Because he simply didn't care enough. (Of course, he would have preferred if they weren't used that way, but human rights just didn't make it onto the list of his top priorities.)
I don't remember getting Kaladin's input on the topic - neither disapproval nor agreement. (Correct me if I'm wrong. It's a long book and I might have simply forgotten.) I think that was a smart move on Brandon's part. I'm not the biggest fan of Kaladin, so to me it would seem perfectly in line with his character to let Dalinar convince him that "now is not the time" for that kind of change. Writing that canonically in the text would obviously have enraged the fans, so Brandon chose to just not mention it at all. Kaladin, at this point in the story, has become a bit too enamored with the Kholins, and too forgiving of the oppression their government perpetuates.
I'm just imagining the comments section on the moash video